[gentoo-user] [OT] KDE desktop vanishing
Hello list, Does anyone know why, sometimes, when I log in to KDE via KDM, all my applications have disappeared? Sometimes they're visible in the task bar but clicking on one doesn't bring it up, and sometimes the task bar is blank. Sometimes logging out and in again used to fix it, nowadays mostly not. The only thing that's unaffected by all this is gkrellm, which is set to behave as a dock or panel. It's as though a new Activity had been created without action by me, but no amount of fiddling with the New Activity button gets me any closer to an understanding. Personally, I'd be happy to have the whole concept of activities stripped out. I don't suppose there's any way for me to do anything like that as a user or sysadmin? This happened to me again yesterday, and I ended up creating a new user from scratch and importing e-mails, copying the .mozilla and .opera directories and so on - only to find that that's been hidden today as well. -- Rgds Peter
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] KDE desktop vanishing
On Wednesday, November 05, 2014 10:31:39 AM Peter Humphrey wrote: > Hello list, > > Does anyone know why, sometimes, when I log in to KDE via KDM, all my > applications have disappeared? Sometimes they're visible in the task bar but > clicking on one doesn't bring it up, and sometimes the task bar is blank. > Sometimes logging out and in again used to fix it, nowadays mostly not. > > The only thing that's unaffected by all this is gkrellm, which is set to > behave as a dock or panel. > > It's as though a new Activity had been created without action by me, but no > amount of fiddling with the New Activity button gets me any closer to an > understanding. Personally, I'd be happy to have the whole concept of > activities stripped out. I don't suppose there's any way for me to do > anything like that as a user or sysadmin? > > This happened to me again yesterday, and I ended up creating a new user from > scratch and importing e-mails, copying the .mozilla and .opera directories > and so on - only to find that that's been hidden today as well. I haven't seen this behaviour myself. Do you also copy the ".kde" folder back? -- Joost
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] KDE desktop vanishing
On Wednesday 05 November 2014 12:32:53 J. Roeleveld wrote: > On Wednesday, November 05, 2014 10:31:39 AM Peter Humphrey wrote: > > Hello list, > > > > Does anyone know why, sometimes, when I log in to KDE via KDM, all my > > applications have disappeared? Sometimes they're visible in the task bar > > but clicking on one doesn't bring it up, and sometimes the task bar is > > blank. Sometimes logging out and in again used to fix it, nowadays mostly > > not. > > > > The only thing that's unaffected by all this is gkrellm, which is set to > > behave as a dock or panel. > > > > It's as though a new Activity had been created without action by me, but > > no > > amount of fiddling with the New Activity button gets me any closer to an > > understanding. Personally, I'd be happy to have the whole concept of > > activities stripped out. I don't suppose there's any way for me to do > > anything like that as a user or sysadmin? > > > > This happened to me again yesterday, and I ended up creating a new user > > from scratch and importing e-mails, copying the .mozilla and .opera > > directories and so on - only to find that that's been hidden today as > > well. > > I haven't seen this behaviour myself. > > Do you also copy the ".kde" folder back? If you mean .kde4, no I don't copy that, on the assumption that it would include whatever quirk had caused my vanishing-desktop problem. -- Rgds Peter
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] KDE desktop vanishing
On Wednesday 05 November 2014 13:26:11 I wrote: > On Wednesday 05 November 2014 12:32:53 J. Roeleveld wrote: > > On Wednesday, November 05, 2014 10:31:39 AM Peter Humphrey wrote: > > > Hello list, > > > > > > Does anyone know why, sometimes, when I log in to KDE via KDM, all my > > > applications have disappeared? Sometimes they're visible in the task bar > > > but clicking on one doesn't bring it up, and sometimes the task bar is > > > blank. Sometimes logging out and in again used to fix it, nowadays > > > mostly not. > > > > > > The only thing that's unaffected by all this is gkrellm, which is set to > > > behave as a dock or panel. > > > > > > It's as though a new Activity had been created without action by me, but > > > no > > > amount of fiddling with the New Activity button gets me any closer to an > > > understanding. Personally, I'd be happy to have the whole concept of > > > activities stripped out. I don't suppose there's any way for me to do > > > anything like that as a user or sysadmin? > > > > > > This happened to me again yesterday, and I ended up creating a new user > > > from scratch and importing e-mails, copying the .mozilla and .opera > > > directories and so on - only to find that that's been hidden today as > > > well. > > > > I haven't seen this behaviour myself. > > > > Do you also copy the ".kde" folder back? > > If you mean .kde4, no I don't copy that, on the assumption that it would > include whatever quirk had caused my vanishing-desktop problem. Now this is getting weirder. Just now I followed the clicks to create a new activity, then chose "Clone current activity" and lo! and behold! my desktop sprang into view. What the devil is going on? How many "activities" do I now have? -- Rgds Peter
[gentoo-user] Re: The end of
Michael Orlitzky gentoo.org> writes:
> This is exactly the problem we're trying to solve (and I'm sorry to hear
> it, many of us have been in a similar position).
