Re: [issues] Good and bad reasons for giving up programming (was games for girls)
> It's a bad reason to give up programming. It wasn't the reason I decided not to go into programming, but it may be part of the reason I stopped dabbling in it. I changed my major from computer science to architecture junior year because I was sick of pulling all-nighters in the computer centers and didn't feel like I was obsessed enough to be a really good programmer. I wanted to do something more creative. Architecture turned out to be a really bad field to graduate in during the early nineties; there were no jobs. I ended up as a draftsperson in a small structural engineering firm (12 people). Since I'm the only one in the office who's really knowledgeable about computers, I'm in charge of them. However, I still don't want to work with them full time. The old reasons for not doing it are still there. Now, I'm working towards becoming a structural engineer. That makes use of my architecture degree, and it's still a technical field. However, it involves more communication and a greater variety of skills. But you're right - I should start programming again. The thing is, what I really want to learn is Mac programming. I want to write programs that involve graphics & 3-D modeling. It's kind of ambitious and I don't know where to start. It's a lot different than the plain Pascal and C I used to use on DOS and MTS. (Sorry if this is off topic) Deidre Calarco Robert Darvas Associates (734) 761-8713 (ext. 16) [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: Engineers and their wives Re: [issues] Re: games for girls
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 10:01 PM Subject: Re: Engineers and their wives Re: [issues] Re: games for girls >Blackjax wrote: >> >> It is not really >> a male vs. female thing, it is a technical vs. non-technical, he has no >> problems I've noticed with respecting women who tend to approach things >> the same way he does. >> Anyway, I'll also say that some people are predisposed to miss this kind >> of behavior (as you pointed out) because I was not aware of it on a >> conscious >> level until it was pointed out to me the first time. > >It's definately not a male/female thing - my parents pointed out to me that >*I* do it (and I'm female) to any non-tech. So now I make a conscious effort >not to - and sometimes wind up being patronising. SIGH. I don't MEAN to! > >Hell, I couldn't /possibly/ do sales work, or admin work.. I'm damn lucky >I live in a time where I can be techie. I'd be lost otherwise. Everyone has >their own skills and weaknesses! > >> It's a hobby of mine. (It would be nice if I could open source me, at times >> the patches from this single developer come pretty slow ;-) ) > >I know the feeling. In all fairness to those of us who do it though, I think this is a much broader issue than just what we see here with tech vs. non-tech people. For example, just try going to some sort of social event with people who involved with or strongly interested in fashion while wearing white socks with black shoes and see if you don't get treated in a very condescending manner. The bottom line is that any group with a strong identity and core of knowledge tends to judge others by the standards of this group. When you are around people who share this knowledge, it raises your estimation of what the minimum and average amount of knowledge on that topic should be. This allows you to edge your way into arrogance and condescension without even noticing it. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Good and bad reasons for giving up programming (was games for girls)
On Thu, 07 Oct 1999 09:01:09 +0800, "Deidre L. Calarco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: >It wasn't the reason I decided not to go into programming, but it may >be part of the reason I stopped dabbling in it. I changed my major >from computer science to architecture junior year because I was sick >of pulling all-nighters in the computer centers and didn't feel like >I was obsessed enough to be a really good programmer. This is a lot of the reason I got out of programming too. I found that it was getting harder and harder for me to get into "the zone" that I needed to be in in order to really program well. For me, though, the issue wasn't creativity, it was a need to do something that "mattered" more than twiddling bits on a computer. >But you're right - I should start programming again. The thing is, >what I really want to learn is Mac programming. I want to write >programs that involve graphics & 3-D modeling. It's kind of >ambitious and I don't know where to start. It's a lot different than >the plain Pascal and C I used to use on DOS and MTS. You might want to look into OpenGL (Mesa) under Linux. I've got this on my list of things to do (but which I never actually get to, sigh). Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Re: games for girls
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Dancer's a much better implementer than I think I could be. But I'm the better > designer! Even with me rusty and him experienced! > (Unless he says it to keep my ego up) No, he probably means it. In my experience it's generally (not *always*) the case that women have better heads for software design. Our work tends to be "cleaner", more structured, more thoughtful, whereas male programming tends to be more haphazard and seat-of-the-pants. This is not to say that female programming is less intuitive - I know my best work comes from inspiration - but the results even then tend to be cleaner. This isn't always true, especially when you get up into the echelons of really good programmers, where gender is a very minor indicator. -- Rachel [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Good and bad reasons for giving up programming (wasgames for girls)
