Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 6/19/10 8:43 AM, Patrick Lauer wrote: > As long as it doesn't get actively hostile we can continue with a > pretty large amount of friction. Read the archives of this mailing > list if you want to see how much :) I think that is the point. Is just not being actively hostile a success? I'd say that a really friendly community is much more, and reducing friction seems to be a good goal to create such a community. Moreover, we don't just want to get along with ourselves. We want to encourage other people to join our community. We want to prevent people more sensitive to the tone (I think it's actually a good thing) from leaving. Because we lose their technical contributions as well (if that's the only thing you care about). > The only thing you should do is fix things, not yell at me :) Please remember about the human side of the equation. A large portion of Gentoo is just keeping it in technically good shape. In my opinion it's the task we're doing pretty well, probably because everybody agrees this is important. What we should improve, are the human communication skills (including mine, eh). > Just let us get things done in an efficient way - maybe a bit more > politeness helps that, but sugarcoating everything won't. I agree. We're still a technical-focused community, but we should not forget about politeness. Paweł signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
[gentoo-dev] Re: Tone in Gentoo
Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto posted on Sat, 19 Jun 2010 03:20:08 + as excerpted: > you're confusing talk and jokes between developers on a particular > private room with tone between members of the global community in public > mediums. It's possible that's the case. However, it's also the case that with such content, whatever consent there may have been between present parties previously, as soon as one person present asks that it stop and it does not, it's sexual harassment. Evidently, one person present, regular or not, asked that it stop, and it didn't, ergo... Regardless of whether it was acceptable before that, it certainly was not, after that. That's not the sort of situation, private or not, that I'd be proud to say I was a part of, or would like to try to explain to my kid, my parent, or my girlfriend/wife, particularly after one party present evidently asked that it stop, and it didn't. It does not make me proud to say I run Gentoo. -- Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 06/19/2010 09:10 AM, "Paweł Hajdan, Jr." wrote: > I think that is the point. Is just not being actively hostile a success? Given our past, yes. Given the size of our project, yes. The sheer size of the project guarantees that not everybody will like everyone. They merely get along and no thread will change that fact. Maybe a developer get-together like they happen here in the German conspiracy and elsewhere will, but that's not something you can force-feed others. > Moreover, we don't just want to get along with ourselves. We want to > encourage other people to join our community. I want and will train people who want to scratch their personal (technical) itches in gentoo to become a developer. "Joining the community", otoh, takes as much as a /join #gentoo or logging into the forums. Yes, you can do that just for fun and that's totally fine. If something prevents users from "joining the community" in this way, UserRel should have a look at it. Nothing new here. But all examples of "tone" I've seen in this lengthy thread revolve around developer (particularly infra/devrel) communications. As has been said before, the two should not be confused, as they are different problems and have different solutions. As for the latter problem, Jorge and Patrick have said all there is to say about the issue. > What we should improve, are the human communication skills (including > mine, eh). This is nothing "we" can improve. I can't magically improve anyone's communication skill (and hell, I wish someone could fix mine!). Everyone decides if that's something he or she wants or needs to work on and how. Personally, I've observed that leading by example works best here. So please join me in killing some bugs (gently) today, kthx? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Tone in Gentoo
On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 09:00:26AM +, Duncan wrote: > Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto posted on Sat, 19 Jun 2010 03:20:08 + as > excerpted: > > > you're confusing talk and jokes between developers on a particular > > private room with tone between members of the global community in public > > mediums. > > It's possible that's the case. However, it's also the case that with such > content, whatever consent there may have been between present parties > previously, as soon as one person present asks that it stop and it does > not, it's sexual harassment. Evidently, one person present, regular or > not, asked that it stop, and it didn't, ergo... I ask y'all to stop this unproductive line of discussion. Via your logic, aparently regardless of the sanity of the request, it must be followed. Bluntly, this logic, this conversation, and Sebastian sticking his nose into people joking with eachother in in #-infra is blown seriously out of proportion (for reference I was the one who stated "sorry, but _you're_ the one not finding it funny"). The PC level inplicit in this is farcical enough it belongs in a monty python sketch. Hell, even the exherbo smackdown earlier on ciaran was out of proportion (his points were valid and civil, even if you don't agree with them). Simply put, you gauge your tone dependant on your surroundings. You don't go into a funeral chanting Carlin's 7 words you can't say on television, and you do not go into someone's home and tell them what they can/cannot say. If you cannot understand this simple fact, then you're going to have many, many ackward social interactions with the rest of humanity. Why? Because you're going around telling other people how *you* want them to act, instead of what is *communally* agreed to. Tolerance cut's both ways. The people making the noise on this thread seem to be missing the bidirectional nature however. Finally, take the thread to -project... it's well past being even remotely technical. ~harring pgp6rvNj8EfpK.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 19 June 2010 09:10, "Paweł Hajdan, Jr." wrote: > On 6/19/10 8:43 AM, Patrick Lauer wrote: >> As long as it doesn't get actively hostile we can continue with a >> pretty large amount of friction. Read the archives of this mailing >> list if you want to see how much :) > > I think that is the point. Is just not being actively hostile a success? > I'd say that a really friendly community is much more, and reducing > friction seems to be a good goal to create such a community. > > Moreover, we don't just want to get along with ourselves. We want to > encourage other people to join our community. We want to prevent people > more sensitive to the tone (I think it's actually a good thing) from > leaving. > > Because we lose their technical contributions as well (if that's the > only thing you care about). This is a point that deserves more consideration. One of the top reasons (as witnessed in forum discussions) many people are not getting more involved and volunteering to become developers is the level of in-fighting and the ineffective way that bullies and other poisonous people are being dealt with. Does Gentoo really prefer to keep more sensitive people out instead of effectively getting rid of repeat offenders? Think about it. What kind of people would you rather have in Gentoo? Cheers, Ben
