[gentoo-dev] aging ebuilds with unstable keywords
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This is an automatically created email message.
http://gentoo.tamperd.net/stable has just been updated with 13748 ebuilds.
The page shows results from a number of tests that are run against the ebuilds.
The tests are:
* if a version has been masked for 30 days or more.
* if an arch was in KEYWORDS in an older ebuild, but not in the newer ones.
* if SRC_URI contains hosts specified in thirdpartymirrors.
* if ebuild uses patch instead of epatch.
* if ebuild sets S to ${WORKDIR}/${P}.
* if ebuild redefines P, PV, PN or PF.
* if ebuild doesn't inherit eutils when it uses functions from eutils.
* if ebuild doesn't inherit flag-o-matic when it uses functions from
flag-o-matic.
* if ebuild has $HOMEPAGE in SRC_URI (cosmetic).
* if ebuild has $PN in SRC_URI (cosmetic).
* if ebuild forces -fPIC flag to CFLAGS.
* if ebuild has deprecated WANT_AUTO(CONF|MAKE)_?_?.
* if ebuild uses is-flag -fPIC, should be changed to has_fpic.
* if ebuild appends $RDEPEND or $DEPEND to $RDEPEND or $DEPEND to $DEPEND.
* if ebuild has arch keyword(s) in iuse.
* if ebuild overrides MAKEOPTS.
* if ebuild has automake, autoconf or libtool in RDEPEND.
* if ebuild exists in ChangeLog.
* if ebuild installs COPYING and/or INSTALL into doc.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 42 "Critical News Reporting" Round Two
On Sun, Nov 06, 2005 at 09:56:35PM +, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > | Then what is the point of this GLEP? Instead, just warn people > | through existing intrastructure, which is cheap from an engineering > | perspective because everything is already there in place, and don't > | think of implementing all kinds of extras just to warn a user one > | extra time, since "trying to warn them any further becomes futile" > | anyway. > > The current warning levels we have are insufficient. This GLEP proposes > a new system for warnings which will be far harder to accidentally > ignore. There are, however, limits to how far we can reasonably go > before we make the solution worse than the problem. Remember that there are packages in the tree that satisfy the preemptive requirement, since they simply die when trying to upgrade and a certain amount of prerequisites is not met. This prevents the user from losing data files or making them inaccesible, while at the same pointing out what needs to be done and why, using a short message. -- Fabian Groffen Gentoo for Mac OS X Project -- Interim Lead -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re[2]: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 42 "Critical News Reporting" Round Two
7.11.2005, 9:41:04, Grobian wrote: > On Sun, Nov 06, 2005 at 09:56:35PM +, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: >> | Then what is the point of this GLEP? Instead, just warn people >> | through existing intrastructure, which is cheap from an engineering >> | perspective because everything is already there in place, and don't >> | think of implementing all kinds of extras just to warn a user one >> | extra time, since "trying to warn them any further becomes futile" >> | anyway. >> >> The current warning levels we have are insufficient. This GLEP proposes >> a new system for warnings which will be far harder to accidentally >> ignore. There are, however, limits to how far we can reasonably go >> before we make the solution worse than the problem. > Remember that there are packages in the tree that satisfy the preemptive > requirement, since they simply die when trying to upgrade and a certain > amount of prerequisites is not met. This prevents the user from losing > data files or making them inaccesible, while at the same pointing out > what needs to be done and why, using a short message. Uhm, breaking the emerge chain in *not* an alternative to this GLEP, in no way... Leaving the rest of the upcoming rant/flame for ciaranm's pleasure. :=) -- Best regards, Jakub Moc mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG signature: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xCEBA3D9E Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95 B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E ... still no signature ;) pgpgVqKI75PvO.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: GLEP 42 (Was: Getting Important Updates To Users)
On Saturday 05 November 2005 06:34, Alec Warner wrote: > > emerge --changelog has no 'official' format. I believe echangelog > actually puts the changes in the correct format for emerge -l to read, > however not everyone uses echangelog. Many developers commit in an > incompatable syntax causing the parsing to fail. This I believe, is an > implementation issue. Obviously if someone is trying to get an upgrade > guide to users they aren't going to commit in an incompatable format. I would also like to add that the changelog has too much information to be usefull as a news source. In all honesty, when I'm emerging a new version of a package I'm not interested in keyword bumps, small cosmetic changes, added auxiliary scripts or documentation. These are all documented (and should be) in the changelog. If I update my system however, I'm mainly interested in knowing whether something is going to break. News would be a way to provide this knowledge to a user in an as concise as possible way. Paul -- Paul de Vrieze Gentoo Developer Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net pgpGBOmYWGM95.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] aging ebuilds with unstable keywords
On Monday 07 November 2005 09:08, Daniel Ahlberg wrote: > The database is updated once a day and this email is sent once a week. > Questions and comments may be directed to [EMAIL PROTECTED] As you told ;) I was wondering if you could add a couple of checks for Gentoo/ALT compatibility... not the "big" ones, but at least the enewuser one and the gnuld one (basically just regexp matching for enewuser.*/bin/false and --with-gnu-ld) that makes a bit difficult to continuously control just from this side :) Also, could you add ABOUT-NLS to the list of files to avoid dodoc-ing? It's mainly GNUish things that does not even get updated on others projects and are mostly useless. Thanks, -- Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/ Gentoo/ALT lead, Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, AMD64, Sound, PAM, KDE pgpKaqfDB35Nr.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Friday 04 November 2005 16:55, Nathan L. Adams wrote: > Paul de Vrieze wrote: > > On Friday 04 November 2005 14:38, Nathan L. Adams wrote: > >>Paul de Vrieze wrote: > >>>What is worse is that some > >>>users might not update for a prolongued time (6 months). At that > >>> time they will not find the information in the erata list anymore. > >>> But they will get the RELEVANT news delivered by emerge/enews. > >> > >>Why would a "SomeSQL 1.0 to 1.1" guide ever need to dissappear? > >> Surely errata.g.o would have archiving/searching. But I do see your > >> point about emerge filtering out the unwanted stuff. > > > > It would be hidden in the forrest. Even if I did a search on SomeSQL, > > it might return a number of news items on SomeSQL. That is besides > > the fact that I have 737 packages installed. I'm not going to search > > news on all of them. Archiving would of course be provided, but > > searching is not usefull for updating. > > You update all 737 packages with each emerge? I don't see any validity > in your point; a nice http://errata.g.o/ site with archived guides and > search wouldn't preclude 'emerge --news' in any way. No, not all 737, but when I update one of my machines that I didn't update in those 6 months (perhaps except security updates), I'm going to have to remerge the majority of them. There might be quite some trivial updates in those, but I wouldn't be able to find out before I update. Paul ps. Even if it were 50 updates (which happens often enough for me), it would be too much to search info for all of them. -- Paul de Vrieze Gentoo Developer Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net pgpPvzV85HKuJ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] use.defaults ( auto-use )
On Mon, Nov 07, 2005 at 02:05:37AM -0500, Alec Warner wrote: > Could we by chance, mandate some sort of comment field in that file not > unlike package.mask? Sounds like a really good idea to me. Will this require any modifications to portage, or will it automagically ignore # comments in that file? > I usually like to know the reason why these flags are being switched on. > Certainly there are some flags that I don't mind and there are others > where I just have to wonder why the hell it's in use.defaults in the > first place. I recently added the 'udev' flag which is automatically turned on by sys-fs/udev. This is needed by at least one package (sys-apps/pcmciautils) to determine if the user wishes to install pcmciautils as an udev helper or as a hotplug helper. This was done after discussing the subject in #gentoo-kernel. Regards, Brix -- Henrik Brix Andersen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Gentoo Metadistribution | Mobile computing herd pgpUy5TRbIUDb.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 42 "Critical News Reporting" Round Two
