[gentoo-dev] FTR: media-opti...@g.o has no developers
For the record, media-optical herd is currently without any devs and also the mail alias in d.g.o is empty so nobody is really reading the bugmail. In case you want to join it... - Samuli
Notify people about empty herds (Was: Re: [gentoo-dev] FTR: media-opti...@g.o has no developers)
El jue, 03-06-2010 a las 13:36 +0300, Samuli Suominen escribió: > For the record, media-optical herd is currently without any devs and > also the mail alias in d.g.o is empty so nobody is really reading the > bugmail. > > In case you want to join it... > > - Samuli Would be possible to modify script that generates http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/metastructure/herds/herds.xml to list empty herds on a different section at the top of the webpage for detecting herds without people easier? Even better would be to also provide information about "devway" developers, indicating something like, for example: 41. gnome - Description GNOME Desktop and related packages - Herd maintainers' email address gn...@gentoo.org - Maintainers ... pa...@gentoo.org (Pacho Ramos) (Devway) But I am not sure if it would be possible :-/ Also, maybe we should consider change the assignment for bugs assigned to empty herds, assigning them to maintainers-needed and CCing affected herd, that way, once somebody revives the herd, he could simply revert the assign to the old way and, until then, people reviewing maintainers-needed bugs would also notice that bug reports. Thanks a lot signature.asc Description: Esta parte del mensaje está firmada digitalmente
Re: Notify people about empty herds (Was: Re: [gentoo-dev] FTR: media-opti...@g.o has no developers)
And maybe it would be a wise move to merge/remove some herds because ,as I see, the number of herds is equal ( or even higher ) to the number of developers. 2010/6/3 Pacho Ramos > El jue, 03-06-2010 a las 13:36 +0300, Samuli Suominen escribió: > > For the record, media-optical herd is currently without any devs and > > also the mail alias in d.g.o is empty so nobody is really reading the > > bugmail. > > > > In case you want to join it... > > > > - Samuli > > Would be possible to modify script that generates > http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/metastructure/herds/herds.xml to list > empty herds on a different section at the top of the webpage for > detecting herds without people easier? > > Even better would be to also provide information about "devway" > developers, indicating something like, for example: > 41. gnome > - Description > GNOME Desktop and related packages > - Herd maintainers' email address > gn...@gentoo.org > - Maintainers > ... > pa...@gentoo.org (Pacho Ramos) (Devway) > > But I am not sure if it would be possible :-/ > > Also, maybe we should consider change the assignment for bugs assigned > to empty herds, assigning them to maintainers-needed and CCing affected > herd, that way, once somebody revives the herd, he could simply revert > the assign to the old way and, until then, people reviewing > maintainers-needed bugs would also notice that bug reports. > > Thanks a lot >
Re: [gentoo-dev] FTR: media-opti...@g.o has no developers
On 06/03/2010 04:36 AM, Samuli Suominen wrote: For the record, media-optical herd is currently without any devs and also the mail alias in d.g.o is empty so nobody is really reading the bugmail. In case you want to join it... Added myself back. Steve
Re: [gentoo-dev] FTR: media-opti...@g.o has no developers
On 06/03/2010 08:12 AM, Steve Dibb wrote: On 06/03/2010 04:36 AM, Samuli Suominen wrote: For the record, media-optical herd is currently without any devs and also the mail alias in d.g.o is empty so nobody is really reading the bugmail. In case you want to join it... Added myself back. But we still need more devs working on it. :) Steve
Re: Notify people about empty herds (Was: Re: [gentoo-dev] FTR: media-opti...@g.o has no developers)