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
Jorge, On 06/19/10 05:20, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote: > you're confusing talk and jokes between developers on a particular > private room with tone between members of the global community in public > mediums. It wasn't #gentoo-roughshit, it was in #gentoo-infra - the place devs go on infra matters. To the outside of Gentoo it may be a private channel, to Gentoo itself it is not (or should not be) a private channel. I can expect proper tone from an infra related channel just like from #gentoo-doc. > You're also missing an important point that some channels have their own > environment and so one should start by understanding it. Furthermore, > pushing for change and or imposing one's view on an established channel > is not a "nice" way to deal with the residents of that channel. > Another thing you've just done and should be aware of, is that you chose > to air into the public private conservations. When any Gentoo developer > decides to reveal a private discussion in the core ml or some other > private medium into the general public without the other parties > knowledge and or consent, that developer is abusing the other members' > "trust". If #gentoo-infra bangs their moms the rest of the community deserves to know. I didn't mention names or anything implying specific participants to the outside. > You have shown to be very attached to this topic, so much so that you've > just blown this completely out of proportion. There was no "foul play" > intended in that conservation I was more or less told to fuck off if I don't like the tone. This is where I left the channel. How will I be able to tell women on LinuxTag 2010 that we do want women in Gentoo with such tone in #gentoo-infra? Best, Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 8:37 AM, Sebastian Pipping wrote: > I was more or less told to fuck off if I don't like the tone. Please watch your language, this is a public mailing-list. Denis.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 8:28 PM, Denis Dupeyron wrote: > On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 8:37 AM, Sebastian Pipping wrote: >> I was more or less told to fuck off if I don't like the tone. > > Please watch your language, this is a public mailing-list. > I think that now we've come full-circle, and rendered half the original goals of this thread m00t. And while I still have everyone's attention, I'd like to point out that the tone of people on a small channel restricted to devs-only; a place 90% of devs will never end up in, is not where I would start my crusade. If the participants of this discussion really want to make Gentoo a gentler and nicer place to be, I would suggest that they start with places that will actually make a difference. For example, gentoo-dev ML, gentoo-project (where this discussion should have taken place), gentoo-user, #gentoo-dev, #gentoo-soc (where a lot of our recruits come from), #gentoo, the forums, the planet, etc. No, really, flaming #gentoo-infra on the gentoo-dev mailing list is silly, useless *and* ironic (in this case). And to everyone who is getting very angry right now, please refrain[1]. 1. They might even want to read this blog post someone made in a tiny corner of the internet: http://is.gd/cVrxM -- ~Nirbheek Chauhan Gentoo GNOME+Mozilla Team
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
Nirbheek, On 06/19/10 17:34, Nirbheek Chauhan wrote: > No, really, flaming #gentoo-infra on the gentoo-dev mailing list is > silly, useless *and* ironic (in this case). It's not about the infra team, it's about communication in the #gentoo-infra channel. All of "silly, useless *and* ironic" could use an explaination, at least to me. Best, Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
Jeremy, On 06/19/10 06:45, Jeremy Olexa wrote: > On 06/18/2010 09:25 PM, Sebastian Pipping wrote: > >>In #gentoo-infra > > #gentoo-infra is a private channel and you don't have to be in there. No > public community members/users are in there. The "tone" can be anything > that is acceptable to the normal inhabitants of said channel. #gentoo-infra is a channel on infra matters. The fact that it's developers only doesn't make it a private channel in a sense of "tone doesn't matter". > I *strongly* feel that > instead of threads like this, people can, and should be, leading by > example and recruiting people that show similar feelings. Leading by example doesn't work with tone. Being the politest one in group of people insulting each other will not make them change tone. > As Patrick > said[2], back to bug fixing and using time wisely. Fixing bugs addresses the technical layer. Again, technical is not our problem: non-technical is. Best, Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 06/19/10 08:43, Patrick Lauer wrote: >> Now that's tone in Gentoo. Brilliant. > > And you're ugly! > > Hey, you're doing it yourself. You're using sarcasm (I assume you do, > otherwise the positive "Brilliant." doesn't fit in the context of "Oh > dear, these rude people said that!") You got me. Replace "brilliant" with "That's sad". > > So don't try to force a consensus and get everyone to play by > teletubby sunshine happy happy rules. > Just let us get things done in an efficient way - maybe a bit more > politeness helps that, but sugarcoating everything won't. This thread has never been about making things up. > And never forget, I don't care if you're upset that I filed 35 bugs for > you. If you mean what you say: that's pretty insensitive. Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Tone in Gentoo
Brian, On 06/19/10 11:37, Brian Harring wrote: > and you do not go into someone's home and tell them > what they can/cannot say. right. #gentoo-infra is not anybody's home though: it's an infra-matter channel of Gentoo. If you like to view it as anybody's home it's home of Gentoo and therefore my home, too. > If you cannot understand this simple fact, then you're going to have > many, many ackward social interactions with the rest of humanity. > > Why? Because you're going around telling other people how *you* want > them to act, instead of what is *communally* agreed to. It seems we're just about finding out what is commonly agreed to. You are absolutely right: if that tone we had in #gentoo-infra yesterday is more agreed to in Gentoo than a friendly, non-sexist interaction I might be wrong around here and asking for changes is pointless, correct. Best, Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 19-06-2010 16:15, Sebastian Pipping wrote: > Jeremy, > > > On 06/19/10 06:45, Jeremy Olexa wrote: >> On 06/18/2010 09:25 PM, Sebastian Pipping wrote: >> >>>In #gentoo-infra >> >> #gentoo-infra is a private channel and you don't have to be in