On Saturday 05 November 2005 01:58, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > ``Posted:`` > Date of posting, in ``dd-mmm-`` format (e.g. 14-Aug-2001). UTC > time in ``hh-mm-ss +`` format may also be included. This field is > mandatory. What about also allowing the -mm-dd format (with or without hyphens). Using English month names is not the most convenient for many people. Paul -- Paul de Vrieze Gentoo Developer Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net pgpoeIwupupXT.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 42 "Critical News Reporting" Round Two
On Mon, Nov 07, 2005 at 11:50:22AM +0100, Paul de Vrieze wrote: > What about also allowing the -mm-dd format (with or without hyphens). > Using English month names is not the most convenient for many people. I would go as far as suggesting to make it a requirement to use an ISO-8601 compliant UTC date string with a resolution of minutes. $ date -u --iso-8601=minutes 2005-11-07T10:59+ This is international, standardized and easily parsable for both humans and computers. Regards, Brix -- Henrik Brix Andersen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Gentoo Metadistribution | Mobile computing herd pgpb1W7k9JJMx.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: GLEP 42 (Was: Getting Important Updates To Users)
On Monday 07 November 2005 19:11, Paul de Vrieze wrote: > On Saturday 05 November 2005 06:34, Alec Warner wrote: > > emerge --changelog has no 'official' format. I believe echangelog > > actually puts the changes in the correct format for emerge -l to read, > > however not everyone uses echangelog. Many developers commit in an > > incompatable syntax causing the parsing to fail. This I believe, is an > > implementation issue. Obviously if someone is trying to get an upgrade > > guide to users they aren't going to commit in an incompatable format. > > I would also like to add that the changelog has too much information to be > usefull as a news source. In all honesty, when I'm emerging a new version > of a package I'm not interested in keyword bumps, small cosmetic changes, > added auxiliary scripts or documentation. These are all documented (and > should be) in the changelog. If I update my system however, I'm mainly > interested in knowing whether something is going to break. News would be > a way to provide this knowledge to a user in an as concise as possible > way. So what's the point of the ChangeLog again? Move load from the CVS server and onto the rsync servers? (Don't answer that - just beating a dead horse ;) I'm really just against having it in emerge, especially with the current suggestion of portage just doing a little bit of maintenance work for external tools and nothing else. -- Jason Stubbs -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] use.defaults ( auto-use )
On Monday 07 November 2005 19:25, Henrik Brix Andersen wrote: > On Mon, Nov 07, 2005 at 02:05:37AM -0500, Alec Warner wrote: > > Could we by chance, mandate some sort of comment field in that file not > > unlike package.mask? > > Sounds like a really good idea to me. Will this require any > modifications to portage, or will it automagically ignore # comments > in that file? Lines beginning with # are ignored. -- Jason Stubbs -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Creation and handling of virtual/tar
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Ok before going on with the profile changes for Gentoo/*BSD, I'd like to fix the virtual/tar thing. Just to make the things more clear, of the current and planned Gentoo/ALT ports, the "tar" command is going to be provided by two different packages: app-arch/tar (GNU tar) and app-arch/bsdtar (FreeBSD's tar). Both works on many operating systems (I was able to port bsdtar to Solaris, too :P) and are syntax compatible. The distribution of them is this: app-arch/tar is the default for Gentoo Linux, Gentoo Darwin, Gentoo OSX, Gentoo DragonFlyBSD app-arch/bsdtar is the default for Gentoo FreeBSD It might seem not distributed in the right way, I know, but that's what I have right now :P Right now one can have two different tar commands installed, one as gtar and one as bsdtar, and a symlink for tar command depending on the CHOST/USERLAND variables. It would be great for people to select their own tar command, so that people who wants to use bsdtar instead of gtar on Linux can do that without problems. I already[1] talked about handling compatible alternatives, and I'd like to progress with this. Carsten suggestion on that thread is actually valid, an eclass would probably solve many problems. What I want to hear is if anyone has good reasons to not allowing choosing the tar command between the two compatible alternatives (both works fine with portage). If nobody has reasons, I'll be back in a couple of days with eclass, modified ebuilds, and if I can find time to learn about it an eselect module to select a generic "tool" (tar only in this moment). The problem right now is registering a list of viable alternatives, that would be simple with eselect but the problem might be that virtual/tar would be a system package and right now depending on eselect might not be the case (when new compiler-config is unmasked, the problem probably does not exists anymore). eselect devs are welcome to slap me if I'm being stupid ;) [1] http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/32099 - -- Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/ Gentoo/ALT lead, Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, AMD64, Sound, PAM, KDE -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQFDbslHe2h1+2mHVWMRAo5zAKCrcZaSu/WjM7+VkjNqK6AsBT+tSwCg3gB3 Cdg/gWRjBa0DWYQuaD5KVhs= =nSaP -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] use.defaults ( auto-use )
On Mon, Nov 07, 2005 at 02:05:37AM -0500, Alec Warner wrote: > Could we by chance, mandate some sort of comment field in that file not > unlike package.mask? what really needs explanation ? i mean, why do you need a comment for say: aalib media-libs/aalib canna app-i18n/canna and every package in there is the same way > I'm also a bit worried that things were placed in there a while ago and > are no longer needed, may also be a good idea to date the entries. like what ? dating is pointless imo, use `cvs ann` :P -mike -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] use.defaults ( auto-use )
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Mike Frysinger wrote: > On Mon, Nov 07, 2005 at 02:05:37AM -0500, Alec Warner wrote: > >>Could we by chance, mandate some sort of comment field in that file not >>unlike package.mask? > > > what really needs explanation ? i mean, why do you need a comment for say: > aalib media-libs/aalib > canna app-i18n/canna > and every package in there is the same way > > Because I want to know WHY this flag is required to be in use.defaults vs a normal flag? Because maybe flags were added in the past to cover situation X and now that situation is fixed another way and we can pull the flag out of use.defaults. >>I'm also a bit worried that things were placed in there a while ago and >>are no longer needed, may also be a good idea to date the entries. > > > like what ? dating is pointless imo, use `cvs ann` :P > -mike Right..cvs ann...how do I do that from viewCVS again? :) In the end I just wonder at the use of these things. They are both helpful and bad. Fex, canna is in there, probably to tell the system that I have canna installed. However, I don't think auto-use should be for that purpose. If I want to tell portage that I have canna installed and applications should add canna support, I should set USE=canna. Yeah, I may have to recompile some stuff b/c I forgot to set it prior, but IMHO thats my fault, not the build-systems. Mostly this cropped up from me installing sqlite, for supybot, which needs sqlite for it's karma storage. Fine by me. Then I go to install php and find it wants to pull in some fandangled php->sqlite deal and I go wtf, I don't have that set...ohhh use.defaults... Why the hell is sqlite in use.defaults?!? That kind of deal. There are a lot of odd situations where I think use.defaults is useful ( although there are times where i wish people would just add to make.defaults in profile so I can nuke it there ). I'd just like to know why the flag is being forced on. The same reason why I want to know why a package is p.masked. Alec Warner (Antarus) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iQIVAwUBQ29t/WzglR5RwbyYAQLvAQ/9ElDpxqcY7Di9ixrcsPv9grY3QjPeE4Ms hgJn0eXj62cQ363AyE6WRyv0I9oHI7KnHwMWOg6aV+o1nfdyAJnA6iXiosoroZLr qs2Px2GYR6tKjKghbOJZAbZHe8zNrKIasRnUrbfQW+5tlVnasXUzNkbFYcb95BZ2 YG7DFteGf8kaB909Yfnz2YXAyh2P7kRiOrtwfzeuBC18RZKoCjEnh+n7VA3s+Z15 DVb2V7ZHYsGauryi0cf6RLRaWCNKFQSZEgwTQUSwadMB2DoW+U3uKsrvANsFvSsK e4iv0SX8544y6J/RzBvP6osx8HWcN+1b/VBOoqynPQ+c/8/nHAOaAYAMnqyMvOOh ndu9bpnHd/+I/+ZcZ7DarZ5Syspg4a1wo+E0bcsgMhkEbKxxhWU1sW5SCabMskvY cXc8PTb2iTg9t0f7HN93ekqMBnBtO3pxd+A3rU23AEDWT7vpNFhCY2yDJ/gKJS3X 9NhAbk4lU2Hd8Rjh7h89KUJRluRkn1ly7cPJBd1GnnRDVSMVTZ1oLGjqzke/nmJR UiR5by5fkt8K/KNh62eY6iu972HmBoJweISuHeFMGbWCj4FFLrSZhq1k/vreubCF OgKpM/Iy5zDYwW6EEHY4H+wt/VPZR/Pi/pQsDqaoFkhbCtTpsI5pilxrPSza8+8q Z5hL1qLdFXk= =21QK -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] use.defaults ( auto-use )
