[GNC] Fwd: Fwd: Bonus share entry

[Gnucash Xboxboy Mageia]

Thanks everyone: I think David's tab trick worked. It appears to have
worked anyways.

Now my next trick, is a double trick:
During the ownership of a company, it has changed it's name/code. How does
one best handle this?

and

I have 163 shares in a company that had a capital reconstruction, and after
wards it has 98 shares: So the reverse of a stock split: Can the stock
split process handle this?

I appreciate everyone's input.
Xboxboy

On Sat, Mar 9, 2019 at 5:32 PM Chris Good  wrote:

> -Original Message-
> From: D 
> Sent: Thursday, 7 March 2019 12:26 PM
> To: Chris Good ; Gnucash Users <
> gnucash-user@gnucash.org>
> Subject: Re: [GNC] Fwd: Bonus share entry
>
> Chris,
>
> That's a bad idea. It messes up the lots as you note, it screws up the
> acquisition dates (important for tax purposes in the US), and ultimately
> it's not what happened. Since it is possible to add zero cost shares using
> tab (instead of enter), there is no reason to use this approach. You
> certainly don't *have* to use it.
>
> David
>
> On March 7, 2019, at 2:29 AM, Chris Good  wrote:
>
> Message: 6
> > Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 22:00:16 +1030
> > From: Gnucash Xboxboy Mageia 
> > To: Derek Atkins 
> > Cc: gnucash-user@gnucash.org
> > Subject: Re: [GNC] Fwd: Bonus share entry
> > Message-ID:
> >
> > 
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> >> On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 9:38 PM Derek Atkins  wrote:
> >>
> >> The cost may be zero, but the value is not.
> >> Maybe just enter them as 0.01?
> >>
> >> -derek
> >> Sent using my mobile device. Please excuse any typos.
> >> On March 6, 2019 6:07:28 AM Gnucash Xboxboy Mageia
> >>  wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi all,
> >>> I have some bonus shares that were issued with no cost to me:
> >>>
> >>> I am having trouble entering them without a cost. When I put 0 as
> >>> the
> >> cost,
> >>> on the next line 1 appears, and I am unable to get rid of it.
> >>>
> >>> Perhaps I'm doing this the wrong way, and need to be entering them
> >>> as a share split?
> >>>
> >>> In this case, I had 100 shares, and got issued 16 for no cost: so I
> >>> have
> >>> 116 in total.
> >>>
> >>> Any ideas?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> Xboxboy
> >>> ___
> >>> gnucash-user mailing list
> >>> gnucash-user@gnucash.org
> >>> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
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> >>> -
> >>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> >>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
> > Hi Derek,
> >
> > I've attached a picture, I don't think I'm explaining very well.
> >
> > Please see attached.
> >
> > What can I do about that imbalance line?
> > Many thanks,
> > Xboxboy
> > -- next part -- A non-text attachment was
> > scrubbed...
> > Name: Screenshot_20190306_215426.png
> > Type: image/png
> > Size: 34424 bytes
> > Desc: not available
> > URL:
> >  > 8a2c7c73/attachment.png>
> >
>
> Hi XBoxBoy,
>
> If the tax authorities have agreed that you are getting these bonus shares
> for zero cost, then to keep the cost correct in GnuCash you will have to do
> a dummy sell of all your existing shares at cost, and then in another
> transaction, buy them, including the bonus qty, at the same cost. Assuming
> this is for your personal accounting, it probably doesn't matter which
> account you use for the other side in each transaction - you could probably
> use either a bank account (and if you reconcile that bank account, flag the
> transactions as reconciled even though they never appear on a bank
> statement) or an Equity:Opening Balances account - you should check with
> your accountant.
>
> Doing this will mean manually keeping track of lots bought and sold when
> determining costs of future sales.
>
> Regards, Chris Good
>
> Hi David,
>
> You're right, I was confusing this with the problem where the Advanced
> Portfolio Report doesn't handle Return Of Capital transactions, but it
> seems to handle zero cost and price transactions OK. Sorry for the bad
> advice XBoxBoy.
>
> Regards,
> Chris Good
>
>
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Re: [GNC] The Meaning of Split (previously Example of multi-split feature of CSV importer?)

[aeg via gnucash-user]

Hi Derek,
Thank you for your explanation. I've given this further thought overnight and, 
although I understand your thinking, your analogy has helped me see where 
confusion might have arisen.