On 6/3/10 3:32 PM, Markos Chandras wrote: > And maybe it would be a wise move to merge/remove some herds because ,as I > see, the number of herds is equal ( or even higher ) to the number of > developers. Here are some more empty herds: 1) kerberos herd is empty :( 2) secure-tunnelling is empty 3) utf8 is empty and looks like a candidate for removal As for other herds, I don't see anything obviously wrong. It seems fine and useful to have a generic alias even if there is only one developer in a herd. Paweł signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Notify people about empty herds (Was: Re: [gentoo-dev] FTR: media-opti...@g.o has no developers)
all the gnome-* herds look obsolete to me. It should be like kde and use only one alias. Further more the comm-fax could be merged with a net-* alias, and all the desktop-* could be merged in one herd. The dev-embedded could be merged with embedded, kernel can merge with kernel-misc. Plus I am sure that we can perform a clean up/merge on net-* herds. Same rule for sci-*. Having 150 herds for 300 *listed* devs doesn't seem optimal On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 5:28 PM, "Paweł Hajdan, Jr." wrote: > On 6/3/10 3:32 PM, Markos Chandras wrote: > > And maybe it would be a wise move to merge/remove some herds because ,as > I > > see, the number of herds is equal ( or even higher ) to the number of > > developers. > > Here are some more empty herds: > > 1) kerberos herd is empty :( > 2) secure-tunnelling is empty > 3) utf8 is empty and looks like a candidate for removal > > As for other herds, I don't see anything obviously wrong. It seems fine > and useful to have a generic alias even if there is only one developer > in a herd. > > Paweł > >
Re: Notify people about empty herds (Was: Re: [gentoo-dev] FTR: media-opti...@g.o has no developers)
On Thursday, June 03, 2010 10:44:10 am Markos Chandras wrote: > kernel can merge with kernel-misc. Please don't do this.
Re: Notify people about empty herds (Was: Re: [gentoo-dev] FTR: media-opti...@g.o has no developers)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 03-06-2010 14:44, Markos Chandras wrote: > all the gnome-* herds look obsolete to me. It should be like kde and use > only one alias. Further more the comm-fax could be merged with a net-* > alias, and all the desktop-* could be merged in one herd. The desktop-effects herd has nothing to do with any of the other desktop herds, so they shouldn't be merged. Just because you don't understand why an herd exists or it looks "obsolete" to you, it doesn't mean it doesn't have a meaning for the people on the herd. - -- Regards, Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.15 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJMB9kQAAoJEC8ZTXQF1qEPIZ8P/RCcVS6XlgKzLeq9bguRzDjf Fy/Ggvi8CnqSi8GWUPsjr+tFq76eBdHrLqp6bGxbENDFfblC8fn/hrjcHQGdRztm N7RjAzS4SzVmD3YSH0HFe1+2wgyTAoLfVGT/KYGdmeKwp9RzDtS2NkHSM0ftfV+y TT3KnJI13pUIdJRY+GGCiodzZFOUZKeqrCiO2p8jbw06MzsNWDzGoPI6wvsB54mM 164tYV1OEWvTCdaUF8E7oImLle43FHfYuY5D/Oda6QqvMI6f01mlSyls+IWHHBL5 6anc91fex9fd71dMULVWA66pWqpuFywfZxUHDqdn9jWEdFJgV8zn6NRxxVuyg4Hd HTGjcajxP7DwH4FX7LplrEExOnFdO1Qxs1bqvwIIajsXiv0EPwdL1+Uhgn/7FV0K HF/WMyikIAybILG1LaOnGgQElqLQ+irRB0GQ7mn71XVlIioU9cWGTrSRpT/0fdXq NH4ZgJER8sKWT0KQlxsmBCj8oMoR5xhEK7FqbjjMXodPu76yJQz8Y+5sBdUc9bh3 mW9aDffQdZoklfCNc+0O2xg3DVt7QQJV2Gp0/vcNt5Ivb76W3WZQYBfOI7HIQPAq QBCg4nLe5cmZoabNCZ3Y3QuUQLAJSyqGl7XxVP/i9QNdzN+EBNKJa/lPQWRceiQV UaGTOvoo1S16OXjBFRa8 =z723 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Notify people about empty herds (Was: Re: [gentoo-dev] FTR: media-opti...@g.o has no developers)
If this is what you understood then ok On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 7:32 PM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto < jmbsvice...@gentoo.org> wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > On 03-06-2010 14:44, Markos Chandras wrote: > > all the gnome-* herds look obsolete to me. It should be like kde and use > > only one alias. Further more the comm-fax could be merged with a net-* > > alias, and all the desktop-* could be merged in one herd. > > The desktop-effects herd has nothing to do with any of the other desktop > herds, so they shouldn't be merged. > Just because you don't understand why an herd exists or it looks > "obsolete" to you, it doesn't mean it doesn't have a meaning for the > people on the herd. > > - -- > Regards, > > Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org > Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v2.0.15 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ > > iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJMB9kQAAoJEC8ZTXQF1qEPIZ8P/RCcVS6XlgKzLeq9bguRzDjf > Fy/Ggvi8CnqSi8GWUPsjr+tFq76eBdHrLqp6bGxbENDFfblC8fn/hrjcHQGdRztm > N7RjAzS4SzVmD3YSH0HFe1+2wgyTAoLfVGT/KYGdmeKwp9RzDtS2NkHSM0ftfV+y > TT3KnJI13pUIdJRY+GGCiodzZFOUZKeqrCiO2p8jbw06MzsNWDzGoPI6wvsB54mM > 164tYV1OEWvTCdaUF8E7oImLle43FHfYuY5D/Oda6QqvMI6f01mlSyls+IWHHBL5 > 6anc91fex9fd71dMULVWA66pWqpuFywfZxUHDqdn9jWEdFJgV8zn6NRxxVuyg4Hd > HTGjcajxP7DwH4FX7LplrEExOnFdO1Qxs1bqvwIIajsXiv0EPwdL1+Uhgn/7FV0K > HF/WMyikIAybILG1LaOnGgQElqLQ+irRB0GQ7mn71XVlIioU9cWGTrSRpT/0fdXq > NH4ZgJER8sKWT0KQlxsmBCj8oMoR5xhEK7FqbjjMXodPu76yJQz8Y+5sBdUc9bh3 > mW9aDffQdZoklfCNc+0O2xg3DVt7QQJV2Gp0/vcNt5Ivb76W3WZQYBfOI7HIQPAq > QBCg4nLe5cmZoabNCZ3Y3QuUQLAJSyqGl7XxVP/i9QNdzN+EBNKJa/lPQWRceiQV > UaGTOvoo1S16OXjBFRa8 > =z723 > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > >
[gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-dev-announce] Packages up for grabs -- xmerlin, yoswink, chtekk, omp, tantive, mueli, bluebird, hncaldwell, caleb
Am Mittwoch, den 02.06.2010, 09:18 +0200 schrieb Torsten Veller: > net-analyzer/nagios-check_logfiles > net-analyzer/nagircbot > net-analyzer/pnp4nagios I'll take this packages. - Tobias -- Praxisbuch Nagios http://www.oreilly.de/catalog/pbnagiosger/ https://www.xing.com/profile/Tobias_Scherbaum signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Notify people about empty herds (Was: Re: [gentoo-dev] FTR: media-opti...@g.o has no developers)
On Thu, 3 Jun 2010 17:44:10 +0300 Markos Chandras wrote: > all the gnome-* herds look obsolete to me. It should be like kde and > use only one alias. Further more the comm-fax could be merged with a > net-* alias, and all the desktop-* could be merged in one herd. The > dev-embedded could be merged with embedded, kernel can merge with > kernel-misc. Plus I am sure that we can perform a clean up/merge on > net-* herds. Same rule for sci-*. Speaking for myself, the net-* and netmon herds are much too diverse to pile onto one big stack. As with the other suggested herd mergers, you'd merely end up piling more work onto unsuspecting developers' desktops, possibly discouraging some of them to dig through all the extra incoming mail. If any changes are made in this respect, it should have the approval of all members of all herds considered for a merger. > Having 150 herds for 300 *listed* devs doesn't seem optimal You could qualify that statement a lot better. I don't see a problem here. Many developers are members of more than one herd, which the simple 2:1 relation you exemplify does not carry out that important bit of information. There is a real problem with herds that have a single or no maintainer, the former mainly because that could very well lead to another case of the latter, and we should certainly address both problems, but we should create as little as possible new problems in the process. Regards, jer
[gentoo-dev] Last rites for games-simulation/secondlife
# Joe Peterson (03 Jun 2010) # Masked for removal in 30 days: # Fails to build with gcc 4.4 (see bug #290105) # Requires non-open-source components that never worked well # - e.g. voice, media # - this (source) package never behaved quite like the binary # Really should be replaced by Snowglobe, which is the OS version # (Note: games-simulation/secondlife-bin will remain for now) games-simulation/secondlife
Re: Notify people about empty herds (Was: Re: [gentoo-dev] FTR: media-opti...@g.o has no developers)
On Thu, Jun 03, 2010 at 04:28:57PM +0200, "Paweł Hajdan, Jr." wrote: > 1) kerberos herd is empty :( FWIW, I proxy maintain app-crypt/heimdal, app-crypt/mit-krb5, app-crypt/mit-krb5-appl and sys-auth/pam_krb5. Thanks to darkside and flameeyes for their help. -- Eray
Re: Notify people about empty herds (Was: Re: [gentoo-dev] FTR: media-opti...@g.o has no developers)
