Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

2018-10-17 Thread Nikita Druba

04.10.2018 0:05, Brooks Davis пишет:

Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<<

FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md)
outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12
and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and
improving the network stack.  We have discussed this within the
core team and intend to move forward as proposed.  We are solictiting
feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal.

The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:

ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe

The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is:

dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl

The criteria for exception are:
  - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the
support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023).
- 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be
  deemed satisfy the "popular"
  requirement.
  - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform usable.
  - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.)

Please reply to this message with nominations to the exception list.

The full FCP-0101 is included below.

-- Brooks

---
authors: Brooks Davis 
state: feedback
---

# FCP 101: Deprecation and removal of 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Deprecate most 10 and 10/100Mbps Ethernet drivers and remove them before
FreeBSD 13.

## Problem Statement

Each network driver creates drag for the project as we attempt to
improve the network stack or provide new features such as expanded
32-bit compatibility.  For example, the author has edited every single
NIC driver more than once in the past year to update management (`ioctl`)
interfaces.  We could improve this situation by converting drivers to
iflib, but each additional driver takes work.

10 and 100 megabit Ethernet drivers are largely irrelevant today
and we have a significant number of them in the tree.  The ones that
are no longer used and/or are not known to be working need to be
removed due to the significant ongoing 'tax' on new development.

For at least a decade, most systems (including small embedded
systems) have shipped with gigabit Ethernet devices and virtual
machines commonly emulate popular gigabit devices.  We wish to
retain support for popular physical and virtual devices while
removing support for uncommon ones.  With a few exceptions these
drivers are unlikely to be used by our user base by the time FreeBSD
12 is obsolete (approximately 2024).

## Proposed Solution

We propose to deprecate devices which are not sufficiently popular.  This
will entail:
  - (October 2018) Send this list to freebsd-net and freebsd-stable.
  - (Before FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - October 2018) Update the manpages and
attach routines for each device to be removed and merge those changes
to FreeBSD 12.
  - (One month after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - January 2018) Remind
freebsd-net and freebsd-stable users of pending deletion.
  - (Two months after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - February 2019) Delete deprecated
devices.

Through out this process, solicit feedback on additions to the exception
list and update this document as required.  For a device to be placed on
the exception list the device must meet one of the following criteria:
  - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the
support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023).
- 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be
  deemed satisfy the "popular"
  requirement.
  - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform usable.
  - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.)

### Exceptions to removal

Device | Reason
---|-
ffec   | Onboard Ethernet for Vybrid arm7 boards
fxp| Popular device long recommended by the project.
dc | Popular device for CardBus card.
hme| Built in interface on many supported sparc64 platforms.
le | Emulated by QEMU, alternatives don't yet work for mips64.
sis| Soekris Engineering net45xx, net48xx, lan1621, and lan1641.
vr | Soekris Engineering net5501, some Asus motherboards.
xl | Popular device for CardBus card.

Note: USB devices have been excluded from consideration in this round.

### Device to be removed

ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe

## Final Disposition

TBD

Hello!

My servers use rl and bfe devices from deprecated list. Also I have some 
ed devices for replacement failed adapters.


Also I can try do convertion to iflib for bfe, rl and ed devices, but 
still no one not showed good example driver that has already been 
converted...


P.S. So late, because I was away and just returned.



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Re: Latest update to ATI driver broke in same way as using DRM-next did

2018-10-17 Thread Niclas Zeising

On 10/16/18 6:16 PM, Pete French wrote:
I am using drm-next, but actually I ended up getting this to work by 
stripping off all packges from the machine yesterday, deleting all of 
/usr/local and starting adding things from scratch. Am now running fine 
with drm-next and all works as expected.


When I was having the issues, however, xrandr only showed one outout on 
the card, which puzzled me (there are 4 outputs).




Good that you got it working.  I don't know exactly what changed.  One 
guess might be the updated versions of xf86-video-ati or 
xf86-video-radeon, if you are using them.

