Re: [GNC] I need basic help

[Mark via gnucash-user]

Oct 20, 2023 00:03:40 Edwin Booth via gnucash-user :

> I need to wrap my head around the whole “debit/credit” concept.

One thing that helps me keep it straight is that money flows from credit to 
debit. Credit the account that money is coming from, debit the account that 
money is going to. There is more to consider of course, like whether an account 
usually has a credit or debit balance, but you don't have to learn everything 
at once.
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Re: [GNC] I need basic help

[R Losey]

It *IS* hard because the accounting use of debit/credit is different from
the common or colloquial usage of the words. In everyday usage, people tend
to use "debit" as a synonym for "decrease" and "credit" to mean "increase",
and that is NOT the case in accounting, as the tutorials helpfully explain.

On Fri, Oct 20, 2023 at 12:03 AM Edwin Booth via gnucash-user <
gnucash-user@gnucash.org> wrote:

> I am working my way through the tutorial. One of the things it says near
> the beginning is that one should set up a practice file. I need to wrap my
> head around the whole “debit/credit” concept.
> Thanks for your help. Everyone’s comments and suggestions are quite
> helpful.
> Edwin
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Thursday, October 19, 2023, 10:31 PM, David Cousens <
> davidcousen...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> No doubt but reading is a good point from which to start practising.
> David
>
> On Fri, 2023-10-20 at 07:19 +1100, flywire wrote:
> >
> https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2023-October/109173.html
> > David Cousens wrote:
> > > I would suggest you read at least the introductory sections of the
> > GnuCash Tutorial and Concepts guide under the heading Basics
> > https://www.gnucash.org/viewdoc.phtml?rev=5⟨=C&doc=guide
> >
> > I doubt many people can learn the accounting and software concepts by
> just
> > reading. New users  should actually run GnuCash and enter the tutorial
> > transactions from the guide into a file.
> > ___
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-- 
_
Richard Losey
rlo...@gmail.com
Micah 6:8
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Re: [GNC] I need basic help

[Michael or Penny Novack]

I need to wrap my head around the whole “debit/credit” concept.

One thing that helps me keep it straight is that money flows from credit to 
debit. Credit the account that money is coming from, debit the account that 
money is going to. There is more to consider of course, like whether an account 
usually has a credit or debit balance, but you don't have to learn everything 
at once.


That might not be of much help (understanding the terms "debit" and 
"credit")


History might, remembering that double entry bookkeeping dates back to 
to times when:


a) European mathematics had not yet accepted negative numbers.

b) Latin was still used for communication between the educated (who 
might otherwise not be speaking the same language)


In other words, the "senses" of amounts in bookkeeping were "debit" and 
"credit", not "positive" and "negative". "Debit" comes from Latin 
"he/she/it owes (me)" and "credit from "he/she/it trusts (me)". Back at 
the start., there were no accounts of (temporary) type "income" and 
":expense", and the people using bookkeeping were moneylenders (bankers) 
who of course might also have other business. So .


Assets --- besides the obvious "cash" would be the loans given out, so 
natural that those amounts be "debit" (somebody owed you the money)


Liabilities -- these would be loans that the business had taken out, 
again natural that the sense be "credit" (somebody was trusting you for 
the money)


Equity --- this will be less obvious why "credit", except that is what 
will be necessary to balance the fundamental equality (the sum of the 
debits must equal the sum of the credits)


The big advance that the banking system of that day provided to trade 
was dealing in liabilities. Thus a merchant in place A planning to 
travel to place B to purchase a cargo of goods to ring back would go to 
the merchant/lenders of A and ask if any held a liability of a 
merchant/banker in place B. If yes, would purchase that debt (having it 
signed over) and could then travel to B carrying this "paper" rather 
than gold, etc. That piece of paper, requiring endorsements, much less 
subject to risks of piracy, etc. On arriving at B, would sell that 
liability for the local currency to make his purchases. In other words, 
these debts became a form of money.


