Re: [GNC] Imbalance Records with zero amounts

[David Carlson]

Well, Apparently I lied.  I just jumped to Imbalance-USD from a transaction
that I wasn't done editing and I found some old or incredibly old
transactions with zero valued splits.  However, they all had content in the
description field which was serving as an anchor to prevent the
disappearance, usually where I accidentally failed to use my special
account for comments.

On Thu, Jun 27, 2024 at 1:46 AM David Carlson 
wrote:

> Paul,
>
> I have never had a zero value imbalance line fail to disappear when I
> edited any transaction.  Granted, I never intentionally tried various
> sequences of edits to see if I could make one stick, since it was always my
> goal to balance the transaction so that I could save it and go on to the
> next edit.  However, I also did not have a favorite procedure of editing
> debits or credits first.  Sometimes entering a description in a split line
> intentionally brings along an account name and value from a previous edit
> in that account.  That might temporarily create an imbalance that might
> stay for a while before I get the transaction balanced.  If a nonzero
> imbalance does exist, another edit to effectively create an offsetting
> imbalance is all that is required to make both of the imbalances
> disappear.  I have never worried about values because GnuCash always sorts
> left side first then zero value splits next and right side splits last.
>
> Sorry to ramble but I just never noticed anything weird about imbalances
> in many years of experience with them.  They just came and went as I was
> completing transaction edits.  I would estimate that more than 60 percent
> of my transactions have three or more split lines too.
>
> On Wed, Jun 26, 2024 at 10:41 PM Paul Kroitor  wrote:
>
>> David, if we are both using 5.6 in Windows but have different behaviours,
>> then I expect either our settings or our procedures are different.
>> 1. Are you using auto-split as a register default?
>> 2. My issue appears when I edit only a previously saved transaction. In
>> auto-split, one must do this it two steps, the debit side, and then the
>> credit side.
>>
>> Update:
>> Procedure to create a zero imbalance:
>> - (in auto-split) edit the first (debit) amount, press ENTER: Imbalance
>> split is created (NB: the account field in the split actually says
>> "Imbalance").
>> - edit second (credit) amount, Press ENTER. Imbalance changes to 0.
>> - Press ENTER again, cursor moves to next transaction.
>> - Go back to prior transaction, and zero imbalance is still there.
>>
>> Procedure to NOT create a zero imbalance:
>> - exactly as above only use down arrow (or left mouse click) to navigate
>> between lines.
>>
>> Note that in this second case, there is an imbalance amount line created
>> but it created in bottom line of the group *without* "Imbalance" in the
>> account field.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: gnucash-user  On
>> Behalf Of Paul Kroitor
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2024 11:08 PM
>> To: 'David Carlson' 
>> Cc: gnucash-user@gnucash.org
>> Subject: Re: [GNC] Imbalance Records with zero amounts
>>
>> I am using 5.6 here (on Windows), but I’m pretty sure this behaviour has
>> been around for as long as I can remember (and I started on 2.6).
>>
>>
>>
>> However, in playing around trying to document the exact steps to recreate
>> the issue, it seems to me that it’s changed in that it’s more pervasive
>> than before.
>>
>>
>>
>> It used to be that some edits of existing transactions would create a
>> temporary Imbalance split as the last split, and those ones would disappear
>> once the transaction was saved. But other edits would create the temporary
>> Imbalance split in between the debit and credit entries, and those would
>> stick around.
>>
>>
>>
>> However, I now cannot edit any existing transaction amounts without a
>> zero Imbalance split sticking around.
>>
>>
>>
>> Note that I always work in auto-split registers, so when a transaction
>> must be corrected, I change the debit side, which of course creates an
>> imbalance line. I then change the credit side, which eliminates the
>> imbalance (it becomes zero) but the split line stays in the register (in
>> every test I do now, apparently). Something has definitely changed, because
>> it wasn’t this bad before.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: David Carlson 
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2024 10:39 PM
>> To: p...@kroitor.ca
>> Cc: stan...@fastmail.fm; gnucash-user@gnucash.org
>> Subject: Re: [GNC] Imbalance Records with zero amounts
>>
>>
>>
>> Nobody is revealing which version they are using.  In older versions, ie
>> before 5.something,   imbalance entries of 0 automatically disappeared when
>> a transaction was saved.  I think it is a bug if they are now being saved.
>> They are disappearing in my copy of release 5.6 in windows.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 26, 2024, 9:14 PM Paul Kroitor > p...@kroitor.ca> > wrote:
>>
>> I get one of these empty (zero amount) splits every time I have to change
>> both sid

Re: [GNC] Credit and Debit Columns in Journal View

[bbc104 via gnucash-user]

That's a very good explanation Stan, thank you.

