Re: [gentoo-dev] Democracy: No silver bullet
On Fri, Aug 25, 2006 at 02:35:53PM -0400, Chris Gianelloni wrote: > > Btw, the new policy also includes the possibility of refering a > > decision to the council in certain cases, see "Resolution and Appeal". > > I've read the policy. Did i say you didn't? > > > I'm sure nearly every member > > > of devrel would agree that they would love to see a Gentoo where devrel > > > simply wasn't needed. > > > > I assume you're only refering to conflict resolution again, and i > > agree it would be great. I just don't think this is ever going to > > happen as long there are more than 50 developers. > > Quit assuming I mean anything, you're batting zero for two right now. What's the problem? I wasn't sure how you meant it, so i assumed you meant it that way. As for batting zero for two, i never heard that phrase before and have nfc what it means, but somehow that whole statement doesn't seem very friendly to me. > Luckily, I wasn't asking if you thought it was possible. I've merely > been stating that it should be possible. Perhaps i'm misreading this comment too, but i'm taking that one personal. Screw you guys i'm going home. Let's not waste any more bandwidth and time on it. cheers, Wernfried -- Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne at gentoo dot org Gentoo Forums: http://forums.gentoo.org IRC: #gentoo-forums on freenode - email: forum-mods at gentoo dot org pgpyjT0rXzCYJ.pgp Description: PGP signature
[gentoo-dev] Re: Democracy: No silver bullet
Wernfried Haas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> posted [EMAIL PROTECTED], excerpted below, on Sat, 26 Aug 2006 12:17:03 +0200: >> Quit assuming I mean anything, you're batting zero for two right now. > > What's the problem? I wasn't sure how you meant it, so i assumed you > meant it that way. As for batting zero for two, i never heard that > phrase before and have nfc what it means, but somehow that whole > statement doesn't seem very friendly to me. It's an allusion to baseball. I'm /not/ a sports fan, but I do live in the US, where baseball among others is popular sport and this phrase has entered the popular culture from there. The term "batting average" refers to a statistic in baseball, commonly given as a three or four digit decimal fraction of one (Ty Cobb hit .3664 lifetime average, the record according to Wikipedia, with no pro player hitting a seasonal .400 since 1941, see the reference below), that is the ratio of actual hits to "at bats". "Batting zero" refers to the zero (.000) baseline one gets if they have no hits. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batting_(baseball)#Success_in_batting "Batting X for Y" then refers to the number of hits (X) for a given number of at-bats (Y) in a specific game or season. Within the US culture, then, "batting zero for X", where X is an increasingly large number, is a reference to a poor record of successes against tries. Google says there's 11,000 indexed English pages referencing "batting zero": http://www.google.com/search?lr=lang_en&q=%22batting+zero%22 ... altho only 141 referencing "batting zero for": http://www.google.com/search?lr=lang_en&q=%22batting+zero+for%22 Taking a look at those will give you an idea of the usage, but here are a three samples from the first page of returns on that 141: * By my count, the Bush administration is batting zero-for-twenty. * There was one stretch where I was batting zero for five on investment banking jobs, * Prior to this trip, United through Chicago was batting zero-for-ten (.000 for baseball fans) with regard to connecting me through O'Hare [airport] That's the cultural context, then. It's simply saying you've tried twice and failed twice. Yes, it's negative, unfortunately so given spyderous' musings in the OP about useless flaming, but not unacceptably so in the generic, particularly as zero for two isn't /so/ bad, compared to the references above (0:3, 0:5, 0:20), or even compared to the original baseball allusion, where 1/3 or .333 isn't all that shabby and you've yet to take your third try. You may however also wish to reference "strike out". A batter gets three tries. The third strike without a hit and he's "out". (The following reference redirects to "strike zone", but that covers it.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_(baseball) Again, I'm not a sports fan, but sports are part of the "cultural literacy" in much of the world, and baseball is one such sport here in the US, so it's something we know even if we /aren't/ particularly interested in it. -- Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Democracy: No silver bullet
On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 05:53:02 +0200 Wernfried Haas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: | Ok, so i guess it boils down to: | You and Chris believe devrel won't do anything based on your personal | judgement. | I believe devrel will do something based on my personal judgement. Not so much personal judgement as past experience... -- Ciaran McCreesh Mail: ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Democracy: No silver bullet
Duncan wrote: Wernfried Haas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> posted [EMAIL PROTECTED], excerpted below, on Sat, 26 Aug 2006 12:17:03 +0200: Quit assuming I mean anything, you're batting zero for two right now. What's the problem? I wasn't sure how you meant it, so i assumed you meant it that way. As for batting zero for two, i never heard that phrase before and have nfc what it means, but somehow that whole statement doesn't seem very friendly to me. It's an allusion to baseball. I'm /not/ a sports fan, but I do live in the US, where baseball among others is popular sport and this phrase has entered the popular culture from there. Duncan, these are the kinds of emails that *really* piss everyone off. A simple "it's a baseball thing, google it" would have sufficed. I know you must be really bored while locked up in your parent's basement with nothing to do but write dissertations on every possible random topic, but please, spare us. -Steve -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Xmms needs to die.