there. No >> public community members/users are in there. The "tone" can be anything >> that is acceptable to the normal inhabitants of said channel. > > #gentoo-infra is a channel on infra matters. > The fact that it's developers only doesn't make it a private channel in > a sense of "tone doesn't matter". Sebastian, you've failed to notice an important point that others have already tried to convey to you - #gentoo-infra is the home of the Gentoo infra team. Yes, developers go there to address infra issues on Gentoo, but it is the infra team channel and not the channel of every Gentoo developer. Furthermore, the fact you consider it insulting, doesn't make it necessarily insulting. Also that tone was used between other developers who know each other very well and wasn't directed at you. You acted like you were entitled to set rules for behaviour in another team's channel. It must not surprise you if the people there weren't too pleased or impressed. >> As Patrick >> said[2], back to bug fixing and using time wisely. > > Fixing bugs addresses the technical layer. > Again, technical is not our problem: non-technical is. That is your opinion and a perfectly reasonable one. It doesn't mean everyone shares your opinion or that everyone agrees with your proposals to address that problem. > Best, > > Sebastian - -- Regards, Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.15 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJMHPkoAAoJEC8ZTXQF1qEP4x8P/jks8hJoPnuI678V8asEA8Zo MGaai0HgcKaI5VMBreWKXSPW+j12ACuxlQlqDTJFsWNGWyNeE3aJLohMS0V84XxW hih/TQlC8I8r3OXo6kTE7TkjJS3zFyUxWM0TIJToAH0a9C8nCULm+iIFMs4dixue BMCjO+lJx2HL62Uf91TDuCl7PobJ1yLpFhSNtnw0WMKnxYZJN9F+ZRjnknw8GBB6 0ok/q36oCchK/E/lf5lZSSbUHrR4FiZNB/pySuLSrQmF1a3SLLwEFeC2TWywcBqr rswRrupiriVRMtWrc1DcOeOH0gH9ni4s5BvOOKSdBMLIJ3bIGrojoiSL0BD8Ml09 scb7eyGWRJfCiH9w+ppPsE/+SaBc/i4jTv1XbxNDalceAzKt8mu73I+XN/aGBbcS MKpU+JLX2WQihR8gNInZjPWDCgZfssUiubGeOIKALAQ+exQObiuFWjp3irky/Wy7 J8kxu10qJpCrinumjRzyZk5yKX3LFBdqGMi9hL0Gyb9yCzfCFwnqJ/cjv40ySamG VSFwR5y+Lkwz+xWzlMBZJuaZSnWPn26RU8svry3Dd1wVWZDYQSJMhyJAUqh95qVm p/uwCyLVahWcrfbwtNcM03NqQJPsgsLKjmuZmHRmH9yCKtNGytxnT01/+3P8fZJ7 fDPH53tF5k60tsDqFHwS =fVgn -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 9:32 PM, Sebastian Pipping wrote: > On 06/19/10 17:34, Nirbheek Chauhan wrote: >> No, really, flaming #gentoo-infra on the gentoo-dev mailing list is >> silly, useless *and* ironic (in this case). > > It's not about the infra team, it's about communication in the > #gentoo-infra channel. All of "silly, useless *and* ironic" could use > an explaination, at least to me. > * It is silly because this is an insignificant matter compared to the bigger problems. * It is useless because you're approaching this in a completely wrong way; being vehement doesn't convince anyone. * It is ironic because by flaming the people on that channel in a public manner, you are degrading the tone of this mailing list. In fact, by doing what you are doing, you are alienating people who once supported your cause, and wanted to help. You cannot cause change without widespread support. You cannot convince people of your opinions by insulting them, or repeating your arguments emphatically. I advise you to take a break to cool off and think for a while about how you are approaching this. To make someone understand your PoV, you must first understand their PoV and *empathize* with it. -- ~Nirbheek Chauhan Gentoo GNOME+Mozilla Team
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 06/19/2010 01:06 PM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote: On 19-06-2010 16:15, Sebastian Pipping wrote: #gentoo-infra is a channel on infra matters. The fact that it's developers only doesn't make it a private channel in a sense of "tone doesn't matter". you've failed to notice an important point that others have already tried to convey to you - #gentoo-infra is the home of the Gentoo infra team. Yes, developers go there to address infra issues on Gentoo, but it is the infra team channel and not the channel of every Gentoo developer. Perhaps he didn't fail to notice this point, but rather he just disagrees with it? The fact is that #gentoo-infra is part of the Gentoo linux distribution. It belongs to every Gentoo developer, or at least legally to every Gentoo foundation member. Conduct on this channel reflects on all Gentoo developers. It really does bother me that everybody is lining up to defend this kind of behavior. If the response had been - sorry, I guess the joking got out of hand I'd say, ok, well, let's try to do better but let's all move on. I don't see offensive behavior using Gentoo IDs/IRC Cloaks/media as a trivial matter. It sets the overall tone of the distro, which is what this thread is all about. I've heard several devs over the years comment that they love contributing to Gentoo, but they'd never put it on their resume. Who can blame them? I know that if I ever were hiring somebody and they pointed out that they were a Gentoo dev, I'd tend to assume that their technical knowledge was pretty good but you can be assured I'd do quite a bit of digging around to figure out if they're somebody I'd want working on my team. Unless somebody is so good that you'd be fine if they were the only person working for you, then they're not too good to pass over. Rest assured that if you hire and keep certain people, sooner or later they WILL be the only ones working for you... I don't think that most Gentoo devs behave in this way. I think a lot of people care about trying to fix this. I don't think it is asking too much for Gentoo devs to try to keep their behavior reasonably professional when using Gentoo media, or Gentoo emails/cloaks/etc. No need to start burning people at the stake for slip-ups, but let's at least try to agree that we'd like to be associated with a somewhat professional-acting distribution? Rich
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 06/19/2010 06:54 AM, Ben de Groot wrote: This is a point that deserves more consideration. One of the top reasons (as witnessed in forum discussions) many people are not getting more involved and volunteering to become developers is the level of in-fighting and the ineffective way that bullies and other poisonous people are being dealt with. Does Gentoo really prefer to keep more sensitive people out instead of effectively getting rid of repeat offenders? ++ http://www.mefeedia.com/watch/30301159 http://opensourcebridge.org/sessions/216 We don't need one-strike-and-you're-out, but tone does matter. Rich
[gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo Council 2010/2011 - Nominations are now open
>> Nominations for the Gentoo Council 2010/2011 are now open for the next >> two weeks (until 23:59 UTC, 18/06/2010). > I'd like to nominate betelgeuse, calchan, and ssuominen (no way you're getting > out of here that easy). thanks for nominating, but i'll decline - Samuli
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
