Re: [gentoo-dev] About testing applications
On Monday 19 March 2007, Seemant Kulleen wrote: > On Mon, 2007-03-19 at 03:38 -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote: > > what is the problem as you see it ? the nice thing about having a > > ~/.config/ is that it's a directory that can obviously be added to > > backups or sync programs for keeping $HOME the same across multiple > > machines ... you dont have to worry about having to filter large crap > > like cache files, temporary files, etc... > > Strictly speaking, it should probably be ~/.etc/ in keeping with the > rest of the filesystem naming scheme. yeah, a mini mirror of / would be neat ... that way you could cleanly differentiate between etc/ and var/lib/ and var/tmp/ and tmp/ and ... but i guess this is something to be discussed to death on freedesktop.org ;) -mike pgpBMfKR7tfsl.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] About testing applications
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jeff Rollin wrote: > On 18/03/07, Jakub Moc <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Jeff Rollin napsal(a): >> > On 18/03/07, Piotr Jaroszyński <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> On Sunday 18 of March 2007 13:37:55 Jeff Rollin wrote: >> >> > Also, if you have a .config directory to put all these files in, ~ >> >> > becomes less cluttered but ~/.config becomes VERY cluttered! >> >> Nothing prevents from making appdirs in .config too. >> >> >> > True, but then .config would just become cluttered with .appdirs >> instead! >> >> It wouldn't become any more or less cluttered than ~/ now... >> >> > Which is why I was saying there was no point in a ~/.config directory... > > Jeff There is no point having directories at all. It just moves the files around and doesn't solve any problems. What could be more convenient than having access to all your files with one simple "ls" without all those annoying and useless "cd ..."'s? Marijn -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF/loIp/VmCx0OL2wRAktgAKC2PByGQagyeyqSgiAAgNj2W93OvgCdHPHH q4LLR/1+8Wv7EFt4I7dKKwA= =Rbk6 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] About testing applications
On 19/03/07, Mike Frysinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Monday 19 March 2007, Seemant Kulleen wrote: > On Mon, 2007-03-19 at 03:38 -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote: > > what is the problem as you see it ? the nice thing about having a > > ~/.config/ is that it's a directory that can obviously be added to > > backups or sync programs for keeping $HOME the same across multiple > > machines ... you dont have to worry about having to filter large crap > > like cache files, temporary files, etc... > > Strictly speaking, it should probably be ~/.etc/ in keeping with the > rest of the filesystem naming scheme. yeah, a mini mirror of / would be neat ... that way you could cleanly differentiate between etc/ and var/lib/ and var/tmp/ and tmp/ and ... but i guess this is something to be discussed to death on freedesktop.org;) -mike Like many things in life, I think the use of ~/.config is ideal but generally unworkable. There is no real reason not to use it. Compartmentalisation and segmentation of file structures is the whole paradigm on which any FS is based. However my reason for hating ~/. configurations is that the GTK file chooser dialog lists these "hidden" directories in its standard usage, which makes scrolling through 30-40 lines of directories an unnecessary PITA for every time I want to Save/Open a file. [Note, Where I have used ~/.config substitute in the relevant XDG standard env.] Just my two Centimes. Cheers Rob -- /** * Gentoo Linux * GPG : 0x2217D168 */
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC Package name additions
On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 10:46:22 +0100 "Marijn Schouten (hkBst)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > One thing we could do would be to separate hierarchy from version > naming. This is where upstream version numbers fail to have a decent order (like your example where later versions have lower version numbers). It could be done for example by extending metadata to include definitions of unnatural ordering, but I don't think it's worth the effort. So far we deal with that on a case-by-case basis, and live with the pain when it occurs. > This would prevent cases like currently with rosegarden (~)1.2.4 > (~)1.4.0 4.1.0-r1 4.1.0-r2, where it really should be 4.1.0-r1 > 4.1.0-r2 (~)1.2.4 (~)1.4.0. For example, a simple solution is to just re-number the (presumably older) 4.* as 0.4.* and be done. That would also solve the potential future problem when the latest release reaches 4.* again. The sequence I would do is: 1) copy 4.1.0* to 0.4.1.0*, commit to the tree (here you could either rig the SRC_URI to keep the old tarball names, or copy the old tarballs again with the new revision number) 2) Alter any packages that depend on the 4.1 versions explicitly, to depend on the 0.4.1 versions (after you're sure the new 0.4.* versions are in the tree). 3) Remove the 4.1* versions - after a delay (a few days, a week, whatever, depending on how often your users are likely to update); in the changelog note that users should expect a downgrade and it is ok to do so. As a minimum, delay until you're sure (1) and (2) have reached the rsync mirrors. 4) Get 1.2*, 1.4* stablilised some time later in the normal way. Actually a quick scan of the tree shows there's nothing affected by (2) so that step can be skipped. I'd recommend still having a delay between the copy (1) and the removals (3) - at least long enough for the copies to propogate to the rsync mirrors before the removals happen (I'd probably do the copy one day, check that got through ok the next day and do the removals then). Noting the expected downgrade in the changelog when the higher-numbers are removed is important (this is what users will see if they do emerge -l). -- Kevin F. Quinn signature.asc Description: PGP signature
