Project rename to "GTK"

[Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-devel-list]

Hi all;

tl;dr: GTK is GTK, not GTK+. The documentation has been updated, and the
pkg-config file for the future 4.0 major release is now called "gtk4"

over the years, we had discussions about removing the "+" from the project
name. The "plus" was added to "GTK" once it was moved out of the GIMP
sources tree and the project gained utilities like GLib and the GTK type
system, in order to distinguish it from the previous, in-tree version. Very
few people are aware of this history, and it's kind of confusing from the
perspective of both newcomers and even expert users; people join the wrong
IRC channel, the URLs on wikis are fairly ugly, etc.

With the move to Git, years ago, we had to add a couple of hacks to allow
for the "plus" to stay in the repository browsing UI; those hacks were
dropped once we moved to GitLab. We discussed again during IRC meetings and
hackfests whether to drop the "plus", and we finally decided to do so.

With the work in the master branch towards the 4.0 release, it's finally
time to say goodbye to the "plus" in "GTK+".

The documentation is updated so that the project in named consistently.

The removal of the plus has a side effect on the name of the pkg-config
file for GTK 4; additionally, since we don't break API across the same
major version, having a fully qualified major.minor version in the
pkg-config file is redundant. This means that the pkg-config file for GTK 4
is going to be called "gtk4".

Incidentally, the IRC channel on irc.gnome.org is now called "#gtk";
there's a re-direct in place, so if you join "#gtk+" you'll end up in the
right place.

Ciao,
 Emmanuele.

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Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-devel-list]

[Cross-posted to various relevant mailing lists; please, reply to
gtk-devel-list]

As part of an attempt at making GTK more friendly to newcomers, I and other
core developers were thinking of moving the mailing lists from the current
mailman installation to Discourse:

  https://discourse.org/

Possibly still hosted on GNOME infrastructure, depending on the
requirements for our sysadmins.

The GTK project would have various sub-topics, mostly around development
with and of GTK. Having a better archive search, a better moderation
system, and a decent web UI are the major selling points for switching to
Discourse. The fact that the project is also open source is neatly aligned
with our values.

Are there any objections? Did somebody already try out Discourse and has
opinions about it that they want to share with the community?

Ciao,
 Emmanuele.
-- 
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[@] ebassi [@gmail.com]
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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Reuben Rissler]

To introduce myself, I only am using Gtk for 3 years, but really like 
the infrastructure / people / open source surrounding Gtk. I am 
sometimes seen as 'theGtknerd'.



On 02/06/2019 06:46 AM, Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-devel-list wrote:


The GTK project would have various sub-topics, mostly around 
development with and of GTK. Having a better archive search, a better 
moderation system, and a decent web UI are the major selling points 
for switching to Discourse. The fact that the project is also open 
source is neatly aligned with our values.
Let me ask a poignant question, was moderation ever a problem with 
mailing lists?


Are there any objections? Did somebody already try out Discourse and 
has opinions about it that they want to share with the community?
I have a computer that is email only for work (no web browser for 
several personal reasons). I could no longer be a part of the Gtk 
responders as far as I can see. Now, I am not objecting, I am just 
stating one scenario to consider before switching.


Ciao,
 Emmanuele.
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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-devel-list]

Hi;

On Wed, 6 Feb 2019 at 13:10, Reuben Rissler  wrote:

>
> To introduce myself, I only am using Gtk for 3 years, but really like
> the infrastructure / people / open source surrounding Gtk. I am
> sometimes seen as 'theGtknerd'.
>
>
> On 02/06/2019 06:46 AM, Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-devel-list wrote:
> >
> > The GTK project would have various sub-topics, mostly around
> > development with and of GTK. Having a better archive search, a better
> > moderation system, and a decent web UI are the major selling points
> > for switching to Discourse. The fact that the project is also open
> > source is neatly aligned with our values.
> Let me ask a poignant question, was moderation ever a problem with
> mailing lists?


As the person that moderates two out of the three GTK mailing lists, yes:
it’s somewhat annoying the amount of spam going on every day. Not terrible,
but it’d be nice not to have to deal with it. Additionally, Discourse would
allow us to deal with code of conduct violations in a much better way than
mailman currently lets us.



> >
> > Are there any objections? Did somebody already try out Discourse and
> > has opinions about it that they want to share with the community?
> I have a computer that is email only for work (no web browser for
> several personal reasons). I could no longer be a part of the Gtk
> responders as far as I can see.