On Thursday 24 August 2006 20:46, Alec Warner wrote: > Robert Cernansky wrote: > > What bothers me also, is that it has not plugin design like > > xmms. Support for plugins is very good because lot of people can write > > plugins for lot of things. This is why people do not want to switch > > from xmms because thanks to plugins it have so many features that > > currently no player is able to overcome it. > > So port the plugins from xmms to $NEW_CLIENT, since xmms is an old piece > of crap. Who cares. It works (mostly), it is lightweight, and there are enough people using it to keep it in the tree. As long as things don't break beyond repair I see no reason whatsoever to remove xmms (or any other largely unmaintained package in the tree). Paul -- Paul de Vrieze Gentoo Developer Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net pgpBsdir4vVPi.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Democracy: No silver bullet
On Thursday 24 August 2006 02:17, Donnie Berkholz wrote: > > If I could go back in time a couple of years and prevent this democracy > from ever happening, I would. If I could fix these problems myself, I > would. But it requires buy-in from the entire Gentoo community if we're > to do anything about it. > I think you're right. I liked the way that gentoo was not a democracy. As it is now I think an indirect democracy is the way to go, where the council sets out the lines, makes decisions fast and before everything has been repeated over and over in the next huge flamefest. If one does not agree with the council, vote someone else the next year. Paul -- Paul de Vrieze Gentoo Developer Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net pgpmG5syi0nDV.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Xmms needs to die.
Paul de Vrieze wrote: > On Thursday 24 August 2006 20:46, Alec Warner wrote: >> Robert Cernansky wrote: >>> What bothers me also, is that it has not plugin design like >>> xmms. Support for plugins is very good because lot of people can write >>> plugins for lot of things. This is why people do not want to switch >>> from xmms because thanks to plugins it have so many features that >>> currently no player is able to overcome it. >> So port the plugins from xmms to $NEW_CLIENT, since xmms is an old piece >> of crap. > > Who cares. It works (mostly), it is lightweight, and there are enough people > using it to keep it in the tree. As long as things don't break beyond repair > I see no reason whatsoever to remove xmms (or any other largely unmaintained > package in the tree). > > Paul > This is one of those things (along with qa and security) that the community needs to decide. Does stuff that works but has terrible qa stay in the tree? Does security stuff stay in the tree, but masked? Should xmms be masked? We have no real way of "deprecating" a package, aside from leaving it in the tree with a masking reason saying "deprecated and unsupported." at which point not everything in the tree becomes supported. The Treecleaner project that I run is based on the assumption that broken stuff in the tree is bad, and I try to remove the really old stuf broken stuff first. However I aspire to eventually "catch up" and get to the currently broken packages. So which way will you have it? Or is this more of a pragmatic stance on the tree? -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Xmms needs to die.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Paul de Vrieze wrote: > Who cares. It works (mostly), it is lightweight, and there are enough people > using it to keep it in the tree. As long as things don't break beyond repair > I see no reason whatsoever to remove xmms (or any other largely unmaintained > package in the tree). > > Paul ++ from me. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFE8Ij6rsJQqN81j74RAh7rAKC6xOf7pohl8vuc4DbfWUn3hb3tQQCcCy2s HLvfarS6oguVTEgBnfZWOZo= =uxdl -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Xmms needs to die.
On Sat, 2006-08-26 at 10:46 -0700, Josh Saddler wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > Paul de Vrieze wrote: > > Who cares. It works (mostly), it is lightweight, and there are enough > > people > > using it to keep it in the tree. As long as things don't break beyond > > repair > > I see no reason whatsoever to remove xmms (or any other largely > > unmaintained > > package in the tree). > > > > Paul > > ++ from me. Sounds like we have volunteers to maintain xmms for a couple of years. I offered a good solution but looks like nobody likes it. I'm still open for sugestions. But keep xmms on the future sound herd overlay it's the best imo. -- Gentoo Linux Developer http://dev.gentoo.org/~metalgod -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-dev] treecleaner maskings
# Alec Warner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (27 Aug 2006) # Masking dev-libs/libhoard for treecleaners and bug(s) # 99473 # Sept 27th for removal dev-libs/libhoard # Alec Warner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (27 Aug 2006) # Masking app-misc/emelfm2 for treecleaners and bug(s) # 90476 # Sept 27th for removal app-misc/emelfm2 # Alec Warner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (27 Aug 2006) # Masking media-radio/xlog for treecleaners and bug(s) # 88580 # Sept 27th for removal media-radio/xlog # Alec Warner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (27 Aug 2006) # Masking dev-lang/io-vm for treecleaners and bug(s) # 87785 # Sept 27th for removal dev-lang/io-vm -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Xmms needs to die.
