FVWM: New default configuration wanted...

[Thomas Adam]

Hi all,

This intended to be something fairly long-running, and I personally don't
wish to make the UI decisions myself, although I will keep a very close eye
on the FVWM-specific aspects of a proposed config to make sure it's done
"right".

What do I mean when I say "right"?  Well, for far too long now FVWM has had
a major thorn in its side -- the default config *sucks* to put it bluntly.
It's been a well known issue for years that it looks like a throwback to
1995 [1] and it's time to modernise it a bit.

There was an aborted attempt at this by Nick Fortune and myself [2] which
you should read before attempting this, as although the thread is a good
five years old now, the concept in there are not.  *Please read it*.

I want a few things from a new config:

* It should look "modern" (I'll leave that interpretation open-ended.)
* It should be minimal, but functional -- and not depend on *any* external
  dependencies that do not come with FVWM itself.
* The config file should be documented heavily -- as an example to look
  towards for new users.

Do not worry about the FVWM-specific things about integrating it with
FvwmForm-Setup and the like -- eventually, that'll be my job as there's
other surrounding problems with that.

I will also help where necessary with the documentation of such a config, as
that's where my interests lie overall in terms of its usefulness.

All I am really looking to see what the interest involved in this is.  I
warn you though, I won't hesitate to put a stop to it if this turns into a
shed-painting exercise -- I don't want that.  I can already foresee a bunch
of shed-painting, and I won't tolerate it.  It needs to be done in a
civilised manner.  Come to a consensus amongst yourselves; just don't
involve me in them, unless you have FVWM-specific questions.  :P

I'm not expecting anything quick on this -- I'd like to do it in stages, and
I want people to go away and think on it, and come up with ideas,
suggestions, etc.

I know we have projects already like fvwm-{themes,crystal} etc., and they're
great, but completely peripheral to what I am after, really.  I want a
config that just makes FVWM not look like a dinosaur out of the box.

So, thinking/creative hats on, guys.  This is a great way for someone who
isn't a programmer to contribute.

Any questions, ask.

-- Thomas Adam

[1]  As many know, I like the MWM look, but apparently, that's dead now.  :P
[2]  http://www.fvwmforums.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=205&start=150

Re: FVWM: New default configuration wanted...

[Tom Horsley]

No don't do it! Pretty soon you'll be caught up in the whole
newer is better philosophy that KDE and GNOME are trapped in
and no one on the planet will have any idea how to use fvwm
because it keeps moving everything around and changing
in every release.

I'd suggest my default config, but you obviously wouldn't
want it since it strips out stuff I think is too glitzy
from the current default :-).

Re: FVWM: New default configuration wanted...

[Thomas Adam]

On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 08:53:58AM -0400, Tom Horsley wrote:
> No don't do it! Pretty soon you'll be caught up in the whole
> newer is better philosophy that KDE and GNOME are trapped in
> and no one on the planet will have any idea how to use fvwm
> because it keeps moving everything around and changing
> in every release.

Heh -- I am not suggesting that!  It would be fairly static once in place --
it's a *window manager* after all.  Things like:

* New FvwmButtons -- swallowing things like:
- FvwmIconMan
- FvwmScript (maybe a clock?)
- FvwmPager

* Change the window decors a bit -- maybe use colorset gradients?
* Don't look like MWM by default?

etc., etc.

That level of "minimal", but functional.

It should be easy to do -- especially for the menus now fvwm-menu-desktop
uses XDG, etc.

These sorts of changes *would* stand the test of time, unlike GNOME/KDE,
etc., who seem to have it as a pre-requisite that changing the default look
with each release is needed.

-- Thomas Adam

Re: FVWM: New default configuration wanted...

[despen]

Thomas Adam  writes:

> All I am really looking to see what the interest involved in this is.  I
> warn you though, I won't hesitate to put a stop to it if this turns into a
> shed-painting exercise -- I don't want that.  I can already foresee a bunch
> of shed-painting, and I won't tolerate it.

Shed painting?

Is that anything like a can of worms?

Some ideas:

Right now we offer 2 easy defaults:

Setup Form
Setup 95

The first gives a pager and menus for launching,
icons for minimized applications, and commented out
skeletons for other modules and customization.

The second gives a taskbar.


Of course, neither suits me but if I had to start
over I'd start with the Form.  It would be nice
if there was only one setup path.

There is more to this than just appearance.
Each choice involves key bindings, appearance,
window button function, mode of operation (task bars,
icons, pagers).

Whatever we do, there has to be a way for users to avoid it.
That was the logic behind the customization thing I posted about
a while ago, each thing that installed itself provides a
hook that un-installs itself.

Re: FVWM: New default configuration wanted...

[Thomas Adam]

Hi Dan,

On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 09:59:48AM -0400, des...@verizon.net wrote:
> Thomas Adam  writes:
> 
> > All I am really looking to see what the interest involved in this is.  I
> > warn you though, I won't hesitate to put a stop to it if this turns into a
> > shed-painting exercise -- I don't want that.  I can already foresee a bunch
> > of shed-painting, and I won't tolerate it.
> 
> Shed painting?
> 
> Is that anything like a can of worms?