When you say "split the wood in two" you are using split(v), not 
split(n).Calling each piece of the result a split(n) is perfectly 
reasonable,which is what GnuCash does.

If I have a pile of logs that I want to use as firewood, it might be necessary 
to split(v) them first. I then have a pile of split logs where "split" is being 
used as an adjective. "Split logs" in the complete term whereas you have chosen 
to abbreviate it to split(n), which makes no sense if used on its own, as in "I 
have a pile of splits".

It appears that that is what has happened to the use of split in GnuCash and 
"split transaction" has been abbreviated to "split", which long-term users have 
got used to it. Geert's suggested use of the word "entry" for the individual 
parts of a transaction would surely make sense to all users and still allow for 
the use of "split entry transaction" when referring to the whole transaction.
Kind regards,
Alan
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Re: [GNC] The Meaning of Split (previously Example of multi-split feature of CSV importer?)

[Michael Hendry]

> On 22 Mar 2019, at 19:33, aeg via gnucash-user  
> wrote:


--

I agree with Michael's points.A simple transaction consists of just one split 
but two parts, and saying (pretending) that a simple transaction has two splits 
is misleading.
I see no problems with the use of terms like 'simple transaction' (with one 
split and two parts) or with 'compound transactions' (with 2+ splits and 3+ 
parts), but it doesn't make sense to refer to the parts as splits. Why not just 
use the term 'parts' or 'transaction parts' or even invent a new word 
'transparts'; (after all, GnuCash is a made up word too.)
Just because GnuCash developers previously defined the 'parts' of a transaction 
as 'splits' doesn't mean that the definition shouldn't be changed to make it 
clearer.
Kind regards,Alan


___

Thanks for your support, Alan,

and also for the fact that your response demonstrates the incomprehensibility 
of the terminology!

QED

You say “A simple transaction consists of just one split…” This is not the case 
- a simple transaction involves two splits. Similarly, a compound transaction 
involves 3 or more splits.

The situation isn’t helped by the use of the term “Split Transaction” which 
appears in a register where there is a transaction with more than 2 splits. 
Does this mean (using Split as a noun) that the transaction is made up from 
splits, or (using it as a past participle) that the transaction is in a state 
of having been split. Replacing this with “Compound Transaction” would make it 
clear that there is more to see while not having any fundamental affect on 
underlying code or data.

Regards,

Michael




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Re: [GNC] The Meaning of Split (previously Example of multi-split feature of CSV importer?)

[Christopher Lam]

I'll throw some more confusion I'm afraid. I'd think a Split is somewhat
unique to GnuCash, for better or for worse. I don't think there's an
equivalent word in general usage. If we define Split as a "that which links
Transactions to Accounts" then there's no confusion here.

Technically a Transaction can have 1 Split - in an account register, input
a date, description/memo/notes, and leave the rest blank -- presto, a
single-split transaction with no account, no amount or amount = 0, and the
engine will accept it. This single-split transaction will appear in the
Transaction Report, and causes no harm. You can use this for annotating
accounts "01/01/2018 - new year - new tenant moves in - monthly $500 rent
expected". Does any other bookkeeping software allow this?

A 2-Split transaction is the most common transfer involving 2 separate
accounts, and is displayed as a shortcut for newbies.

A 3-Split (or more links 3 accounts or more together), useful for complex
transfers involving taxes withheld, or mortgage/capital/interest
repayments, or complex payroll entries.

I don't think there's a compelling argument to rename 20 years of history...

Thanks for your support, Alan,
>
> and also for the fact that your response demonstrates the
> incomprehensibility of the terminology!
>
> QED
>
> You say “A simple transaction consists of just one split…” This is not the
> case - a simple transaction involves two splits. Similarly, a compound
> transaction involves 3 or more splits.
>
> The situation isn’t helped by the use of the term “Split Transaction”
> which appears in a register where there is a transaction with more than 2
> splits. Does this mean (using Split as a noun) that the transaction is made
> up from splits, or (using it as a past participle) that the transaction is
> in a state of having been split. Replacing this with “Compound Transaction”
> would make it clear that there is more to see while not having any
> fundamental affect on underlying code or data.
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael
>
>
>
>
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Re: [GNC] The Meaning of Split (previously Example of multi-split feature of CSV importer?)