Yep.
The point is not to "bemoan" the issue, but steer gentoo into a direction
where those who are not devs (for whatever reason) can easily contribute
to creating and maintaining a richer diversity of (ebuild) sofware
packages on Gentoo. Nothing is this movement prevents the good_old_dev
club from propering; it just allows the user community to build out
their systems, as they like. Devs can help, or stand aside, but
blocking (Gentoo) users form making their systems what they want
should be "celebrated" because that is the essential core value
of Gentoo, imho.
> Herds as a group of developers have always been very poorly-defined. As
> I've heard it repeated, originally packages were supposed to belong to
> herds, and developers were supposed to belong to projects. But herds
> almost always had an associated email address, so people who cared about
> groups of packages would add themselves to the herd to get on the email
> alias. But projects were there all along, too, and we wound up with a
> bunch of people in herds who were never going to fix bugs and some
> smaller number of people in projects (who might fix bugs) that weren't
> in the herds. It was all very confusing, so the council is voting to
> replace them with something that makes sense.
Finally. I understand that herds and projects, although not completely
the same thing, have so much overlap that both are not needed. Cleaning
out the cruft {} is a major step in revitalizing the Gentoo distro, imho.
> Basically we want to fix the situation we have right now where it's
> impossible to tell who is actually working on Java packages. Once herds
> are replaced, you should be able to get an accurate reading out of
> metadata.xml and/or the wiki page. (And I'm sure anyone actually working
> on Java would appreciate your help.)
One problem I see is there is not a "one to one" mapping of the herds
to projects. There is a clustering herd and some are still active devs,
but the herd has no balls (a bunch of steers?). I proposed that that
group be migrated to a project and was told that somebody in the cluster
herd (a dev) would have to make that effort (sending a one sentence email).
If they are not interested, how do a group of users become the cluster project?
Right now, most cluster related codes are worked on by the science herd/project.
> For you personally, I would try to find one or two people on the Java
> project (actually working on Java right now) and explain to them that
> you'd like to help close old bugs. Then you can CC or reassign the Java
> bugs to those people. When bug mail gets sent to a herd or project, it's
> too easy to say "screw it, someone else will deal with it." Bugs
> addressed to me personally get attention much sooner, even if only for
> psychological reasons. So reassigning those to a single person might
> prompt action sooner than you'd get otherwise.
Can you send me their gentoo mail addresses, privately?
I understand that we are all a bunch of volunteers. I get it, having
bootstrapped 6 companies myself over the years. I appreciate all
of the former and current devs. I do not wish to be a burden on anyone.
That said, I'm a team builder and would prefer to get users to do the
vast majority of the work, with me. If folks (kids) want to become
a gentoo dev, *thats great*; I just want a gentoo distro where *I* can
get done what I want and a dev community that either supports my vision(s)
or builds the core tools, systems and infrastructure that makes my
efforts and the efforts of other users, an enjoyable experience with Gentoo.
Sure some will migrate to the gentoo dev status, that's great. For me
I'd have to *see the changes* before going down that road again. Just look
at those old bugs for Java, You can "flush" them all older that 2010
without issue, in one blasted email, deprecation define stroke. I'm
not waisting any more time on that crap. If you doubt this, start searching
out those old bugs and find me one from pre-2010 that is still relevant;
also report how many you looked at before you found one that is still
relevant?
