Re: [gentoo-dev] New category: net-voip

[Kevin F. Quinn]

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 21:40:07 +0100
Ciaran McCreesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 21:18:22 +0200 "Kevin F. Quinn"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> | > Uh, as far as I recall, you've yet to come up with any technical
> | > explanation other than "it breaks one of my pet projects"... The
> | > gains of consistency and manageability far outweigh the minor
> | > inconvenience.
> | 
> | Scan back through the -dev archives.  We've been over this many
> times, | in excruciating detail, not that it ever makes any
> difference.
> 
> Well that's kinda the point. You haven't. Every time it's just the
> same vague "stuff breaks", without anything genuine value of stuff
> that isn't someone's pet poorly written toy to back it up.

Did you bother to search back through the archives?  I know I've posted
about this ad nauseum before.

Things that package moves cause:
1) Dependencies throughout the tree have to be updated
2) Current installations become inconsistent with respect to the tree
3) Binary packages go out-of-date
4) Increased sync load
5) Loss of history, unless the move is performed server-side (i.e.
extra work for infra)

fixpackages makes some effort to fix 3, but it's a band-aid solution.
For a start, it assumes the binary packages are all present however
binary packages may be archived off-line. fixpackages also takes a fair
amount of resource to run, resource that end-users don't need to commit
if we avoid unnecessary package moves.

4 & 5 would be mitigated when/if we move to SVN.

In my opinion moving packages from one category to another just causes
unnecessary disruption to the tree - all relevant dependencies
throughout the tree have to be altered, putting current installations
out-of-date with respect to it.

The key issue is that categories are semantically inadequate.  Deciding
which category a package fits into is subjective, frequently a package
fits into many categories yet the category system insists that a
package belong to one and only one category.

Usually these big package moves occur when people want to align herds
with categories, which is a waste of time - also it's daft as packages
can sensibly belong to more than one herd.  Unfortunately we see a lot
of it in the tree.

This week it's packages that have voip functionality that are being
moved to net-voip.  In six months time it'll be someone else wanting to
move all packages with IM functionality into net-im.  In herd-speak,
these packages could easily belong to both the voip and im herds,
should such exist; those providing c++ libraries could also belong to
the cpp herd.  This is useful, as the maintainers of those herds can
each deal with issues in their field.  It doesn't matter which category
it's in.

The only concrete thing categories give us is the ability to have two
packages with the same upstream name without having to mangle the
upstream name.

Unfortunately the category system is deeply embedded in portage and the
tree, so changing that system is simply not going to happen, which is
why I've stopped whinging about the semantic inadequacy of the system.

-- 
Kevin F. Quinn


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Re: [gentoo-dev] making the firefox USE flag a global one

[Simon Stelling]

Hanno Böck wrote:
> Am Dienstag, 18. Juli 2006 14:06 schrieb Simon Stelling:
>> If nobody objects, I'd like to push that change through in two weeks.
> 
> As most of then are "use ff instead of mozilla" and that'll be deprecated in 
> favour of using ff by default and seamonkey by seamonkey useflag, I don't 
> think this makes sense.

I can't follow, sorry. Sure, the new flag will be 'build against ff instead of
seamonkey', but then it's still valid use, no?

-- 
Kind Regards,

Simon Stelling
Gentoo/AMD64 Developer
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Hiatus

[Roy Marples]

On Saturday 15 July 2006 19:25, Henrik Brix Andersen wrote:
> As some of you already know, I will be taking a hiatus from Gentoo
> starting this weekend. While I am gone, the mobile herd is pretty much
> left without active developers. Uberlord and phreak have already
> adopted some of the more critical ebuilds, but quite a few are still
> "orphaned" as seen in this report from 'herdstat -dp brix':

>  app-laptop/laptop-mode-tools
>  app-laptop/radeontool
>  app-laptop/tp_smapi
>  net-misc/radvd

I'll take these too

>  net-wireless/madwifi-ng
>  net-wireless/madwifi-ng-tools

I'm very reluctant to take these - I do have the hardware, but it's on my home 
amd64 hardened server whose main connection is wireless and getting wired to 
is a PITA.