[Michael Hendry]

> On 22 Mar 2019, at 19:33, aeg via gnucash-user  
> wrote:


--

I agree with Michael's points.A simple transaction consists of just one split 
but two parts, and saying (pretending) that a simple transaction has two splits 
is misleading.
I see no problems with the use of terms like 'simple transaction' (with one 
split and two parts) or with 'compound transactions' (with 2+ splits and 3+ 
parts), but it doesn't make sense to refer to the parts as splits. Why not just 
use the term 'parts' or 'transaction parts' or even invent a new word 
'transparts'; (after all, GnuCash is a made up word too.)
Just because GnuCash developers previously defined the 'parts' of a transaction 
as 'splits' doesn't mean that the definition shouldn't be changed to make it 
clearer.
Kind regards,Alan


___

Thanks for your support, Alan,

also for inadvertently revealing that the terminology has confused you too!

QED

You say “A simple transaction consists of just one split…” - this is not true - 
it’s clear from everyday use of GC that there are two splits in a simple 
transaction, in other words that a split maps directly to what would be called 
a Ledger Entry in paper-and-ink bookkeeping. Similarly, a compound transaction 
is one with more than 2 splits.

More confusion is added to the mix by the appearance of the term “Split 
Transaction” in the Basic View of a register which includes a compound 
transaction. This may be the reason for your errors above. 

As every transaction involves splits, this isn’t helpful. If it said “Compound 
Transaction” it would be much easier to comprehend, and would not need to cause 
problems for the underlying code or data.

I appreciate Derek’s point that removing the term “split” from the code and 
data would have consequences for future developers, and that the introduction 
of “Ledger Entry” would be awkward, but with some minor changes to the code and 
revision of the documentation this could all be resolved.

For example, consider this section:

"4.3. Simple vs. Split Transactions

"Every transaction in GnuCash has at least two splits, but a transaction can 
have more than two splits. A transaction with only two splits is called a 
simple transaction, since it only involves the current account and a single 
remote account. A transaction with three or more accounts is called a split 
transaction.

"When the register is in Basic view, you will see a summary of the splits 
affecting the current account. For a simple transaction, the Transfer column 
will display the other account from which money is transferred. For a split 
transaction, the Transfer column will display -- Split Transaction --. You can 
see the individual splits of each transaction by clicking the Split button in 
the Toolbar while selecting the appropriate transaction.”

I would suggest:

“4.3 Simple vs. Compound Transactions

"Every transaction in GnuCash has at least two entries, one recording the 
source account for the cash, and the other its destination. These are the 
equivalent of Ledger Entries in traditional bookkeeping, and are known as 
“splits” in GnuCash. A two-split transaction is called a Simple Transaction.

"It’s also possible to have more than two splits in a transaction, which is 
called a Compound Transaction.

"When the register is in Basic view, you will see a summary of the splits 
affecting the current account. For a simple transaction, the Transfer column 
will display the other account from which money is transferred. For a compound 
transaction, the Transfer column will display -- Compound Transaction --. You 
can see the individual splits of each transaction by clicking the Split button 
in the Toolbar while selecting the appropriate transaction.”


I think the implications for the code would be small, but the relevant sections 
of the documentation would have to be carefully reviewed.

Regards,

Michael

(Still hopeful of generating more light than heat) 


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Re: [GNC] Fwd: Bonus share entry

[Gnucash Xboxboy Mageia]

I managed to sort the capital reconstruction out: Stock split with a
negative value.

As for the naming and code issue: I think I'll just rename the stock to
it's final name, and enter notes on the earlier transactions before the
name change?
Or is there a proper way to handle this? I was also thinking the stock
merger feature could be used?