[gentoo-dev] Last rites: www-servers/plb
# Raúl Porcel (19 Mar 2007) # Pending removal 18 May 2007, for treecleaners # Bug 150966, doesn't work with gcc4 and no new version for 4+ years www-servers/plb -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: moving USE=server to global
>> if you're going to change the topic mid-thread, then you should update >> the subject >> Ah apologies for that; I just wanted to get the technical objection. >> you already know the state of the server/client debate ... moving it to >> global doesnt fix any of the short comings, so it should stay local (and >> removed where possible) >> Well, I'm aware of the debate; I still haven't heard a convincing *technical* argument against (and i have searched this list.) Your position is fairly clear; can you enlighten usrs as to why you take that stance? I must be missing something.. http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-525893.html if you feel this is cluttering the dev list with a usr prob. > Yeah -- "server" is way too generic. I've forgotten where else I use it, > but when I build "vnc" I use it to get a VNC server. Maybe make a local > "vnc-server" USE flag for that one. > I don't see what is so dangerous about a server flag. After all I don't set doc globally, but it is a useful global flag, with clear intent, as would be server. If usr sets server on a box in make.conf, against advice, they still have to actually emerge the pkgs they want, after all. So it's not like it's going to lead to a mass of bloat (unlike the current setup.) -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: moving USE=server to global
Steve Long wrote: > I don't see what is so dangerous about a server flag. After all I > don't set doc globally, but it is a useful global flag, with clear > intent, as would be server. Does it mean: A) "Compile just the server, as leaving it off compiles both client AND server" B) "Compile the client AND server, as leaving it off compiles ONLY the client" C) All of the above -- Jim Ramsay Gentoo/Linux Developer (rox,gkrellm) signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] My turn to wear the cursed medalion of retirement
/me reads one "Scroll of Blessing" -- Jim Ramsay Gentoo/Linux Developer (rox,gkrellm) signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
On Fri, 2007-03-16 at 21:28 -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote: > On Wednesday 14 March 2007, Caleb Cushing wrote: > > > Perhaps they're more > > > interested in generating ad revenue from whipped-up scandals... > > > > or maybe they have a point. distrowatch hpd ranking show's us down from a > > few years ago we were > > those rankings are less significant/accurate than slashdot polls ;) Seriously. Everybody go to distrowatch and click on the little Gentoo no the right and watch what happens. If we got everybody to do it, then suddenly Gentoo must be the most popular distribution on the planet! -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
[gentoo-dev] Re: My turn to wear the cursed medalion of retirement
Alexandre Buisse wrote: > I think the time has come for me to retire as a gentoo dev. There are > multiple reasons to that, but mainly, it has stopped being fun a good > while ago, and I don't like where I see the project heading. > Man well if it stopped being fun, fair enuff. I hope you'll continue to use gentoo and contribute without the grief. > I'm also worried of how more and more things get done secretly, be it > because "we don't want bad PR" or because "feedback at this stage would > only slow things down". We shouldn't consider users as idiots or people > from whom we need to hide. This is free software, remember? > I didn't realise things were done secretly (of course ;) There's always going to be people discussing stuff in private, but at least the council meetings are in public. ++ to your sentiments about usrs. From what I can see, too many devs look down on them (despite having started off as usrs.) For that reason alone, I am really sad to see you go. Sorry I missed in the other post about that you were leaving. Especially as I use tex for my academic work.. > Another thing that I dislike are the rules that get added everywhere. > There is a growing layer of bureaucracy, and I really don't think we > want to go in this direction. It restricts freedom, it takes time and > energy and it encourages playing "by the rule book" which I thought was > opposed to the very spirit of free software. More rules won't help us > solving whatever problems we may have, but it will certainly make the > project less fun to work on. > TBH I think all that was needed was saying that the pre-existing rules apply to all on the dev m-l, and actually *enforcing* those rules