> If #gentoo-infra bangs their moms the rest of the community deserves to > know. Oh? What do you do at night with your girlfriend (or boyfriend or yourself)? The community deserves to know! > > You have shown to be very attached to this topic, so much so that you've > > just blown this completely out of proportion. There was no "foul play" > > intended in that conservation > I was more or less told to fuck off if I don't like the tone. > This is where I left the channel. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. > How will I be able to tell women on LinuxTag 2010 that we do want women > in Gentoo with such tone in #gentoo-infra? You might be surprised to hear that I know more women that don't care or would laugh at such stuff (albeit possibly laughing more about the immature people stating such nonsense) than those who would be offended. Best regards, Wulf signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Moving unmaintained packages to Sunrise
Am 13.06.2010 22:36, schrieb Duncan: > Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto posted on Sun, 13 Jun 2010 14:26:26 + as > excerpted: > >> there was a proposal to create a sunset overlay, like the java team used >> and now kde uses as well. The purpose of this overlay would be to keep >> the packages that are removed from the tree because they have no >> maintainers. As was discussed back then, the people wishing to work on >> sunrise are likely not interested in having all the removed packages >> dumped in their shoulders. Besides, sunrise is about packages that have >> an interested user submitting and hopefully maintaining ebuilds for new >> packages, while sunset is likely to become a dumping ground for stuff >> that we can't find anyone to take care of. If we want to find a way to >> not drop the maintainer-needed packages, I'd prefer we move them to >> sunset and not to sunrise. As this overlay is likely to become large, >> probably "huge", and as it will host security vulnerable packages, we >> should evaluate whether we really want to host it and, if so, what >> measures to take to protect "distracted users". I think package masking >> all the packages put there with links to relevant bugs might be a first >> step. > > You obviously read the proposal differently than I did. MG can pop in and > say what he intended, but as I read it, and why I said "++", is... > > We change the policy of sunrise, not to be a dumping ground for /all/ tree- > cleaned packages, but to allow interested users who see that a package > they're interested in is unmaintained, to add it to (the unpublic part of) > sunrise before the package is removed and potentially before it's even > masked for removal, such that it can be approved and ready to "go public" > in sunrise at the same time it's removed (or even when masked for removal) > from the main tree. > > So packages wouldn't be dumped there without a maintainer. The only ones > that would qualify would be those where a user actively proposes to > maintain them in sunrise, the idea being that in some instances (as with > the posted example), they can be maintained better there than they can be > proxy-maintained in-tree. > > Apparently, sunrise has been around long enough, now, that there has been > at least one package that started in sunrise, was added to the tree, then > the person who added it lost interest or retired... and now it's rotting > in the tree, and the same user that put it in sunrise before is still > interested in it and has updated ebuilds, etc, but can't easily get > proxies to commit the new ebuilds to the tree. From my read, that was > apparently what sparked the post and whole proposed change. > I think, your proposed way is already possible. The policy of sunrise is only to not dublicate packages in main tree. If they will surely be dropped and this fact can be seen in public, e.g. because of the announcement and mask, i have no problems with users joining #gentoo-sunrise and maintaining that package in sunrise overlay. You should just remember, that those, who want to add the unmaintained package to sunrise, should also plan to maintain it there, sunrise will not become a place to move broken packages to ;-) -- Thomas Sachau Gentoo Linux Developer signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 12:54:25 +0200 Ben de Groot wrote: > This is a point that deserves more consideration. One of the top > reasons (as witnessed in forum discussions) Unfortunately, that's selecting a rather biased audience. The success of a forum depends upon the number of active posters it has. The number of active posters it has depends upon how many people need to post there to get answers to questions, and how many wrong answers have to be given before the right answer comes up. Thus, by selecting from the forums, you're picking an audience that likes talking endlessly about communities, not one that likes to answer a question once, correctly, and then change things so the question doesn't need to be answered again. > Does Gentoo really prefer to keep more sensitive people out instead > of effectively getting rid of repeat offenders? All bringing more sensitive people in does is cripples the distribution's ability to delivery any technical improvements, since everyone's time is wasted worrying about the whiners. And let's face it, the sort of people who moan about that kind of thing are going to find a reason to moan no matter what. > Think about it. What kind of people would you rather have in Gentoo? Personally, I'd like to see Gentoo start having the kinds of people who deliver a better product, not the kinds of people who worry that using a gender-ambiguous cow as a logo might be offensive. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
Ben de Groot wrote: On 19 June 2010 09:10, "Paweł Hajdan, Jr." wrote: On 6/19/10 8:43 AM, Patrick Lauer wrote: As long as it doesn't get actively hostile we can continue with a pretty large amount of friction. Read the archives of this mailing list if you want to see how much :) I think that is the point. Is just not being actively hostile a success? I'd say that a really friendly community is much more, and reducing friction seems to be a good goal to create such a community. Moreover, we don't just want to get along with ourselves. We want to encourage other people to join our community. We want to prevent people more sensitive to the tone (I think it's actually a good thing) from leaving. Because we lose their technical contributions as well (if that's the only thing you care about). This is a point that deserves more consideration. One of the top reasons (as witnessed in forum discussions) many people are not getting more involved and volunteering to become developers is the level of in-fighting and the ineffective way that bullies and other poisonous people are being dealt with. Does Gentoo really prefer to keep more sensitive people out instead of effectively getting rid of repeat offenders? Think about it. What kind of people would you rather have in Gentoo? Cheers, Ben I would like to say this to the list and then I have no plans to say anything else. This is NOT directed at Ben either, just picked this to reply to. I would love to learn how to do some programing and help Gentoo. I been using Gentoo since the 1.4 days. I'm not a genius and I don't even claim to know a lot much less everything. Thing is, I was here several years ago when even this mailing list was basically out of control. Are things better, you dang right they are. They are hugely better. Are