On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 6:13 PM Gnucash Xboxboy Mageia <
xboxboy.mageia+gnuc...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks everyone: I think David's tab trick worked. It appears to have
> worked anyways.
>
> Now my next trick, is a double trick:
> During the ownership of a company, it has changed it's name/code. How does
> one best handle this?
>
> and
>
> I have 163 shares in a company that had a capital reconstruction, and
> after wards it has 98 shares: So the reverse of a stock split: Can the
> stock split process handle this?
>
> I appreciate everyone's input.
> Xboxboy
>
> On Sat, Mar 9, 2019 at 5:32 PM Chris Good  wrote:
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: D 
>> Sent: Thursday, 7 March 2019 12:26 PM
>> To: Chris Good ; Gnucash Users <
>> gnucash-user@gnucash.org>
>> Subject: Re: [GNC] Fwd: Bonus share entry
>>
>> Chris,
>>
>> That's a bad idea. It messes up the lots as you note, it screws up the
>> acquisition dates (important for tax purposes in the US), and ultimately
>> it's not what happened. Since it is possible to add zero cost shares using
>> tab (instead of enter), there is no reason to use this approach. You
>> certainly don't *have* to use it.
>>
>> David
>>
>> On March 7, 2019, at 2:29 AM, Chris Good  wrote:
>>
>> Message: 6
>> > Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 22:00:16 +1030
>> > From: Gnucash Xboxboy Mageia 
>> > To: Derek Atkins 
>> > Cc: gnucash-user@gnucash.org
>> > Subject: Re: [GNC] Fwd: Bonus share entry
>> > Message-ID:
>> >
>> > 
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >
>> >> On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 9:38 PM Derek Atkins  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> The cost may be zero, but the value is not.
>> >> Maybe just enter them as 0.01?
>> >>
>> >> -derek
>> >> Sent using my mobile device. Please excuse any typos.
>> >> On March 6, 2019 6:07:28 AM Gnucash Xboxboy Mageia
>> >>  wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Hi all,
>> >>> I have some bonus shares that were issued with no cost to me:
>> >>>
>> >>> I am having trouble entering them without a cost. When I put 0 as
>> >>> the
>> >> cost,
>> >>> on the next line 1 appears, and I am unable to get rid of it.
>> >>>
>> >>> Perhaps I'm doing this the wrong way, and need to be entering them
>> >>> as a share split?
>> >>>
>> >>> In this case, I had 100 shares, and got issued 16 for no cost: so I
>> >>> have
>> >>> 116 in total.
>> >>>
>> >>> Any ideas?
>> >>>
>> >>> Thanks,
>> >>> Xboxboy
>> >>> ___
>> >>> gnucash-user mailing list
>> >>> gnucash-user@gnucash.org
>> >>> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
>> >>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>> >>> If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
>> >>> https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
>> >>> -
>> >>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>> >>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>> > Hi Derek,
>> >
>> > I've attached a picture, I don't think I'm explaining very well.
>> >
>> > Please see attached.
>> >
>> > What can I do about that imbalance line?
>> > Many thanks,
>> > Xboxboy
>> > -- next part -- A non-text attachment was
>> > scrubbed...
>> > Name: Screenshot_20190306_215426.png
>> > Type: image/png
>> > Size: 34424 bytes
>> > Desc: not available
>> > URL:
>> > > > 8a2c7c73/attachment.png>
>> >
>>
>> Hi XBoxBoy,
>>
>> If the tax authorities have agreed that you are getting these bonus
>> shares for zero cost, then to keep the cost correct in GnuCash you will
>> have to do a dummy sell of all your existing shares at cost, and then in
>> another transaction, buy them, including the bonus qty, at the same cost.
>> Assuming this is for your personal accounting, it probably doesn't matter
>> which account you use for the other side in each transaction - you could
>> probably use either a bank account (and if you reconcile that bank account,
>> flag the transactions as reconciled even though they never appear on a bank
>> statement) or an Equity:Opening Balances account - you should check with
>> your accountant.
>>
>> Doing this will mean manually keeping track of lots bought and sold when
>> determining costs of future sales.
>>
>> Regards, Chris Good
>>
>> Hi David,
>>
>> You're right, I was confusing this with the problem where the Advanced
>> Portfolio Report doesn't handle Return Of Capital transactions, but it
>> seems to handle zero cost and price transactions OK. Sorry for the bad
>> advice XBoxBoy.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Chris Good
>>
>>
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Re: [GNC] The Meaning of Split (previously Example of multi-split feature of CSV importer?)

[Michael or Penny Novack]

I think this dispute has more to do with how we begin to learn about 
transactions in double entry bookkeeping and that gnucash (and yes, most 
equivalent "direct entry into the ledger" alternatives) begins with a 
SIMPLIFIED entry that makes it quick/easy to enter the overwhelming 
majority of transactions.


Let's go back to the way double entry was done, first entering 
transactions into a "journal" and then later posting these to the 
ledger. We can then define a transaction as:


a date, optionally a check number or transaction number
one OR MORE lines of debits, each with the account being debited and the 
amount
one OR MORE lines of credits, each with the account being credited and 
the amount

and optional description of this transaction
< with the condition that the total of the debit amounts and the total 
of credit amounts must be the same>


This would then get posted to the ledger, each of those debit or credit 
lines being a line in that ledger account.