Regards
--
Niclas Zeising
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

2018-10-17 Thread Matthieu Volat

On Wed, 3 Oct 2018 21:05:16 +
Brooks Davis  wrote:

> >>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<<  
> 
> FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md)
> outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12
> and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and
> improving the network stack.  We have discussed this within the
> core team and intend to move forward as proposed.  We are solictiting
> feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal.
> 
> The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:
> 
> ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe
> 
> The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is:
> 
> dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl
> 
> The criteria for exception are:
>  - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the
>support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023).
>- 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be
>  deemed satisfy the "popular"
>  requirement.
>  - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform usable.
>  - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.)
> 
> Please reply to this message with nominations to the exception list.
> 
> The full FCP-0101 is included below.
> 
> -- Brooks
> 
> ---
> authors: Brooks Davis 
> state: feedback
> ---
> 
> # FCP 101: Deprecation and removal of 10/100 Ethernet drivers
> 
> Deprecate most 10 and 10/100Mbps Ethernet drivers and remove them before
> FreeBSD 13.
> 
> ## Problem Statement
> 
> Each network driver creates drag for the project as we attempt to
> improve the network stack or provide new features such as expanded
> 32-bit compatibility.  For example, the author has edited every single
> NIC driver more than once in the past year to update management (`ioctl`)
> interfaces.  We could improve this situation by converting drivers to
> iflib, but each additional driver takes work.
> 
> 10 and 100 megabit Ethernet drivers are largely irrelevant today
> and we have a significant number of them in the tree.  The ones that
> are no longer used and/or are not known to be working need to be
> removed due to the significant ongoing 'tax' on new development.
> 
> For at least a decade, most systems (including small embedded
> systems) have shipped with gigabit Ethernet devices and virtual
> machines commonly emulate popular gigabit devices.  We wish to
> retain support for popular physical and virtual devices while
> removing support for uncommon ones.  With a few exceptions these
> drivers are unlikely to be used by our user base by the time FreeBSD
> 12 is obsolete (approximately 2024).
> 
> ## Proposed Solution
> 
> We propose to deprecate devices which are not sufficiently popular.  This
> will entail:
>  - (October 2018) Send this list to freebsd-net and freebsd-stable.
>  - (Before FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - October 2018) Update the manpages and
>attach routines for each device to be removed and merge those changes
>to FreeBSD 12.
>  - (One month after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - January 2018) Remind
>freebsd-net and freebsd-stable users of pending deletion.
>  - (Two months after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - February 2019) Delete deprecated
>devices.
> 
> Through out this process, solicit feedback on additions to the exception
> list and update this document as required.  For a device to be placed on
> the exception list the device must meet one of the following criteria:
>  - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the
>support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023).
>- 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be
>  deemed satisfy the "popular"
>  requirement.
>  - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform usable.
>  - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.)
> 
> ### Exceptions to removal
> 
> Device | Reason
> ---|-
> ffec   | Onboard Ethernet for Vybrid arm7 boards
> fxp| Popular device long recommended by the project.
> dc | Popular device for CardBus card.
> hme| Built in interface on many supported sparc64 platforms.
> le | Emulated by QEMU, alternatives don't yet work for mips64.
> sis| Soekris Engineering net45xx, net48xx, lan1621, and lan1641.
> vr | Soekris Engineering net5501, some Asus motherboards.
> xl | Popular device for CardBus card.
> 
> Note: USB devices have been excluded from consideration in this round.
> 
> ### Device to be removed
> 
> ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe
> 
> ## Final Disposition
> 
> TBD

Would it be possible to set a wiki page/section in 12 that display the current 
status of removal of those devices? That might be easier for people to look at 
their hardware actual state rather than try to trace every answer to this 
thread...

Thanks a lot!


pgpK0

Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

2018-10-17 Thread Warner Losh
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 11:52 AM Matthieu Volat  wrote:

> Would it be possible to set a wiki page/section in 12 that display the
> current status of removal of those devices? That might be easier for people
> to look at their hardware actual state rather than try to trace every
> answer to this thread...
>

The FCP is being updated and will be uploaded when that's done. At
this point, it seems that we have all the data to make the right decisions,
at least to tag the drivers deprecated for the 12.0 release when I'm sure
will get us additional data.

Warner
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

2018-10-17 Thread Matthieu Volat
On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 12:27:48 -0600
Warner Losh  wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 11:52 AM Matthieu Volat  wrote:
> 
> > Would it be possible to set a wiki page/section in 12 that display the
> > current status of removal of those devices? That might be easier for people
> > to look at their hardware actual state rather than try to trace every
> > answer to this thread...
> >  
> 
> The FCP is being updated and will be uploaded when that's done. At
> this point, it seems that we have all the data to make the right decisions,
> at least to tag the drivers deprecated for the 12.0 release when I'm sure
> will get us additional data.
> 
> Warner


Thanks for the info!


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