That might help you understand why cash in hand was "debit" like the 
loans owed. Used the same way in trade. Large amounts being transferred 
would normally be in the form of these documents. Thus as long as trade 
between A and B was reasonably in balance, very little actual gold had 
to move back and forth.


Michael D Novack


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Re: [GNC] I need basic help

[Edwin Booth via gnucash-user]

Thank you Michael. The ancient history of these terms is really interesting. I 
don’t really “get it” yet but I see the idea here. Very hard to set aside the 
use of credit and debit in the modern sense and use them in a very different 
way. Counter intuitive. 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, October 20, 2023, 9:05 AM, Michael or Penny Novack 
 wrote:

>> I need to wrap my head around the whole “debit/credit” concept.
> One thing that helps me keep it straight is that money flows from credit to 
> debit. Credit the account that money is coming from, debit the account that 
> money is going to. There is more to consider of course, like whether an 
> account usually has a credit or debit balance, but you don't have to learn 
> everything at once.

That might not be of much help (understanding the terms "debit" and 
"credit")

History might, remembering that double entry bookkeeping dates back to 
to times when:

a) European mathematics had not yet accepted negative numbers.

b) Latin was still used for communication between the educated (who 
might otherwise not be speaking the same language)

In other words, the "senses" of amounts in bookkeeping were "debit" and 
"credit", not "positive" and "negative". "Debit" comes from Latin 
"he/she/it owes (me)" and "credit from "he/she/it trusts (me)". Back at 
the start., there were no accounts of (temporary) type "income" and 
":expense", and the people using bookkeeping were moneylenders (bankers) 
who of course might also have other business. So .

Assets --- besides the obvious "cash" would be the loans given out, so 
natural that those amounts be "debit" (somebody owed you the money)

Liabilities -- these would be loans that the business had taken out, 
again natural that the sense be "credit" (somebody was trusting you for 
the money)

Equity --- this will be less obvious why "credit", except that is what 
will be necessary to balance the fundamental equality (the sum of the 
debits must equal the sum of the credits)

The big advance that the banking system of that day provided to trade 
was dealing in liabilities. Thus a merchant in place A planning to 
travel to place B to purchase a cargo of goods to ring back would go to 
the merchant/lenders of A and ask if any held a liability of a 
merchant/banker in place B. If yes, would purchase that debt (having it 
signed over) and could then travel to B carrying this "paper" rather 
than gold, etc. That piece of paper, requiring endorsements, much less 
subject to risks of piracy, etc. On arriving at B, would sell that 
liability for the local currency to make his purchases. In other words, 
these debts became a form of money.

That might help you understand why cash in hand was "debit" like the 
loans owed. Used the same way in trade. Large amounts being transferred 
would normally be in the form of these documents. Thus as long as trade 
between A and B was reasonably in balance, very little actual gold had 
to move back and forth.

Michael D Novack


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Re: [GNC] I need basic help

[Michael or Penny Novack]

On 10/20/2023 11:47 AM, Edwin Booth wrote:
Thank you Michael. The ancient history of these terms is really 
interesting. I don’t really “get it” yet but I see the idea here. Very 
hard to set aside the use of credit and debit in the modern sense and 
use them in a very different way. Counter intuitive.


Not exactly. The confusion over "modern sense" is something else. Thus 
when R. Losey says:


"It*IS*  hard because the accounting use of debit/credit is different from
the common or colloquial usage of the words. In everyday usage, people tend
to use "debit" as a synonym for "decrease" and "credit" to mean "increase",
and that is NOT the case in accounting, as the tutorials helpfully explain."

 No, the confusion is NOT because accounting use is different but 
confusion over whose books are you looking at. We are sued to seeing 
these "in reverse" on statements we from from the bank for our bank 
accounts or credit card accounts because on those it is from THEIR point 
of view, not ours.


If you owe me, that is an asset/debit in my books and a liability/credit 
in your books.


If you have money in a bank account that amount would be a debit from 
your point of view and a credit from the bank's point of view (they owe 
you the money, you are trusting them to give you that money when you 
want to take some out). It is going to be the same when a business sends 
you an invoice/statement. THAT is where the "in reverse" comes from. 
Everybody is using the same accounting rules. Nobody is using these 
terms in reverse. The point of view is what is in reverse.