Facilitating an easy, straightforward, with plenty of examples for user
to patch (gentoo-tree) ebuilds on their systems, to setup there own, git
hub repository and clearly document examples of how to hack ebuilds, would
go a long way to making the user base very happy, imho. There are efforts,
but they are mostly "piece_meal", imho. If this finally emerges, you have
too many (qualified) applicants for gentoo dev and you'll have a very happy
user base; which will grow the gentoo adoptions vastly around the net.
Crib to Palace (or as the brothers would say, Mom's crib to my crib
aka crib-2-crib). But I'm not convince that the rank a file devs of gentoo
want to empower the user communityh to that level. Being older,
[gentoo-user] Re: Nagios testers wanted
Michael Orlitzky gentoo.org> writes: > We're collecting more and more Nagios bugs every day, and we've been > stuck on the 3.x series for a while even though upstream has moved to 4.x. > The main problem as far as I can see is that nagios-plugins is a big > mess, and it's hard for any one person to test. (We use it at work, but > there's no ipv6 there, or ldap, or snmp, or game servers...) Um, I'm not up on the results of the Nagios user revolt (fork) from a few years ago. Maybe if you clarify that recent history more folks would be interested in Nagios? > I've rewritten the nagios, nagios-core, and nagios-plugins ebuilds, and > will eventually ask permission to commit them to ~arch. That will rip > the band-aid off, so to speak, after which I can work on addressing the > existing bugs. But before I do, I'd like to have a few people test it > and tell me it works. Let's make a deal. Lots of folks are trying to get Nagios running on Mesos/spark as a cluster based tool. Have your (hacks) efforts focoused on runnning Nagios on a mesos/spark cluster? My good friend and dev-in-making Alec has graticiouly put working versions of both mesos and spark on his git_tub_club collection: https://github.com/trozamon/overlay/tree/master/sys-cluster http://caen.github.io/hadoop/user-hadoop.html#spark > So if anyone is using nagios, please give these a try. I think the Nagios user community is now splintered (it's been a while since I looked at Nagios seriously) cause the "main dude" became such a *F!zt* so that most users left his fiefdom. Has that changed? Do illuminate the recent history of Nagios, please? Something in the net-analyzer realm needs to be modified to run on a cluster. Mesos is the future of clustering, imho. There are many other cool codes that can run on a cluster for a killer-attraction-app for gentoo: Tor, passwd crackers, video farms, web servers, forensic-analysis, just to name a few. Personally, I've had excellent results with jffnms, but others find it limited. If you spend some time illuminating why nagios is now stable (users happy with devs) then you'd likely attract some grunts (testers) for your efforts. I sure the cluster community would greatly appreciate a version of nagios running on mesos. Nagios and systemd suffer quite a lot from the same disease, imho. They surely display quite similar symptoms. hth, James
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Nagios testers wanted
On 11/05/2014 11:42 AM, James wrote: > > Um, I'm not up on the results of the Nagios user revolt (fork) from > a few years ago. Maybe if you clarify that recent history more folks > would be interested in Nagios? If no one is interested, that's great -- I can push my changes with reckless abandon =) I'm not up-to-date either, but Nagios is still in the tree, and we still use it, so I'd like to clean up a bit. > Let's make a deal. Lots of folks are trying to get Nagios running > on Mesos/spark as a cluster based tool. Have your (hacks) efforts > focoused on runnning Nagios on a mesos/spark cluster? At the moment I'm just trying to clean up the existing ebuilds so that we can jump to the newest major version. There are a ton of other things that need to be fixed, but I'm not going to work on them without a nice clean starting point. If the 4.x bump doesn't break existing, working, setups, then hopefully I can just commit it and start on this list: https://bugs.gentoo.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=nagios Porting it to a cluster (whatever that involves) would come after the version bump. > I think the Nagios user community is now splintered (it's been > a while since I looked at Nagios seriously) cause the "main dude" > became such a *F!zt* so that most users left his fiefdom. Has that > changed? Do illuminate the recent history of Nagios, please? > You give me too much credit. I know that it forked into Icinga, but Nagios is still being developed upstream. We use it as a glorified `ping` that likes to wake me up at 4am, and it still works just fine for that, so I haven't worried too much about the politics.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: The end of
On 11/05/2014 10:55 AM, James wrote: > >> For you personally, I would try to find one or two people on the Java >> project (actually working on Java right now) and explain to them that >> you'd like to help close old bugs. Then you can CC or reassign the Java >> bugs to those people. When bug mail gets sent to a herd or project, it's >> too easy to say "screw it, someone else will deal with it." Bugs >> addressed to me personally get attention much sooner, even if only for >> psychological reasons. So reassigning those to a single person might >> prompt action sooner than you'd get otherwise. > > > Can you send me their gentoo mail addresses, privately? > I didn't have anyone in mind, it really isn't easy to figure out who's active right now. Two things I would try: 1. See who's active in the Java overlay. This one's easy. $ git clone git://git.overlays.gentoo.org/proj/java.git $ cd java $ git log 2. Check who's been making commits under dev-java. $ cd $PORTDIR/dev-java $ find ./ -name ChangeLog | xargs ls -l -h -t That should give you a list of ChangeLogs, newest first. YOu can look through them and see who's been doing what. I'm sure there's a better way using CVS, but I don't know it. Once you find a few people, just ask politely in #gentoo-java on IRC.
