Re: Software Development using Freebsd.
On Mon, Feb 06, 2012 at 09:06:49PM -0700, Chad Perrin wrote: > On Mon, Feb 06, 2012 at 07:36:46PM -0800, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > > > > However, from personal experience, I know that Larry Wall understands > > Object Oriented Programming, and Guido definitely doesn't get it. > > Obviously, other people have worked on both languages, but keep that in > > mind. I can present my evidence of how Guido doesn't get it in a longer > > post, if prompted. > > I'm definitely curious. If you don't think this is the place for it, I'd > love to see your explanation in private email or by other means. > Me too. -- People will do tomorrow what they did today because that is what they did yesterday. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Using sendmail as a client with auth
On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 03:28:45PM +, Matthew Seaman wrote: > On 13/02/2012 15:08, Bernt Hansson wrote: > > Is this is OT then i'm sorry. > > > > Trying to get sendmail act as a mua, following this tutorial > > > > http://www.sendmail.org/~ca/email/auth.html > > > > Scroll down a bit to Using send > > > > Is it really necessary to install cycrus-sasl2? > > > > How do one make sendmail to pick sasl2 up when building sendmail. > > Is there a make.conf line I must add? When telnetting auth works > > but using telnet to send mail has a very low WAF. > > > > I've installed cyrus-sasl2 but then what. > > Yes -- you do need cyrus-sasl2 for this purpose. > > To build sendmail with SASL, either use the ports version in > mail/sendmail, where you can select SASL as one of the options, > or add: > >SENDMAIL_CFLAGS=-I/usr/local/include -DSASL=2 >SENDMAIL_LDFLAGS=-L/usr/local/lib >SENDMAIL_LDADD=-lsasl2 > > to /etc/make.conf -- see /usr/share/examples/etc/make.conf for more > details. This will give you a SASL-enabled base system sendmail once > you rebuild it. > > Note that the second choice makes your base system dependent on stuff > external to it, which may or may not be desirable. > > Oh, and before anyone else chimes in with a knee-jerk reaction about > using sendmail: there are other MTAs that can provide this > functionality. As an alternative, either postfix or exim could do what > you want too. Sendmail works just fine for me though. > If I understood Bernt correctly, he wants to use it to relay mail to some remote MTA (ISP's or similar). There are lightweight MTAs just for this purpose, I use mail/msmtp and it works great with multiple accounts. Usually, this is much simpler to set up than using a real MTA like Sendmail or Postfix. Not that I have anything against using Sendmail and friends for this purpose. Just my $0.02. ;) -- news: gotcha ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Using sendmail as a client with auth
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 06:49:52AM +0100, Bernt Hansson wrote: > 2012-02-13 17:35, Nikola Pavlović skrev: > > There are lightweight MTAs just for this purpose, > >I use mail/msmtp and it works great with multiple accounts. > >Usually, this is much simpler to set up than using > >a real MTA like Sendmail or Postfix. > > If it is simple then it's no fun ;) > Heh, true that. -- Without ice cream life and fame are meaningless. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: How to prevent gam_server from running?
On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 04:57:38PM -0600, Conrad J. Sabatier wrote: > Lately, I've been hovering hither and thither when it comes to which > desktop environment I choose when logging in, but several of them seem > to insist on starting gam_server, which is just a real CPU hog, and > once this thing is started, there's no stopping it. > PolicyKit is like that too. :) > I've looked and looked and still can't figure out how to disable it. I > can't even figure out where exactly it's being started from. Whether > it's GNOME or XFCE or what-have-you, at login, some add-on tool > somewhere is launching this thing, and I just plain don't want it! :-) It's not just desktop environments, a huge amount of 'normal' ports depend on it. I'm running a bare bones window manager and can't get rid of it. At first I thought polkit and gam_server were some kind of leftovers from a couple of months long experiment with KDE4, but after I made sure every last bit of KDE was gone from the system (it was like trying to kill those packs of core hounds in Molten Core[1]; older WoW players will appreciate the analogy) and tired to remove them, this is what I got (and still get; some of the more amusing dependants marked): # pkg_delete gamin\* pkg_delete: package 'gamin-0.1.10_4' is required by these other packages and may not be deinstalled: ORBit2-2.14.19 atk-2.0.1 dbus-glib-0.94 desktop-file-utils-0.18 eggdbus-0.6_1 gdk-pixbuf-2.23.5_1 gio-fam-backend-2.28.8 libIDL-0.8.14_1 libcroco-0.6.2_1 libgee-0.6.2.1 libimobiledevice-1.0.6_2 liblqr-1-0.4.1_2 policykit-0.9_6 py27-dbus-0.84.0 shared-mime-info-0.90 <--- enchant-1.6.0 gsettings-desktop-schemas-3.0.1 glib-networking-2.28.7_3 libsoup-2.34.3 loudmouth-1.4.3_6 mcabber-0.10.1_2 <--- cairo-1.10.2_3,1 gobject-introspection-0.10.8 pango-1.28.4 graphviz-2.28.0 vala-0.12.1 gtk-update-icon-cache-2.24.6 gtk-2.24.6 dconf-0.5.1_3 polkit-0.99 gconf2-2.32.0_2 libgsf-1.14.21 gtk-engines2-2.20.2 librsvg2-2.34.1 ImageMagick-6.7.4.4_1 <--- goffice-0.8.17 wv-1.2.9 abiword-2.8.4_1 consolekit-0.4.3 libnotify-0.7.3_1 firefox-10.0,1 gstreamer-0.10.35 gstreamer-plugins-0.10.35_1,3 py27-cairo-1.8.10 py27-gobject-2.28.6 libgpod-0.8.0 libglade2-2.6.4_4 gtkpod-1.0.0 hal-0.5.14_18 hal-info-20091130 lxappearance-0.5.1 xorg-server-1.7.7_3,1 nvidia-driver-285.05.09 nvidia-settings-285.05.09 py27-gstreamer-0.10.22 py27-gtk-2.24.0 py27-notify-0.1.1_8 trayer-srg-1.1.4 vim-7.3.121 wine-1.4.r2,1 xf86-input-keyboard-1.5.0 xf86-input-mouse-1.6.0 xf86-video-nv-2.1.18 xf86-video-vesa-2.3.0_1 xorg-drivers-7.5.1 xorg-7.5.1 xplanet-1.2.2_1 xscreensaver-5.15 zenity-2.32.1_1 musicpd-0.16.7 Sure, some of these are not direct dependencies, but this is the end result. At that point I just sighed, gazed away from the computer and decided to leave it be. :) (Yes some of the stuff in that list can be weeded out with pkg_cutleaves but they end coming back as build dependencies of other stuff that I do need). > > Any clues, anyone? I'm really worn out from trying to solve this one. > At this point I guess any GTK+ application (and I bet a lot of KDE ones too) that even remotely has anything to do with Gnome is going to result in pulling in gam_server (gamin). Maybe it's even a plain GTK+ thing... It seems like a lost battle. But the CPU hogging sounds strange. On my machine it just sits there seemingly doing nothing with probably constant 0 % CPU load and a few processes. [1] http://www.wowpedia.org/Core_Hound_Pack -- The thrill is here, but it won't last long You'd better have your fun before it moves along... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: [OT] Build deps caching (was: How to prevent gam_server from running?)