they where they should be, nope. A lot of progress has been made but it still is not like it should be. If I owned Gentoo and it was my pride and joy, I wouldn't tolerate some of the things that are said. Since most people here have jobs, would your boss knowingly allow some of the things said here or on private lists to continue, or would someone be looking for a job? I don't want a answer, just some to think about the question a bit. I understand that people here are volunteers too. No need to point that out. Thing is, it doesn't matter if you volunteer or not. I volunteer for a lot of things locally but I won't volunteer for Gentoo. I just happen to like the OS. I wouldn't continue to volunteer for the local things if I had to deal with some things that happen on the lists either. Again, it has improved a lot or I wouldn't be subscribed at all. My hats off to the ones that got it this far. To Sebastian, the mailing list has improved a lot and there are still occasions where things happen that shouldn't. The changes you want are going to be difficult if not impossible. Make the decision that I made, either let things get better over time then join in or if you feel like it, try to help change them slowly. If you expect this to change anytime soon, you will only disappoint yourself. I fear it will eventually lead to a lawsuit from somebody then things will change. Eventually, someone will go to far and then Gentoo will be at least partially on the hook for it and be forced to change. I'm not saying Gentoo would or should lose but the costs of the defense will force a change. Most small organizations like Gentoo can't afford but one bite out of that apple. As some have said in the past, the mailing list and such do belong to Gentoo. Therefore, Gentoo would be accountable for its part of what happens on them. The lawyers will argue that Gentoo allowed it to continue and therefore permitted it to happen. Again, may not work but Gentoo would still have to foot the bill to defend itself. My $0.02 worth for the day and that ain't much. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 06/19/10 19:50, Wulf C. Krueger wrote: >> If #gentoo-infra bangs their moms the rest of the community deserves to >> know. > > Oh? What do you do at night with your girlfriend (or boyfriend or yourself)? > The community deserves to know! My point was about the style of communication in there, not about sex. I could have said "If #gentoo-infra operates in such tone [..]" alternatively. >>> You have shown to be very attached to this topic, so much so that you've >>> just blown this completely out of proportion. There was no "foul play" >>> intended in that conservation >> I was more or less told to fuck off if I don't like the tone. >> This is where I left the channel. > > If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. Or make the kitchen a place to be, right. > You might be surprised to hear that I know more women that don't care or > would > laugh at such stuff (albeit possibly laughing more about the immature people > stating such nonsense) than those who would be offended. According to my female source Lena Simon some women seem to rather laugh about such things with men around and do the opposite in female-to-female discussions. We have so few women in Gentoo that that alone makes me doubt your point. Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 06/19/10 19:59, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: >> This is a point that deserves more consideration. One of the top >> reasons (as witnessed in forum discussions) > > Unfortunately, that's selecting a rather biased audience. The success > of a forum depends upon the number of active posters it has. The number > of active posters it has depends upon how many people need to post > there to get answers to questions, and how many wrong answers have to > be given before the right answer comes up. Thus, by selecting from the > forums, you're picking an audience that likes talking endlessly about > communities, not one that likes to answer a question once, correctly, > and then change things so the question doesn't need to be answered > again. This may apply to easy and/or 99%-technical problems with a dictator around. That's not what we have here. It's two black-and-white for my taste, too. >> Does Gentoo really prefer to keep more sensitive people out instead >> of effectively getting rid of repeat offenders? > > All bringing more sensitive people in does is cripples the > distribution's ability to delivery any technical improvements, Looking at it the other way around: with more sensitive people around, collaboration would work better potentially leading to less loss of time and energy and therefore quicker arrival of improvements. >> Think about it. What kind of people would you rather have in Gentoo? > > Personally, I'd like to see Gentoo start having the kinds of people who > deliver a better product, not the kinds of people who worry that using > a gender-ambiguous cow as a logo might be offensive. I don't consider that comment respectful. Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 19-06-2010 17:40, Richard Freeman wrote: > On 06/19/2010 01:06 PM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote: >> On 19-06-2010 16:15, Sebastian Pipping wrote: >>> #gentoo-infra is a channel on infra matters. >>> The fact that it's developers only doesn't make it a private channel in >>> a sense of "tone doesn't matter". >> >> you've failed to notice an important point that others have already >> tried to convey to you - #gentoo-infra is the home of the Gentoo infra >> team. Yes, developers go there to address infra issues on Gentoo, but it >> is the infra team channel and not the channel of every Gentoo developer. > > Perhaps he didn't fail to notice this point, but rather he just > disagrees with it? > > The fact is that #gentoo-infra is part of the Gentoo linux distribution. > It belongs to every Gentoo developer, or at least legally to every > Gentoo foundation member. Conduct on this channel reflects on all > Gentoo developers. Richard, that channel is as much part of the Gentoo Linux distribution as #gentoo-kde, #gentoo-elections, #gentoo-devrel, #gentoo-forums and many others, including private channels for some teams. I can assure you that if someone goes to #gentoo-forums and tries to tell the forums team what tone should be used in that channel, we'll kindly ask the person to stop or to leave. This is one of the "public" and exposed channels and thus we have a tone with that in mind, but we're not going to set our tone according to the demands of a developer that is not even part of the team. I can convey similar statements about #gentoo-userrel, #gentoo-devrel, #gentoo-elections and many others. I've picked these particular channels as I'm member of these teams, have been for a while, and these are public channels that try to keep an inviting tone as they are very exposed to the community. If someone tried to go to the old userrel private channel and tell the people in the team how to behave in their "backyard", they would likely get a similar response to that used in #gentoo-infra. What would grant any non-member of a team the right to demand how the members