[gentoo-user] Re: Nagios testers wanted
Michael Orlitzky gentoo.org> writes:
> that, so I haven't worried too much about the politics.
Us old farts, call that:: wisdom. Surely you are wise.
That said, over the years, the dispostion of the main{}
is everything in a project. Even with projects that lack
coders, but have vision. Sooner or later a "coder" comes
along and cleans things up. But, vision, is indispensable
in all things software, imho.
I certainly appreciate your efforts and your keen insight.
James
[gentoo-user] Re: The end of
Michael Orlitzky gentoo.org> writes: > 1. See who's active in the Java overlay. This one's easy. >$ git clone git://git.overlays.gentoo.org/proj/java.git >$ cd java >$ git log agreed. > 2. Check who's been making commits under dev-java. >$ cd $PORTDIR/dev-java >$ find ./ -name ChangeLog | xargs ls -l -h -t > > That should give you a list of ChangeLogs, newest first. YOu can > look through them and see who's been doing what. I'm sure there's a > better way using CVS, but I don't know it. Yep, done this and more, but, thanks. Oh, since you took the trouble to include syntax in your response, dozens-hundreds of folks are now enabled to check up on what we have been talking about, quite easily! > Once you find a few people, just ask politely in #gentoo-java on IRC. Here is where I stopped; just before going on the gentoo-java channel. I have some other things to fix/finish first. Besides I'm really curious to see how the herd/project/bugs-wranglers ends up being organized after the "herds" are gone. It think that the few weeks after this seminal event occurs will yeild a richly active gentoo-user community again. I hope we can sustain that energy. Couch it as "a gift to the user community" from the devs and you'll see lots of interest and sustained growth in participation at all levels. Also you did not Let me make this crystal clear. All devs should be allowed a manor, a castle and some authorities the rest of us users (commoners) do not have. It is the reward for becoming a dev. However nothing in that reward (from the council to the devs) should interfere with users from building their own co-op withing the gentoo infrastructers. A round table if you like all that English-Historical-Parlance. (no offense Neil). *Celebrate the users* by working to give them the tools (and respect) they need as the collect with other gentoo_ers. Give them a seat at the table too. It only takes a few keen devs to pull this off. Just look at the amazing work Sven has done with the docs, the wiki and SElinux. peace && prosperity, James
[gentoo-user] Re: The end of
James tampabay.rr.com> writes: > Also you did not OOps, I was interrupted here. Should have been: Also, you did not illuminate how I can form a cluster project, if the exisiting cluster-herd does not request to be converted to the gentoo cluster-project. Surely we have a container project now, but no active cluster herd or project. I think that is very important, so if one does not materialize, then how do users (commoners) go about creating one? Please keep this question in mind as the devs/council solve the final state of herd_vs_projects. James
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: The end of
On Wed, Nov 5, 2014 at 2:14 PM, James wrote: > > Surely we have a container project now, but no > active cluster herd or project. I think that is very > important, so if one does not materialize, then how > do users (commoners) go about creating one? Please keep > this question in mind as the devs/council solve the final > state of herd_vs_projects. > Well, officially projects can be started by any dev. We don't really have a formal process for projects run by users only. However, if a bunch of users want to do something serious I wouldn't let that be a reason to stop. By all means self-organize on any of the lists (gentoo-user, gentoo-project, gentoo-dev as appropriate), and if there is something standing in the way of accomplishing something we can see what we can do to facilitate. In any FOSS activity the #1 issue tends to be people willing to do the work. If we have that, then there is no reason to let anything else stand in the way. There are devs who are willing to proxy-maintain, and if you just need a dev to put a page up on the wiki to call it a project I'm sure somebody would be willing... -- Rich
[gentoo-user] Re: The end of