That’s not accurate: Discourse also works with email, so you’d receive
email messages and you’d be able to reply to email messages.

The main differences are that you’d need a different subscription account
than the existing one, and that you wouldn’t have the weekly digests, as
far as I can see.

Ciao,
 Emmanuele.
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[@] ebassi [@gmail.com]
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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Charles Lindsey]

On 06/02/2019 11:46, Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-devel-list wrote:

[Cross-posted to various relevant mailing lists; please, reply to
gtk-devel-list]

As part of an attempt at making GTK more friendly to newcomers, I and other
core developers were thinking of moving the mailing lists from the current
mailman installation to Discourse:

   https://discourse.org/

Possibly still hosted on GNOME infrastructure, depending on the
requirements for our sysadmins.



Are there any objections? Did somebody already try out Discourse and has
opinions about it that they want to share with the community?


Does that mean I have to log in to Discourse every day just to check whether 
some new message has arrived? If so, then no thank you. This is a low volume 
list, often with two or more weeks between messages.


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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-devel-list]

On Wed, 6 Feb 2019 at 15:11, Charles Lindsey  wrote:

>
>
> On 06/02/2019 11:46, Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-devel-list wrote:
> > [Cross-posted to various relevant mailing lists; please, reply to
> > gtk-devel-list]
> >
> > As part of an attempt at making GTK more friendly to newcomers, I and
> other
> > core developers were thinking of moving the mailing lists from the
> current
> > mailman installation to Discourse:
> >
> >https://discourse.org/
> >
> > Possibly still hosted on GNOME infrastructure, depending on the
> > requirements for our sysadmins.
>
> > Are there any objections? Did somebody already try out Discourse and has
> > opinions about it that they want to share with the community?
>
> Does that mean I have to log in to Discourse every day just to check
> whether
> some new message has arrived? If so, then no thank you.


No, you could still get email notifications for messages, and you could
still send email replies; that's supported on Discourse, as you could
easily check on their website.


> This is a low volume
> list, often with two or more weeks between messages.
>

Yes, the *gtk-devel-list* mailing list is low volume, compared to
gtk-app-devel-list and gtk-list. Did you ever wonder why it is? Mostly
because mailing lists are kind of terrible. The idea behind switching to
Discourse is to improve the communication channels available to GTK
developers and users to something more useful than email.

Ciao,
 Emmanuele.

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[@] ebassi [@gmail.com]
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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Paul Davis]

Emmaneule,

at ardour.org, we recently switched from using Drupal forums to Discourse.
The results have been delightful. We managed to get single sign on
integration with our existing site working, which was important for us, but
probably not so much for a GTK Discourse. More notably, once you figure out
how to get the settings right, the integration with email was also a
pleasure. The move has definitely made our forums more active, easier to
manage, nicer to interact with and has also largely solved the spam
problems that we had before, even when we used Mollum. So ... although our
needs and goals were slightly different from yours, I can say that for us,
the move was very successful and we like Discourse very much.

--p


On Wed, Feb 6, 2019 at 4:46 AM Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-list <
gtk-l...@gnome.org> wrote:

> [Cross-posted to various relevant mailing lists; please, reply to
> gtk-devel-list]
>
> As part of an attempt at making GTK more friendly to newcomers, I and
> other core developers were thinking of moving the mailing lists from the
> current mailman installation to Discourse:
>
>   https://discourse.org/
>
> Possibly still hosted on GNOME infrastructure, depending on the
> requirements for our sysadmins.
>
> The GTK project would have various sub-topics, mostly around development
> with and of GTK. Having a better archive search, a better moderation
> system, and a decent web UI are the major selling points for switching to
> Discourse. The fact that the project is also open source is neatly aligned
> with our values.
>
> Are there any objections? Did somebody already try out Discourse and has
> opinions about it that they want to share with the community?
>
> Ciao,
>  Emmanuele.
> --
> https://www.bassi.io
> [@] ebassi [@gmail.com]
> ___
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>
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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-devel-list]

More information on Discourse:

  - About: https://www.discourse.org/about
  - Features: https://www.discourse.org/features

Discourse is a forum software that has multiple ways to access it: web,
native apps, and email. It's not a mailing list software with a web
frontend.