On Mon, Nov 07, 2005 at 10:08:45AM -0500, Alec Warner wrote: > Mike Frysinger wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 07, 2005 at 02:05:37AM -0500, Alec Warner wrote: > > > >>Could we by chance, mandate some sort of comment field in that file not > >>unlike package.mask? > > > > > > what really needs explanation ? i mean, why do you need a comment for say: > > aalib media-libs/aalib > > canna app-i18n/canna > > and every package in there is the same way > > Because I want to know WHY this flag is required to be in use.defaults > vs a normal flag? Because maybe flags were added in the past to cover > situation X and now that situation is fixed another way and we can pull > the flag out of use.defaults i think you're confusing use.defaults with the USE in profile make.defaults use.defaults is there to simply automatically enable USE flags if a package is installled, nothing more and nothing less > >>I'm also a bit worried that things were placed in there a while ago and > >>are no longer needed, may also be a good idea to date the entries. > > > > > > like what ? dating is pointless imo, use `cvs ann` :P > > Right..cvs ann...how do I do that from viewCVS again? :) well, if i had to guess, i'd say try clicking the link that says '(annotate)' > In the end I just wonder at the use of these things. They are both > helpful and bad. if you want to start a thread about punting use.defaults, then do it ... trying to slowly bleed the file of entries is dumb -mike -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] use.defaults ( auto-use )
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Mike Frysinger wrote: > On Mon, Nov 07, 2005 at 10:08:45AM -0500, Alec Warner wrote: > >>Mike Frysinger wrote: >> >>>On Mon, Nov 07, 2005 at 02:05:37AM -0500, Alec Warner wrote: >>> >>> Could we by chance, mandate some sort of comment field in that file not unlike package.mask? >>> >>> >>>what really needs explanation ? i mean, why do you need a comment for say: >>>aalib media-libs/aalib >>>canna app-i18n/canna >>>and every package in there is the same way >> >>Because I want to know WHY this flag is required to be in use.defaults >>vs a normal flag? Because maybe flags were added in the past to cover >>situation X and now that situation is fixed another way and we can pull >>the flag out of use.defaults > > > i think you're confusing use.defaults with the USE in profile make.defaults > > use.defaults is there to simply automatically enable USE flags if a package > is > installled, nothing more and nothing less > > I'm also a bit worried that things were placed in there a while ago and are no longer needed, may also be a good idea to date the entries. >>> >>> >>>like what ? dating is pointless imo, use `cvs ann` :P >> >>Right..cvs ann...how do I do that from viewCVS again? :) > > > well, if i had to guess, i'd say try clicking the link that says '(annotate)' > > >>In the end I just wonder at the use of these things. They are both >>helpful and bad. > > > if you want to start a thread about punting use.defaults, then do it ... > trying to slowly bleed the file of entries is dumb > -mike I know what use.defaults does. I'm saying that: A. use.defaults exists for a reason, and developers are using it to enable functionality. B. Turning off a flag in use.defaults may cause undesired behavior. If the developed enabled a flag in there, I generally think that the developer knows they are doing, maybe thats a bad assumption? :) If there are no consequences to removing auto-use from USE_ORDER I'll do it ( I do similar things on my lone server ). If I am going to over-ride a flag in use.defaults, I know what it does, but I don't know what it affects. Obviously the flag was added to use.defaults for a reason, either because it's required for something, or it adds value to the system, or something I can't think of ;) I simply want to know what that reason is. If it doesn't do anything useful, then yeah, I'd like to see the flag punted from use.defaults because then it's just fluff. - -Alec Warner (Antarus) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iQIVAwUBQ293tmzglR5RwbyYAQIP4g/+Jw9dOjK619VOmOPyq5LsSwZW3oYZDuWA 6TKu7JBjofefCchsERhRo75N8SHc1keCdoQ1cxdSgy366Gau6H+6TRKzhlP3ls9D Ax7XHN5A2P7F8xz07vRqMoq/u9qAtunhB9wiQKwnUrjUvz+uaYL9O9m+P7BU3aRd k99ds87794Y2JEhJR2u5xz80Yaqe/4Dq7wktm38immIVmF8njKRfq5T1O8jAamBh qlWv/DXllBKvBnFnJlkXSyXLkPN9fOewvEHm++RB2fNjf2wt2sWWRUiXrK/wPmaT t+B2lN86EljsGXbT1AVUHy/3bgeOMGHPL81zAbMHIiEZPIarwkX6g2khm9xVhrJt 3ig3WZxXahV03Mv3PKgdERSHNxuN2b1CXiK+8bSfYUftmZMIs/ddlUXft9kiDTRU H1tc6FjXoxFCtROsThMI8er6NOP0gB5y+O4F6JWq2I0ScwAcb22K8Jjn4XX4KJDI qZhbXTJCLhEV5TTznClAPCSeWRVqKGX1jRZnOXfq+fZ+W7MsAPzphZFYySHyx9dY A74z0UHQJUeJodrJlCWcyFlkd4hgXyLnLJqcMBNJVpMCYj1uh3pYUN8U5AKKNVeR 3N2oNQusTefTzq/IsU3svwQgDmudKBcU8+DhqkjXf4r+J6zxESXt/s5wms7xfPGU D2HwELW0Ojc= =8L7y -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] use.defaults ( auto-use )
On Mon, Nov 07, 2005 at 10:50:14AM -0500, Alec Warner wrote: > A. use.defaults exists for a reason, and developers are using it to > enable functionality. > B. Turning off a flag in use.defaults may cause undesired behavior. > > that reason is. If it doesn't do anything useful, then yeah, I'd like > to see the flag punted from use.defaults because then it's just fluff. then your comment about people putting packages in there to work around problem X doesnt make any sense entries exist in use.defaults to map a USE flag to the package it represents (when such a package exists, things like nptl obviously dont have a mapping by definition, no entry in there is a 'work around' or 'fluff', but exists *only* because a USE flag <-> package mapping exists ... if anything, our use.defaults file is *missing* a ton of entries (i'll toss in more tonight for fun :P) -mike -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: GLEP 42 (Was: Getting Important Updates To Users)
Jason Stubbs wrote: [Mon Nov 07 2005, 06:37:10AM CST] > So what's the point of the ChangeLog again? Move load from the CVS > server and onto the rsync servers? (Don't answer that - just beating a > dead horse ;) *Grin* I'm going to answer anyway, since the answer isn't necessarily obvious to everybody. Once upon a time, the expectation was that the ChangeLog contained information about package modifications that would be of interest to users, while the CVS log would contain info mainly of interest to devs. Of course, that was when viewcvs accessed the live tree, too. Since then, there seems to have been a consensus that the CVS log should really be autogenerated from the ChangeLog, which itself is created using ``echangelog``. My view is that the ChangeLog should contain user-readable descriptions (although we also encourage some useful jargon such as "version bump") of every change a package has undergone, providing a fairly complete history for that package that is much more readable than iterating through CVS diffs. Consequently, the ChangeLog has far too much information to realistically serve as a low-noise news source. (One could imagine tagging certain ChangeLog entries as being particularly important, but that forces news to be package based, and seems overly complicated, so please forget that I ever brought it up.) > I'm really just against having it in emerge, especially with the current > suggestion of portage just doing a little bit of maintenance work for > external tools and nothing else. I'm not sure exactly what you're arguing here. Is it just that you think that the news stuff should be a post-sync hook instead of being triggered explicitly by "emerge"? -g2boojum- -- Grant Goodyear Gentoo Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gentoo.org/~g2boojum GPG Fingerprint: D706 9802 1663 DEF5 81B0 9573 A6DC 7152 E0F6 5B76 pgpsn76RkqrpW.pgp Description: PGP signature
[gentoo-dev] Welcome Back, Cummings
Hi Everyone, So GWN was a littel early, but I did announce my intentions on -core on Friday, that I would be speeding mcummings back through the recruitment process. As you all know, mcummings has been _the_ perl man for gentoo for years now. He basically started the perl team and developed the g-cpan.pl tool for portage (the inventor of that script was initially J Robert Ray, a former dev, who isn't returning). Also, he's organised perl-core and dev-perl and kept those things up to date. The other member of the perl team has been rac, who's busy in real life doing non-gentoo things for a while. So, basically [EMAIL PROTECTED] was mcummings. After he left, we scrambled and we don't really have a [EMAIL PROTECTED] team. Mike took pity us and decided to return once more. So, since he's been gone about as long as some devs take holidays (and in effect, his departure was a misnomer -- it was more a sabbatical than a departure), we expedited his process. (Meanwhile, join the discussion on gentoo-devrel mailing list for returning dev policies). So, please join me in a hearty Welcome Back for Michael Cummings. Mike, we missed you :) Seemant -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 42 "Critical News Reporting" Round Two
On Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:41:04 +0100 Grobian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: | Remember that there are packages in the tree that satisfy the | preemptive requirement, since they simply die when trying to upgrade | and a certain amount of prerequisites is not met. This prevents the | user from losing data files or making them inaccesible, while at the | same pointing out what needs to be done and why, using a short | message. Yick! We really really really don't want to do that. A die in an ebuild would ideally only be triggered for unexpected build errors caused by things like the user running out of disk space. Getting hit by a die on something you've left to run overnight is a real nuisance. As it stands, we have a few unfortunate situations (built_with_use) where it's currently necessary to do premeditated dies, but the aim is to reduce these (eg by adding foo[bar] deps to portage), not add in even more. -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Anti-XML, anti-newbie conspiracy) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm pgpFL558sTJ7z.pgp Description: PGP signature