Any other madwifi users want to step up and take these? I know there are a few 
of you ;)

-- 
Roy Marples <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Gentoo/Linux Developer (baselayout, networking)
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Yet Another Victim

[Nick Devito]

Haha, *prints that out and puts it on his monitor* :D
On Sun, 2006-07-16 at 22:05 +0200, Jakub Moc wrote:
> Michael Cummings wrote:
> > I'm happy to announce a new addition to the perl team 
> 
> Welcome! Perl, huh? :P
> 
> http://fastar.detonate.net/ftp/images/matrixse/18/6.jpg
> 
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[gentoo-dev] Re: making the firefox USE flag a global one

[Duncan]

Simon Stelling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> posted [EMAIL PROTECTED],
excerpted below, on  Wed, 19 Jul 2006 09:41:49 +0200:

> Hanno Böck wrote:
>> Am Dienstag, 18. Juli 2006 14:06 schrieb Simon Stelling:
>>> If nobody objects, I'd like to push that change through in two weeks.
>> 
>> As most of then are "use ff instead of mozilla" and that'll be deprecated in 
>> favour of using ff by default and seamonkey by seamonkey useflag, I don't 
>> think this makes sense.
> 
> I can't follow, sorry. Sure, the new flag will be 'build against ff instead of
> seamonkey', but then it's still valid use, no?

I believe he meant that build against ff should be the default (where one
or the other is required), thus need no USE flag.  USE=seamonkey would be
the alternative, where the alternative was formerly ff and the default
mozilla (which then needed no USE flag).

This however breaks down where neither one is required, in which case
they'd both be optional and USE=firefox would remain a valid flag.  He was
making the case, tho (whether valid or not I don't know), that most of the
current USE=firefox flags are where it was an alternate to a default
mozilla as a required dep, and that if ff is to now be the default, the
flag would no longer be needed in those cases, with the implication that a
USE=seamonkey flag would be needed instead.

That's how I read the message, anyway...  of course assuming mine is any
easier to parse. =8^)

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

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[gentoo-dev] sys-libs/slang - call for maintainer

[Jakub Moc]

Hello everyone,

I've filed a bug about slang-2 version bump [1] more than one year ago.
As it hasn't moved anywhere, I'm sending a call for maintainer here.
It's a pretty important bump for UTF-8 compatibility and is really
needed to get rid of those hackish slang UTF-8 patches in stuff like
app-misc/mc that just tend to break stuff.

Any volunteers? Thanks!

[1] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=95247

-- 
Best regards,

 Jakub Moc
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Re: [gentoo-dev] sys-libs/slang - call for maintainer

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

On Wednesday 19 July 2006 15:52, Jakub Moc wrote:
> Any volunteers? Thanks!
If nobody else steps in, I'll take a look to this as soon as I'm sure 
pulseaudio is good enough in Portage.

-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò - http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/
Gentoo/Alt lead, Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, AMD64, Sound, PAM, KDE


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Hiatus

[Steev Klimaszewski]

Roy Marples wrote:

On Saturday 15 July 2006 19:25, Henrik Brix Andersen wrote:

As some of you already know, I will be taking a hiatus from Gentoo
starting this weekend. While I am gone, the mobile herd is pretty much
left without active developers. Uberlord and phreak have already
adopted some of the more critical ebuilds, but quite a few are still
"orphaned" as seen in this report from 'herdstat -dp brix':



 app-laptop/laptop-mode-tools
 app-laptop/radeontool
 app-laptop/tp_smapi
 net-misc/radvd


I'll take these too


 net-wireless/madwifi-ng
 net-wireless/madwifi-ng-tools


I'm very reluctant to take these - I do have the hardware, but it's on my home 
amd64 hardened server whose main connection is wireless and getting wired to 
is a PITA.


Any other madwifi users want to step up and take these? I know there are a few 
of you ;)




I could probably do madwifi-ng - I don't own the hardware personally, 
but my best friend, and co-worker has a card that I can use at any time, 
so I have it available to me.  Only have x86 systems however.


Steev
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Re: [gentoo-dev] New category: net-voip

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 08:57:32 +0200 "Kevin F. Quinn"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| Things that package moves cause:
| 1) Dependencies throughout the tree have to be updated

And? This isn't a breakage.

| 2) Current installations become inconsistent with respect to the tree

Uh, current installations become 'inconsistent' whenever anyone changes
*anything* in the tree.

| 3) Binary packages go out-of-date

So rebuild them. Binary packages go out of date whenever someone does a
version bump too.

| 4) Increased sync load

Not really significant in comparison to, say, an arch team keywording a
new KDE or Gnome stable.

| 5) Loss of history, unless the move is performed server-side (i.e.
| extra work for infra)

History's in the ChangeLog.

| The key issue is that categories are semantically inadequate.