The interesting (to me) parts are:

 - 2FA instead of Mailman's plaintext password
 - real moderation tools, that can scale with the community and encourage
civility and code of conduct compliant behaviour
 - anti-spam measures
 - open source software (kind of a pre-requisite)
 - good UI for reading and replying to topics

The Fedora (Silverblue) and Ubuntu communities already use Discourse, for
instance; the SDL community also does.

Ciao,
 Emmanuele.


On Wed, 6 Feb 2019 at 12:46, Emmanuele Bassi  wrote:

> [Cross-posted to various relevant mailing lists; please, reply to
> gtk-devel-list]
>
> As part of an attempt at making GTK more friendly to newcomers, I and
> other core developers were thinking of moving the mailing lists from the
> current mailman installation to Discourse:
>
>   https://discourse.org/
>
> Possibly still hosted on GNOME infrastructure, depending on the
> requirements for our sysadmins.
>
> The GTK project would have various sub-topics, mostly around development
> with and of GTK. Having a better archive search, a better moderation
> system, and a decent web UI are the major selling points for switching to
> Discourse. The fact that the project is also open source is neatly aligned
> with our values.
>
> Are there any objections? Did somebody already try out Discourse and has
> opinions about it that they want to share with the community?
>
> Ciao,
>  Emmanuele.
> --
> https://www.bassi.io
> [@] ebassi [@gmail.com]
>


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Re: Project rename to "GTK"

[Owen Taylor via gtk-devel-list]

On Wed, Feb 6, 2019 at 5:04 AM Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-devel-list
 wrote:
>
> Hi all;
>
> tl;dr: GTK is GTK, not GTK+. The documentation has been updated, and the 
> pkg-config file for the future 4.0 major release is now called "gtk4"
>
> over the years, we had discussions about removing the "+" from the project 
> name. The "plus" was added to "GTK" once it was moved out of the GIMP sources 
> tree and the project gained utilities like GLib and the GTK type system, in 
> order to distinguish it from the previous, in-tree version. Very few people 
> are aware of this history, and it's kind of confusing from the perspective of 
> both newcomers and even expert users; people join the wrong IRC channel, the 
> URLs on wikis are fairly ugly, etc.

Thanks for moving this along! It's good to see the GTK name finally
get less confusing and easier to talk about!

But to clarify the history, the "+" predates the point when GTK was
moved out of the GIMP tree. Every single version of GTK with publicly
released sources was called GTK+. As I understand it, Peter Mattis
added the + to mark a change from a very early version that was
structured more like Xt/Motif, to a version that had a fuller type
system with inheritance.

Owen
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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Niels De Graef via gtk-devel-list]

Hi all,

I'm very much in favor! Being able to still use e-mail while also
having a convenient and pretty-looking interface is something I look
*really* forward to.

My only question is: what happens to the old archives? Do we keep them
online as-is, or is there a plan to also migrate them? The former
means of course less effort, but the latter would keep everything
unified in one UI for example.
I'm fine with whatever you choose :-)

Thanks in any case for taking this up, Emmanuele!

Cheers,
nielsdg

On Wed, Feb 6, 2019 at 3:42 PM Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-devel-list
 wrote:
>
> More information on Discourse:
>
>   - About: https://www.discourse.org/about
>   - Features: https://www.discourse.org/features
>
> Discourse is a forum software that has multiple ways to access it: web, 
> native apps, and email. It's not a mailing list software with a web frontend.
>
> The interesting (to me) parts are:
>
>  - 2FA instead of Mailman's plaintext password
>  - real moderation tools, that can scale with the community and encourage 
> civility and code of conduct compliant behaviour
>  - anti-spam measures
>  - open source software (kind of a pre-requisite)
>  - good UI for reading and replying to topics
>
> The Fedora (Silverblue) and Ubuntu communities already use Discourse, for 
> instance; the SDL community also does.
>
> Ciao,
>  Emmanuele.
>
>
> On Wed, 6 Feb 2019 at 12:46, Emmanuele Bassi  wrote:
>>
>> [Cross-posted to various relevant mailing lists; please, reply to 
>> gtk-devel-list]
>>
>> As part of an attempt at making GTK more friendly to newcomers, I and other 
>> core developers were thinking of moving the mailing lists from the current 
>> mailman installation to Discourse:
>>
>>   https://discourse.org/
>>
>> Possibly still hosted on GNOME infrastructure, depending on the requirements 
>> for our sysadmins.
>>
>> The GTK project would have various sub-topics, mostly around development 
>> with and of GTK. Having a better archive search, a better moderation system, 
>> and a decent web UI are the major selling points for switching to Discourse. 
>> The fact that the project is also open source is neatly aligned with our 
>> values.
>>
>> Are there any objections? Did somebody already try out Discourse and has 
>> opinions about it that they want to share with the community?
>>
>> Ciao,
>>  Emmanuele.
>> --
>> https://www.bassi.io
>> [@] ebassi [@gmail.com]
>
>
>
> --
> https://www.bassi.io
> [@] ebassi [@gmail.com]
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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Ryan Gonzalez via gtk-devel-list]