[gentoo-dev] Re: Re: GLEP 42 "Critical News Reporting" Round Two
John Myers posted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, excerpted below, on Sun, 06 Nov 2005 23:18:33 -0800: > On Sunday 06 November 2005 13:38, Duncan wrote: >> I don't believe the apache upgrade issues were announced on the announce >> list. > For the record, it was sent to the announce list on 2004-12-24. > Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [gentoo-announce] Apache packages refresh on 8th January 2005 Thanks! Glad it was me that forgot about it, and not an important announcement that didn't happen! =8^) -- Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman in http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2004/12/22/rms_interview.html -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 42 "Critical News Reporting" Round Two
On Mon, 7 Nov 2005 11:50:22 +0100 Paul de Vrieze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: | On Saturday 05 November 2005 01:58, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: | > ``Posted:`` | > Date of posting, in ``dd-mmm-`` format (e.g. 14-Aug-2001). | > UTC time in ``hh-mm-ss +`` format may also be included. This | > field is mandatory. | | What about also allowing the -mm-dd format (with or without | hyphens). Using English month names is not the most convenient for | many people. Runs contrary to GLEP 1... Guess I should back that one up with a reference. -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Anti-XML, anti-newbie conspiracy) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm pgpKYahij735T.pgp Description: PGP signature
[gentoo-dev] Re: Re: GLEP 42 "Critical News Reporting" Round Two
Ciaran McCreesh posted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, excerpted below, on Sun, 06 Nov 2005 21:47:47 +: > On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 14:38:47 -0700 Duncan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > | While I agree with the point you make, I don't believe the apache > | upgrade issues were announced on the announce list. The news in the > | tree thing is a good idea, IMO, but it'll take some time to > | implement. "Earth changing" (for some Gentoo users) announcements > | can and should go to announce -- that's what it's there for. > > Why should every user have to sign up to be spammed with irrelevant > GLSAs and news items for packages which they do not use? They shouldn't /have/ to, but the option is there. Those who care about security and care about getting a heads-up on "major" changes of this nature, will find several opportunities to be notified of them. The announce list is one. Lurking the dev list is another. Reading GWN is a third, and RSSing or regularly visiting the front page is yet another. However, as I said, I agree with the point made, and believe something like this "push" proposal is a /good/ thing. I'm just not sure how much I'd /personally/ prioritize it, given that there are plenty of information sources for those that care, already. That only means I'd find other things of higher priority, but just the same, I'm glad /someone/ finds doing it worthwhile, and I'll be /very/ glad to add it to my list of information sources, when it eventually becomes available (notification in depth, to modify a phrase). Until then, however, I'm just saying lets make the best of what we have, and when there's an announcement of something big happening, let's ensure it gets to the announce list, among other places (as it apparently did in this case, I just forgot, as it was old news already, since I'd seen it on the dev list, one of the reasons I /read/ the dev list!). -- Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman in http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2004/12/22/rms_interview.html -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: GLEP 42 (Was: Getting Important Updates To Users)
On Tuesday 08 November 2005 01:06, Grant Goodyear wrote: > Jason Stubbs wrote: [Mon Nov 07 2005, 06:37:10AM CST] > > I'm really just against having it in emerge, especially with the current > > suggestion of portage just doing a little bit of maintenance work for > > external tools and nothing else. > > I'm not sure exactly what you're arguing here. Is it just that you > think that the news stuff should be a post-sync hook instead of being > triggered explicitly by "emerge"? I just wrote several paragraphs but that got me thinking so I deleted 'em. Ok. There's two levels of APIs here. There's the post-sync stuff which utilizes portage's API. There'll never be any need for portage to utilize the post-sync stuff that I can think of; if there is, that's a reason for putting it into portage. The second layer is between the post-sync stuff and the news readers. Here we have a problem. As Brian mentioned, multiple independent repositories will be supported and each should be allowed to have it's own independent set of news items. Multiple repositories will bring new (or completely replace) portage APIs. Hence, the post-sync stuff will have to accomodate. Yet, that's going to propogate into the post-sync component's API provided for the readers. Multiple independent repositories is just one change that we know is going to throw a spanner in the works. There'll likely be others. Hmm, I think I've just discovered what's unsettling about all this. We're being asked to throw something into portage that'll do XYZ to support external tools, yet we are guaranteed to break the XYZ. I guess I'd be happy with portage doing it and responsibility for compatibility staying with portage as long as we can decide/lead how the external tools gains access to the information. -- Jason Stubbs -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: GLEP 42 (Was: Getting Important Updates To Users)
On Mon, 2005-11-07 at 21:37 +0900, Jason Stubbs wrote: > So what's the point of the ChangeLog again? Isn't it to record specific changes that have happened to a specific package? News items may be about changes that have not yet happened - to allow users to plan ahead and prepare appropriately. News items may also be about (possibly future) changes where there is no one corresponding package; equally a news item may be relevant for a large number of packages. In both of those circumstances, looking for news in a package-specific ChangeLog doesn't seem right to me. Feels to me to be both bad engineering and bad SCM practice. > I'm really just against having it in emerge, especially with the current > suggestion of portage just doing a little bit of maintenance work for > external tools and nothing else. I can't think of any other place where we have every Gentoo user's attention to the same extent that we do when emerge outputs that reminder about any CONFIG_PROTECTed packages that need attention. It's the one and only place where we can reach every user. That is the whole purpose of this idea. We're trying to deliver the news to 100% of the user base, or as near as damn it. Best regards, Stu -- Stuart Herbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Developer http://www.gentoo.org/ http://stu.gnqs.org/diary/ GnuGP key id# F9AFC57C available from http://pgp.mit.edu Key fingerprint = 31FB 50D4 1F88 E227 F319 C549 0C2F 80BA F9AF C57C -- signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: GLEP 42 "Critical News Reporting" Round Two
On Mon, 2005-11-07 at 09:27 -0700, Duncan wrote: > They shouldn't /have/ to, but the option is there. Those who care about > security and care about getting a heads-up on "major" changes of this > nature, will find several opportunities to be notified of them. That's not the point behind the push for this approach. I kicked this off in my blog article because we've used those opportunities to notify users, and it didn't work well enough. We've had users and Gentoo developers alike who didn't know about the changes. Add 'php' to your away logging, and sit in #gentoo-dev and #gentoo-apache for a week or so, and make a count of the number of users and devs who still don't know about the (delayed) PHP5 changes. From my point of view, as a Gentoo developer pushing large service-affecting changes out to users, our existing mechanisms are at least a partial failure when it comes to getting the news out. If you want a timely example, take a look at this week's GWN's description of this debate, and see for yourself how it matches the changes I've blogged about ;-) > The announce list is one. By your own admission, you're on the announce list, and but you didn't know about the Apache changes. Imagine how many other users were in the same situation. Imagine how many other users never signed up to the announce list in the first place. We can sit here all day and blame those users for their actions, or lack thereof. Or, we can do better, and pro-actively put the news right in front of them. Even game systems like Steam already do this :) > I'm just not sure how much > I'd /personally/ prioritize it, given that there are plenty of information > sources for those that care, already. Take a moment to re-examine the argument from the viewpoint that the existing information sources are not getting the news out to the people that matter - our devs and our users. From that point of view, this work is worth making a high priority. Best regards, Stu -- Stuart Herbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Developer http://www.gentoo.org/ http://stu.gnqs.org/diary/ GnuGP key id# F9AFC57C available from http://pgp.mit.edu Key fingerprint = 31FB 50D4 1F88 E227 F319 C549 0C2F 80BA F9AF C57C -- signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Welcome Back, Cummings