of the team should act amongst themselves in their private room? About the "legal right", that isn't true. There are a few misconceptions in your statement. Even though the Foundation is the body which holds the Gentoo brand, trademarks and logo, it's not the Foundation that sets the rules for joining and be part of the Gentoo Developers Community. Furthermore, being a Gentoo developer doesn't mean you can join any team you want or that you have a "right" to go to any #gentoo-* channel. In case you have any doubt, I can give you a list of quite a few channels most developers don't have access to. If you insist, to address the question that access lists for #gentoo-* channels can be set by Freenode (our main IRC network), you should know that the only people Freenode will listen to regarding that are the members of the Freenode Gentoo Group Contacts. The people in that group were not chosen by the Foundation nor do they respond to it. Also, please never forget that being part of Gentoo is a "privilege" and not a "right". > It really does bother me that everybody is lining up to defend this kind > of behavior. If the response had been - sorry, I guess the joking got > out of hand I'd say, ok, well, let's try to do better but let's all move > on. I don't see offensive behavior using Gentoo IDs/IRC Cloaks/media as > a trivial matter. It sets the overall tone of the distro, which is what > this thread is all about. I'm not defending "your-mom jokes" nor a "harsh tone" in Gentoo. I'm trying to explain the difference between joking amongst friends on your house and making insulting comments directed towards individual members or a global community in the public. The #gentoo channel has had a long time policy of clean language as it can be and is used by children and it's one of the channels (the one?) with greater exposure to the community. Many of the comments and jokes that are common practice and perfectly reasonable on #gentoo-dev would likely get you a warning in #gentoo. Some #gentoo-* channels impose some restrictions about valid topics for that channel. The #gentoo-ops channel topic is "Discussion of #gentoo issues". The #gentoo-kde channel doesn't want PM discussions. So the appropriate tone for each channel depends of its environment. > I've heard several devs over the years comment that they love > contributing to Gentoo, but they'd never put it on their resume. Who > can blame them? I know that if I ever were hiring somebody and they > pointed out that they were a Gentoo dev, I'd tend to assume that their > technical knowledge was pretty good but you can be assured I'd do quite > a bit of digging around to figure out if they're somebody I'd want > working on my team. Well, this is an option of every Gentoo developer. It's up to each member of the community to decide whether they w
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 20:57:03 +0200 Sebastian Pipping wrote: > This may apply to easy and/or 99%-technical problems with a dictator > around. That's not what we have here. It's two black-and-white for > my taste, too. No, that's the nice thing about delivering a product based upon technical merit: most of the time, there are right answers and there are wrong answers, and careful investigation and good management can lead to it being determined which is which. > > All bringing more sensitive people in does is cripples the > > distribution's ability to delivery any technical improvements, > > Looking at it the other way around: with more sensitive people around, > collaboration would work better potentially leading to less loss of > time and energy and therefore quicker arrival of improvements. Collaboration works when good ideas get kept and bad ideas get dropped. Collaboration fails when good ideas are rejected because people don't like who came up with them or the tone in which they were presented, or when bad ideas are kept around to avoid hurting the feelings of the people who came up with those ideas. > > Personally, I'd like to see Gentoo start having the kinds of people > > who deliver a better product, not the kinds of people who worry > > that using a gender-ambiguous cow as a logo might be offensive. > > I don't consider that comment respectful. But do you consider it to be correct? -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
Ciaran, On 06/19/10 21:16, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > No, that's the nice thing about delivering a product based upon > technical merit: most of the time, there are right answers and there > are wrong answers, and careful investigation and good management can > lead to it being determined which is which. I think you neglect differences in values. Say the degree of backwards-compatibility: there's no wrong nor right without values. Both sides have pros and cons. > Collaboration works when good ideas get kept and bad ideas get dropped. > Collaboration fails when good ideas are rejected because people don't > like who came up with them If you had better tone it would be much easier to accept the good among your ideas. > or the tone in which they were presented, or > when bad ideas are kept around to avoid hurting the feelings of the > people who came up with those ideas. Saying "no" politely is hard, not impossible. >>> Personally, I'd like to see Gentoo start having the kinds of people >>> who deliver a better product, not the kinds of people who worry >>> that using a gender-ambiguous cow as a logo might be offensive. >> >> I don't consider that comment respectful. > > But do you consider it to be correct? No, I don't. I have said "technical is not our main problem" many times. Best, Sebastian
[gentoo-dev] Gentoo Council 2010/2011 - Voting
Team, Everything is in place to allow voting in the above election commence as planned on June 20th at 00:00:00 UTC. The polls will remain open until July 3rd 23:59:59 UTC. Your candidates are:- betelgeuse chainsaw ferringb halcy0n jmbsvicetto patrick phajdan.jr scarabeus sping wired _reopen_nominations Here are the rules: All active Gentoo developers on the roll before nominations opened are eligible to vote. To vote login to dev.gentoo.org and run the following commands: 1. votify --new council201006 - This creates a new ballot in your homedir. 2. Edit the .ballot-council201006 file and rank the candidates. 3. Once you're sure, run votify --verify council201006 to check the validity of the ballot. 4. If that goes through fine, the next and final step is to submit your vote using votify --submit council201006 5. If you're stuck, use votify --help or go to #gentoo-elections (on freenode) and ask officials for help. Votes that are not submitted before the poll closes will not be counted. Good luck and thank you for all your votes. -- Regards, Roy Bamford (Neddyseagoon) a member of gentoo-ops forum-mods trustees elections