On 3 June 2010 20:54, Jeroen Roovers wrote: > There is a real problem with herds that have a single or no > maintainer, the former mainly because that could very well lead to > another case of the latter, and we should certainly address both > problems, but we should create as little as possible new problems in > the process. Also, there are herds that have several members, but none of them is really active (games, most of the desktop-* herds, etc.). This also leads to users being discouraged because the bugs they file are left ignored. This needs a structural solution. I think we need a team to systematically look at open bugs and to notify the community of such problematic herds. I imagine this would be a QA subproject. Then we also need some structure to redirect some dev love to these problematic areas. We need to advertise these needs more, to get trusted users to proxy-maintain. We need to streamline the recruitment process to make it easier for people who want to volunteer to become devs. And I could go on for a while. There are a lot of areas where Gentoo has a lot of room for improvement, and they all interlock. I believe we need to formulate a vision of what we want Gentoo to be, and then develop strategies of how to get there. Having a team that systematically looks at the state of herds as well as open bugs is --in my opinion-- a crucial first step to adress some of the structural problems that have plagued Gentoo for years. Cheers, Ben
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] an official Gentoo wiki
Am 03.04.2010 15:19, schrieb Ben de Groot: > On 3 April 2010 11:46, Patrick Lauer wrote: >> On 04/03/10 11:16, Tobias Scherbaum wrote: >>> People are constantly asking for a documentation wiki, but ... >> yeah, as long as no one just creates a wiki there won't be one. People >> are waiting on other people, who are waiting for Godot. Just do it. >> >> I remember the long and whiny road to get a blog aggregator - what >> killed the waiting deadlock was simply karltk setting up one (unofficial >> etc.etc.) and suddenly people saw that it was good. > > > Okay, so it seems a lot of people do want a wiki. So let's see what > we can do to make that happen. Just curious: Was something achieved here? Is there a wiki finally? - René signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] an official Gentoo wiki
On 3 June 2010 22:44, René 'Necoro' Neumann wrote: > Am 03.04.2010 15:19, schrieb Ben de Groot: >> On 3 April 2010 11:46, Patrick Lauer wrote: >>> On 04/03/10 11:16, Tobias Scherbaum wrote: People are constantly asking for a documentation wiki, but ... >>> yeah, as long as no one just creates a wiki there won't be one. People >>> are waiting on other people, who are waiting for Godot. Just do it. >>> >>> I remember the long and whiny road to get a blog aggregator - what >>> killed the waiting deadlock was simply karltk setting up one (unofficial >>> etc.etc.) and suddenly people saw that it was good. >> >> >> Okay, so it seems a lot of people do want a wiki. So let's see what >> we can do to make that happen. > > Just curious: Was something achieved here? Is there a wiki finally? The first steps were taken. There is now a wiki project, for which I initially was the project lead. But very soon after that DevRel-member Calchan killed my momentum. I have suspended all my active work on Gentoo until my DevRel issue is resolved. Sadly this also killed the wiki's momentum. From what I understand it is still being worked on, but it moves forward very slowly. Maybe someone from the wiki project could add some more up to date info? Cheers, Ben
Re: Notify people about empty herds (Was: Re: [gentoo-dev] FTR: media-opti...@g.o has no developers)
On Thu, 3 Jun 2010 22:35:04 +0200 Ben de Groot wrote: > Also, there are herds that have several members, but none of them is > really active (games, most of the desktop-* herds, etc.). This also > leads to users being discouraged because the bugs they file are left > ignored. > > This needs a structural solution. I think we need a team to > systematically look at open bugs and to notify the community of such > problematic herds. I imagine this would be a QA subproject. That would basically be a task other than bug-wranglers, but jakub used to do all this and I do it sometimes, among a few others who either just scratch an itch or take a general interest. Maybe the bug-wranglers project can be extended