As a side note, Python has also opened a Discourse instance (in addition to
their Zulip experiment), and the results have pretty much been positive.
I've also been on Fedora's for quite some time, and it's great.

On Wed, Feb 6, 2019 at 5:46 AM Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-devel-list <
gtk-devel-list@gnome.org> wrote:

> [Cross-posted to various relevant mailing lists; please, reply to
> gtk-devel-list]
>
> As part of an attempt at making GTK more friendly to newcomers, I and
> other core developers were thinking of moving the mailing lists from the
> current mailman installation to Discourse:
>
>   https://discourse.org/
>
> Possibly still hosted on GNOME infrastructure, depending on the
> requirements for our sysadmins.
>
> The GTK project would have various sub-topics, mostly around development
> with and of GTK. Having a better archive search, a better moderation
> system, and a decent web UI are the major selling points for switching to
> Discourse. The fact that the project is also open source is neatly aligned
> with our values.
>
> Are there any objections? Did somebody already try out Discourse and has
> opinions about it that they want to share with the community?
>
> Ciao,
>  Emmanuele.
> --
> https://www.bassi.io
> [@] ebassi [@gmail.com]
> ___
> gtk-devel-list mailing list
> gtk-devel-list@gnome.org
> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-devel-list
>


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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[sri]

On Wed, 2019-02-06 at 12:46 +0100, Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-devel-list
wrote:
> [Cross-posted to various relevant mailing lists; please, reply to
> gtk-devel-list]
> 
> As part of an attempt at making GTK more friendly to newcomers, I and
> other core developers were thinking of moving the mailing lists from
> the current mailman installation to Discourse:

I'm 100% onboard.  I'd like to align this with the rest of the GNOME
mailing list starting with engagement list.  If it is going to be on
the GNOME infrastructure, if there is some opt-in for the other mailing
list that will just help popularize this for the rest of us on the
GNOME infrastructure.

Cheers,
sri

> 
>   https://discourse.org/
> 
> Possibly still hosted on GNOME infrastructure, depending on the
> requirements for our sysadmins.
> 
> The GTK project would have various sub-topics, mostly around
> development with and of GTK. Having a better archive search, a better
> moderation system, and a decent web UI are the major selling points
> for switching to Discourse. The fact that the project is also open
> source is neatly aligned with our values.
> 
> Are there any objections? Did somebody already try out Discourse and
> has opinions about it that they want to share with the community?
> 
> Ciao,
>  Emmanuele.
> -- 
> https://www.bassi.io
> [@] ebassi [@gmail.com]
> ___
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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[makepost]

We already looked at Hyperkitty, and found it fairly limited in
functionality. Avoiding Hyperkitty is what led us to Discourse in the
first place.
Can you link that discussion please? I'm interested what newcomers want 
to do such that Hyperkitty doesn't let. Negatives of Discourse: loads 
slower, broken without evergreen CSS and JS, huge blank margins. Fedora 
uses Hyperkitty on its other, non-Silverblue lists.

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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Ryan Gonzalez via gtk-devel-list]

I know someone who set up HyperKitty, it was a nightmare and still is a
nightmare.

--
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On Wed, Feb 6, 2019, 6:54 PM  wrote:

> > We already looked at Hyperkitty, and found it fairly limited in
> > functionality. Avoiding Hyperkitty is what led us to Discourse in the
> > first place.
> Can you link that discussion please? I'm interested what newcomers want
> to do such that Hyperkitty doesn't let. Negatives of Discourse: loads
> slower, broken without evergreen CSS and JS, huge blank margins. Fedora
> uses Hyperkitty on its other, non-Silverblue lists.
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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[makepost]

I know someone who set up HyperKitty, it was a nightmare


How so? Can you link their blog post? I'm not its user or developer, I 
want to better understand the software choice.