Now in gnucash (and yes, in  most alternatives) the journal is virtual. 
You begin entering directly in ANY of the affected accounts. Since MOST 
transactions have only one other account being affected, the entry 
process allows you to specify that on the same line. IF (for some 
reason) you wanted to see the journal, there is a report you can run << 
aside: in the old days, transcription errors while manually posting were 
the bulk of the the errors that had to be painstakingly found -- there 
were a number of "tricks" you had to learn to help you find  the error >>


Because THIS (beginning with the simplest possible transaction form) is 
how we begin entering with gnucash (and equivalents) we have a PROCESS 
to switch to the more general form of transaction where there is more 
than one debit, more than one credit, or both. That is called SPLIT. 
When you hit the split button, it brings up a view of what the JOURNAL 
entry would look like. All we are splitting is the view of a transaction 
form one where see a single line (with one debit and one credit) to a 
form where each debit and each credit appears on its own line.


The alternative software might call this process something else (say 
"switch to journal view" instead of "split" but is doing the same thing.


In other words, this is a "work flow" matter. The developers (correctly) 
decided to make it quick and easy to enter the overwhelming majority of 
transactions instead of always requiring the process needed for the 
rarer general case transaction.


Michael D Novack
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Re: [GNC] The Meaning of Split (previously Example of multi-split feature of CSV importer?)

[GTI .H]

I'm sorry for the contrary provisions, but this is the most natural of what
should be simple transactions and split transactions:

See the figure:

[image: Single-Split Transaction.JPG]
Anything out of it only makes sense for non-accounting contexts and it's a
arm wrestling of professionals of different areas.


-- 
Regards
GTI
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Re: [GNC] The Meaning of Split (previously Example of multi-split feature of CSV importer?)

[Jack Lockard]

Forgive me, but this seems like much ado about nothing. For me the explanation 
is simple. In every transaction there is a source account for the cash being 
distributed and one or more destination accounts where the cash is distributed 
to. It is proper to say when there is more than one destination account that 
you are splitting the cash into multiple destination accounts or you are 
dividing the cash into multiple destination accounts. Whether the term is 
splitting or dividing or another suitable word, it is a compound transaction 
when there is more than one destination account. To me I am just entering a 
transaction into the system and sometimes the cash is divided between multiple 
destination accounts. I really do not care what you call the transaction as 
long as I understand the principle behind what is going on.

Isn’t language and the workings of the human mind wonderful?

Jack


-Original Message-
From: gnucash-user  On 
Behalf Of GTI .H
Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2019 11:19 AM
To: gnucash-user 
Subject: Re: [GNC] The Meaning of Split (previously Example of multi-split 
feature of CSV importer?)

I'm sorry for the contrary provisions, but this is the most natural of what 
should be simple transactions and split transactions:

See the figure:

[image: Single-Split Transaction.JPG]
Anything out of it only makes sense for non-accounting contexts and it's a arm 
wrestling of professionals of different areas.


--
Regards
GTI
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Re: [GNC] The Meaning of Split (previously Example of multi-split feature of CSV importer?)

[aeg via gnucash-user]

Thank you to those who have tried to educate me on the use of the word "split" 
in GnuCash, but whilst I believe that I understand how it is being used, the 
reason for using such an ambiguous term remains puzzling when better 
alternatives exist.
I have a piece of wood that has a split in it caused by uneven shrinkage. It is 
one piece of wood with one split. If I choose to propagate that split by 
forcing a wedge or axe into it, I end up with two pieces of wood and the split 
suddenly disappears. The split has not magically turned into two splits and if 
I plane the edges of the two pieces of wood there will be no evidence that the 
split ever existed.
I understand that GnuCash has been developed on the basis of double entry 
bookkeeping, which I believe gets its name from the fact that the details of 
every transaction are entered at least twice; I regard this as duplicated entry 
rather than split entry. For a simple transaction there is no splitting 
involved; all of the money passes from one account to another and is simply 
recorded in both accounts. The only transactions involving splits are those 
where a sum of money leaves the source account and is shared between two (or 
more) destination accounts or where the money from two (or more) source 
accounts passes to one destination account; these could truthfully be thought 
of as a split transactions or compound transactions.
Most confusion arises from using the word "split" to describe every ledger 
entry, regardless of whether any splitting has been done. Using the term 
"ledger entry" or simply "entry" to describe the constituent parts of a 
transaction works consistently, whereas using the term "split" to describe the 
same thing does not.
The term "double entry bookkeeping" makes sense, whereas the term "double split 
bookkeeping" does not, but that is how GnuCash appears to be defined.
Despite my comments above, I do like using GnuCash and appreciate the efforts 
made by its developers, but whenever I try to encourage others to use it, the 
perceived steep learning curve is the first concern and the use of confusing 
terminology doesn't help.
Kind regards,
Alan

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Re: [GNC] The Meaning of Split (previously Example of multi-split feature of CSV importer?)