On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 08:00:28AM +, Matthew Seaman wrote: > On 16/02/2012 02:44, Nikola Pavlović wrote: > > (Yes some of the stuff in that list can be > > weeded out with pkg_cutleaves but they end coming back as build > > dependencies of other stuff that I do need). > > You know that portmaster(8) has the capability to delete build-only > dependencies? If you create packages of everything you build, the > effect can be that portmaster will just install the build dependency as > required for updates. > I now realize my algorithm for reading man portmaster was all wrong. :) When I started using FreeBSD I decided to not use packages, so I always disregarded all options dealing with them, and never made the connection between delete-build-only and local package caching. > Add this in portmaster.rc to do the deletion of build-only dependencies: > > PM_DEL_BUILD_ONLY=pw_dbo > I assume this is a typo, it should be 'pm_dbo'? > These will keep a cache of any packages you build, and use that cache > preferentially to reinstall anything (which is also really handy if > you've got a bunch of machines that can all share the same cache): > > MAKE_PACKAGE=gopt > PM_PACKAGES=first > LOCAL_PACKAGEDIR=/usr/ports/packages > PM_PACKAGES_LOCAL=pmp_local > Skimming through the man page and getopts part of portmaster I don't see a way to exclude some build-deps from being uninstalled. Am I missing something? I'm not sure ATM, but there could be some of them that are only ever build dependencies but which I want to keep installed for whatever reason. Anyway, thanks a lot for pointing this out, it's a really handy feature! -- There is a 20% chance of tomorrow. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: No updates needed to update system to 8.2-RELEASE-p6 but still on 8.2-RELEASE-p3
On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 05:17:59AM -0600, Antonio Olivares wrote: > On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 4:22 AM, Matthew Seaman > wrote: > > Here is the thing I alluded to under option (1). The security patch for > > the unix domain socket problem came out in two chunks. There was an > > original patch to fix the actual security problem, then a later followup > > patch to fix a bug that exposed in the linux emulation layer. It is > > possible to tell this from the text of the advisory as it exists at the > > moment, but you might not see it unless you are looking for it. The > > important bit of text is this: > > > > NOTE: The patch distributed at the time of the original advisory fixed > > the security vulnerability but exposed the pre-existing bug in the > > linux emulation subsystem. Systems to which the original patch was > > applied should be patched with the following corrective patch, which > > contains only the additional changes required to fix the newly- > > exposed linux emulation bug: > > > > Given that the second part of the patch was actually not a security fix, > > there would not have been a modified kernel distributed. So you got a > > bundle of three advisories issued together on 2011-09-28 resulting in > > FreeBSD 8.2-RELEASE-p3. Then later on, at 2011-10-04 a further update > > was issued modifying FreeBSD-SA-11:05-unix and technically taking the > > system to FreeBSD 8.2-RELEASE-p4. However, as this was not a security > > fix, it was not applied to the freebsd-update distribution channel. As > > none of the updates since then have touched the kernel, it will still > > show -p3 even though you are in fact fully patched against all known > > security problems. > > I hope this is the case, but that -p3 makes me think? I am hesistant If it will feel you more confident that everything is OK, I too have -p3 reported from the kernel, but -p6 in newvers.sh. I remember a discussion shortly after FreeBSD-SA-11:05-unix (maybe on freebsd-security@ but I'm not sure) about this confusion with patch level reported and if I remember correctly the conclusion was in agreement with what Matthew wrote above. > > Thank you very much for your kind explanation and hopefully I am in > the (4) category. How does one know when a new 8.2-RELEASE-pX, has > been released? where X is a number >= 6? > You could follow freebsd-announce@, and/or optionally freebsd-security@. All security advisories and errata patches are announced there. Alternatively, there are http://www.freebsd.org/security/advisories.html and http://www.freebsd.org/security/notices.html pages along with their RSS feeds http://www.freebsd.org/security/rss.xml and http://www.freebsd.org/security/errata.xml, respectively. -- "Have you lived here all your life?" "Oh, twice that long." ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: No updates needed to update system to 8.2-RELEASE-p6 but still on 8.2-RELEASE-p3
On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 06:00:50PM +, Matthew Seaman wrote: > On 19/02/2012 17:49, Nikola Pavlović wrote: > > If it will feel you more confident that everything is OK, I too have -p3 > > reported from the kernel, but -p6 in newvers.sh. I remember a > > discussion shortly after FreeBSD-SA-11:05-unix (maybe on > > freebsd-security@ but I'm not sure) about this confusion with patch > > level reported and if I remember correctly the conclusion was in > > agreement with what Matthew wrote above. > > Um... it's not really surprising that the two posts are in agreement. I > certainly read that other thread, and I may even have written that other > post you mention... > Sorry if I wasn't clear, I did not intend to question your answer (which, as usual, was thorough and most helpful) in any way, but only to point out, because Antonio expressed some doubt, that it isn't mere speculation and that the issue is known, and that he isn't the only one with "strange" -pX reported by uname (i.e. he can be confident that his system is up to date, as far as this is concerned). I don't remember who wrote what (and laziness prevents me from searching the archives), only that people who never use Linux emulation need not apply the follow up patch in which case -p3 is correct. -- About the only thing we have left that actually discriminates in favor of the plain people is the stork. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: sysinstall