since it at least has some active people (not just developers), but as it now stands there are again 150 unassigned bugs after only a week (up from ~40 since the last reassignment run I believe). "Calling in" QA as such usually isn't really beneficial. > Then we also need some structure to redirect some dev love to these > problematic areas. We need to advertise these needs more, to get > trusted users to proxy-maintain. We need to streamline the recruitment > process to make it easier for people who want to volunteer to become > devs. And I could go on for a while. There are a lot of areas where > Gentoo has a lot of room for improvement, and they all interlock. All these problems seem to come down to the fact that we're understaffed in most departments. Setting up yet another project isn't going to help much. Just looking at open bugs (bugzilla can help you figure out which bugs might need someone's particular attention). What might help right now is look at the herds.xml data and combining that with activity rates of the developers in all herds. Herds with few developers and lots of open bugs is something you could calculate and filter down into a monthly or weekly report you send to a mailing list (probably dev-announce?). > I believe we need to formulate a vision of what we want Gentoo to be, > and then develop strategies of how to get there. Having a team that > systematically looks at the state of herds as well as open bugs is > --in my opinion-- a crucial first step to adress some of the > structural problems that have plagued Gentoo for years. Do you mean we should redefine what Gentoo is about, to satisfy the lack of active developers? Bring down the number of packages? Or address the staff shortage? That last one is rather old, as recruiters have been clamouring for help for years now. Regards, jer
Re: Notify people about empty herds (Was: Re: [gentoo-dev] FTR: media-opti...@g.o has no developers)
On 4 June 2010 00:55, Jeroen Roovers wrote: > On Thu, 3 Jun 2010 22:35:04 +0200 > Ben de Groot wrote: > >> Also, there are herds that have several members, but none of them is >> really active (games, most of the desktop-* herds, etc.). This also >> leads to users being discouraged because the bugs they file are left >> ignored. >> >> This needs a structural solution. I think we need a team to >> systematically look at open bugs and to notify the community of such >> problematic herds. I imagine this would be a QA subproject. > > That would basically be a task other than bug-wranglers, but jakub used > to do all this and I do it sometimes, among a few others who either > just scratch an itch or take a general interest. Maybe the > bug-wranglers project can be extended since it at least has some active > people (not just developers), but as it now stands there are again 150 > unassigned bugs after only a week (up from ~40 since the last > reassignment run I believe). This is indeed not bug-wrangling. It's more "follow-up", making sure things don't fall between the cracks *after* they have been assigned. Because currently they do. Instead of involving more users with development, we discourage them because their bugs are ignored. Especially users who come with fixes and patches should be thanked and encouraged. But too often they are frustrated because their bug is assigned to a dev or herd who is inactive and unresponsive (for possibly very valid reasons) and nobody is picking up the slack. I think we can do better, and I believe there are enough people who care, who would volunteer to form a team to take care of this. > "Calling in" QA as such usually isn't really beneficial. I'm sorry I wasn't clear enough on this point. I'm not "calling in" QA. I say we need to form a new team to tackle this long-standing problem. Like bug-wranglers, these volunteers would not need to be devs, but could just as well be users who want to contribute. And they could be joined by devs, who like me think this is an important issue to address. I think that this new team would naturally find its place within Gentoo as a QA subproject, as this problem has a lot to do with QA concerns. But it could also be linked to bug-wranglers or be independant. That's