Richard


https://oscar-idp.com

On Tue, 25 Jun 2024 at 20:29, Stan Brown (using GC 4.14) <
stan+gc_at_fastmail.fm_rca...@duck.com> wrote:

> DuckDuckGo was unable to verify sender identity
>
> On 2024-06-25 12:10, rudy beuc wrote:
> > So, I get my files all set up with my desired account structure. Here's
> > the thing, in my checking account, my opening balance appears as a debt.
> > In fact what should be the Credit and Debit Column as I've seen in other
> > examples, appears to be reversely labeled. The Debit column is directly
> > next to the cleared or not cleared column. If I enter a check into the
> > checking account, it wants to appear as a credit.
> >
> > What's going on, how do I fix this?
>
> Nothing is "going on", and there's nothing to fix. Your checking account
> is an asset to you, which means that its balance is normally a debit
> (not "debt"). In transactions, a debit (such as a deposit) increases
> your checking balance and a credit (such as writing a check) decreases
> your checking balance.
>
> Assets and expenses: debit increases balance, credit reduces balance
> Liabilities, equity, and income: debit reduces balance, credit increases
> balance
>
> Your confusion may come from this: that very same checking account is a
> liability to your bank. A credit increases the balance
> _on_your_bank's_books_ and a debit decreases the balance.
>
> Because of this, ordinary consumers are used to thinking that a credit
> increases their checking account balance. And that's true -- on the
> bank's books -- but it's exactly backwards on your own books.
>
> Similar confusion reigns regarding credit cards. Your credit card
> balance is a liability to you: buying something increases your balance
> and is therefore a credit on your books; making a payment decreases your
> balance and is therefore a debit on your books. (More completely: making
> a payment, like every other transaction, has a debit side and a credit
> side. The debit side is the reduction in your credit-card balance; the
> credit side is the reduction in your checking account.)
>
> Again, ordinary consumers are confused because banks describe things
> from the banks' perspective. To them, your credit card account is an
> asset: a debit increases the balance of that asset and a credit
> decreases the balance. When you make a payment or return a purchase "for
> credit", it is indeed a credit to that account on the bank's books, but
> it is a debit to that account on your books.
>
> Stan Brown
> Tehachapi, CA, USA
> https://BrownMath.com
> ___
> gnucash-user mailing list
> gnucash-user@gnucash.org
> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> -
> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>
___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Imbalance Records with zero amounts

[sunfish62--- via gnucash-user]

Paul, 

When you press ENTER, you commit the transaction, thus creating a permanent 
split that must be deleted. 

Were you to press TAB to navigate to the next split, the transaction would not 
yet be committed, and the temporarily-created imbalance split *should* be 
removed when it returns to zero and you finally commit the transaction. 

This distinction is and has been in the docs for many years.