Does that help?

Michael D Novack


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Re: [GNC] I need basic help

[Mark via gnucash-user]

Oct 20, 2023 09:06:46 Michael or Penny Novack :

> That might not be of much help (understanding the terms "debit" and "credit")
>
> History might, …


My point was that you don't *have* to learn all that before GnuCash will be 
useful to you. The history *is* helpful to understand the terms fully, but to 
start using GnuCash, you can start with learning how to enter where the money 
comes from and where it goes, and learn more as you need it.
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[GNC] scheduled transactions: simple or compound interest calculations in

[Name Same]

Hi there,

I am new to gnucash, so please pardon me if this sounds too simple a
question.

How do I schedule transactions to automatically add a percentage interest
for a fixed deposit for a fixed deposit account?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed_deposit

The material on how to enter/use simple or compound interest formulas in
scheduled translation is not clear. Here are the links I found: 1)
https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Scheduled_Transactions#Bank_Account_Interest,
and 2) https://code.gnucash.org/docs/C/gnucash-guide/invest_int1.html

Link 2) doesn't have a screenshot that shows what entries were made in the
fields/forms to calculate interest, and shows just the result.

Another side problem I face is: When I create a fixed deposit account with
an initial amount, the scheduled transaction template for some reason keeps
adding "opening balance" to the transactions. How do I just schedule
interest deposits based on opening balance of fixed deposit account?

Thanks,

Robin
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Re: [GNC] I need basic help

[Fross, Michael]

A help to me was to turn off 'Use Formal Accounting Labels" in the settings
when I started (and have never enabled that.)  I feel it is much easier to
understand for non-accounting people.


On Fri, Oct 20, 2023 at 12:53 PM Mark via gnucash-user <
gnucash-user@gnucash.org> wrote:

> Oct 20, 2023 09:06:46 Michael or Penny Novack  >:
>
> > That might not be of much help (understanding the terms "debit" and
> "credit")
> >
> > History might, …
>
>
> My point was that you don't *have* to learn all that before GnuCash will
> be useful to you. The history *is* helpful to understand the terms fully,
> but to start using GnuCash, you can start with learning how to enter where
> the money comes from and where it goes, and learn more as you need it.
> ___
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> gnucash-user@gnucash.org
> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
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Re: [GNC] I need basic help

[Michael or Penny Novack]

On 10/20/2023 4:13 PM, Fross, Michael wrote:

A help to me was to turn off 'Use Formal Accounting Labels" in the settings
when I started (and have never enabled that.)  I feel it is much easier to
understand for non-accounting people.


Some of you will find the "user friendly" column  titles easier. Just 
have to realize that they will depend on the type of account and will at 
rare times be very confusing because for THIS transaction not making 
much sense.


Others will find "formal" easier because debit will always be the left 
column, credit the right column (used to be sides of the ledger page, 
but thank goodness that's obsolete) That will be the same no matter what 
kind of account.


Gnucash is of course showing THREE columns, that one farthest to the 
right being the running balance. That didn't exist in the old days 
either. These days we are comfortable dealing with negative numbers (a 
negative balance means balance in the opposite sense to what is normal 
for that type of account).


Michael D Novack



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Re: [GNC] I need basic help

[flywire]

https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2023-October/109184.html
Edwin Booth wrote:
> I need to wrap my head around the whole “debit/credit” concept.

No you don't but you do need to understand the concept of account types and
moving money between them. I've studied economics at Uni, evaluated endless
projects, used a range of accounting software, and worked with
accountants and bookkeepers without being aware of how credit and debit is
defined in accounting. I rarely used the terms, and most people that
understood them would realise the common understanding is wrong and use the
terms in a general sense or avoid them.