On Mon, 2005-11-07 at 11:11 -0500, Seemant Kulleen wrote: > > So, please join me in a hearty Welcome Back for Michael Cummings. Yey! Great news :) //Spider , Who's too fed up with bureaucrazy to willingly submit himself to devrel. :-) -- begin .signature Tortured users / Laughing in pain See Microsoft KB Article Q265230 for more information. end signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Creation and handling of virtual/tar
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò wrote: | What I want to hear is if anyone has good reasons to not allowing | choosing the tar command between the two compatible alternatives (both | works fine with portage). If nobody has reasons, I'll be back in a | couple of days with eclass, modified ebuilds, and if I can find time to | learn about it an eselect module to select a generic "tool" (tar only | in this moment). Sure. What's the point? What benefit does one tar have over the other? How is bsdtar more capable in any situation than gnutar? Thanks, Donnie -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDb5tMXVaO67S1rtsRAj9vAKDA7OQ3FCDDEHSExLuF5zll19EbtACgpSkq KY35vUu27fks6SktZ5gUEnk= =6Mlg -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Welcome Back, Cummings
On Mon, 2005-11-07 at 11:11 -0500, Seemant Kulleen wrote: > So, please join me in a hearty Welcome Back for Michael Cummings. > > Mike, we missed you :) We sure did! Welcome back! Glad to see the beurocracy didn't manage to get in the way of this :) Now, about mod_perl 2 ... ;-) Best regards, Stu -- Stuart Herbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Developer http://www.gentoo.org/ http://stu.gnqs.org/diary/ GnuGP key id# F9AFC57C available from http://pgp.mit.edu Key fingerprint = 31FB 50D4 1F88 E227 F319 C549 0C2F 80BA F9AF C57C -- signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: GLEP 42 "Critical News Reporting" Round Two
Stuart Herbert wrote: By your own admission, you're on the announce list, and but you didn't know about the Apache changes. Imagine how many other users were in the same situation. Imagine how many other users never signed up to the announce list in the first place. On gentoo-dev, gentoo-user, gentoo-devel, gentoo-server and gentoo-web-user on 2005-09-08 01:48 UTC a message titled "Stabilization of new-style Apache" was posted. Quoting John Myers: For the record, it was sent to the announce list on 2004-12-24. Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [gentoo-announce] Apache packages refresh on 8th January 2005 giving me the impression that the new-style apache changes were not announced (though they did cause some trouble), and that this message -- which unfortunately is not on Gmane, so I cannot check -- probably deals *not* with those new-style apache changes. If it does, then it might be 'badly timed'. In the whole of 2005 I can see one message on gentoo-announce which is not a GLSA, which is a release announcement for Gentoo Linux 2005.0. Considering the description of gentoo-announce "General Gentoo announcements list (new releases, security fixes)" perhaps this list might not the the right place for such **important** announcements as the new-style apache message. However, suppose I was a normal user, and I would like to receive these messages, where should I sign up for? gentoo-user? "General Gentoo user support and discussion mailing list" sounds like a lot of spam to me, and if I don't have questions myself, or prefer using the (excellent) forums for that, then why should I sign up for that? gentoo-dev perhaps? "General Gentoo developer discussion mailing list" sounds like a lot of spam too, and certainly not as source for important messages from a user perspective. gentoo-security? "For the discussion of security issues and fixes" Well, as user I might only be interested in the announcement of security fixes, don't need discussions on them, and since I want those important messages about changes in gentoo psckages... nope, this is not it. gentoo-gwn? "Gentoo Weekly Newsletter" well, might come in handy, doesn't say anything about what it does exactly and might contain a lot of noise considering what I'm looking for. doc, doc-cvs, translator, ppc-user, ppc-dev, , kernel, laptop: not applicable gentoo-desktop: might be, though not interested in window managers gentoo-server? "Discussions about Gentoo in production environments" ok, I don't need discussions, I just want messages on **important** changes. After going through the list, I got the impression there is simply no place where such messages clearly would go. gentoo-announce sounds as the best option to go for, but its description somehow suggests not. Though, subscribed to gentoo-announce means you get nothing but GLSA announcements and sometimes a new release announcements. So, what list should the user that wants to receive those **important** messages sign up to? I still think that *this* is the reason why people don't seem to know about the important changes, because there is no obvious place where to get them. It's quite likely that a user that wanted to see the new-style apache message didn't see it because it simply didn't appear on a list the user hoped to see it. It was in the GWN of 2005-09-12, but I can imagine a user didn't expect it to be there, as there is no description at al for GWN list, and the **important** information will always have to be extracted from the GWN, since each GWN covers multiple items in a few categories which not every user might interest. Send **important** messages separate to a non-discussion mailing list, and I'm sure that many people will be happy to read it -- just like gentoo-announce. -- Fabian Groffen Gentoo for Mac OS X Project -- Interim Lead -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: GLEP 42 "Critical News Reporting" Round Two
On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 19:32:38 +0100 Grobian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: | So, what list should the user that wants to receive those | **important** messages sign up to? That's your first misconception right there. Most users don't sign up for things. -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Anti-XML, anti-newbie conspiracy) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm pgpAYpyjB4Bmd.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Creation and handling of virtual/tar
On Monday 07 November 2005 19:22, Donnie Berkholz wrote: > Sure. What's the point? What benefit does one tar have over the other? > How is bsdtar more capable in any situation than gnutar? the first point is not to change the default behavior of an userland, so FreeBSD should have FreeBSD tar. About the difference between the two, I still prefer bsdtar because is a little more cleaner (imho), it does not use gzip/bzip2 in pipe to extract .tar.gz and .tar.bz2 archives, and it extracts zip files and iso files. And it's a choice people can do, default users won't see any difference anyway. -- Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/ Gentoo/ALT lead, Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, AMD64, Sound, PAM, KDE pgpuOChrmLbT6.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: GLEP 42 "Critical News Reporting" Round Two
[snip]
> After going through the list, I got the impression there is simply no
> place where such messages clearly would go. gentoo-announce sounds as
> the best option to go for, but its description somehow suggests not.
> Though, subscribed to gentoo-announce means you get nothing but GLSA
> announcements and sometimes a new release announcements.
>
> So, what list should the user that wants to receive those **important**
> messages sign up to?
> I still think that *this* is the reason why people don't seem to know
> about the important changes, because there is no obvious place where to
> get them. It's quite likely that a user that wanted to see the
> new-style apache message didn't see it because it simply didn't appear
> on a list the user hoped to see it. It was in the GWN of 2005-09-12,
> but I can imagine a user didn't expect it to be there, as there is no
> description at al for GWN list, and the **important** information will
> always have to be extracted from the GWN, since each GWN covers multiple
> items in a few categories which not every user might interest.
>
> Send **important** messages separate to a non-discussion mailing list,
> and I'm sure that many people will be happy to read it -- just like
> gentoo-announce.
[/snip]
Above and beyond Ciaran's point...
You are correct, there is no clear cut place for them to go...that's how
this thing got started in the first place. However why force users to
sign up for something which can't be appropriately filtered (installed
packages, keywords, use flags, profiles, etc.) when all of them are
already "signed up" for something that can track and filter, portage.