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 19 June 2010 19:50, Wulf C. Krueger wrote: >> If #gentoo-infra bangs their moms the rest of the community deserves to >> know. > > Oh? What do you do at night with your girlfriend (or boyfriend or yourself)? > The community deserves to know! Take it somewhere else. We dont want this here. >> > You have shown to be very attached to this topic, so much so that you've >> > just blown this completely out of proportion. There was no "foul play" >> > intended in that conservation >> I was more or less told to fuck off if I don't like the tone. >> This is where I left the channel. > > If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. This is not the kind of attitude we want in Gentoo. >> How will I be able to tell women on LinuxTag 2010 that we do want women >> in Gentoo with such tone in #gentoo-infra? > > You might be surprised to hear that I know more women that don't care or would > laugh at such stuff (albeit possibly laughing more about the immature people > stating such nonsense) than those who would be offended. Sure there are such women. But we also want to extend a welcome to the other women. Cheers, Ben
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-commits] gentoo-x86 commit in dev-python/traits: traits-3.4.0.ebuild
On Thursday, June 10, 2010 16:45:29 Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote: > 2010-06-10 22:20:44 Nirbheek Chauhan napisał(a): > > On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 1:30 AM, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar wrote: > > > 2010-06-10 21:27:40 Jeremy Olexa napisał(a): > > >> I see no reason to *not* add a ChangeLog entry here. > > > > > > ChangeLog entries are not required for trivial changes. > > > > A "trivial" change is fixing a typo, or a manifest problem, a missing > > quotation mark, etc. Anything else is not "trivial". > > > > Anything that changes how an ebuild functions, what it does, or the > > installed files (and/or their contents) is NOT a trivial change. > > This commit only removed some compiler warnings. mucking with CFLAGS without documentation is wrong. compiler warnings come and go, so a flag that was relevant one day could be completely extraneous the next. however, especially with strict aliasing, you arent "just fixing warnings", you're changing optimization behavior of gcc to workaround broken C code. this obviously does not fall anywhere near the "trivial" mark. i see you still havent fixed this, so get on it already. a bug needs to be opened somewhere to get the package properly *fixed*, and your change either out right reverted or add a comment around the flag to indicate the open bug on the issue. append-flags ... #12345 -mike signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
[gentoo-dev] Manifesto for council election
As you've seen, Chainsaw is on the list as a council candidate. I use Gentoo in a professional capacity, as a UNIX systems administrator for one of the largest internet exchanges in the world [1]. Right now, I administer 42 machines running non-multilib hardened AMD64. The topic of "Gentoo in the enterprise" surfaces from time to time on the mailing lists, but the current direction that Gentoo is taking seems to steer away from it. Should you elect me to the council, I will do my best to discourage the frequent usage of overlays. Not only can overlay ebuilds slip through the QA net that is frequently trawled through the main tree (and they often do), the ownership is not always clear. There is no central location to report bugs in overlay ebuilds. Last but not least, moving ebuilds out into overlays means that larger deployments like mine are unable to use them. One other problem that has appeared on my radar more then once lately. When developers lose motivation and stop committing to a package for which they are the sole maintainer it can take a considerable amount of time before this is dealt with in the form of a retirement bug or "last rites" e-mail. With a business dependency on some packages, that can be too long. I believe we should actively seek out such packages and see if another developer can be motivated to take the package over. Failing that, I believe no ebuild is a fairer situation then an outdated/stagnant ebuild with open bugs that are not looked at. Some automated QA processes like the tinderbox already help with this but without official recognition of these bugs as QA matters the full potential of it goes untapped. In writing this, I realise that some or all of what I have just written may be controversial to you. Can I ask that you speak with your vote and not in this mailing list. Regards, Tony "Chainsaw" Vroon 1: https://www.linx.net/about/index.html signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 19 June 2010 19:59, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 12:54:25 +0200 > Ben de Groot wrote: >> This is a point that deserves more consideration. One of the top >> reasons (as witnessed in forum discussions) > > Unfortunately, that's selecting a rather biased audience. The success > of a forum depends upon the number of active posters it has. The number > of active posters it has depends upon how many people need to post > there to get answers to questions, and how many wrong answers have to > be given before the right answer comes up. Thus, by selecting from the > forums, you're picking an audience that likes talking endlessly about > communities, not one that likes to answer a question once, correctly, > and then change things so the question doesn't need to be answered > again. That is an incredibly shortsighted and cynic look at the community. Keep it off this list. >> Does Gentoo really prefer to keep more sensitive people out instead >> of effectively getting rid of repeat offenders? > > All bringing more sensitive people in does is cripples the > distribution's ability to delivery any technical improvements, since > everyone's time is wasted worrying about the whiners Not at all. Instead of wasting time on flamewars, and people getting upset and leaving because of the attacks, we'd have a bunch of people who would know how to work together in a friendly way. That speeds up the process to come to technical improvements. Once again: keep your cynic, twisted look off this list. We have no use for it. >> Think about it. What kind of people would you rather have in Gentoo? > > Personally, I'd like to see Gentoo start having the kinds of people who > deliver a better product, not the kinds of people who worry that using > a gender-ambiguous cow as a logo might be offensive. Once again you are derailing the conversation. Nobody brought up anything about a logo. It is about whether Gentoo wants to keep around people like you, who continually attack others, or whether it prefers to have people who want to work together in a friendlier atmosphere. A smoother cooperation is in the interest of technical improvements too. There already is a distro that works like you envision it. It's called Exherbo. You should try it, you might like it. I would suggest you spend your time and energy on that, and leave Gentoo to do things the friendlier way. Cheers, Ben
