Re: [issues] Re: [techtalk] Desktop OS?

2001-06-06 Thread James Sutherland

On Tue, 5 Jun 2001, coldfire wrote:

> in response to the idea of bringing linux into the mainstream ... i've
> found that LUG participation focuses in almost all cases primarily on this
> cause.  the majority of time i've spent at lug meetings has been educating
> the new comers to linux or else thinking of ways to invite more people.
>
> one of the most momentous meetings was when a fairly old couple .. not to
> stereotype or anything .. but they were pretty "woodsy" (to refrain from
> the usage of 'redneck') .. initially, my thoughts were oh god .. teaching
> these people is going to be hell.  then they busted in on our conversation
> saying "yeah, we just installed redhat and were wondering ..."  needless
> to say, we were all very impressed and this was also very inspiring.
>
> i believe that more and more people are getting fed up with microsoft ..
> whether it be for the whole anti-trust case, the flaws in the windows
> operating system, or just the hype about a "new" operating system called
> linux.  they here about linux as free, and generally, most people who run
> linux love it .. hence, they run it.  this motivates people to get out and
> experience more.

Linux is one of those things which you love once you try it. Just sitting
someone down in front of a box running KDE and showing them how easy it is
to use helps, but you can't beat getting them using it on their PC for a
couple of days to hammer it home!

On IRC, you can easily identify the Windows users - they disappear for a
couple of minutes, saying "brb - need to reboot". I've never actually seen
a Linux user do that (excepting kernel hackers trying new kernels, of
course!).

Once you get a Windows user running in Linux exclusively for a couple of
days, provided he/she doesn't need any Windows-only apps, 9 out of 10
times they'll be hooked. The most important thing, I think, is to make
sure they don't just grab a RedHat boxed set, fire up the installer, hit a
question they can't answer and give up: do your LUG members go round and
help newbies through the installation if they have problems, then get them
started with Gnome/KDE??

IMO, the ability for the LUG to hand out CDs of $DISTRO with their phone
number on saying "Try this, if you have any problems, just give me a ring"
is one of Linux's greatest assets - Microsoft just can't do that! :-)


James.


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Re: [issues] Re: [techtalk] Desktop OS?

2001-06-06 Thread Martin . Caitlyn


Hi, Abe, and everyone else,

[I'm posting this to issues only, since it's non-technical]

> in response to the idea of bringing linux into the mainstream ... i've
> found that LUG participation focuses in almost all cases primarily on
this
> cause.  the majority of time i've spent at lug meetings has been
educating
> the new comers to linux or else thinking of ways to invite more people.

The local LUG here has a reputation for being incredibly condescending to
newbies, especially women, and just plain rude.  I'm told it's gotten
better since I was involved a couple of years ago, but at that time they
were not exactly good representatives of the community.

Caity




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Re: [issues] Re: [techtalk] Desktop OS?

2001-06-06 Thread coldfire

> The local LUG here has a reputation for being incredibly condescending to
> newbies, especially women, and just plain rude.  I'm told it's gotten
> better since I was involved a couple of years ago, but at that time they
> were not exactly good representatives of the community.

as is the reputation of #linux on efnet.  too many elitests in there for
me ...


abe


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RE: [issues] Re: [techtalk] Desktop OS?

2001-06-06 Thread Martin . Caitlyn


KCB wrote:

> Caitlyn Martin said:

>> I'm going to tackle this from two angles:  First, 90% of computer users
>> can't install *any* operating system.  They buy their system with the OS
>> preinstalled.  This is why getting Linux-based systems into stores is so
>> critical.  IMHO, the semi-savvy non-geeks who actually try to install an
OS
>> are a small fraction of the market, and therefore not vital.


> This bothers me, I guess because I belong to that small fraction that
you're
> dismissing.

Ouch!  I guess I should repost what I said to James once:  English is not
my native language and sometimes things come out way wrong.  I don't mean
to dismiss anyone, and I apologize if I offended you.  I sure didn't mean
to.

You are tremendously important to the community because you want to learn,
and you are the type of person who, if you have a positive experience with
Linux, will likely praise it to other non-geeks.  Non-geeks can say to me,
"Yeah, but you do this for a living."  With someone like you, who can
honestly say you were not a geek when you started with Linux, that
objection disappears.  You are living proof that Linux is for mortals.
Besides, since you're here and you want to learn, we'll make a real geek
out of you yet :)  Seriously, I do not want to underestimate the importance
of people like you.