On Sun, Mar 04, 2012 at 06:37:07AM +1030, David Walker wrote: > So I installed amd64 9.0 tonight and decided against installing "ports". > I'm at a point now where I'm thinking about adding it and I see sysinstall: > http://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/ports-using.html > Looks easy. > > For some unknown reason sysinstall spits the following: > > Warning: The disc currently in the drive is either not a FreeBSD > disc or it is an older (pre 1.2.5) FreeBSD CD which does not have a > version number on it. Do you wish to use this disc anyway? > It's probably because sysinstall doesn't understand the new distribution format--everything is now in /usr/freebsd-dist/ neatly packed in single archives, instead of the old way in /X.Y-RELENG_TAG/ with floppy-friendly split archives. > Like any sane person who burned this CD a few hours previously on the > same machine from within FreeBSD and then installed from it shortly > afterwards I click "Yes" ... > > So that doesn't work. > I wonder what would have happened if I had elected to install "ports" > during the initial install ... If you did it the normal way with bsdinstall then I guess everything would install correctly. But anyway, you can use the other methods mentioned in the handbook. Doing it with # portsnap fetch extract seems the most straight forward way to me. -- If you can't say anything good about someone, sit right here by me. -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: sysinstall
On Sun, Mar 04, 2012 at 07:24:23PM +1030, David Walker wrote:
> Nikola Pavlović nzp at riseup.net
> > If you did it the normal way
>
> Please define normal.
>
> As per the way you do it? Surely that's not what you mean right?
>
> As per the handbook?
> As per the man pages?
Believe it or not, reading my answer when it came back through the list
that was my thought too ('Damn, I should have been clearer what "normal"
means). :) In this particular case 'normal' meant 'as per what
bsdinstall suggested'.
>
> As per the way I usually do it?
> I'm new here so I don't have a normal way other than spending hours
> reading documentation ... and telling myself that everything that goes
> wrong is probably my fault.
> That's my normal way when I'm using new software.
>
Well, if you do everything the docs tell you to, then there is no reason
to think it's your fault.
> That's also my normal way when I'm familiar with something.
> Please tell me if that methodology is not as good as yours ...
>
> > with bsdinstall then I guess everything
> > would install correctly.
>
> I guess that also.
> Please read man sysinstall for me and point out why I should be
> guessing whether or not system utilities are intended to function as
> described.
I agree completely. This is a case of the 'no documentation is better
than wrong documentation' rule. The Handbook and man page should
clearly point out that sysinstall doesn't work with the new distribution
packaging. At any rate, once you step into 9.x land you should
forget about sysinstall. Hey, a mailing list is *a kind of*
documentation too. ;)
> Replies to the list are fine.
>
> > But anyway, you can use the other methods
> > mentioned in the handbook.
>
> ... and anyway, if cp(1) fails I can use dump(8) instead.
> Problem solved.
I don't understand why you are dumping your frustration on me. I
assure you I'm not responsible for documentation. :) And cp/dump analogy
is a bit flawed, they are different tools for different jobs, while the
other methods of installing the ports tree are just using a few
different tools that are *meant* for the job.
>
> > Doing it with
>
> > # portsnap fetch extract
>
> > seems the most straight forward way to me.
>
> Sysinstall seems the most straight forward way to me.
>
> It might be of interest to you that after spending an hour or so with
> sysinstall I proceeded to spend an hour or so with portsnap before it
> appeared to work.
What was the problem?
> My undocumented experience with it and what you apparently consider
> are normal and/or straight forward, seem, under the circumstances, of
> no import.
>
> If you want to espouse an opposing view without explanation or
> ridicule my methodology, knock yourself out but please do it like I'm
> your friend.
Um, what? What opposing view? Ridicule?! Whatisthisidonteven...
> A simple "use portsnap you clown" probably would have done it for me
> and put a smile on my face.
Why would I call you a clown if I don't think you are one? I don't
usually ridicule strangers, but when I do, I make sure there's a reason
for ridicule.
> In my experience that's the "normal" and "most straight forward" way
> someone who respects me might approach this ...
>
OK, here goes: (in Nelson Muntz's voice) Haha, you clown, that's what
you get for believing what documentation says. Use a magnetized needle
and a steady hand you buffoon!
There. I respect! :)
--
Laissez Faire Economics is the theory that if
each acts like a vulture, all will end as doves.