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 23:03:31 +0200 Ben de Groot wrote: > That is an incredibly shortsighted and cynic look at the community. > Keep it off this list. I consider that remark disrespectful. By rejecting comments in such an impolite manner, and without explaining why you think the comment is incorrect, you are poisoning the development atmosphere and making Gentoo a hostile place for contributors. > Not at all. Instead of wasting time on flamewars, and people getting > upset and leaving because of the attacks, we'd have a bunch of people > who would know how to work together in a friendly way. That speeds up > the process to come to technical improvements. Once again: keep your > cynic, twisted look off this list. We have no use for it. I would like to know how well that process is working when it comes to delivering EAPI 4. Or, you know... Anything else for that matter... > There already is a distro that works like you envision it. It's called > Exherbo. You should try it, you might like it. I would suggest you > spend your time and energy on that, and leave Gentoo to do things the > friendlier way. That's not very friendly of you. I take it being friendly only applies to other friendly people, and that the second anyone loses their friendliness badge all your friends have to jump on them and tell them to go away? -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 06/19/10 18:20, Sebastian Pipping wrote: >> And never forget, I don't care if you're upset that I filed 35 bugs for >> you. > If you mean what you say: that's pretty insensitive. But I honestly don't care how you _feel_ about a bug. There's a defect. It's a fact. The only way to change it is to work on fixing it. Feelings have nothing to do with it. It doesn't matter how polite or gentle you describe a malfunction. It is and will be a bug. There's no place for emotions when you wish to work with plain boring facts. And again, I do not care how _you_ feel about it. Actually I don't have any preference or emotional connection to most packages. All I care about is that they (1) install properly out of the box and (2) work reasonably. So if I have to file eleventy dozen bugs for packages you maintain ... your fault. Don't leave such a mess. Stop whining and fix those issues. Yeah, maybe that's insensitive. Maybe I'm a bit rude. But it'll make you focus more on doing things properly so I don't even have to bother you in the first place :) And if everyone does a good job it'll be more awesome for all of us.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 06/19/10 23:20, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 23:03:31 +0200 > Ben de Groot wrote: >> That is an incredibly shortsighted and cynic look at the community. >> Keep it off this list. > > I consider that remark disrespectful. By rejecting comments in such an > impolite manner, and without explaining why you think the comment is > incorrect, you are poisoning the development atmosphere and making > Gentoo a hostile place for contributors. Eh what? Ben notices that you're overly negative, and you attack him for noticing it ... in a thread discussing politeness and all that. This is pretty hilarious, but maybe this mailinglist is not the place for wannabe standup comedians. >> Not at all. Instead of wasting time on flamewars, and people getting >> upset and leaving because of the attacks, we'd have a bunch of people >> who would know how to work together in a friendly way. That speeds up >> the process to come to technical improvements. Once again: keep your >> cynic, twisted look off this list. We have no use for it. > > I would like to know how well that process is working when it comes to > delivering EAPI 4. Or, you know... Anything else for that matter... Quite well, thanks for asking. >> There already is a distro that works like you envision it. It's called >> Exherbo. You should try it, you might like it. I would suggest you >> spend your time and energy on that, and leave Gentoo to do things the >> friendlier way. > > That's not very friendly of you. I take it being friendly only applies > to other friendly people, and that the second anyone loses their > friendliness badge all your friends have to jump on them and tell them > to go away? Being the insensitive person I am (as sping has pointed out quite nicely) I'd say that you've shown repeatedly that you are not interested in engaging in a proper discussion. So having some negative karma hit you shouldn't be unexpected. Now please do as Ben said and leave us amateurs with our stupid moronic stuff (as you've pointed out multiple times) to do things wrongly while you have a chance to do them right over there. kthxbai, Patrick P.S. If you find any sarcasm, irony or similar you can keep it. Maybe you can put it to good use at last.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On Saturday 19 June 2010 22:03:31 Ben de Groot wrote: > It is about whether Gentoo wants to keep around people [...] who > continually attack others Considering the number of attacks directed towards Paludis developers (and sometimes users), and lack of corresponding punishment, I can only assume the answer is "yes".
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 06/19/10 23:57, David Leverton wrote: > On Saturday 19 June 2010 22:03:31 Ben de Groot wrote: >> It is about whether Gentoo wants to keep around people [...] who >> continually attack others > > Considering the number of attacks directed towards Paludis developers (and > sometimes users), and lack of corresponding punishment, I can only assume the > answer is "yes". > Look, I know this is pretty redundant ... but ... you're actively stepping in the way of moving fists to complain that people punch you. Stop doing that. Hope that helps you figure out this universe. Take care, Patrick
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
http://xkcd.com/386/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On Saturday 19 June 2010 23:01:33 Patrick Lauer wrote: > you're actively stepping in the way of moving fists to complain that > people punch you. Stop doing that. You mean banning trolls is an invitation for you to snip the trolling and publicly accusing me of banning them on a whim? (excerpt from http://www.gentooexperimental.org/~patrick/weblog/archives/2008-03.html#e2008-03-31T20_31_17.txt) > So things are starting to look quite toasty. The "nice" paludis people even > keep the bad vibes away: > > [17:12:44] *** Mode #paludis +b *...@gentoo/user/FamousToaster by dleverton > [17:13:11] *** Mode #paludis +b d0pamin...@* by dleverton > [17:13:15] <-* dleverton has kicked fragalot from #paludis (bye bye) > [17:13:19] <-* dleverton has kicked D0pamine from #paludis (bye bye) > [17:13:35] *** Mode #paludis -o dleverton by dleverton > > followed by > > 17:19 rane> i'm a gentoo developer relations project member > 17:19 fragalot> Hi. :) > 17:20 rane> and i want to inform you that if you continue to behave the way > you did on #paludis, your gentoo/user cloak will be > removed > > Behaving that way meaning joining the channel and saying "Hi" ? Wow, that's > great. So I must really recommend to users never to go near that place as > they will have firebreathing dragons on their behind within minutes. Or asking for opinions on a technical issue is a form of trolling? http://www.gentooexperimental.org/~patrick/weblog/archives/2008-05.html#e2008-05-03T22_15_54.txt There's plenty more, but I don't think it would be productive to try and track down everything.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On Saturday 19 June 2010 23:05:25 Domen Kožar wrote: > http://xkcd.com/386/ s/wrong/attacking me in public/ and it might be closer.