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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Michael Gratton]

On Wed, 6 Feb, 2019 at 10:46 PM, Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-list 
 wrote:
As part of an attempt at making GTK more friendly to newcomers, I and 
other core developers were thinking of moving the mailing lists from 
the current mailman installation to Discourse:


  

Possibly still hosted on GNOME infrastructure, depending on the 
requirements for our sysadmins.


Sounds great! Can we get this for other GNOME projects as well? I'd 
like to use it for Geary.


//Mike

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⚙ 


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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Ryan Gonzalez via gtk-devel-list]

Hmm, unfortunately it was over some scattered IRC messages, I can try and
find them in the logs if you like.

--
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On Wed, Feb 6, 2019, 8:38 PM  wrote:

> > I know someone who set up HyperKitty, it was a nightmare
>
> How so? Can you link their blog post? I'm not its user or developer, I
> want to better understand the software choice.
>
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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Felix Miata via gtk-devel-list]

makep...@firemail.cc composed on 2019-02-07 02:54 (UTC+0200):

>> We already looked at Hyperkitty, and found it fairly limited in
>> functionality. Avoiding Hyperkitty is what led us to Discourse in the
>> first place.

> Can you link that discussion please? I'm interested what newcomers want 
> to do such that Hyperkitty doesn't let. Negatives of Discourse: loads 
> slower, broken without evergreen CSS and JS, huge blank margins. Fedora 
> uses Hyperkitty on its other, non-Silverblue lists.

Hyperkitty made Fedora mailing lists a displeasure, like most of the rest of 
the web, scripts
hiding things that previously were obvious and made inaccessible without 
scripting overhead
enabled, overabundant whitespace, tiny gray text, short lists where 5X as many 
would otherwise fit.
I avoid it as much as possible, trying to get answers from bugzilla.redhat.com 
or IRC or the
archlinux wiki whenever possible instead.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Felix Miata via gtk-devel-list]

Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-devel-list composed on 2019-02-06 12:46 (UTC+0100):

> Are there any objections? Did somebody already try out Discourse and has
> opinions about it that they want to share with the community?

As happened when various mozilla dev mailing lists moved to discourse, I ceased 
having anything to
do with those subjects. The same will happen if gtk mailing lists move to 
discourse. Web sites and
all their CSS and JS interference and bandwidth overhead are no substitute for 
plain legible text
email lists.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Ryan Gonzalez via gtk-devel-list]

As has been mentioned, Discourse allows you to receive and via email, you
would largely only use the web UI to sign up or change your settings.

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Yoko Shimomura, ryo (supercell/EGOIST), Hiroyuki Sawano >> everyone else
https://refi64.com/

On Wed, Feb 6, 2019, 11:25 PM Felix Miata via gtk-devel-list <
gtk-devel-list@gnome.org> wrote:

> Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-devel-list composed on 2019-02-06 12:46 (UTC+0100):
>
> > Are there any objections? Did somebody already try out Discourse and has
> > opinions about it that they want to share with the community?
>
> As happened when various mozilla dev mailing lists moved to discourse, I
> ceased having anything to
> do with those subjects. The same will happen if gtk mailing lists move to
> discourse. Web sites and
> all their CSS and JS interference and bandwidth overhead are no substitute
> for plain legible text
> email lists.
> --
> Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science.
>
>  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
>
> Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/
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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[makepost]

> hiding things that previously were obvious and made inaccessible without 
> scripting overhead
> enabled, overabundant whitespace, tiny gray text, short lists where 5X as 
> many would otherwise fit.

All these points that you make apply to Discourse. Its client side seems 
entirely JS and doesn't work on an older phone and often won't load in 
WebKit-GTK. I'm able to read Fedora mailing lists on both of these and even in 
a text browser, so it means at least this drawback HyperKitty doesn't have.

> I avoid it as much as possible, trying to get answers from 
> bugzilla.redhat.com or IRC or the
> archlinux wiki whenever possible instead.

Well one should search wikis and bugzilla before writing to a mailing list so 
they aren't really alternatives. IRC is, yes.
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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[makepost]

> you would largely only use the web UI to sign up or change your settings.

What about reading the history? I mostly end up on mailing lists web UI by 
following links from web searches and bug trackers.
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