___
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Re: Still having trouble with package upgrades
On Wed, Mar 07, 2012 at 10:04:35PM -0500, David Jackson wrote: > On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 6:51 PM, Polytropon wrote: > > > On Wed, 7 Mar 2012 12:05:37 -0500, David Jackson wrote: > > > > Many of your issues are non-issues, as your suggestions were > > > > implemented in some form long ago. For example, updated applications > > > > are compiled and available online. You can use "pkg_add -r" to > > > > install the newest binary package that is available, or you can update > > > > your an installed application by updating the ports and using > > > > portupgrade, which has options to control whether you compile updates > > > > from source or install binary packages. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pkg-add -r does not seem to be an "upgrade all packages" sort of feature > > I > > > am looking for. I have tried pkg-upgrade, portmaster, and portupgrade, > > all > > > of these do not work. > > > > The portupgrade -PP command should be fine, if your ports > > tree is up to date. > > > > > > > portupgrade -PP did not work for me, it gave me error messages about failed > downloads. > Assuming you were trying on a RELEASE: Packages for a RELEASE are frozen. Since, most of the time, versions in ports tree are newer than the frozen ones, naturally, you'll get the error about failed download(s) (disregarding that in addition to that you might have proxy problems etc. that others have mentioned). Packages built against STABLE are generally up to date, and you can safely use them with the corresponding RELEASE. To do that, change the PACKAGESITE environment variable as described in http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/packages-using.html and pkg_fetch(1). -- Once the toothpaste is out of the tube, it's hard to get it back in. -- H. R. Haldeman ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Apple & FreeBSD relationship
On Wed, Mar 09, 2011 at 02:00:37PM -0800, Nerius Landys wrote: > This is not a technical question. > > Basically I have some cash sitting around. I'm thinking of investing > part of it with a company that I believe in. Apple came to mind. You > could say that I'd like to judge Apple's moral character before > investing money with them. A public company can't really have moral character. They are required to do whatever it takes to maximize profit for it's shareholders regardless of any moral considerations. Any ethical behaviour a public company may or may not display is determined by law and/or PR requirements. What I'm trying to say is that expecting a public company to be somehow inherently ethical or unethical is unreasonable (except Google and Facebook, of course, they're evil :D) > Does anyone know how Apple reciprocates to > FreeBSD? After all a lot of MacOSX is borrowed from FreeBSD. I am > not seeing Apple's name on this page: > http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/donate/sponsors.shtml . Are there > other ways in which Apple might be reciprocating? > As far as I'm aware their free/open source software contributions are not strictly FreeBSD specific, but FreeBSD does benefit. Off the top of my head, there's the Grand Central Dispatch framework which got ported to FreeBSD, and the LLVM/Clang which will soon replace GCC as the system compiler in FreeBSD (both very cool stuff). I'd say that if your investment criterion is "how much is company X giving back to the community", you could do a lot worse than Apple. Since you say you want to *invest* I won't try to persuade you to donate to the FreeBSD Foundation ;). -- No one should have to wait until after ten o'clock for his english muffin! -- Snoopy ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: For My Edification
On Mon, May 02, 2011 at 06:47:11PM -0400, Louis Marrero wrote: > > Here are some questions that can help my understanding: > > > 1. I know that Windows is an OS, and Linux/Unix as well as FreeBSD > are other Operating System. My very basic question is this: Is it even > possible to install a second OS, like FreeBSD on an existing Windows-based > computer? > Others have given you fine answers so I'll just point out something I think might be a good advice for a Unix novice: if you decide to install a Linux try to go with one of the more "traditional" distributions (I've recently read someone call then "time wasters" :)) like Slackware, Arch Linux or similar. The reason is they don't encourage you do do stuff the Windows way (like, for example, Ubuntu does). If you need to learn about Unix you'll learn much faster and better in such an environment. Both Slackware and Arch are BSD styled which is a little unusual in the Linux land. Of course, it's probably better to get the real thing and install one of the BSDs, FreeBSD probably being the sanest choice for a newcomer because of it's outstanding documentation (The FreeBSD Handbook is really a clear step-by-step guide to FreeBSD, and doesn't assume any prior Unix knowledge). > > > 2. Is it possible to link my Windows laptop to a web server with > Unix or FreeBSD and exercise Unix/Linux commands. If so, how is that done? > There is a number of servers that offer free shell accounts (a web server is a different thing) so you can practice and learn even without installing anything but PuTTY (an SSH client for Windows). I've never used any of them so I can't recommend any particular, but you can find a list of such servers on http://shells.red-pill.eu/ (it seems there are a few of them with FreeBSD). -- What is love but a second-hand emotion? -- Tina Turner ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD on Amazon AWS EC2 for production servers?