It's a pretty meaningless discussion commercial projects avoid to reduce
confusion. The user documentation would be clearer with simple language:
https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2023-May/106929.html

Regards

>
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Re: [GNC] I need basic help

[David Cousens]

I do agree with the comments in your previous post that the concept of
transactions needs to be explained before or at least in parallel to  concept of
accounts. I rewrote a fair bit of the basics section of the guide when I was
fresh out of an accounting master's which might account for its more technical
bias.  I haven't revisited the guide much since then but I will take another
look at it. It is always a compromise between producing a full scale textbook
and brevity that someone will actually read.

Some other accounting software does indeed hide the details of the debit/credit
and the accounting equation and double entry from users. I am a convert from
software that did that and because that basis was hidden it made understanding
the accounts more difficult than it should, particularly during the setup phase
of a business. Add to that my highly paid accountant (one of big 4) was not
particularly useful. That can be useful for a lot of routine data entry, however
it is the edge cases that often require a deeper understanding of the basis of
double entry accounting.

I disagree however that the non-accounting terminology should be the default.
The non-accounting terminology is often not precise in its meaning whereas once
you have understood the definitions, the meaning of the accounting terminology
and its use is well defined.  Accounting is a well documented commercial
practice and the double entry system is core to its operation and GnuCash is
primarily accounting software, not general financial software although it does a
very good job for small operations and can be adapted to that use. 

It is also an excellent educational tool for formal accounting. I used it as
such while doing amaster's and it produced basic reports which conformed well
with what was expected for formal accounting reports.

David Cousens


On Sat, 2023-10-21 at 09:48 +1100, flywire wrote:
> https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2023-October/109184.html
> Edwin Booth wrote:
> > I need to wrap my head around the whole “debit/credit” concept.
> 
> No you don't but you do need to understand the concept of account types and
> moving money between them. I've studied economics at Uni, evaluated endless
> projects, used a range of accounting software, and worked with
> accountants and bookkeepers without being aware of how credit and debit is
> defined in accounting. I rarely used the terms, and most people that
> understood them would realise the common understanding is wrong and use the
> terms in a general sense or avoid them.
> 
> It's a pretty meaningless discussion commercial projects avoid to reduce
> confusion. The user documentation would be clearer with simple language:
> https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2023-May/106929.html
> 
> Regards
> 
> > 
> ___
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[GNC] Having issues with gsettings, dconf, gsettings-dconf-backend and GnuCash

[Bryan B.]

Hello,

I'm new to GnuCash. Making the switch from Quicken. I'm excited about being
able to access my raw data!

Background info:

My OS is Ubuntu 23.10.

Running gnucash --version in the terminal returns:
GnuCash 5.3
Build ID: 5.3+(2023-06-26)

I installed it through the Software Center.

I did spend a great deal of time trying to get GnuCash to build via the
Wiki "Building on Ubuntu" page. However, I kept getting errors when running
the build script. I figured it was because I am running Ubuntu 23.10, so I
gave up and went with the software center instead. If desired, I am willing
to work with a dev who would like to troubleshoot.

While working this week, I had two separate issues that popped up. As I
researched the answers, I learned from JRalls on #gnucash IRC that the two
issues are likely related.

Regarding the issue that is related to GnuCash, in short, while working in
GnuCash I cannot get my settings to persist. If I delete a transaction and
the modal pops up asking me if I'm sure, and then I click the checkbox that
states that I do not want to be asked again, this setting does not persist
during the session.

Furthermore, if I quit and log back in, my file is not saved and I get the
New User "Import QIF" options pop up.

For more information about this first issue, read the conversation I had
with GnuCash dev JRalls here.

Link to Bug 799107 

The other issue I have, that could be related, is that I am not able to use
gsettings in the console to change my desktop background image.

I can get the background image to change by opening the dconf GUI, although
I had to play around with some dir perms for ~/.config/dconf/ to make that
happen. However, I still cannot get any changes reliably for my terminal
commands.

JRalls informs me that GnuCash uses gsettings, dconf, and
gsettings-dconf-backend to make settings persist, and we thought it would
be best to ask here on #gnucash-user to see if anyone has any ideas.

Thanks.

B
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