⁣David T. ​

On Jun 26, 2024, 11:42 PM, at 11:42 PM, Paul Kroitor  wrote:
>David, if we are both using 5.6 in Windows but have different
>behaviours, then I expect either our settings or our procedures are
>different.
>1. Are you using auto-split as a register default?
>2. My issue appears when I edit only a previously saved transaction. In
>auto-split, one must do this it two steps, the debit side, and then the
>credit side. 
>
>Update:
>Procedure to create a zero imbalance:
>- (in auto-split) edit the first (debit) amount, press ENTER: Imbalance
>split is created (NB: the account field in the split actually says
>"Imbalance").
>- edit second (credit) amount, Press ENTER. Imbalance changes to 0.
>- Press ENTER again, cursor moves to next transaction.
>- Go back to prior transaction, and zero imbalance is still there.
>
>Procedure to NOT create a zero imbalance:
>- exactly as above only use down arrow (or left mouse click) to
>navigate between lines.
>
>Note that in this second case, there is an imbalance amount line
>created but it created in bottom line of the group *without*
>"Imbalance" in the account field.
>
>Paul
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: gnucash-user 
>On Behalf Of Paul Kroitor
>Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2024 11:08 PM
>To: 'David Carlson' 
>Cc: gnucash-user@gnucash.org
>Subject: Re: [GNC] Imbalance Records with zero amounts
>
>I am using 5.6 here (on Windows), but I’m pretty sure this behaviour
>has been around for as long as I can remember (and I started on 2.6).
>
> 
>
>However, in playing around trying to document the exact steps to
>recreate the issue, it seems to me that it’s changed in that it’s more
>pervasive than before.
>
> 
>
>It used to be that some edits of existing transactions would create a
>temporary Imbalance split as the last split, and those ones would
>disappear once the transaction was saved. But other edits would create
>the temporary  Imbalance split in between the debit and credit entries,
>and those would stick around.
>
> 
>
>However, I now cannot edit any existing transaction amounts without a
>zero Imbalance split sticking around.
>
> 
>
>Note that I always work in auto-split registers, so when a transaction
>must be corrected, I change the debit side, which of course creates an
>imbalance line. I then change the credit side, which eliminates the
>imbalance (it becomes zero) but the split line stays in the register
>(in every test I do now, apparently). Something has definitely changed,
>because it wasn’t this bad before.
>
> 
>
> 
>
> 
>
> 
>
>From: David Carlson 
>Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2024 10:39 PM
>To: p...@kroitor.ca
>Cc: stan...@fastmail.fm; gnucash-user@gnucash.org
>Subject: Re: [GNC] Imbalance Records with zero amounts
>
> 
>
>Nobody is revealing which version they are using.  In older versions,
>ie before 5.something,   imbalance entries of 0 automatically
>disappeared when a transaction was saved.  I think it is a bug if they
>are now being saved.  They are disappearing in my copy of release 5.6
>in windows.
>
> 
>
>On Wed, Jun 26, 2024, 9:14 PM Paul Kroitor  > wrote:
>
>I get one of these empty (zero amount) splits every time I have to
>change both sides of an already entered transaction in a register set
>to auto-split.
>
>Oddly, if the transaction shows the credit first, the imbalance gets
>created (temporarily non-zero) as the last split and, once the
>imbalance line shows zero and is deleted when the transaction is saved.
>
>But if the transaction shows the debit first, the imbalance line
>appears in the middle, and even after it reverts to an imbalance of
>zero and is saved, the zero imbalance line stays in the register.
>
>
>Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Jun 26, 2024, at 9:55 PM, Stan Brown (using GC 4.14)
>mailto:stan%2...@fastmail.fm> > wrote:
>> 
>> To be clear, you're talking about accidentally hitting the enter key
>
>> instead of the Tab key when moving between fields, right?
>> 
>> Stan Brown
>> Tehachapi, CA, USA
>> https://BrownMath.com
>> 
>>> On 2024-06-26 17:04, Jim DeLaHunt wrote:
>>> 
>>> As you know, double-entry bookkeeping requires every transaction to 
>>> be balanced, that is, to have its credits equal its debits. GnuCash 
>>> enforces this requirement, but only when it saves a transaction, not
>
>>> while you are actively entering or editing the transaction. But, it 
>>> is possible to tell GnuCash to save a transaction when you don't
>mean 
>>> to, while you think you are still doing data entry.
>> 
>> ___
>> gnucash-user mailing list
>> gnucash-user@gnu

Re: [GNC] Imbalance Records with zero amounts

[Paul Kroitor]

Thanks for that clarification, that matches with what I’m experiencing here.

 

It also seems to fully explain what the OP was on about originally.

 

Paul

 

From: sunfis...@yahoo.com  
Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2024 8:12 AM
To: Paul Kroitor 
Cc: David Carlson ; bbc104 via gnucash-user 

Subject: Re: [GNC] Imbalance Records with zero amounts

 

Paul, 

When you press ENTER, you commit the transaction, thus creating a permanent 
split that must be deleted. 