That's no reason to use them improperly.

So again, you've *not* given any reasons to avoid sensible package
moves. This happens every time the topic comes up, and then when taken
up on it, certain people quickly resort to accusations of trolling
rather than providing any genuine evidence that the drawbacks outweigh
the benefits...

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh
Mail: ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk


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Re: [gentoo-dev] making the firefox USE flag a global one

[Hanno Böck]

Am Mittwoch, 19. Juli 2006 09:41 schrieb Simon Stelling:
> I can't follow, sorry. Sure, the new flag will be 'build against ff instead
> of seamonkey', but then it's still valid use, no?

No, we have a flag "seamonkey" (that is already global) that means "build 
against seamonkey", so ff is considered default if that flag is not set.

This could be discussed, but imho we definitely need a standard for that, that 
means one of them, firefor or seamonkey, has to die. I don't really care 
which one, but it should be the same for the whole tree.

-- 
Hanno Böck  Blog:   http://www.hboeck.de/
GPG: 3DBD3B20   Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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[gentoo-dev] Einput eclass

[John Jawed]

Below is a link to an "enhanced input" eclass as well as a screenshot.
This eclass was made to simplify interacting with the user at
pkg_config().

http://jawed.name/dev/gentoo/einput.eclass
http://jawed.name/dev/gentoo/einput.png (code used to create this
output is below)

This eclass started off as a small set of scripts used by academia at
my current campus and eventually was built upon. I was the original
author and modified it later to be ebuild friendly. It has support for
serial consoles.

The main purpose of this eclass is to make life simpler for developers
that try to streamline --config interaction. For example, having
--config with net-proxy/squid may ask for where to create the swap
directories, sed the config and then issue a squid -z for the user.
Taking it further, it may ask if the user wants the --config to add
the runlevel init scripts. Upgrades to packages which require
conversion of data catalogs (such as MySQL/PostgreSQL data
directories) could also be streamlined with user interaction.

In general, I think having more post install configurations to
streamline the basics for core
packages will be beneficial to both Gentoo newcomers and gurus. The
einput.eclass should help Gentoo developers lives easier in achieving
in that goal.

I would like to continue to build upon this eclass.

Regards,
John
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[gentoo-dev] Re: New category: net-voip

[Duncan]

Ned Ludd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> posted [EMAIL PROTECTED],
excerpted below, on  Wed, 19 Jul 2006 11:10:51 -0400:

> On Tue, 2006-07-18 at 17:39 -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote:
>> On Tuesday 18 July 2006 14:17, Ned Ludd wrote:
>> > There is no consistency for end users when stuff keeps getting shuffled
>> > around.
>> 
>> i dont see why end users should care ... devs should update the 
>> profile/updates/ files and portage should do the rest
> 
> Every single year quarter after quarter the more updates 
> that happen the slower portage is becoming.
> Care to solve that?

I don't know all of what portage devs did to fixpackages, but with the
2.1.1-pre series now in ~arch anyway (and I /thought/ in 2.1.0, but I may
have been mistaken), it's /so/ much faster, I finally added
FEATURES=fixpackages to make.conf -- along with the FEATURES=buildpkg I've
had there for some time!

Where back with 2.0.5x, it would take forever, starting with moves even
before I had a Gentoo installed (I never did figure out why it couldn't
start from the date of the last one and only do any new fixes, or at
/least/ ignore ones from before my first Gentoo install), now it seems to
skip over them all at once and only slow down when it gets to new
packages.  IOW, it seems like they've implemented the timestamp thing and
only update things since then, like I would have thought reasonable to do
all along.

To put it another way, with new portage, fixpackages doesn't seem to be an
issue at all!  My first emerge --pretend --update --deep --newuse world
(before it's all memory cached) seems to take longer than fixpackages
does, now.  Either they did something very right, or they did something
very wrong and it's skipping everything it should be doing, therefore
explaining the dramatic speed improvements! =8^)

In any case, I used to dread running fixpackages, but it's now simply not
an issue! =8^)



-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

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Re: [gentoo-dev] arch-cruft in use.mask makes me angry

[Mike Frysinger]

On Saturday 15 July 2006 23:37, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> On Tuesday 04 July 2006 21:54, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > can someone remind me why our arch USE flags are in an "opt-out" system
> > rather than "opt-in" ?
>
> patch attached ... no complaints, i'll merge it in a day or two :p

merged
-mike


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[gentoo-dev] viewcvs.gentoo.org

[Curtis Napier]

viewcvs.gentoo.org is no more. It has been migrated to
sources.gentoo.org and the links on the website have been updated.