On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 09:42:01PM -0500, firm...@gmail.com wrote: > Hi, > > Amazon AWS offers a free tier service for the first year, for one > running instance of FreeBSD (and other OS's) It's a great place to > experiment for free if you don't have any spare hardware. I have > installed a few FreeBSD servers up there and it seems to work fine, > and I would like to take some servers up in the AWS system. Here is > some information to look at: > > http://www.daemonology.net/freebsd-on-ec2/ > > I posted the following on the AWS EC2 forum with no response, > therefore asking here to see if anyone is using EC2: > > Is anyone running production servers using the FreeBSD 8.2 AMI on EC2? > I want to take my servers up to AWS and run DNS, email, web, mysql, > apache, ssl, etc... mainly to have reliable power and I like the > versatility at AWS. For those on FreeBSD up here in AWS, how is it > working? Stable? Reliable? Any gotchas or knows issues you can share? > Any comments or feedback would be awesome to read! >From how I understood a Twit podcast on the subject featuring cperciva@ who did the porting, http://tarsnap.com runs on FreeBSD. Since it's a commercial service I can only assume it works good enough(tm), but I really have no first hand experience so consider this post wrapped in disclaimers :). -- If the meanings of "true" and "false" were switched, then this sentence would not be false. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD Kernel Internals Documentation
On Sat, Dec 31, 2011 at 03:32:17PM -0500, David Jackson wrote: > An OS should strive to be a better platform for many people, including > techies and non-techies. > > A good software design philosophy is that good software works out of the > box without configuration using reasonable defaults, but, that that the > software should be flexible, very configurable, the user should be able to > configure everything how they need it, but they should not be required to. > This allows the user to configure as much or as little as they want. > > Everything should be able to be accomplished with both GUI and CLI, and API. > > The entire system should be well understood, well documented and > transparent . Its like a car, its better to have a car that has a spacious > engine compartment and is very well documented in service manuals so that a > car mechanic can easily fix it. While not every user may want to get under > the hood, a spacious, well documented and easy to fix space under the hood > makes the mechanics job easier of fixing the car. The car being made more > reliable and easier to use as well means that the common driver has fewer > breakdowns. Windows is a terrible OS because its like a car with the entire > engine area sealed in a compartment that can only be opened with the car > manufacturer with a key, so mechanics cannot even repair it. > > There is no dount that UNIX is a better design system, due to the fact it > is open and the underlying systems are well understood, well defined and > well known, including due to the Unix philosophy of modularisation of > components. > > > I am in full agreement with Unix design philosophies and unix conventions. > I definitely oppose any effort to re-invent Unix or break with unix > conventionsand philosophies. It has been said that people who try to > reinvent Unix will do so poorly. I agree. I am very much in favour of > respecting Unix traditions, backwards compatability and conventions. For > instance, supporting the X11 Window System i think is something that we > should always commit to, it is important for compatability and for the > flexibility it provides. > Have you ever considered running for office? You would make an amazing politician! "Here's what's wrong with the world and how to fix it, but don't get me wrong, if you support the thing I'm trying to fix let me assure you that I don't think anything is wrong with it and that you too can safely vote for me." > I think tis okay to build additions to the system, but in addition, to the > existing components, not to overthrow existing parts of the system. > > Backwards compatability is very important which is why it is important to > respect conventions such as POSIX. > > I think that we can create a GUI front end built on top of the Unix system > that helps manage and configure the underlying Unix system for non-techie > users. This is layered design that gives us both the techie friendliness > and controllability of Unix and a GUI front end over that for non-techies. > No one should be required to use a GUI front end and should be able to > directly edit configuration files if they want and use the rich CLI that > FreeBSD has. This is a philosophy i like of allowing users to exercise as > much or as little fine control over the system as they want. OK, nice phylosophy. Obvious question: why aren't you on Ubuntu forums asking what button to press to get your USB capture device to work on 11.10? On a slightly more serious note, you seem to be unaware of PC-BSD. Also, KDE. I understand you think you thought things through and there can't possibly be anyone sane disagreeing with your vague ideas about usability, but allow me to yell in horror: "I don't want layers of bullshit piling inside of the operating system I use! Please no! A well documented config file will do just fine. Thanks." And I'm pretty sure an overwhelming majority of FreeBSD users and developers feel the same way, that's why I'm using it in the first place. And that's just the way it is now. Try replicating the wealth of information you get in various config files in FreeBSD in a GUI. Just how hard it is to open a simple text file in an editor and just fracking do what it tells you to in comments?! And it's not just the base system, any decent third party program has this wonderfull feature. How hard can it be?! Seriously. Sure, sometimes things can get confusing but that's the nature of any complex system, you can't make it go away with a GUI. What you're trying to solve is not an engineering but a mental health problem--an irrational fear of comupters specifically and of reading (and thinking even) in general. No user interface can solve this because it's not a user interface problem. It's like going to a mathemathics department at a university and demanding a GUI for math because most folks get a panic attack when they see funny lookin' symbols. And what the hell does all this have to do with ke
Re: FreeBSD Kernel Internals Documentation