Were you to press TAB to navigate to the next split, the transaction would not 
yet be committed, and the temporarily-created imbalance split *should* be 
removed when it returns to zero and you finally commit the transaction. 

This distinction is and has been in the docs for many years.

David T. 

On Jun 26, 2024, at 11:42 PM, Paul Kroitor mailto:p...@kroitor.ca> > wrote:

David, if we are both using 5.6 in Windows but have different behaviours, then 
I expect either our settings or our procedures are different.
1. Are you using auto-split as a register default?
2. My issue appears when I edit only a previously saved transaction. In 
auto-split, one must do this it two steps, the debit side, and then the credit 
side. 

Update:
Procedure to create a zero imbalance:
- (in auto-split) edit the first (debit) amount, press ENTER: Imbalance split 
is created (NB: the account field in the split actually says "Imbalance").
- edit second (credit) amount, Press ENTER. Imbalance changes to 0.
- Press ENTER again, cursor moves to next transaction.
- Go back to prior transaction, and zero imbalance is still there.

Procedure to NOT create a zero imbalance:
- exactly as above only use down arrow (or left mouse click) to navigate 
between lines.

Note that in this second case, there is an imbalance amount line created but it 
created in bottom line of the group *without* "Imbalance" in the account field.

Paul


-Original Message-
From: gnucash-user http://kroitor.ca> 
@gnucash.org> On Behalf Of Paul Kroitor
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2024 11:08 PM
To: 'David Carlson' mailto:david.carlson@gmail.com> >
Cc: gnucash-user@gnucash.org  
Subject: Re: [GNC] Imbalance Records with zero amounts

I am using 5.6 here (on Windows), but I’m pretty sure this behaviour has been 
around for as long as I can remember (and I started on 2.6).

 

However, in playing around trying to document the exact steps to recreate the 
issue, it seems to me that it’s changed in that it’s more pervasive than before.

 

It used to be that some edits of existing transactions would create a temporary 
Imbalance split as the last split, and those ones would disappear once the 
transaction was saved. But other edits would create the temporary  Imbalance 
split in between the debit and credit entries, and those would stick around.

 

However, I now cannot edit any existing transaction amounts without a zero 
Imbalance split sticking around.

 

Note that I always work in auto-split registers, so when a transaction must be 
corrected, I change the debit side, which of course creates an imbalance line. 
I then change the credit side, which eliminates the imbalance (it becomes zero) 
but the split line stays in the register (in every test I do now, apparently). 
Something has definitely changed, because it wasn’t this bad before.

 

 

 

 

From: David Carlson mailto:david.carlson@gmail.com> >
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2024 10:39 PM
To: p...@kroitor.ca  
Cc: stan...@fastmail.fm  ; gnucash-user@gnucash.org 
 
Subject: Re: [GNC] Imbalance Records with zero amounts

 

Nobody is revealing which version they are using.  In older versions, ie before 
5.something,   imbalance entries of 0 automatically disappeared when a 
transaction was saved.  I think it is a bug if they are now being saved.  They 
are disappearing in my copy of release 5.6 in windows.

 

On Wed, Jun 26, 2024, 9:14 PM Paul Kroitor mailto:p...@kroitor.ca%20%3cmailto:p...@kroitor.ca>  > 
wrote:

I get one of these empty (zero amount) splits every time I have to change both 
sides of an already entered transaction in a register set to auto-split.

Oddly, if the transaction shows the credit first, the imbalance gets created 
(temporarily non-zero) as the last split and, once the imbalance line shows 
zero and is deleted when the transaction is saved.

But if the transaction shows the debit first, the imbalance line appears in the 
middle, and even after it reverts to an imbalance of zero and is saved, the 
zero imbalance line stays in the register.


Sent from my iPad

 On Jun 26, 2024, at 9:55 PM, Stan Brown (using GC 4.14) mailto:stan...@fastmail.fm%20%3cmailto:stan%2...@fastmail.fm> 
 > wrote:
 
 To be clear, you're talking about accidentally hitting the enter key 
 instead of the Tab key when moving between fields, right?
 
 Stan Brown
 Tehachapi,