Rich Freeman gentoo.org> writes: > > Surely we have a container project now, but no > > active cluster herd or project. > In any FOSS activity the #1 issue tends to be people willing to do the > work. If we have that, then there is no reason to let anything else > stand in the way. There are devs who are willing to proxy-maintain, > and if you just need a dev to put a page up on the wiki to call it a > project I'm sure somebody would be willing... Rich Well well well. Thank you for standing up. I'm going to privately work on this (cluster folks, java folks and science folks) whilst your team of devs figures out the final configuration of devs/projects/bug-wranglers. If you guys are successful in pulling this off, I have noticed several corporations with many gentoo-java-ebuilds that might throw a few crumbs our way. Java has sunken to such a low level on gentoo, that companies that use Java && Gentoo rarely bother with contributing back. I cannot speak for them, but I know they watch and listen from time to time. Java is every bit as big and important as python is, from a worldly perspective. Gentoo_ers that wish to be relevant, cannot merely wish this away. Java is a fundamental, enabling technology and it should be robustly supported by those within gentoo that care (Despite anything Whoracle does). Yes I am stepping up for this need, mostly because it is in my critical path now. I guess I'm acting like a dev now? Cursed-Beloved? I'm most willing to support others that want to pursue the cluster work that is needed. I shall give them every opportunity to lead (those of us newer to the cluster arena). But in the end, I'm about getting the work done one way or another. I do appreciate you and Michael for your efforts on this and other gentoo issues. I'm trying to be "collegial" but, I have my viking heretical issues, like some other over_achievers we all know. One way or another we'll have a robust gentoo cluster offering; I'm just not sure how long it will take, but we are going to have some fun! Maybe we'll run cinelerra/blender on the gentoo clusters and build some "anime" comics of the gentoo dev characters? Clustering will be a blast! There is one who has done amazing things with clustering codes and anime on gentoo clusters already; but he remains aloof from gentoo. He is also quite young. thx, James
Re: [gentoo-user] using python 2.7
On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 18:01:57 -0600, Dale wrote: > For future reference, make sure nothing depends on whatever version of > python you want to remove before you remove it. If you don't, it could > get very interesting in a really bad way. The simplest way to do that, with any package you want to remove, is to use emerge --depclean --ask -v cat/pkg instead of emerge --unmerge --ask cat/pkg With depclean, dependencies are checked and the package will only be removed if nothing depends on it. Adding the -v shows you what depends on it. -- Neil Bothwick By the time you can make ends meet, they move the ends. pgp0DawQZyhv5.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] KDE desktop vanishing
Peter Humphrey wrote: > On Wednesday 05 November 2014 13:26:11 I wrote: >> If you mean .kde4, no I don't copy that, on the assumption that it would >> include whatever quirk had caused my vanishing-desktop problem. > Now this is getting weirder. Just now I followed the clicks to create a new > activity, then chose "Clone current activity" and lo! and behold! my desktop > sprang into view. > > What the devil is going on? How many "activities" do I now have? > I had something weird like this about ever since KDE4 was brought in that finally got fixed. I use the "Folder" layout on mine. Just about every time I would login, no folders. Sometimes I could logout and back in and they would show up. Usually I had to right click, select the edit menu and change something and hit apply for them to show back up. This had been going on for a really long time. Then a few months ago, I noticed they started working again. I don't recall doing anything that made it do it but a good while back I did rename the .kde4 directory and get a fresh start. Point is, sometimes KDE does something weird and eventually they get around to fixing it. It sure is annoying until they get it fixed tho. Have you checked to see if there is a bug reported on the KDE bug tracker? If you can't figure it out and sure it is not a setting of your own, may want to file one. Given that you tried a fresh .kde4 directory, I don't see how it could be something you did. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Nagios testers wanted
On 11/05/2014 11:42 AM, James wrote: > > Let's make a deal. Lots of folks are trying to get Nagios running > on Mesos/spark as a cluster based tool. Have your (hacks) efforts > focoused on runnning Nagios on a mesos/spark cluster? My good friend > and dev-in-making Alec has graticiouly put working versions of both > mesos and spark on his git_tub_club collection: > > https://github.com/trozamon/overlay/tree/master/sys-cluster > > http://caen.github.io/hadoop/user-hadoop.html#spark > > Disclaimer: None of my ebuilds (especially Spark) are terribly great; at most they get the job done. The Spark ebuild even uses *gasp* maven. After this experience, I have a great deal of sympathy for the Java herd. All of the large projects that rely on the JVM that I've dealt with (eclipse, hadoop, hive, spark) organize themselves in such a way that makes them look extremely difficult to package. Thanks to all the Gentoo developers, actually. I can't imagine how much time you guys put into this stuff. Alec P.S. dev-in-making? haha, I have too many radical ideas to be accepted as a Gentoo dev. Symptom of being a young 'un, probably. Don't have near enough experience quite yet.