I wouldn't necessarily bother signing up for an errata list if said list
was going to provide me with *all* the errata out there. The reason that
a mailing list works for RedHat is because RHN tracks what packages you
have installed on your system on *their* server (again something you
have to sign up for, and worse send them info about your configuration),
so the filtering is done for you. We will *never* do something like
this, we have a client side tool that can identify what is installed
already...why not use it?
--
Daniel Ostrow
Gentoo Foundation Board of Trustees
Gentoo/{PPC,PPC64,DevRel}
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: GLEP 42 "Critical News Reporting" Round Two
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 19:32:38 +0100 Grobian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: | So, what list should the user that wants to receive those | **important** messages sign up to? That's your first misconception right there. Most users don't sign up for things. Doesn't matter. If the important messages aren't posted or you have to extract them yourself the effect is the same. Besides that, I see no arguments why users don't. No proof either. Forcing a push-based method on someone who likes pull-based methods is evil. The least you can do to make everybody happy, is allow pull-based access to the important news items, and devote some more words on how to disable your 'feature'. -- Fabian Groffen Gentoo for Mac OS X Project -- Interim Lead -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: GLEP 42 "Critical News Reporting" Round Two
[snip]
> After going through the list, I got the impression there is simply no
> place where such messages clearly would go. gentoo-announce sounds as
> the best option to go for, but its description somehow suggests not.
> Though, subscribed to gentoo-announce means you get nothing but GLSA
> announcements and sometimes a new release announcements.
>
> So, what list should the user that wants to receive those **important**
> messages sign up to?
> I still think that *this* is the reason why people don't seem to know
> about the important changes, because there is no obvious place where to
> get them. It's quite likely that a user that wanted to see the
> new-style apache message didn't see it because it simply didn't appear
> on a list the user hoped to see it. It was in the GWN of 2005-09-12,
> but I can imagine a user didn't expect it to be there, as there is no
> description at al for GWN list, and the **important** information will
> always have to be extracted from the GWN, since each GWN covers multiple
> items in a few categories which not every user might interest.
>
> Send **important** messages separate to a non-discussion mailing list,
> and I'm sure that many people will be happy to read it -- just like
> gentoo-announce.
[/snip]
Above and beyond Ciaran's point...
You are correct, there is no clear cut place for them to go...that's how
this thing got started in the first place. However why force users to
sign up for something which can't be appropriately filtered (installed
packages, keywords, use flags, profiles, etc.) when all of them are
already "signed up" for something that can track and filter, portage.
I wouldn't necessarily bother signing up for an errata list if said list
was going to provide me with *all* the errata out there. The reason that
a mailing list works for RedHat is because RHN tracks what packages you
have installed on your system on *their* server (again something you
have to sign up for, and worse send them info about your configuration),
so the filtering is done for you. We will *never* do something like
this, we have a client side tool that can identify what is installed
already...why not use it?
--
Daniel Ostrow
Gentoo Foundation Board of Trustees
Gentoo/{PPC,PPC64,DevRel}
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
Daniel Ostrow
Gentoo Foundation Board of Trustees
Gentoo/{PPC,PPC64,DevRel}
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: GLEP 42 "Critical News Reporting" Round Two
On Mon, 2005-11-07 at 14:02 -0500, Daniel Ostrow wrote:
> [snip]
>
> > After going through the list, I got the impression there is simply no
> > place where such messages clearly would go. gentoo-announce sounds as
> > the best option to go for, but its description somehow suggests not.
> > Though, subscribed to gentoo-announce means you get nothing but GLSA
> > announcements and sometimes a new release announcements.
> >
> > So, what list should the user that wants to receive those **important**
> > messages sign up to?
> > I still think that *this* is the reason why people don't seem to know
> > about the important changes, because there is no obvious place where to
> > get them. It's quite likely that a user that wanted to see the
> > new-style apache message didn't see it because it simply didn't appear
> > on a list the user hoped to see it. It was in the GWN of 2005-09-12,
> > but I can imagine a user didn't expect it to be there, as there is no
> > description at al for GWN list, and the **important** information will
> > always have to be extracted from the GWN, since each GWN covers multiple
> > items in a few categories which not every user might interest.
> >
> > Send **important** messages separate to a non-discussion mailing list,
> > and I'm sure that many people will be happy to read it -- just like
> > gentoo-announce.
>
> [/snip]
>
> Above and beyond Ciaran's point...
>
> You are correct, there is no clear cut place for them to go...that's how
> this thing got started in the first place. However why force users to
> sign up for something which can't be appropriately filtered (installed
> packages, keywords, use flags, profiles, etc.) when all of them are
> already "signed up" for something that can track and filter, portage.
>
> I wouldn't necessarily bother signing up for an errata list if said list
> was going to provide me with *all* the errata out there. The reason that
> a mailing list works for RedHat is because RHN tracks what packages you
> have installed on your system on *their* server (again something you
> have to sign up for, and worse send them info about your configuration),
> so the filtering is done for you. We will *never* do something like
> this, we have a client side tool that can identify what is installed
> already...why not use it?
Err...sorry for the double post...mail client error.
Oh...and before anyone goes nuts...note I said "why force users to sign
up" to such a list *not* "we will not provide such a list".
--
Daniel Ostrow
Gentoo Foundation Board of Trustees
Gentoo/{PPC,PPC64,DevRel}
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Creation and handling of virtual/tar
Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò wrote: On Monday 07 November 2005 19:22, Donnie Berkholz wrote: Sure. What's the point? What benefit does one tar have over the other? How is bsdtar more capable in any situation than gnutar? the first point is not to change the default behavior of an userland, so FreeBSD should have FreeBSD tar. About the difference between the two, I still prefer bsdtar because is a little more cleaner (imho), it does not use gzip/bzip2 in pipe to extract .tar.gz and .tar.bz2 archives, and it extracts zip files and iso files. And it's a choice people can do, default users won't see any difference anyway. So why is a virtual needed? Don't the two packages co-exist? -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Creation and handling of virtual/tar
On Monday 07 November 2005 20:38, Alec Joseph Warner wrote: > So why is a virtual needed? Don't the two packages co-exist? They do, but at the moment just one can provide /bin/tar for a specific system. The idea is to be able to select one of the two, like loggers, crons, and similar. And just let virtual/tar be included in the base's packages, defaulting base virtual/tar to app-arch/tar, and overwriting it on freebsd profiles to app-arch/bsdtar. And when I want to remove app-arch/tar from linux... I can just select my own virtual provider on /etc/portage/profile, and let deps be clear by themselves. -- Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/ Gentoo/ALT lead, Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, AMD64, Sound, PAM, KDE pgpr6mXgY6hCT.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: GLEP 42 "Critical News Reporting" Round Two
On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 20:11:23 +0100 Grobian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: | Besides that, I see no arguments why users don't. No proof either. Have a look at how amazingly well certain recent upgrades have gone... | Forcing a push-based method on someone who likes pull-based methods | is evil. The least you can do to make everybody happy, is allow | pull-based access to the important news items, and devote some more | words on how to disable your 'feature'. Why does it need more words? It already has a sentence, and that's all that's needed. -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Anti-XML, anti-newbie conspiracy) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm pgp72SL3NUCsg.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 42 "Critical News Reporting" Round Two