"Deidre L. Calarco" wrote: > But you're right - I should start programming again. The thing is, what I > really want to learn is Mac programming. I want to write programs that > involve graphics & 3-D modeling. Oh, nothing hard then. :-) Seriously, I couldn't... I think the harder skill there would be the maths necessary to handle the geometry, but then if you have architecture training and experience you probably have most of what you need for that. There are a lot of already very good Mac software out there that do this though... Even four years ago in a previous job we (not I personally, I was on the scripting part of the project) modelled an entire Roman town in Strata Studio Pro, for instance. There must be *way* better stuff now, and that was pretty good. -- Rachel [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Good and bad reasons for giving up programming (wasgames for girls)
>"Deidre L. Calarco" wrote: > > But you're right - I should start programming again. The thing is, what I > really want to learn is Mac programming. I want to write programs that > involve graphics & 3-D modeling. Why Mac? It seems to me that if this was the kind of thing you wanted to do, then BeOS would be a better choice. -Cleaner API -Faster more powerful OS -Fewer competitors writing similar software so whatever you write would get more attention. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Good and bad reasons for giving up programming (was games for girls)
Kelly Lynn Martin wrote: > > On Thu, 07 Oct 1999 09:01:09 +0800, "Deidre L. Calarco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > > >It wasn't the reason I decided not to go into programming, but it may > >be part of the reason I stopped dabbling in it. I changed my major > >from computer science to architecture junior year because I was sick > >of pulling all-nighters in the computer centers and didn't feel like > >I was obsessed enough to be a really good programmer. > > This is a lot of the reason I got out of programming too. I found > that it was getting harder and harder for me to get into "the zone" > that I needed to be in in order to really program well. > > For me, though, the issue wasn't creativity, it was a need to do > something that "mattered" more than twiddling bits on a computer. Hmm. I think I may be hitting this stage now. Sometimes I think I can feel myself burning out, and that I should get out and do something completely different. Perhaps I should take the current crisis as a signal to do it - I was hoping to get to a more financially secure position first though. Sometimes I just wonder if I need more interesting programming work to do. I haven't had a project that I feel motivated to pull multiple all-nighters on for ages. -- Rachel [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
RE: [issues] Good and bad reasons for giving up programming (was games for girls)
I coded on and off for 10 years before deciding I was better at analyst/project management stuff. I missed people. I still programm, but it's for me not for them. I also teach part-time. It's a great creative outlet and you get to help others 'get the hang of it'. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Rachel Greenham Sent: Thursday, October 07, 1999 3:21 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [issues] Good and bad reasons for giving up programming (was games for girls) Kelly Lynn Martin wrote: > > On Thu, 07 Oct 1999 09:01:09 +0800, "Deidre L. Calarco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > > >It wasn't the reason I decided not to go into programming, but it may > >be part of the reason I stopped dabbling in it. I changed my major > >from computer science to architecture junior year because I was sick > >of pulling all-nighters in the computer centers and didn't feel like > >I was obsessed enough to be a really good programmer. > > This is a lot of the reason I got out of programming too. I found > that it was getting harder and harder for me to get into "the zone" > that I needed to be in in order to really program well. > > For me, though, the issue wasn't creativity, it was a need to do > something that "mattered" more than twiddling bits on a computer. Hmm. I think I may be hitting this stage now. Sometimes I think I can feel myself burning out, and that I should get out and do something completely different. Perhaps I should take the current crisis as a signal to do it - I was hoping to get to a more financially secure position first though. Sometimes I just wonder if I need more interesting programming work to do. I haven't had a project that I feel motivated to pull multiple all-nighters on for ages. -- Rachel [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Good and bad reasons for giving up programming (wasgames for girls)