Alec Warner wrote: Paul de Vrieze wrote: On Thursday 24 August 2006 20:46, Alec Warner wrote: Robert Cernansky wrote: What bothers me also, is that it has not plugin design like xmms. Support for plugins is very good because lot of people can write plugins for lot of things. This is why people do not want to switch from xmms because thanks to plugins it have so many features that currently no player is able to overcome it. So port the plugins from xmms to $NEW_CLIENT, since xmms is an old piece of crap. Who cares. It works (mostly), it is lightweight, and there are enough people using it to keep it in the tree. As long as things don't break beyond repair I see no reason whatsoever to remove xmms (or any other largely unmaintained package in the tree). Paul This is one of those things (along with qa and security) that the community needs to decide. Does stuff that works but has terrible qa stay in the tree? Does security stuff stay in the tree, but masked? Should xmms be masked? We have no real way of "deprecating" a package, aside from leaving it in the tree with a masking reason saying "deprecated and unsupported." at which point not everything in the tree becomes supported. The Treecleaner project that I run is based on the assumption that broken stuff in the tree is bad, and I try to remove the really old stuf broken stuff first. However I aspire to eventually "catch up" and get to the currently broken packages. So which way will you have it? Or is this more of a pragmatic stance on the tree? Broken stuff but still maintained upstream, mask it. Broken stuff and unmaintained upstream , send it to the overlay (probably with a note warning about it on the ebuild?). I would opt for that. So, about the xmms ebuild, i agree with sending it to the overlay. -- Luis F. Araujo "araujo at gentoo.org" Gentoo Linux -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Democracy: No silver bullet
On Thursday 24 August 2006 10:26, Wernfried Haas wrote: > On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 12:54:23AM -0700, Donnie Berkholz wrote: > > The council doesn't actually do anything AFAICT, it just "approves" GLEP > > decisions that have already been made. So in effect we have no > > leadership. > > Suspending sunrise was a decision, as was unsuspending it. However i > agree that currently their main role is approving GLEPs and other > decisions which makes them official Gentoo decisions. > If that's a good or bad thing (tm) depends on the POV, i mainly think > it's good to have it like that and no leader whatsoever. A big issue, that I hope to correct is exactly this indeciciveness in the council. It is my position that the council needs to be proactive in decisions and in setting a goal for the distribution. Paul -- Paul de Vrieze Gentoo Developer Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net pgpXMmxIZe3Dq.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Democracy: No silver bullet
On Friday 25 August 2006 21:41, Stuart Herbert wrote: > Personally, I'm opposed to a return that that hierarchy. The idea > that somehow desktop, server, and other such projects should sit at an > exclusive top-table doesn't work for me. While I am partly responsible for setting it up I have to admit that not only did it not work then, it has never really worked. Worst of all was that most of the work being done was not part of any project at all. Attempts like desktop-research to develop some extra strengths for gentoo failed utterly. It opened my eyes that indeed an open source community distribution is not an organisation in the traditional sense. Paul -- Paul de Vrieze Gentoo Developer Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net pgpc3EzIIn3kS.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Democracy: No silver bullet
On Thursday 24 August 2006 16:58, Lance Albertson wrote: > True, that might work, but then you run the risk of losing cohesion of > what everyone knows. To me, the same person(s) should be at all those > meetings if possible. Its better to have one or two people who know > whats going on with all council-related stuff than one here, one there. > It can become disjointed rather easily. This actually comes down to a very real problem. It is almost impossible. Leading gentoo would be more than a full time job. As gentoo can not pay that (and it also burned Daniel down, as it is very lonely) this is not easy to achieve. Paul -- Paul de Vrieze Gentoo Developer Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net pgplWnkKfBDKa.pgp Description: PGP signature
[gentoo-dev] treecleaner maskings (more)
# Alec Warner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (27 Aug 2006) +# Masking net-misc/dhcpv6 for treecleaners and bug(s) # 143189 +# Sept 27th for removal +net-misc/dhcpv6 + +# Alec Warner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (27 Aug 2006) +# Masking app-mobilephone/gtkesms for treecleaners and bug(s) # 142991 +# Sept 27th for removal +app-mobilephone/gtkesms + +# Alec Warner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (27 Aug 2006) +# Masking net-ftp/jftpgw for treecleaners and bug(s) # 142753 +# Sept 27th for removal +net-ftp/jftpgw + +# Alec Warner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (27 Aug 2006) +# Masking dev-util/rhide for treecleaners and bug(s) # 120774 +# Sept 27th for removal +dev-util/rhide -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