On Sat, Dec 31, 2011 at 02:59:20PM -0500, David Jackson wrote: > > >> > > FreeBSD is very well documented! > > I guess a lot of people can't cope with how structured and professional it > > is. They are used to chaos, fear, uncertainty and doubt and feel > > comfortable that way. > > > > > My experience is that FreeBSD kernel documentation is spotty and not > really sufficient to understand the kernel. Without good documentation, > code can take so much time to decipher it might be quicker to just throw it > out and start from scratch. Maintainable code requires documentation. > What you wrote here is so full of generalizations and banal truisms mixed with weasel words that it doesn't really mean anything. > > >> 2. FreeBsd is a main-stream O/S-- just look at the number of different > >> architectures/applications which are supported by FreeBSD. > >> > > Main stream and top player for web and internet servers > > > > > FreeBSD is far from being mainstream or practical for most users. I tried So what? Using a helicopter to get from A to B is far from being mainstream and practical for most users of transportaion. That doesn't mean we should start putting wheels on them in hope more people who need cars will start using helicopters. > to use a USB video capture device. For you, what may be "useless" may be > indespensible for others. I don't think anyone is claiming FreeBSD shouldn't support as much reasonable hardware as possible. > We should improve FreeBSD to make it work for > better for more people, experts and non-techies alike. I am really appalled > at an attitude that some have against making it better, adding features and > functionality that will make for a smoother experience, its as if they dont > care about anyone else and want the OS to be useful to no one else. We need > to make it better for everyone. Why? But more importantly, define "better" and "everyone". Also, who is this "we"? I'm sorry but usually when someone starts lamenting that "we should x", especially in volunteer and FOSS projects, he/she usually means "anyone but me, I just want my stuff to work." So you want your USB capture device to work, maybe you skimmed through some documentation with the idea of writing a driver, but you can't make sense of anything. What are you doing on freebsd-questions posting meaningless fresh-out-of-college ideas about software development? You should be on freebsd-hackers asking specific question. Linus has a good, timeless answer for the kind of phylosophy essays you're writing here: "Talk is cheap, show me the code." Yes, it may seem harsh and user-unfriendly, but that's just the way it is. > > > 4. Drivers aren't really a limitation. Look at the history of computing, > >> that modern O/S support such diverse platforms is an amazing development. > >> As far as I'm concerned, FreeBSD supports main stream components, there > >> are > >> no classes of components that I'm aware of which aren't supported by > >> FreeBSD. If you need to use a particular device, for which there is no > >> driver, historically it's not unusual to find that on any particular > >> platform a particular device is not supported. > >> > > It supports most things except the things you wouldn't want anyway > > > > > Drivers are a huge limitation, the lack of them, Here I beleive you are > just plain wrong. The fact is, people do not want to have to think about > whether or not their hardware will work with an OS or fight the OS for days > to make it work. Trhe truth is on Windows things really do just work. Ive > set up Windows, I know this. Windows has other things however which make it > undesirable to use. What I want to use is combine the things Windows has > right with an open source, free OS. The way things are now does not make > since, you can use Windows, and the hardwarw works, but its a closed > platform. You can use FreeBSD, which has bad hardware support, but is an > open platform. I want to see an open platforn that has great hardware > support, even if we have to use binary drivers. > Let's ignore the oxymoronic open platform-binary drivers idea for a moment. Where did you get the idea that FreeBSD community in general discards binary drivers? How about bitching to the manufacturer of your USB capture device? "What, you mean drivers don't magically grow on trees ready to be plucked?!" > > > >> 5. Nobody is making anyone use FreeBSD. It's free. If you don't enjoy it, > >> don't use it. Maybe remove yourself from the mailing list-- or don't, if > >> you just want to stay informed. > >> > > If you don't like it, please leave, there are a lot of alternatives > > > > > What you are saying here is that your idea is instead of FreeBSD being > responsive to the needs of all users, you basically want to own the project > and dont care about anyone else. > No, he is saying you should act rationally and either use the tool that gets your job done, or if you don't like the tool start doing
Re: FreeBSD Kernel Internals Documentation
On Mon, Jan 09, 2012 at 03:56:39PM -0500, David Jackson wrote: > > And that's just the way it is now. Try replicating the wealth of > > information you get in various config files in FreeBSD in a GUI. Just > > how hard it is to open a simple text file in an editor and just fracking > > do what it tells you to in comments?! And it's not just the base > > system, any decent third party program has this wonderfull feature. How > > hard can it be?! Seriously. Sure, sometimes things can get confusing > > but that's the nature of any complex system, you can't make it go away > > with a GUI. > > > > > > I absolutely agree that no one should be required to use a GUI. it should > be there for those that want to use it. But you should be able to directly > use config files if you would like, the GUI in any case would just be a > front end to config files that, you would not need to use the GUI if you do > not want to. A GUI for some users can improve useability. > Well, as I said, there's PC-BSD. I haven't tried it, and don't have a need for it, but as far as I can tell people who like that sort of stuff seem to enjoy it. And if one would like to work on such tools, it's the place to do it because a) it exists and that's its purpose, and b) because of a) FreeBSD should be then left free of such complications and focused on substance. One problem with your approach is that it never stops at "just being a front end to config files". I don't know why this is so, but in practice it seems that every time you try such a thing it becomes a mandatory unmaintainable mess. At lest that's how it ends up on Unix(-like) OSes. Or it ends up sort of working, but you're stuck with GUI developers' assumptions on how stuff works and should be done. I think that FOSS community just needs to accept that different categories of users have different needs and one single OS can't be everything to every person. "World domination" ideas are just silly and pointless, or as Bill Joy said: "What was the goal of the Linux community--to replace Windows? One can imagine higher aspirations." I think recent developments with tablet computers are showing that most people kinda don't need, or even want, a full blown workstation/desktop computer and OS overhead that comes with it. I have my serious reservations on where this trend will lead us, and I'm not really comfortable with it (fortunately, people are becoming aware of these issues, see various discussions on the decline of general purpose computer and similar on the net and meatspace), but on the other hand I can't deny it makes sense. Fortunately this battle is not yet lost and projects like CyanogenMod are extremely important, as is strong activism towards mobile hardware vendors to make their devices open and standardized the way PC architecture (for the most part) is. HTC decided to sell easily unlockable phones because of consumer pressure, so it can be done. On the other hand, I don't think people who can help improve FreeBSD and make it continually viable for it's real purpose (server and professional workstation) are scared of config files and vi. On the contrary. (Same goes for other two major BSDs). > > > > > > > I think that we should be pragmatic about binary drivers and that it > > better > > > to accept and welcome binary drivers from hardware companies. Open source > > > drivers should of course be developed, then users can use the open source > > > drivers as they become available, but, until then, they can