> "Deidre L. Calarco" wrote: > >> But you're right - I should start programming again. The thing is, what I >> really want to learn is Mac programming. I want to write programs that >> involve graphics & 3-D modeling. > > Oh, nothing hard then. :-) > > Seriously, I couldn't... I think the harder skill there would be the > maths necessary to handle the geometry, but then if you have > architecture training and experience you probably have most of what you > need for that. There are a lot of already very good Mac software out > there that do this though... Even four years ago in a previous job we > (not I personally, I was on the scripting part of the project) modelled > an entire Roman town in Strata Studio Pro, for instance. There must be > *way* better stuff now, and that was pretty good. > > -- There's good software for architecture and visual modeling, but almost nothing for structural engineers. It's too bad, because the Apple/Motorola hardware is so FAST now. I was thinking in terms of a structural design plug-in for a CAD program. But, yeah, it's probably way out of reach. It's pretty much just a fantasy at this point - not a realistic thing to actually try. I'll probably be writing little programs that design parts of structures - that have the tables and equations for beam, column, and slab design - stuff like that. Even with that, it would be nice to have a visual interface and the ability to create files (probably dxf's) that can be imported into CAD programs. Deidre Calarco Robert Darvas Associates (734) 761-8713 (ext. 16) [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Good and bad reasons for giving up programming (was games for girls)
Rachel Greenham wrote: > > Kelly Lynn Martin wrote: > > For me, though, the issue wasn't creativity, it was a need to do > > something that "mattered" more than twiddling bits on a computer. > > Sometimes I just wonder if I need more > interesting programming work to do. I haven't had a project that I feel > motivated to pull multiple all-nighters on for ages. I think that's the main point. You need to do something that *matters* to you. For Dancer, doing leading-edge stuff in a field - programming which is half research - does the trick. Not for me. For me, the end result has to matter as well. (Of course, at the moment Dancer is working for Schoolsnet, & writing the software that's hooking school students up to the net.. which he believes in .. so he's got both motivations.) For me, it's got to be something I /want/ to do. And I really don't know what my criteria are - I just know I know when I don't have it. Hobby programming - finding something to do just cause you want to do it - can be the trick. Jenn V. -- Humans are the only species to feed and house entirely separate species for no reason other than the pleasure of their company. Why? [EMAIL PROTECTED]Jenn Vespermanhttp://www.simegen.com/~jenn/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Re: games for girls
At 09:56 PM 10/7/99 +0100, Rachel wrote: > >No, he probably means it. In my experience it's generally (not *always*) >the case that women have better heads for software design. Our work >tends to be "cleaner", more structured, more thoughtful, whereas male >programming tends to be more haphazard and seat-of-the-pants. This is >not to say that female programming is less intuitive - I know my best >work comes from inspiration - but the results even then tend to be >cleaner. > >This isn't always true, especially when you get up into the echelons of >really good programmers, where gender is a very minor indicator. > Not completely disagreeing here, but I'm male and not, by any means, a 'really good programmer'. But my code is always neat, and nearly always well-documented. I really don't think it's a male/female thing at all. Just a matter of personality. Walt -~ The impersonal hand of government can never replace the helping hand of a neighbour. Hubert Humphrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Good and bad reasons for giving up programming(wasgames for girls)
"Deidre L. Calarco" wrote: > > I was thinking in terms of a structural design > plug-in for a CAD program. But, yeah, it's probably way out of reach. It's > pretty much just a fantasy at this point - not a realistic thing to actually > try. So start it. Fiddle with the design, fiddle with what you know you'll want. Talk to someone who's run open source projects. Farm out what you /know/ you won't be able to do yourself, and do the rest. There's /always/ people around - people like Dancer - who love wrapping their head around the most experimental, most technical aspects of a program. Design the perfect-for-you structural engineering program. Lay out the bits you know you can do, the bits you want to learn to be able to do. The bits that will bore you but would be perfect for someone else - and there's always /someone/ - and the bits that you don't want to do the research and learning for right now. Write your best specifications for the bits you aren't doing right now, and find out the accepted way to advertise for helpers for open source projects. Don't be disheartened if you don't get what you need right away. You can always wind up posting an almost-complete pre-alpha along with your requests for help. You're almost certain to find a structural engineer who knows someone who can be nagged into it. Or, of course, you might surprise yourself and do it. Jenn V. -- Humans are the only species to feed and house entirely separate species for no reason other than the pleasure of their company. Why? [EMAIL PROTECTED]Jenn Vespermanhttp://www.simegen.com/~jenn/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