for devs. Devrel is clearly not set up for that, so I support the new dev-mods (sorry proctors is a silly name imnsho as only Americans get it. I understand from a US buddy that a proctor is someone who gives you an aural examination cf viva. I /really/ dislike that connotation.) > I see a general trend, sometimes wished for, of becoming a business-like > environment. Including a proper hierarchy and a "rule enforcement" > department. Well, I'll tell you what: I don't want a boss, especially on > a voluntary project. And, though I perfectly understand that this is not > shared by everyone else, I couldn't care less about being a business or > not. > Amen to that; I don't think working on a Free project precludes standards of behaviour tho. And like it or not, someone has to enforce them. > To end my list of griefs, I really dislike the fact that people with a > gentoo.org address think of themselves as somehow better than users (I > don't throw the stone to anyone, I certainly did indulge in this as > well). I feel that gentoo is not enough about users, and that they don't > get even the respect everyone deserves. Unfortunately, projects like > userrel can only do so much when the real problem is in everyone's > mindset. And I don't really see a solution to this problem being found > anytime soon, since the said problem isn't even acknowledged. > Well at least a *dev* has said it now ;) > I'm aware that in a perfect world, I would stay on board and try to > steer the project in a direction that I would like. I tried that for a > bit and it was quite obvious that I wouldn't be supported by a > significant part of the community. And I don't have the time nor energy > to lobby this properly. I had some ideas for a metastructure proposal > that would perhaps have helped some of the issues I talked about, but I > honestly don't think it would have stood any chance of being accepted, > especially since it would have meant suppressing the council power *and* > would have needed to be voted by the same council. > I think you're underestimating the *current* council. But meh, you've left now. > As a final word (sorry, this got a bit longer than planned), let me say > that if I sounded bitter in the beginning of this email, it's only > because I care a lot about gentoo, and I hope that this email, in its > modest way, will help making it a little bit better. > Thanks for your clear reasoning. I'm really sorry that gentoo has lost yet another dev, and that you've had such a bad experience recently. My apologies to you for any part I have played in that. Good luck, mate! -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: Re: moving USE=server to global
Jim Ramsay wrote: > Steve Long wrote: >> I don't see what is so dangerous about a server flag. After all I >> don't set doc globally, but it is a useful global flag, with clear >> intent, as would be server. > > Does it mean: > > A) "Compile just the server, as leaving it off compiles both client > AND server" > > B) "Compile the client AND server, as leaving it off compiles ONLY the > client" > > C) All of the above > B, as asked for by many usrs. Does that cause other issues I am simply not seeing? -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
Seriously. Everybody go to distrowatch and click on the little Gentoo no the right and watch what happens. If we got everybody to do it, then suddenly Gentoo must be the most popular distribution on the planet! Is that going to prove anything but Gentoo supporters infancy? Love, H -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: My turn to wear the cursed medalion of retirement
Alexandre Buisse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > - tex is basically unmaintained. Perhaps ehmsen can be talked out of > MIA, though I guess he's pretty busy at the moment, and Opfer also > seemed quite interested. I've received a couple offers from users > who would like to get more involved but so far no one really helped > much with bugs. The new tex guy will also have the big task of > preparing the switch from tetex to texlive. Although I am interested I know that I neither have enough skills nor do I have enough time for maintaining that beast. But if anybody wants help and advise I will gladly be there. Thanks for the work and have fun with whatever you do from now on. V-Li signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: My turn to wear the cursed medalion of retirement
On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 17:17:19 +, Steve Long wrote: > TBH I think all that was needed was saying that the pre-existing rules > apply to all on the dev m-l, and actually *enforcing* those rules for > devs. Devrel is clearly not set up for that, so I support the new > dev-mods (sorry proctors is a silly name imnsho as only Americans get > it. I understand from a US buddy that a proctor is someone who gives > you an aural examination cf viva. I /really/ dislike that connotation.) That's a US-only usage. The British meaning is "an officer... appointed annually and having mainly disciplinary functions"[1], which sums up the post pretty accurately. [1] Oxford English Dictionary -- Neil Bothwick X-Modem- A device on the losing end of an encounter with lightning. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