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] KDE desktop vanishing
Am 05.11.2014 um 11:31 schrieb Peter Humphrey: > Hello list, > > Does anyone know why, sometimes, when I log in to KDE via KDM, all my > applications have disappeared? Sometimes they're visible in the task bar but > clicking on one doesn't bring it up, and sometimes the task bar is blank. > Sometimes logging out and in again used to fix it, nowadays mostly not. > > The only thing that's unaffected by all this is gkrellm, which is set to > behave > as a dock or panel. > > It's as though a new Activity had been created without action by me, but no > amount of fiddling with the New Activity button gets me any closer to an > understanding. Personally, I'd be happy to have the whole concept of > activities stripped out. I don't suppose there's any way for me to do > anything > like that as a user or sysadmin? > > This happened to me again yesterday, and I ended up creating a new user from > scratch and importing e-mails, copying the .mozilla and .opera directories > and > so on - only to find that that's been hidden today as well. > have you tried restarting plasma? Or switched screens? i have occasionally lost programms from the task bar, switching desktops brought them back.
[gentoo-user] Re: Nagios testers wanted
On 11/05/2014 09:42 AM, James wrote: > Us old farts, call that:: wisdom Is that Haskell?
[gentoo-user] Re: Nagios testers wanted
walt gmail.com> writes: > > On 11/05/2014 09:42 AM, James wrote: > > Us old farts, call that:: wisdom > > Is that Haskell? Maybe. My new linguas are Scala and R on Spark [1]. And those have me burried alive. My sleep hours have me cast in a sparse matrix schema. Haskill :: beyond my scope escape clause :: I'm sticking with it Besides, Haskill is definately beyound my pay_grade. ps (I dont do annotation type :: first date better? [1] https://spark.apache.org/
Re: [gentoo-user] using python 2.7
On Wed, 2014-11-05 at 20:59 +, Neil Bothwick wrote: > On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 18:01:57 -0600, Dale wrote: > > > For future reference, make sure nothing depends on whatever version of > > python you want to remove before you remove it. If you don't, it could > > get very interesting in a really bad way. > > The simplest way to do that, with any package you want to remove, is to > use > > emerge --depclean --ask -v cat/pkg > > instead of > > emerge --unmerge --ask cat/pkg > > With depclean, dependencies are checked and the package will only be > removed if nothing depends on it. Adding the -v shows you what depends on > it. It should also be noted that running --depclean on a specific package *ONLY* removes that package. After depcleaning a specific package, you should run --depclean again to remove any dependencies of that removed package: emerge --depclean --ask -v cat/pkg emerge --depclean --ask The alternative (at least for packages not in a selected set) is to emerge --deselect cat/pkg emerge --depclean --ask This will, oddly enough, deselect the package from being wanted or "selected", allowing it to be depcleaned, along with its own dependencies, if no other packages depend on it. Both methods require two commands, so mostly there's no real difference; and in this case depcleaning python:$SLOT is probably better as it's essentially saying you want to explicitly remove it if it's not required; but for normal packages (or multiple packages - it's quicker) I personally prefer deselecting then depcleaning. Just my two small monetary amounts :) -- wraeth signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