Not really -- you might know it termed as "bike-shedding" as well?  :)

> Some ideas:
> 
> Right now we offer 2 easy defaults:
> 
> Setup Form
> Setup 95
> 
> The first gives a pager and menus for launching,
> icons for minimized applications, and commented out
> skeletons for other modules and customization.
> 
> The second gives a taskbar.
> 
> 
> Of course, neither suits me but if I had to start
> over I'd start with the Form.  It would be nice
> if there was only one setup path.

Yes -- I'm all for opt-in/opt-out and toggling components on and off via a
single interface using FvwmForm -- I didn't necessarily want that to go away
which is why I was ignoring it for now, and wanting to let people come up
with aesthetics; I can then split up such a config into different parts,
much like what FvwmForm-Setup currently offers.  I just didn't want to
burden someone with that as a requisite for coming up with a config.

> There is more to this than just appearance.
> Each choice involves key bindings, appearance,
> window button function, mode of operation (task bars,
> icons, pagers).

Yep -- that's where I depart, and let others think on this.  :)

> Whatever we do, there has to be a way for users to avoid it.
> That was the logic behind the customization thing I posted about
> a while ago, each thing that installed itself provides a
> hook that un-installs itself.
> 

See above, hopefully that covers this.

-- Thomas Adam

Re: FVWM: New default configuration wanted...

[despen]

Thomas Adam  writes:

> Hi Dan,
>
> On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 09:59:48AM -0400, des...@verizon.net wrote:
>> Thomas Adam  writes:
>> 
>> > All I am really looking to see what the interest involved in this is.  I
>> > warn you though, I won't hesitate to put a stop to it if this turns into a
>> > shed-painting exercise -- I don't want that.  I can already foresee a bunch
>> > of shed-painting, and I won't tolerate it.
>> 
>> Shed painting?
>> 
>> Is that anything like a can of worms?
>
> Not really -- you might know it termed as "bike-shedding" as well?  :)

Nope, but I think I have it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_Law_of_Triviality

Re: FVWM: New default configuration wanted...

[Kathryn Andersen]

On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 02:02:52PM +0100, Thomas Adam wrote:
> 
> Heh -- I am not suggesting that!  It would be fairly static once in place --
> it's a *window manager* after all.  Things like:
> 
> * New FvwmButtons -- swallowing things like:
>   - FvwmIconMan
>   - FvwmScript (maybe a clock?)
>   - FvwmPager

I personally don't care what modules are in there by default; the thing
that desperately needs changing is the aesthetics.  At the absolute
minimum, the colour scheme needs to be changed.  The existing default
one is horrible.

We don't want to be bikeshedding about what particular colour scheme is
used; just something pleasing to the eye which is neither too garish nor
too boring.

One program I've found helpful in devising colour schemes is Agave.
http://home.gna.org/colorscheme/

Another program which is more oriented towards window managers is
the perl module+script Graphics::Colourset
http://search.cpan.org/~rubykat/Graphics-Colourset-0.01/
This one does more of the work for you - you just have to input a hue,
and it will generate N sets of semi-random but harmonious colours.

> * Change the window decors a bit -- maybe use colorset gradients?

YES.

> * Don't look like MWM by default?
Certainly not that clunky, no.  But I do think using vector buttons for
the titlebar buttons is a good idea; for a default config, it is better
if it doesn't depend on images for buttons.  There are lots of great
examples of vector buttons on the fvwm website to choose from.

Kathryn Andersen
-- 
 _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen  
/  \| 
\_.--.*/| 
  v | 
| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha!  |   -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe

Re: FVWM: New default configuration wanted...

[Julien Guertault]

Apr 19, 2011 at 14:27, Kathryn Andersen :
> On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 02:02:52PM +0100, Thomas Adam wrote:
>>
>> [we need a new default config]
>
> [at very least the colour scheme]
>
> One program I've found helpful in devising colour schemes is Agave.
> http://home.gna.org/colorscheme/
>
> Another program which is more oriented towards window managers is
> the perl module+script Graphics::Colourset
> http://search.cpan.org/~rubykat/Graphics-Colourset-0.01/

On the choice of colorset in particular, I have found the following
website particularly useful:

http://colorschemedesigner.com/


On the topic of renewing the default config, launching the topic is a
very good initiative. I believe it would benefit to FVWM if it looked and
felt good enough out of the box.

Does this have to be some underground task with someone motivated
enough to get it done, or is there any way it gets a more collaborative
direction? I am thinking of the way a Wiki page may start from a rough
draft and slowly improve as people change things here and there.

Maybe a first step could be to gather people's opinion on what such an
out of the box configuration should provide and look like?

Anyway, I am looking forward to seeing what this will lead to.


P.S.: congrats on releasing 2.6. ;)

-- 
Julien Guertault