On Mon, 2007-03-19 at 18:54 +0100, Michael Krelin wrote: > > Seriously. > > > > Everybody go to distrowatch and click on the little Gentoo no the right > > and watch what happens. If we got everybody to do it, then suddenly > > Gentoo must be the most popular distribution on the planet! > > Is that going to prove anything but Gentoo supporters infancy? No. It does prove that Gentoo supporters (at least on this list) have no sense of humor. Look at what I was responding to and read what I said again. In case you're still not noticing, it was a joke. It shows that the distrowatch "ranking" means absolutely nothing but the number of times somebody(s) clicked on a link. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
On 19/03/07, Chris Gianelloni <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Mon, 2007-03-19 at 18:54 +0100, Michael Krelin wrote: > > Seriously. > > > > Everybody go to distrowatch and click on the little Gentoo no the right > > and watch what happens. If we got everybody to do it, then suddenly > > Gentoo must be the most popular distribution on the planet! > > Is that going to prove anything but Gentoo supporters infancy? No. It does prove that Gentoo supporters (at least on this list) have no sense of humor. Look at what I was responding to and read what I said again. In case you're still not noticing, it was a joke. It shows that the distrowatch "ranking" means absolutely nothing but the number of times somebody(s) clicked on a link. -- fwiw I guess most of us got it ;-) -- Q: What will happen in the Aftermath? A: Impossible to tell, since we're still in the Beforemath. http://latedeveloper.org.uk -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
On Mon, 2007-03-19 at 18:54 +0100, Michael Krelin wrote: Seriously. Everybody go to distrowatch and click on the little Gentoo no the right and watch what happens. If we got everybody to do it, then suddenly Gentoo must be the most popular distribution on the planet! Is that going to prove anything but Gentoo supporters infancy? No. It does prove that Gentoo supporters (at least on this list) have no sense of humor. Look at what I was responding to and read what I said again. In case you're still not noticing, it was a joke. It shows that the distrowatch "ranking" means absolutely nothing but the number of times somebody(s) clicked on a link. I am sorry then. I mistook "seriously" as relating to the rest of your letter, not the one you were answering to. The sad part is that it's not improbable that it could be serious. After all, I think you can't help noticing that rankings were brought up somehow. Love, H -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] My turn to wear the cursed medalion of retirement
On 2007.03.19 00:10, Alexandre Buisse wrote: Hi, [snip resignation] Alexandre, We have not worked together and have only spoken briefly on IRC. OSS is a kind of anarchy, you only get what you fight for. Your post contains a lot of good ideas, even though it comes over as as words from a weary solider. Have a rest from Gentoo but please come back and fight for your corner. By leaving, you reduce the numbers that share your ideals. Whatever you decide, I wish your well for the future, Regards, Roy Bamford (NeddySeagoon) -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] My turn to wear the cursed medalion of retirement
On Mon, Mar 19, 2007 at 21:34:09 +0100, Roy Bamford wrote: > On 2007.03.19 00:10, Alexandre Buisse wrote: > >Hi, > [snip resignation] > > > > Alexandre, > > We have not worked together and have only spoken briefly on IRC. OSS is > a kind of anarchy, you only get what you fight for. Yes, and it's probably one of the reasons I like it so much. But your work also depends on other people, and the community is far from being anarchist (so far at least :)). > Your post contains a lot of good ideas, even though it comes over as as > words from a weary solider. > > Have a rest from Gentoo but please come back and fight for your corner. > By leaving, you reduce the numbers that share your ideals. That's true, but I also expect a certain amount of fun for something I do on a voluntary basis. If I spend all my time fighting, even for ideas that I think are good, I expect it to quickly become a pain for me as well as for others who do not share my views. Besides, I also respect that other people can have different opinions on those matters and if I'm more or less alone to think in some way, I shouldn't try to force people to my views. > Whatever you decide, I wish your well for the future, Thanks! /Alexandre -- Hi, I'm a .signature virus! Please copy me in your ~/.signature. pgpaAqXT5adut.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: My turn to wear the cursed medalion of retirement
> TBH I think all that was needed was saying that the pre-existing rules > apply to all on the dev m-l, and actually *enforcing* those rules for devs. > Devrel is clearly not set up for that, so I support the new dev-mods (sorry > proctors is a silly name imnsho as only Americans get it. I understand from > a US buddy that a proctor is someone who gives you an aural examination cf > viva. I /really/ dislike that connotation.) Proctor. ... b. In modern use, as at Oxford and Cambridge, each of two officers appointed annually to discharge various functions in connexion with the meetings of the University and its various Boards, the examinations and conferment of degrees, and the like; they are also charged with the discipline of all persons 'in statu pupillari', and the summary punishment of minor offences. Seems to me that the use of the word 'proctor' is particularly apposite. This absolutely ridiculous outburst of pseudo-legalistic onanism would have been avoided entirely if everybody using the lists had taken the Golden Rule "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" to heart. For e-mail lists the other rule is simply "Don't feed the trolls". Viewing of Google Tech talk "How Open Source Projects Survive Poisonous People" http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645 is recommended. Let's just get over it. -- CS -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: moving USE=server to global