Thanks neysx and ramereth.


--Curtis
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Re: [gentoo-dev] sys-libs/slang - call for maintainer

[Alastair Tse]

On Wed, 2006-07-19 at 15:52 +0200, Jakub Moc wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> 
> I've filed a bug about slang-2 version bump [1] more than one year ago.
> As it hasn't moved anywhere, I'm sending a call for maintainer here.
> It's a pretty important bump for UTF-8 compatibility and is really
> needed to get rid of those hackish slang UTF-8 patches in stuff like
> app-misc/mc that just tend to break stuff.

Just a bit of background since I'm listed as the maintainer. I took an
interest in this package because it was a direct dependency on a package
I maintained, app-editors/jed. Then CJK came along and applied a bunch
of patches and somewhere along the line, CJK became the primary
maintainer because no one else would.

As for slang-2, there was no immediate package that required version 2,
and I could never get the submitted ebuilds to compile for me, so I left
the bug alone. 

I would be grateful for someone to take over this who might have more of
an interest in this library as CJK isn't exactly the most manned herd
around. 

Just a note for any future maintainers, app-editors/jed-0.99.16 will not
work with slang-2. I believe the newer version that was released in
April will (although I only just found out about this release today.)

Cheers,

Alastair

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Re: [gentoo-dev] viewcvs.gentoo.org

[Lance Albertson]

Curtis Napier wrote:
> viewcvs.gentoo.org is no more. It has been migrated to
> sources.gentoo.org and the links on the website have been updated.
> 
> Thanks neysx and ramereth.

Just to clarify...

viewcvs.g.o will still work, it just points to the new host for viewcvs
(which is really viewcv now) stuff.

Enjoy :)

-- 
Lance Albertson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager

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ramereth/irc.freenode.net



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Re: [gentoo-dev] viewcvs.gentoo.org

[Mike Frysinger]

On Wednesday 19 July 2006 17:26, Lance Albertson wrote:
> Curtis Napier wrote:
> > viewcvs.gentoo.org is no more. It has been migrated to
> > sources.gentoo.org and the links on the website have been updated.
> >
> > Thanks neysx and ramereth.
>
> Just to clarify...
>
> viewcvs.g.o will still work, it just points to the new host for viewcvs
> (which is really viewcv now) stuff.

thanks :)
-mike


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations open for the Gentoo Council 2007

[Mike Frysinger]

thanks to solar and yoswink we have a xml version now:
http://dev.gentoo.org/~vapier/council-2006-nominees.xml

for you peeps who have yet to speak up at all, please do so in the next week, 
or i'll start hunting you down when i get back from China :)
-mike


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations open for the Gentoo Council 2007

[Tuan Van]

Mike Frysinger wrote:
> thanks to solar and yoswink we have a xml version now:
> http://dev.gentoo.org/~vapier/council-2006-nominees.xml
>   
please update above link for rl03 and wolf31o2 ( unless he has changed
his mind). snipped from -core . core isn't archived so I cut&paste the
header here hope it made easier for you to locate those mails
,
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 00:30:35 +
From: Renat Lumpau <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Nominations?
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Oh yes, I accept.
`
,
Subject: Re: [gentoo-nfp] Re: [gentoo-core] Nominations?
From: Chris Gianelloni <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Grant Goodyear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 07:47:21 -0400
Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

I'm not too interested in becoming a Trustee, unless ...
`
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations open for the Gentoo Council 2007

[Roy Marples]

On Thursday 20 July 2006 06:51, Mike Frysinger wrote:
> thanks to solar and yoswink we have a xml version now:
> http://dev.gentoo.org/~vapier/council-2006-nominees.xml

GJ!

> for you peeps who have yet to speak up at all, please do so in the next
> week, or i'll start hunting you down when i get back from China :)

I think I'll accept the nomination.

Have a good time in China.

-- 
Roy Marples <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Gentoo/Linux Developer (baselayout, networking)
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