use the > > binary > > > driver, or use a binary driver for more rare and unusual hardware. > > > > > > > You are either confusing FreeBSD with OpenBSD or just plain trolling. > > > > > I would never troll. Everything I say is my sincere view, I do not say > anything to offend people. > I believe you, but seriously, AFAIK FreeBSD has never been too hostile to binary blobs. Most of the time when a blob is necessary and nonexistant it's the case of a vendor being lazy or incompetent. Or they just sell mass market junk hardware and are only interested in Windows no matter what you do. Some printer vendors are perfect examples of retarded--printers don't even need a kernel space driver, or at least shouldn't need one, all that is required is a filter you can plug into pretty much standardized Unix printing schemes; hell, even Apple insists that printers have no place inside the kernel. If they are such bottom feeders that they are incapable of making a program to convert Postscript input to their stupid proprietary control language, I'm afraid there's not much FreeBSD can do about that. > As for my idea for a driver compatability layer of some sort, I have looked > into doing that myself, Its not something i have asked anyone to do, that > is the reason I have been studying the freebsd kernel. > I've taken a quick look at I/O Kit docs when you mentioned it (it's an interesting idea). IANA kernel developer, but it doesn't seem viable. Apple c
Re: Support Issue 164620
On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 06:28:25PM -0600, Morris Allen wrote: > > > To whom it may concern: > > > > My question is? So is this problem in the process of being looked > at? Or am I being directed to a different group in the BSD support staff? > > It's an automatic notice to let you know the issue tracker has received the problem report. So hopefully, someone will look at it. > > http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=164620 > It seems you just pasted the text from the docs (Handbook probably) on GEOM RAID 1, without any info as to what is the problem you're having. Not to mention the wrong "Environment" entry etc. I think you would benefit from reading this: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/problem-reports/index.html -- I am ready to meet my Maker. Whether my Maker is prepared for the great ordeal of meeting me is another matter. -- Winston Churchill ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: OT: Slackware: Starting Servers at Boot
On Thu, Feb 02, 2012 at 01:21:41PM -0800, Waitman Gobble wrote: > On Feb 2, 2012 1:09 PM, "Chris Maness" wrote: > > > > > > After more searching it turns out that all that one needs to do is > > make the rc.bind executable in the rc.d directory. Wow, that is as > > straight forward as it comes. > > Slackware is as straight forward as a Linux distro can get. If FreeBSD and Slackware both dissapeared I would be tempted to give up on computing (well, not really, but you get the picture). :) > > might be dated info but GNU/Linux usually has sep directory for each run > level, so you can have one "without X" for example. pretty sure ntsysv is a > front end to rc directories with toggle on-off executable bit Slack doesn't do that madness, it has BSD-style init scripts and the only thing you need to do is, as Chris said, to make desired scripts in /etc/rc.d executable. There really aren't any tools such as ntsysv or rcconf in Slackware as far as I remember, at least not in "base" system but there might be some made by community. -- Tax reform means "Don't tax you, don't tax me, tax that fellow behind the tree." -- Russell Long ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Troubleshooting a gmirror disk marked broken
Hi, Last night during a massive (~1 year worth :| ) portsnap fetch the server went unresponsive and ssh eventually disconnected. I decided to leave it during the night, and, sure enough, the situation was the same in the morning, so I had to do a hard reset. It came back up, but one of the two gmirror components was marked as broken and deactivated. The hang happened during the 'fetching new files or ports' (~24000 of them, there are currently ~1 snapshots in /var/db/portsnap) phase of postsnap fetch. /var/log/messages was completely silent during the period between the hang and the reset. Googling around I found a mention that it's possible to sometimes get a 'blip'[*] during busy periods, so I decided to just bite the bullet and reinsert the component with # gmirror forget gm0 # gmirror clean ad4 # gmirror insert gm0 ad4 Currently it's syncing and things *seem* OK. My question is how much should I be worried and what could be the cause of this? Is it possible that ports snapshot fetching caused this, or that perhaps it was the other way around (a failing disk causing the machine to choke during the huge portsnap fetch)? How to proceed? :) At the moment I'm attaching smartctl -a results for both disks (ad4 was marked broken). As I'm completely useless in deciphering smartctl results (apart from being thought by experience to pretty much ignore(tm) the 'Pre-fail' statuses), I'd appreciate assessment from more knowledgeable people. Also attached is a trimmed /var/log/messages from the moment of hard reset on (I can fill in the snipped parts, just didn't want to choke people with possibly irrelevant details). $ uname -a FreeBSD isus 8.3-RELEASE-p3 FreeBSD 8.3-RELEASE-p3 #0: Tue Jun 12 00:39:29 UTC 2012 r...@amd64-builder.daemonology.net:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC amd64 --- [*] http://www.eztiger.org/2008/08/removing-and-re-adding-a-disk-in-gmirror/ -- If you analyse anything, you destroy it. -- Arthur Miller smartctl 5.42 2011-10-20 r3458 [FreeBSD 8.3-RELEASE-p3 amd64] (local build) Copyright (C) 2002-11 by Bruce Allen, http://smartmontools.sourceforge.net === START OF INFORMATION SECTION === Model Family: Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 Device Model: ST3320620AS Serial Number:5QF1FDAS Firmware Version: 3.AAE User Capacity:320,072,933,376 bytes [320 GB] Sector Size: 512 bytes logical/physical Device is:In smartctl database [for details use: -P show] ATA Version is: 7 ATA Standard is: Exact ATA specification draft version not indicated Local Time is:Thu Jun 27 03:55:37 2013 CEST SMART support is: Available - device has SMART capability. SMART support is: Enabled === START OF READ SMART DATA SECTION === SMART overall-health self-assessment test result: PASSED General SMART Values: Offline data collection status: (0x82) Offline data collection activity was completed without error. Auto Offline Data Collection: Enabled. Self-test execution status: ( 0) The previous self-test routine completed without error or no self-test has ever been run. Total time to complete Offline data collection:( 430) seconds. Offline data collection capabilities:(0x5b) SMART execute Offline immediate. Auto Offline data collection on/off support. Suspend Offline collection upon new command. Offline surface scan supported. Self-test supported. No Conveyance Self-test supported. Selective Self-test supported. SMART capabilities:(0x0003) Saves SMART data before entering power-saving mode. Supports SMART auto save timer. Error logging capability:(0x01) Error logging supported. General Purpose Logging supported. Short self-test routine recommended polling time:( 1) minutes. Extended self-test routine recommended polling time:( 115) minutes. ATA Version is: 7 ATA Standard is: Exact ATA specification draft version not indicated Local Time is:Thu Jun 27 03:55:37 2013 CEST SMART support is: Available - device has SMART capability. SMART support is: Enabled === START OF READ SMART DATA SECTION === SMART overall-health self-assessment test result: PASSED General SMART Values: Offline data collection status: (0x82) Offline data collection activity was completed without error. Auto Offline Data Collection: Enabled. Self-test execution status:
Re: Troubleshooting a gmirror disk marked broken
On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 10:09:33PM -0500, Adam Vande More wrote: > On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 9:38 PM, Nikola Pavlović wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > Last night during a massive (~1 year worth :| ) > > portsnap fetch > > > > the server went unresponsive and ssh eventually disconnected. I decided > > to leave it during the night, and, sure enough, the situation was the > > same in the morning, so I had to do a hard reset. It came back up, but > > one of the two gmirror components was marked as broken and deactivated. > > > > The hang happened during the 'fetching new files or ports' (~24000 of > > them, there are currently ~1 snapshots in /var/db/portsnap) phase > > of postsnap fetch. > > > > /var/log/messages was completely silent during the period between the > > hang and the reset. > > > > Googling around I found a mention that it's possible to sometimes get a > > 'blip'[*] during busy periods, so I decided to just bite the bullet and > > reinsert the component with > > # gmirror forget gm0 > > # gmirror clean ad4 > > # gmirror insert gm0 ad4 > > > > Currently it's syncing and things *seem* OK. My question is how much > > should I be worried and what could be the cause of this? Is it possible > > that ports snapshot fetching caused this, or that perhaps it was the other > > way around (a failing disk causing the machine to choke during the huge > > portsnap fetch)? How to proceed? :) > > > > The messages log definitely shows problems with your io. The smart log of > the disks are also at least mildly concerning and indicates the drives are > in a preliminary stage of death. Some HD deaths take years to complete. > Expect random glitches and intermittent reduced performance as a continuous > degradation. You might be able to alleviate some of this by switching to > the AHCI driver and bumping up timeouts but at the end of the day 2 flaky > disks in a mirror don't inspire confidence. > About AHCI, it didn't attach after setting ahci_load="YES" in loader.conf so I assumed it wasn't enabled in BIOS. As I don't have physical access to the machine I asked the support to enable it, and presumably they did (that's what they said, and the machine was rebooted when they said they did). But still no luck. It's a VIA 6420 controller and maybe it doesn't support AHCI (couldn't find anything definitive on the net about that). If that's the case, is it even possible that there exists an option to enable it in BIOS? I'm confused because they didn't say it doesn't support it, but explicitly that they enabled it. It's possible to request KVM-over-IP, so I can look for myself, but I don't want to waste time (and install Java just for this) if it's useless. -- To criticize the incompetent is easy; it is more difficult to criticize the competent. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Troubleshooting a gmirror disk marked broken
On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 10:06:45AM -0700, Charles Swiger wrote: > Hi-- > > On Jun 27, 2013, at 9:58 AM, Adam Vande More wrote: > > On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 10:16 AM, Charles Swiger wrote: > >> If you haven't rebuilt the mirror already, running a full disk read scan > >> against both drives (ie, via "dd if=/dev/ad4 of=/dev/null bs=1m" or > >> similar) > >> might be prudent. That will help identify/migrate any sectors which are > >> failing but still recoverable via ECC to the spare sectors. > > > > I was going to say something like that too but AFAIK sectors aren't > > remapped on failed reads, has to be written to(dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/ad4 > > bs=1m). If it were me, I make sure I had fully tested complete backups > > before I broke the mirror and did that. > > > If the drive reads a sector with ECC-correctable errors, it's supposed to try > to re-write that sector in order to fix up the ECC data. If that write > fails, it remaps. > > Of course, your suggestion of blanking the entire drive and restoring from > the mirror or a backup would be best, or perhaps "better short of replacing > the drive". > OK, thank you both for suggestions. It rebuilt fine, and it's working fine. If it starts giving me trouble again I'll try your suggestions, or, ultimately, ask to get the disk replaced (although I don't expect a much better replacement, it's one of those cheap rental servers, you get what you pay :)) I'm still a bit reluctant to run the ports tree update again, but I'll ask on -ports@ for further assistance with that. -- Writing free verse is like playing tennis with the net down. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Troubleshooting a gmirror disk marked broken
On Sat, Jun 29, 2013 at 12:36:59AM +0200, Nikola Pavlović wrote: > I'm still a bit reluctant to run the ports tree update again, but I'll > ask on -ports@ for further assistance with that. > Actually, no need. I retried it and it worked without any problem. -- "Fantasies are free." "NO!! NO!! It's the thought police" ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: texlive and package updating
On 09/08/13 18:40, Tim Daneliuk wrote: > I've given up on all OS distribution-based TexLive drops. I install > texlive manually from their installer and then run tlmgr under > cron control nightly to keep it up-to-date. I do this on > FreeBSD (my primary dev and server platform) as well as all > linux instances in my environment. It makes things a lot simpler. > How do you manage dependency tracking errors? The last time I've installed it the way you do was on Slackware and since it doesn't do any dependency tracking there were no problems (as long as the binaries were in PATH). I can imagine ports and pkg tools on FreeBSD complaining about missing TeX packages, and AFAIK Debian based Linux distributions will certainly complain (I think there is a workaround, but it involves messing with dpkg). ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Commercial Licensing
On 10/08/13 03:41, Someth San wrote: > Hello, > > I'm interested in installing FreeBSD into a small form factor PC for > commercial use and was wondering whether there is a EULA in place for that > purpose. I would like to avoid the open source requirement of disclosing my > codes to a public community. > > If you can provide some information/direction in this regard, I would > greatly appreciate it. > As others have said, you can do what you want to do with FreeBSD licenced code. The third party components in the base system that are under different licences are in /usr/src/contrib and /usr/src/gnu, so look there for potential problems. And as Daniel has said, if you're not going to distribute the binaries even the GPL code isn't a problem. In any case, you should consult a lawyer specializing in *software* copyright, not just any copyright lawyer because depending on what you want to do, GPL can be very complicated. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