Having said that, you are part of a group that may not be statistically
significant enough to matter when it comes to mainstreaming an OS.  To
compare, I really enjoy the music of the group Earthstar.  Only one of
their albums was reissued on CD.  I understand it had a run of 500 copies
two years ago, and new copies are still readily available.  The record
company, though, is about out of business.  If someone asks me if I think
their other albums should be reissued, well... of course I'd love to see
that happen.  The problem is, I am statistically insignificant.  How many
people even remember Earthstar, let alone would buy CDs?

> Is it really true that most people can't install an operating
> system?

The estimates I've read are 90% to 95%.  I believe it.

> Of course, I'm trying to remember the last time I might have done
> that without the support of someone who *knows* what to do sitting right
> next to me. I can't. So maybe I can't do it on my own either.

Are you willing to learn?  Does it interest you?  If so, I'd say you are
way ahead of most users.  To me, the fact that you are on a list like this
says your are way more interested than most.

> Right now you can walk
> into a computer store or go to Dell online (not that I recommend this)
and
> buy a computer that comes all preinstalled. All you have to do is follow
the
> color-coded system to plug the keyboard, mouse, and monitor in. That kind
of
> ease of use is what is needed for Linux (sacrilege!) before the average
> computer user will consider it.

It may be sacrilege, but I think you are 100% right.

> I have never, in 12 years of
> working in corporate environments, worked anywhere that didn't use
Windows
> and/or Office. That may have more to do with where I live (Seattle area)
> than anything else, so I'd like to hear if that experience is not usual.

Errr... I have.  Six or eight years ago there were a lot of OS/2 shops out
there.  The US government agency I support still does not use MS Office.
They use the Lotus SmartSuite except for word processing, where we use
Corel WordPerfect.  Most law firms use WordPerfect still, as do most
government contractors (including my employer).  The freight forwarder I
worked for used the Lotus SmartSuite until they were bought out in 1997.
The majority of their apps ran on HP-9000s running HP-UX, and they used
Reflection/X to display them on the Windows desktop.  Again, at the agency
I support, many of the scientists have UNIX workstations, either SGI or
Sun.  A good friend who recommended me for my current job came here from a
shop that used either Linux or Irix on the desktop, not Windows.
Burlington Coat Factory threw Microsoft completely out in 1999 and uses Red
Hat Linux on Dell PCs for their desktop, with ApplixWare as their office
suite.  Racal was studying the same idea last I heard.  Need I go on?

The vast majority of companies do use Windows on the desktop, but I think
with Microsoft's new, greedy licensing scheme for Windows XP, that will
begin to erode rapidly.  Office has been losing market share slowly for the
last two years.  The last numbers I saw had it at 84% (still way dominant),
with Corel up to 15%.

I think right now there is a crack in the mighty Microsoft armor, for two
reasons:  really poor (arrogant) public relations on their part, and the
big one: cost.  Linux has a narrow window of opportunity, much as OS/2 had
in 1994 and 1995.  If IBM hadn't caved into Microsoft blackmail
(threatening to withhold all Windows licenses from Big Blue) and dropped
OS/2 marketing in 1995 the IT world might be different today.  According to
the accounts that came out after the IBM te

Re: [issues] Re: [techtalk] Desktop OS?

2001-06-06 Thread coldfire



> question they can't answer and give up: do your LUG members go round and
> help newbies through the installation if they have problems, then get them
> started with Gnome/KDE??

sure do .. it was always an asset to have my laptop with me at the
meetings to show new desktops or whatever .. like GNOME demonstrations and
how to configure menus etc.  but it was a really good community .. i'm not
a big RTFM advocate and there was little of that.

> IMO, the ability for the LUG to hand out CDs of $DISTRO with their phone
> number on saying "Try this, if you have any problems, just give me a ring"
> is one of Linux's greatest assets - Microsoft just can't do that! :-)

and this was prospected before i left the first LUG i was a member of.
distributing all sorts of software to prevent others from having to
download 600MB of whatever on a dial-up connection.


abe


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