[Liz]

On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 22:04:55 + (UTC)
aeg via gnucash-user  wrote:

> Thank you to those who have tried to educate me on the use of the
> word "split" in GnuCash, but whilst I believe that I understand how
> it is being used, the reason for using such an ambiguous term remains
> puzzling when better alternatives exist. 
Every term in English is ambiguous - it's the nature of the language
and why jokes involving language are so prominent.


> I have a piece of wood that
> has a split in it caused by uneven shrinkage. It is one piece of wood
> with one split. 
Split - noun.
Don't forget Split - verb


> If I choose to propagate that split
why did you choose "propagate" rather than "split"

> by forcing a
> wedge or axe into it, I end up with two pieces of wood and the split
> suddenly disappears. 
No, the split has now enlarged to a point at which you can ignore it.


> The split has not magically turned into two splits
No, there is no magic. You still have a single split, but instead of it
being partial it is a complete split.


> and if I plane the edges of the two pieces of wood there will
> be no evidence that the split ever existed.
Cosmetic only.
We all know that it didn't grow like that, it was part of a bigger
whole, and that at the sawmill they made multiple splits to make logs.


Alan, 
we are trying to present a number of different points of view, please
look at these different points of view.

Liz
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Re: [GNC] Example of multi-split feature of CSV importer?

[Patrick]

Thank you again for this helpful information.

I did have one other question about this. When I enter a split transaction
directly into GnuCash (by using the "Split" button), it allows me to give
each split of that transaction its own description. Since - if I understood
your explanation properly - the CSV importer uses the "Description" field
to group consecutive transactions in the same split, does this mean that
when I am importing transactions using "multi-split," that I can't give
each split of the same transaction its own description, as I can when I am
entering them manually?

Regards,
Patrick

On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 11:36 AM Patrick  wrote:

> That makes sense. Thank you for the very helpful response and the example.
>
> Regards,
> Patrick
>
> On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 5:45 AM Geert Janssens 
> wrote:
>
>> Op zondag 17 maart 2019 00:55:38 CET schreef Patrick:
>>
>> > I would like to import split transacations from a CSV file. Based on the
>>
>> > help balloon for it, the "multi-split" option seems to be the way to do
>>
>> > this, but I am not sure how to use this option. Is there an example
>>
>> > somewhere of how to use this option?
>>
>> >
>>
>> > To be specific, what I don't understand is that when the multi-split
>> option
>>
>> > is disabled, I can set one column in the CSV to be the "Account", and
>>
>> > another column to be the "Transfer Account". Setting these two columns
>>
>> > allows me to specify the "credit" and "debit" accounts involved in the
>>
>> > transaction. However, when I enable the multi-split option, the option
>> to
>>
>> > set a "Transfer Account" goes away. So, I am not sure how to specify the
>>
>> > second of the two accounts involved with the transaction when
>> multi-split
>>
>> > is enabled.
>>
>>
>>
>> First off, strictly speaking each transaction is "multi-split" as even
>> the simplest transaction (a transfer from one account to another) has two
>> splits: one in the source account and one in the target account. The split
>> itself doesn't know about the transfer. It only knows which account it
>> belongs to.
>>
>>
>>
>> As a real example is always more helpful, let's assume a transaction that
>> transfers $100 from Account A to Account B. This would be represented with
>> two splits:
>>
>>
>>
>> Transaction date 2019-03-18
>>
>> Transaction description "Transfer"
>>
>> Split 1: Account A $100 (Withdrawal)
>>
>> Split 2: Account B $100 (Deposit)
>>
>>
>>
>> Converting this in a multi-split csv file that can be imported would
>> yield something like this:
>>
>> Date,Description,Account,Deposit,Withdrawal
>>
>> 2019-03-18,Transfer,Account A,,100
>>
>> 2019-03-18,Transfer,Account B,100,
>>
>>
>>
>> As you can see there is no need for a "Transfer Account" column in this
>> case. Each split is associated with one account, you only have to define
>> that account. GnuCash will use the transaction related fields (in this case
>> only "Date" and "Description") to detect transaction boundaries. As both
>> fields are identical on each line, GnuCash will assume both splits to be
>> part of the same transaction.
>>
>>
>>
>> The single-line import format is a shorthand that can only be used in
>> case of transactions with at most two splits. For that situation each line
>> represents such a full transaction and hence may hold information to define
>> two splits. For that reason it also provides two Account assignments
>> options (Account and Transfer Account) as each split in that transaction
>> can have one. So the above translated into a single line csv file would
>> look like this:
>>
>>
>>
>> Date,Description,Account,Transfer Account,Deposit
>>
>> 2019-03-18,Transfer,Account B,Account A,100
>>
>>
>>
>> You could say the single line import format is a special case to simplify
>> most imports from bank accounts while the multi-split format is more
>> generic and the only format that will ever be able to import multi-split
>> (that is more than two splits) transactions (1).
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Geert
>>
>>
>>
>> (1) Note there are currently issues with the csv importer for
>> multi-currency imports or stock imports. These will eventually be resolved
>> allowing the multi-split format to import every kind of transaction gnucash
>> supports internally.
>>
>
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Re: [GNC] The Meaning of Split (previously Example of multi-split feature of CSV importer?)