mostly bikeshedding for me. I think some QA supervision might be beneficial, especially since QA has the authority to step in in certain cases. But let it be clear that I'm NOT saying "this needs to be done, and QA must do it." I'm saying "this needs to be done, and we should ask some people to volunteer." >> Then we also need some structure to redirect some dev love to these >> problematic areas. We need to advertise these needs more, to get >> trusted users to proxy-maintain. We need to streamline the recruitment >> process to make it easier for people who want to volunteer to become >> devs. And I could go on for a while. There are a lot of areas where >> Gentoo has a lot of room for improvement, and they all interlock. > > All these problems seem to come down to the fact that we're > understaffed in most departments. I think we can work on this from two sides: 1: Motivate the people we have. Make their work more efficient. Find out why people are retiring. For people who are retiring for Gentoo-internal reasons, let's improve things so they will be more motivated to stay. 2: Make it easier and more rewarding for people to start contributing. We can expand proxy-maintainership (many users don't even know this is possible). We can reform the recruitment process, so that it will be less of a bottleneck (for example by putting much more responsibility into the hands of our mentors, like we discussed on IRC). We also need to communicate better what we need. Put specific recruitment calls on our frontpage, on the forums. More actively engage contributing users (on bugzilla, sunrise, etc.) to set the next step. > Setting up yet another project isn't going to help much. Not by itself. But in my opinion this is a structural problem that needs a structural solution. If you have other ideas of how to do this, let's hear them and discuss them, and find out which we think are likely to give us the best results. My concern is that we tackle the problem. The how is just a tool. > Just looking > at open bugs (bugzilla can help you figure out which bugs might need > someone's particular attention). What might help right now is look at > the herds.xml data and combining that with activity rates of the > developers in all herds. Herds with few developers and lots of open > bugs is something you could calculate and filter down into a monthly or > weekly report you send to a mailing list (probably dev-announce?). Yes, this could be a very valuable tool. >> I believe we need to formulate a vision of what we want Gentoo to be, >> and then develop strategies of how to get there. Having a team that >> systematically looks at the state of herds as well as open bugs is >> --in my opin
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] an official Gentoo wiki
Am Freitag, den 04.06.2010, 00:49 +0200 schrieb Ben de Groot: > From what I understand it is still being worked on, > but it moves forward very slowly. Maybe someone from the wiki project > could add some more up to date info? Initially I was one of those who offered to help with the wiki project and I'm still listed as a member. Accidentally I noticed an initial project meeting which was announced via planet.g.o - but I wasn't able to attend that meeting, as i noticed it just a day or two before. From then on ... I heard just nothing wrt the Wiki project. Sad to say, but that's yet another Gentoo communications fail. - Tobias signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] an official Gentoo wiki
Tobias, On 06/04/10 05:53, Tobias Scherbaum wrote: > I wasn't able to attend that meeting, as i noticed it just a day or > two before. From then on ... I heard just nothing wrt the Wiki > project. Have you contacted people who took part in the meeting asking for details and results? Sebastian
[gentoo-dev] Re: [Gentoo Phoenix] an official Gentoo wiki
* Tobias Scherbaum : > Accidentally I noticed an initial project meeting which was announced > via planet.g.o - but I wasn't able to attend that meeting, as i > noticed it just a day or two before. The meeting was also announced on the wiki alias. Five days before the meeting you should have got a mail. I think this is sufficient. -- Regards Torsten