Steve Long wrote: Yeah -- "server" is way too generic. I've forgotten where else I use it, but when I build "vnc" I use it to get a VNC server. Maybe make a local "vnc-server" USE flag for that one. I don't see what is so dangerous about a server flag. After all I don't set doc globally, but it is a useful global flag, with clear intent, as would be server. If usr sets server on a box in make.conf, against advice, they still have to actually emerge the pkgs they want, after all. So it's not like it's going to lead to a mass of bloat (unlike the current setup.) Actually, on my systems, about the only USE flags I *don't* set globally in make.conf are "doc", "examples" and "source". There are very few conflicts from this, and just about everything in my package.use file is either making the documentation and examples or suppressing an option for a package where it doesn't work. It turns out to be easier for me to manage things that way than to have a humongous package.use and a few options in make.conf. -- M. Edward (Ed) Borasky, FBG, AB, PTA, PGS, MS, MNLP, NST, ACMC(P) http://borasky-research.blogspot.com/ If God had meant for carrots to be eaten cooked, He would have given rabbits fire. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
070319 Michael Krelin wrote: > someone wrote : >> Seriously. >> Everybody go to distrowatch and click on the little Gentoo on the right > I mistook "seriously" as relating to the rest of your letter Your name suggests you're not a native speaker. It's a common trick of stand-up comedians to introduce their next joke with "But seriously, folks ... " (smile). -- ,, SUPPORT ___//___, Philip Webb : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Centre for Urban & Community Studies TRANSIT`-O--O---' University of Toronto -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-dev] clanlib-0.6 and friends masked for removal
# Michael Sterrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (19 Mar 2007) # masked for removal in April. # Old and nasty. Not supported by upstream. # use the newer versions of clanlib instead. =dev-games/clanlib-0.6* media-libs/hermes games-sports/trophy games-action/clanbomber games-puzzle/pingus Michael Sterrett -Mr. Bones.- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] My turn to wear the cursed medalion of retirement
On 2007.03.19 20:57, Alexandre Buisse wrote: On Mon, Mar 19, 2007 at 21:34:09 +0100, Roy Bamford wrote: > On 2007.03.19 00:10, Alexandre Buisse wrote: > >Hi, > [snip resignation] > > > > Alexandre, > > We have not worked together and have only spoken briefly on IRC. >OSS is a kind of anarchy, you only get what you fight for. Yes, and it's probably one of the reasons I like it so much. But your work also depends on other people, and the community is far from being anarchist (so far at least :)). That depends on the scale you examine 'the community' at. When you work on a project with a small number of other developers, the work share and bureaucracy may well happen without any thought, as 'the community' gets bigger, the need for formal structure, rules and all that goes with it arises. There have been several excellent posts on that aspect of communities, so I won't repeat them. > Your post contains a lot of good ideas, even though it comes over as as > words from a weary solider. > > Have a rest from Gentoo but please come back and fight for your corner. > By leaving, you reduce the numbers that share your ideals. That's true, but I also expect a certain amount of fun for something I do on a voluntary basis. If I spend all my time fighting, even for ideas that I think are good, I expect it to quickly become a pain for me as well as for others who do not share my views. Yes! the fun element is essential. Besides, I also respect that other people can have different opinions on those matters and if I'm more or less alone to think in some way, I shouldn't try to force people to my views. Not force, that wasn't what I intended to express. More persuade. By sharing your ideas with 'the community' at some scale, and opening them to constructive criticism so that they can be used as a stepping stones to something better than the original idea. Newton summed it up well with his "If I see further than other men, it it because I stand on the shoulders of giants" [snip] I think that part of the problem is the form that criticism can take. Giving criticism without giving offense is very difficult, even within a single culture and Gentoo has the difficulty of being multi-cultural too. Anyway, Good luck for the future, regardless of yor eventual decision. Regards, Roy Bamford, (NeddySeagoon) -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