Daniel Ostrow wrote: You are correct, there is no clear cut place for them to go...that's how this thing got started in the first place. However why force users to sign up for something which can't be appropriately filtered (installed packages, keywords, use flags, profiles, etc.) when all of them are already "signed up" for something that can track and filter, portage. I wouldn't necessarily bother signing up for an errata list if said list was going to provide me with *all* the errata out there. The reason that a mailing list works for RedHat is because RHN tracks what packages you have installed on your system on *their* server (again something you have to sign up for, and worse send them info about your configuration), so the filtering is done for you. We will *never* do something like this, we have a client side tool that can identify what is installed already...why not use it? What if an admin just wants to see all errata messages because (s)he doesn't feel like aggregating the unique messages from a whole cluster of machines running Gentoo with all different packages installed? It is a well-known fact that removing seemingly useless background noise can cause relations between problems not to be recognised. Some users know that and hence would like to see all errata. Our GLSAs are sent out exactly in the same way, but there is not a word on them in the GLEP, neither does anyone seem to care about them, while they seem to me at least ***VERY*** important, that is, much more important than a message about breaking my installation. And they aren't even personalised! Users don't care about security[1], adminstrators do. Administrators don't care about breaking installations[2], users do. About the RHN subscription thing, that service is IMHO quite expensive (certainly not free) and not available to Fedora Core users. I don't think you _want_ to compare Gentoo Linux Free support to support provided by commercial entities for an annual membership fee. The issue whether news or GLSAs are important and whether they can be read or not is of relevance with regard to the motivation of the GLEP which assumes it doesn't work for anybody, while I claim it 1) doesn't work because the information is hard to find and 2) it will work for a certain group of people very well if the information would be there. To conclude my far too lengthy replies here: I'd like to see some recognition that the world isn't that flat as the GLEP suggests, thereby including opportunities for everyone to be happy with the GLEP. I already stated this in my first reply in my part on "use-scenarios". Don't worry I'll shut up now as there is clearly no interest for a bit broader thinking. [1] (linux) desktop users are of a much lower target than big companies for security exploits [2] administrators try out package upgrades on a spare box first, users usually don't have such box, or risk the potential impact -- Fabian Groffen Gentoo for Mac OS X Project -- Interim Lead -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 42 "Critical News Reporting" Round Two
051107 Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > 7 Nov 2005 11:50:22 +0100 Paul de Vrieze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> On Saturday 05 November 2005 01:58, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: >>> ``Posted:`` >>> Date of posting, in ``dd-mmm-`` format (e.g. 14-Aug-2001). >>> UTC time in ``hh-mm-ss +`` format may also be included. This >>> field is mandatory. >> What about also allowing the -mm-dd format (with or without hyphens). >> Using English month names is not the most convenient for many people. > Runs contrary to GLEP 1. > Guess I should back that one up with a reference. Maybe it's time for GLEP 43 : " blah blah ... Gentoo date formats shall always correspond to the international standard, ie be in the form '-mm-dd' blah blah ... " I'm serious -- Gentoo should try to follow international standards -- , but have a (smile) to recognise it's a small point. -- ,, SUPPORT ___//___, Philip Webb : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Centre for Urban & Community Studies TRANSIT`-O--O---' University of Toronto -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Welcome Back, Cummings
On Mon, 7 Nov 2005 11:11:02 -0500 Seemant Kulleen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Mike, we missed you :) Except for the Ruby herd, who saw a great chance to convert lots of people... :P Joking aside, welcome back Mike! :) -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://citizen428.net/http://dev.gentoo.org/~citizen428/ GnuPG key: 0x90CA09E3/4D21 916E DBCE 72B8 CDC5 BD87 DE2D 91A2 90CA 09E3 pgpnvvZULDbk0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re[2]: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: GLEP 42 "Critical News Reporting" Round Two
7.11.2005, 20:11:23, Grobian wrote: > Ciaran McCreesh wrote: >> On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 19:32:38 +0100 Grobian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> | So, what list should the user that wants to receive those >> | **important** messages sign up to? >> >> That's your first misconception right there. Most users don't sign up >> for things. > Doesn't matter. If the important messages aren't posted or you have to > extract them yourself the effect is the same. > Besides that, I see no arguments why users don't. No proof either. OK, I'd really suggest you join #gentoo-apache for a week, if you want some proof. Browsing forums.g.o. rants wrt the Apache layout changes is also helpful in this respect. ;p -- Jakub pgpZ3qNIGXwpw.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 42 "Critical News Reporting" Round Two
On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 21:10:35 +0100 Grobian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: | It is a well-known fact that removing seemingly useless background | noise can cause relations between problems not to be recognised. | Some users know that and hence would like to see all errata. And, conveniently enough, the GLEP sticks all the news items (errata is a bad choice of word, since we don't have a single release against which we make corrections) in a single place. | Our GLSAs are sent out exactly in the same way, but there is not a | word on them in the GLEP, neither does anyone seem to care about | them, while they seem to me at least ***VERY*** important, that is, | much more important than a message about breaking my installation. Yes, because it's better to have a system which is immune to denial of service attacks from local users who all have physical access to the system than one which actually works. Right. -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Anti-XML, anti-newbie conspiracy) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm pgpaJj5K8cVDB.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 42 "Critical News Reporting" Round Two
On Monday 07 of November 2005 21:10 Grobian wrote: > Our GLSAs are sent out exactly in the same way, but there is not a word > on them in the GLEP, neither does anyone seem to care about them, while > they seem to me at least ***VERY*** important, that is, much more > important than a message about breaking my installation. And they > aren't even personalised! Are you sure about that? See glsa-integration [1] and `glsa-check` manpage [2]. [1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/portage/glsa-integration.xml [2] `man glsa-check` WKR, -jkt -- cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth pgpFX7p6L7vdu.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 42 "Critical News Reporting" Round Two
On Monday 07 of November 2005 21:12 Philip Webb wrote: > 051107 Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > I'm serious -- Gentoo should try to follow international standards -- , > but have a (smile) to recognise it's a small point. See the first line of the quotation :-P Cheers, -jkt -- cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth pgpHrjWcKd7Qu.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 42 "Critical News Reporting" Round Two
On Mon, 7 Nov 2005 15:12:20 -0500 Philip Webb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: | I'm serious -- Gentoo should try to follow international standards The format specified in GLEP 1 is an international standard. It's just not the same international standard that you're after. -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Anti-XML, anti-newbie conspiracy) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm pgpyIihYA3zMt.pgp Description: PGP signature
[gentoo-dev] GLEP 43: GLEP File Hosting
Ok, this is a change to the GLEP process, so it itself needs to be a GLEP... All it does is propose that GLEPs be allowed to stick example code in a subdirectory rather than having to inline things or shove them off on someone's devspace. Text version attached. An HTML version will be up on the main site whenever the web nodes next sync -- may be wise to read that instead if you aren't familiar with RST :: blocks. -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Anti-XML, anti-newbie conspiracy) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm GLEP: 43 Title: GLEP File Hosting Version: $Revision: 1.1 $ Author: Ciaran McCreesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Last-Modified: $Date: 2005/11/07 21:55:08 $ Status: Draft Type: Informational Content-Type: text/x-rst Created: 7-Nov-2005 Post-History: 7-Nov-2005 Abstract This GLEP proposes the creation of a reliable hosting location for data (e.g. sample code) associated with GLEPs. Motivation == Some GLEPs come with non-trivial example files or code which are part of the specification. There are two methods which have been used to handle this previously: * Include the code inline in the GLEP using a code (``::``) segment. This is less than ideal for larger code samples as it leads to considerable clutter. * Place the files on a developer's webspace on ``dev.gentoo.org``. This is not particularly reliable -- developers may leave or accidentally restructure their webspace, and a GLEP is intended to be a *permanent* specification. This GLEP proposes that GLEP authors be allowed to make use of the main Gentoo webserver for hosting content relevant to their GLEP. .. Important:: The hosting proposed is for files related to the **proposal** (e.g. example code which clarifies part of the specification), not a full implementation of the proposal. Specification = Once a GLEP number has been allocated, developers (or the GLEP editors) may create a directory in CVS named ``glep--extras/`` (where ```` is the GLEP's number) under the main GLEP directory. This directory may be used by files which are part of the proposal. Any hyperlinks to files inside this directory should use relative paths. This prevents breakages in the case of directory structure changes. GLEPs which use this directory may include an 'Example Files' heading with a list of links to the associated files. Example --- Consider the following GLEP segment, which has been taken from a draft of GLEP 42 [#glep-42]_: :: Example News Item ' The following hypothetical news item could be used for an upgrade to the ``YourSQL`` database format which breaks forward compatibility. It should be named ``2005-11/2005-11-01-yoursql-upgrades.en.txt``. :: # Lots and lots of lines of example news item The news item in question is clearly part of the proposal, but including it inline is messy. Under this proposal, the main GLEP segment would read: :: Example News Item ' `This hypothetical news item`__ could be used for an upgrade to the ``YourSQL`` database format which breaks forward compatibility. It would be named ``2005-11/2005-11-01-yoursql-upgrades.en.txt``. .. __: glep-0042-extras/example-news-item.txt The example news item would then be placed in ``glep-0042-extras/example-news-item.txt``\. Similar changes would be made for the longer example code segments. The GLEP could also gain a new section along the lines of: :: Example Files = `example-news-item.txt `_ An example news item. `news-mailer.bash `_ A ``bash`` script which delivers news items via email. Backwards Compatibility === Not an issue. References == .. [#glep-42] GLEP 42: Critical news reporting, Ciaran McCreesh, http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/glep/glep-0042.html Copyright = This document has been placed in the public domain. .. vim: set tw=80 fileencoding=utf-8 spell spelllang=en et : pgpBmwmzd5FgV.pgp Description: PGP signature