[David Cousens]

Michael et al,

I suspect that whether we use a term like entry or split, we will no doubt find 
circumstances in which the usage can
become confusing or ambiguous. Entry can also mean a number of different things 
depending upon the context. What is
perhaps more important is to define what is meant by such a term when used in 
GnuCash and define the context in which
that definition applies. Then we can provide back references to that definition 
in the documentation so what is meant is
clear. I personally found split confusing when I first came across it as there 
were several other common usages in the
financial literature, but I quickly moved past that once I had established a 
definition and context for that definition
in my head. Split has also made it into Intuit's usage as well (equally 
undefined)

I think 20 years of history is sufficient reason to stay with the current usage 
(which is also prevalent throughout the
code base) provided we have an unambiguous definition for split and the context 
in which it applies in the documentation
and adequate reference to that definition throughout the documentation.

David Cousens 


On Thu, 2019-03-21 at 18:17 +, Michael Hendry wrote:
> > On 21 Mar 2019, at 15:15, Adrien Monteleone 
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > I’m not sure ‘ledger entry’ is a prime choice either. If we were to 
> > consider the pen and paper world, this is done
> > as a ‘journal entry’ but that entry always has two components (debit and 
> > credit) with at minimum two accounts
> > involved. I’m going to dig up my accounting textbook and see how they 
> > reference the entries but I’m going to hazard
> > an early guess that there is no mention of the individual parts of the 
> > transaction other than debit/credit.
> 
> Just checked my ancient primer, which starts a new business with a 
> contribution of £3000 of capital from John Brown to
> the Cash Account.
> 
> Two ledger pages are created, one called “Cash Account” numbered “L1" and the 
> other “Capital Account - John Brown”
> numbered “L2”.
> 
> On the Debit side of L1 there is a entry recording Capital of £3000 received 
> from L2.
> 
> On the Credit side of L2 there is a corresponding entry of a transfer of Cash 
> to L1.
> 
> These two separate but linked “Ledger Entries" make up the one “Transaction".
> 
> I’d be surprised if the overall process is different in the US, but the 
> nomenclature might well diverge.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Michael
> 
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Adrien
> > 
> > > On Mar 21, 2019, at 9:46 AM, D via gnucash-user 
> > >  wrote:
> > > 
> > > It seems circular to say that there is a distinction between a simple and 
> > > compound transaction, and then say a
> > > simple transaction is a special case compound transaction. Then we're 
> > > back at defining the difference between,
> > > say, a "split" transaction versus a "multi-split" transaction, which 
> > > we're trying to move away from as justifiably
> > > confusing.
> > > 
> > > Calling one a "simple" transaction, and the others "compound" seems like 
> > > enough. Perhaps the explanation of the
> > > technical aspects of this (i.e., the structure of a two sided simple, as 
> > > opposed to an n-sided {n>2} compound
> > > transaction), could use the term "split," as it is defined by  Gnucash. 
> > > This would disambiguate the use of the
> > > term "split," such that it would only be used for this specific case. 
> > > 
> > > Regardless, I am still against the "Ledger entry" locution. 
> > > 
> > > Perhaps we need a translation from American English to British English...
> > > 
> > > David
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > ___
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> 
> 
> 
> ___
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-- 
Dr David R Cousens
B.Sc, M.Prof. Acc., Ph.D., G.C.Ed

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Re: [GNC] Example of multi-split feature of CSV importer?