[gentoo-dev] New developer: Michael Schön beck (thoand)
Hi list, Michael has just joined us to help with the Video Disc Record ebuilds. He lives in a small town near Bielefeld in Germany, and is twenty-one years old. He has a girlfriend. In his spare time he takes an interest in politics, and has also provided translations for a few Firefox extensions. He's familiar with Bash, Java and Elan, as far as computing goes. Please welcome Michael on board. Regards, Tom -- Tom Martin, http://dev.gentoo.org/~slarti AMD64, net-mail, shell-tools, vim, recruiters Gentoo Linux pgpoL4ene3Y7x.pgp Description: PGP signature
[gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Re: GLEP 42 "Critical News Reporting" Round Two
Stuart Herbert posted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, excerpted below, on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 17:03:14 +: >> The announce list is one. > > By your own admission, you're on the announce list, and but you didn't > know about the Apache changes. Imagine how many other users were in the > same situation. Imagine how many other users never signed up to the > announce list in the first place. I guess I wasn't quite clear, then. Yes, I KNEW about the changes, from several sources. The first source I knew about them from was here, I believe, seeing the earlier discussion. Because of that, it was old news by the time I saw it on announce and I wasn't sure I'd seen it there because I'd lost track of all the locations and threads I'd seen it in by then. I wasn't sure it was on announce, not because I didn't see it there, but because it was old news by then. Actually, from my perspective, that's a /good/ thing, because one of the reasons I'm subscribed here is to get as early a heads-up on things as possible. The news SHOULD go to announce and it did (tho I hadn't been sure of it in that case), but by definition, before it gets announced, it will need discussed, and likely as not, at least mention of that discussion will be seen here, well ahead of it actually happening or appearing on announce or on the news thing. Then seeing it on announce would jog my memory, if necessary, and remind me of the decision made, as sometimes the discussion here remains up in the air and I don't know the decision until later. (That's normal, not a bad thing.) Then seeing it in emerge would be another warning (for me), just in case I'd slept thru things, and to jog my memory once more. For me, and for those that care, that's all it should be, another warning, thus I'd call it fairly low priority. However, it's still good to have, and for those that don't care enough to go looking elsewhere, it might be the first warning they get. I personally wouldn't want to operate that way, nor could I imagine doing so, but I realize the point made that obviously, others are missing all the warning signs and seeing it there might be the last warning that does some good. That's a GOOD thing! It's just not personally good enough that I'd prioritize it real heavily, but it's still a good thing to have, so I won't argue with OTHERS prioritizing it. =8^) -- Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman in http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2004/12/22/rms_interview.html -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Welcome Back, Cummings
Seemant Kulleen wrote: [Mike is back] Yai! Welcome, we really needed you back (beside that ruby is quite nice, *cough*) lu -- Luca Barbato Gentoo/linux Developer Gentoo/PPC Operational Leader http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 42 "Critical News Reporting" Round Two
051107 Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > 7 Nov 2005 15:12:20 -0500 Philip Webb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> I'm serious -- Gentoo should try to follow international standards > The format specified in GLEP 1 is an international standard. > It's just not the same international standard that you're after. I'm not sure how it can be an international standard when it uses an English abbreviation 'Aug' for the month (raised eyebrow), but as someone said: "I love standards: there are so many to choose from". -- ,, SUPPORT ___//___, Philip Webb : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Centre for Urban & Community Studies TRANSIT`-O--O---' University of Toronto -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 43: GLEP File Hosting
I suppose my only question is, why can't examples be inlined at the bottom of the glep, and simply use a in document link to reference them? On 11/7/05, Ciaran McCreesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Ok, this is a change to the GLEP process, so it itself needs to be a > GLEP... All it does is propose that GLEPs be allowed to stick example > code in a subdirectory rather than having to inline things or shove > them off on someone's devspace. > > Text version attached. An HTML version will be up on the main site > whenever the web nodes next sync -- may be wise to read that instead if > you aren't familiar with RST :: blocks. > > -- > Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Anti-XML, anti-newbie conspiracy) > Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org > Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm > > > > -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 42 "Critical News Reporting" Round Two
An internation standard that utilizes an international language... hrm On 11/7/05, Philip Webb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > 051107 Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > > 7 Nov 2005 15:12:20 -0500 Philip Webb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> I'm serious -- Gentoo should try to follow international standards > > The format specified in GLEP 1 is an international standard. > > It's just not the same international standard that you're after. > > I'm not sure how it can be an international standard > when it uses an English abbreviation 'Aug' for the month (raised eyebrow), > but as someone said: "I love standards: there are so many to choose from". > > -- > ,, > SUPPORT ___//___, Philip Webb : [EMAIL PROTECTED] > ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Centre for Urban & Community Studies > TRANSIT`-O--O---' University of Toronto > -- > gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list > > -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 43: GLEP File Hosting
On Mon, 7 Nov 2005 19:34:44 -0500 Dan Meltzer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: | I suppose my only question is, why can't examples be inlined at the | bottom of the glep, and simply use a in document link to reference | them? They can be, it's just really frickin' messy. It also makes it slightly harder to copy the code out, especially if tab/space indenting needs to be preserved. -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Anti-XML, anti-newbie conspiracy) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm pgpEkkxoHEwYk.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 43: GLEP File Hosting
Okay, it works according to my useless opinion :) On 11/7/05, Ciaran McCreesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Mon, 7 Nov 2005 19:34:44 -0500 Dan Meltzer > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > | I suppose my only question is, why can't examples be inlined at the > | bottom of the glep, and simply use a in document link to reference > | them? > > They can be, it's just really frickin' messy. It also makes it slightly > harder to copy the code out, especially if tab/space indenting needs to > be preserved. > > -- > Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Anti-XML, anti-newbie conspiracy) > Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org > Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm > > > > -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
Nathan L. Adams wrote: So you're saying that Gentoo consists of projects that are completely 'silo'd up' and have no bearing whatsoever on each other. Then the DevRel project only has bearing on those who actually join DevRel. Neat, a group formed for the sole purpose of coordinating itself. Security need only concern itself with securing its members (from who knows what!), and infra can just ignore the needs of everyone else (different project!). I wonder how any of the other projects *ever* made it onto the website... Sigh, every project can set up it's own rules for internal project tasks, that means that internal docs could be a set of nice ascii art and then, you have a nice GuideXML page to point to them than happens to be translated on html/pdf/plaintext/whatever upon the necessities. The errata.g.o (not the summaries w/ link that emerge would output) would obviously be documentation, would obviously be governed by the Doc rules, and it would be irrelevant which staff member happened to publish a particular guide. If Gentoo really is as balkanized as you state, then it is a sad state of affairs indeed. Maybe the 'full fledged' versions should be GuideXML-lite or something, I'm not sure, but your argument is just silly. ARGH looks like MANY people do not get what is good about xml and what is not so good. The whole point of using GuideXML is to make EASY convert to something else. NOT to use it. The problem of using xml everywhere is that it is harder to write and has some work required in order to be parsed and translated. So, if I have to set up an infrastructure that would require me to generate pdf, webpages, text, younameitwegetit and to update/write it not so often and not so quickly, I'd use xml. If there is something that I'd have to write often by hand and quickly and has to be used as is mostly. I'd stay with a simpler format (that maybe is still machine parsable). That said the format Ciaranm suggests for news looks ok for me. XML won't add anything but slowing me. For an errata site GuideXML or an _extended_ version of it could be useful. lu -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDa5WH2QTTR4CNEQARAlERAKCeVue4ATD4fXBgLGdRAWt4Gi7vWgCcCs7R w/Pvjk9vv2C00HmrTkhBnHU= =Eiba -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Luca Barbato Gentoo/linux Developer Gentoo/PPC Operational Leader http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