[David Cousens]

Patrick,

When the Transaction is opened with the split button, the Description field 
name should change to Memo. There are other
changes in the headings as described in the documentation (
https://www.gnucash.org/docs/v3/C/gnucash-help/trans-multi-enter.html). If my 
understanding is correct, each split of a
transaction has its own Memo field while the Description field is attached to 
the transaction which consists of 2 or
more splits. The same description should also come up if you open the 
transaction in another register that there is a
split to.  You can enter different information in the Memo field if you wish. 

I think the importer matches on the Description field for the transaction by 
tokenizing its content and matching to the
tokenized forms of the description field of existing transactions which is 
weighted along with the matching of amounts,
dates, etc. I don't think the Memo field is involved in matching AFAIK but I 
haven't checked the code out to see. Geert
may be able to comment on that as he is more familiar with the code than I am.

I think you can specify the Memo field in the multisplit format as well as the 
Description field. I am away from home at
the moment so I can't check for sure.

David



On Sat, 2019-03-23 at 19:07 -0500, Patrick wrote:
> Thank you again for this helpful information.
> 
> I did have one other question about this. When I enter a split transaction
> directly into GnuCash (by using the "Split" button), it allows me to give
> each split of that transaction its own description. Since - if I understood
> your explanation properly - the CSV importer uses the "Description" field
> to group consecutive transactions in the same split, does this mean that
> when I am importing transactions using "multi-split," that I can't give
> each split of the same transaction its own description, as I can when I am
> entering them manually?
> 
> Regards,
> Patrick
> 
> On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 11:36 AM Patrick  wrote:
> 
> > That makes sense. Thank you for the very helpful response and the example.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Patrick
> > 
> > On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 5:45 AM Geert Janssens 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > Op zondag 17 maart 2019 00:55:38 CET schreef Patrick:
> > > 
> > > > I would like to import split transacations from a CSV file. Based on the
> > > > help balloon for it, the "multi-split" option seems to be the way to do
> > > > this, but I am not sure how to use this option. Is there an example
> > > > somewhere of how to use this option?
> > > > 
> > > > To be specific, what I don't understand is that when the multi-split
> > > 
> > > option
> > > 
> > > > is disabled, I can set one column in the CSV to be the "Account", and
> > > > another column to be the "Transfer Account". Setting these two columns
> > > > allows me to specify the "credit" and "debit" accounts involved in the
> > > > transaction. However, when I enable the multi-split option, the option
> > > 
> > > to
> > > 
> > > > set a "Transfer Account" goes away. So, I am not sure how to specify the
> > > > second of the two accounts involved with the transaction when
> > > 
> > > multi-split
> > > 
> > > > is enabled.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > First off, strictly speaking each transaction is "multi-split" as even
> > > the simplest transaction (a transfer from one account to another) has two
> > > splits: one in the source account and one in the target account. The split
> > > itself doesn't know about the transfer. It only knows which account it
> > > belongs to.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > As a real example is always more helpful, let's assume a transaction that
> > > transfers $100 from Account A to Account B. This would be represented with
> > > two splits:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Transaction date 2019-03-18
> > > 
> > > Transaction description "Transfer"
> > > 
> > > Split 1: Account A $100 (Withdrawal)
> > > 
> > > Split 2: Account B $100 (Deposit)
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Converting this in a multi-split csv file that can be imported would
> > > yield something like this:
> > > 
> > > Date,Description,Account,Deposit,Withdrawal
> > > 
> > > 2019-03-18,Transfer,Account A,,100
> > > 
> > > 2019-03-18,Transfer,Account B,100,
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > As you can see there is no need for a "Transfer Account" column in this
> > > case. Each split is associated with one account, you only have to define
> > > that account. GnuCash will use the transaction related fields (in this 
> > > case
> > > only "Date" and "Description") to detect transaction boundaries. As both
> > > fields are identical on each line, GnuCash will assume both splits to be
> > > part of the same transaction.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > The single-line import format is a shorthand that can only be used in
> > > case of transactions with at most two splits. For that situation each line
> > > represents such a full transaction and hence may hold information to 
> > > define
> > > two splits. For that reason it also provides two Account assi