Re: mail archive on freebsd.org

[Mark Linimon]

We were in the middle of a hardware upgrade.  Things should be restored
now.

mcl
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Re: propose: all arch move into a separate dir

[Mark Linimon]

There are two chief problems with a large-scale reorg of our src tree:

 - There are many companies who use FreeBSD as part of their business.
   In the case of ISPs or companies who use FreeBSD as a base of their
   products, this would make it much harder for them to synchronize
   their local changes with the master repository as changes occur.

 - We have a large number of existing Problem Reports containing patches
   against our src tree.  These patches would be in the same situation.

These are the reasons we've avoided doing so in the past, no matter how
much 'cleaner' things might wind up being.

mcl
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Re: propose: all arch move into a separate dir

[Mark Linimon]

On 5 Mar 2010, at 09:56, Alex Keda wrote:
> thus, it is not 'Free', this managed by 'consumers like Isilon, NetApp,
> Juniper, and many others'?

It isn't managed by them whatsoever.

FreeBSD is a cooperative anarchy, driven by working code and rough consensus.
That's what controls the checkins.

However, FreeBSD also exists as part of a larger community.  If there's
no compelling reason to make the work of some of those in that community
more difficult, why should we do so?

Let's take a look at the current data in GNATS:

  $ showwithtag patch | wc -l
  1880

To reiterate, that's nearly two thousand PRs with patches.  (I don't have
statistics for how many of those relate to arch-specific areas of the
codebase, however.)

Finally, IMVHO, if you want an operating system where philosophical purity
overrides all practical concerns, you're going to be better off with
something such as OpenBSD or Debian.

mcl
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Re: HEADS UP: COMPAT_IA32 renamed COMPAT_FREEBSD32

[Mark Linimon]

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 09:22:55AM -0800, David O'Brien wrote:
> Yes it is.  Where was it discussed first?  I do not see anything in my
> freebsd-arch or freebsd-current archive; or any other FreeBSD list.

http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/mid.cgi?4B971CA3.9090301

crossposted on amd64@, ia64@, emulat...@.

mcl
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Re: Complete ports thaw

[Mark Linimon]

It probably bears repeating that the tree will be unstable for the next
few days while a number of large commits hit the tree.  These were held
off during the release process to make life easier in case portmgr had
to do tag-slips.

Image processing libraries, xorg, kde, and gnome are scheduled to be
updated, among others.

mcl
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Re: HEADSUP: zlib updated [svn commit: r205471 - in head: . lib/libz lib/libz/contrib lib/libz/doc sys/sys]

[Mark Linimon]

On Thu, Apr 01, 2010 at 03:30:47PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote:
> And yes, I *will* keep harping on this until people Get It.

You're harping at the wrong people.  Complain to the application authors,
not to the poor slobs trying to maintain the ports collection.

There's a lot of crap code out there on the internet.  If we want to
insist that all the application authors both a) write good code and that
b) understands how FreeBSD does things, well, we can do that, but it's
not going to have much effect.

Probably 75%+ of the application authors neither know nor care that
their code is being run on anything other than Linux.  In extreme
cases we've enountered authors who outright refuse to accept our
patches, either due to philosophical disagreement or just due to the 
xtra hassle.

I'd just be happy if we could keep what we have working, without
"surprise" regressions.  I'm not going to get in the business of trying
to preach to the application authors.  Feel free.

mcl
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Re: ports and PBIs

[Mark Linimon]

not to be a troll but ...

... for those that want the ease-of-use of PBIs, why not just use PC-BSD
in the first place?  They seem to have their own QA process in place in
terms of keeping the various large applications at a sane level.

Kernel development could (just like it is on the Macs) be done in some
kind of virtualization context.

My own experience with helping people who try to run FreeBSD-CURRENT with
an up-to-date ports tree is that there are far too many moving parts for
it to be dependable.  (For more on how often ports get broken by changes
in -CURRENT, see http://wiki.freebsd.org/PortsBrokenOnCurrent.  Note that
that list is not complete.)

mcl
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Re: fpsetmask on sparc64

[Mark Linimon]

> Whereas excuses as to why things are the way they are, and
> people should just put up with it, DO help?

Well, I don't know about that, but I know that this response does
not, in and of itself, help do anthing -- except to raise the room
temperature.

Anyway, since we now seem to have left any technical content
behind, can this be taken to -chat, offline email, or, better yet,
/dev/null?  Thank you.

Mark Linimon




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State of the Union Report (backout request department)

[Mark Linimon]

(This is just a view from the sidelines; I generally do ports hacking
and not kernel hacking, and thus my views might not carry much
weight, but here goes anyways).

One of the more interesting features of the FreeBSD development
model seems to me to be the ability for people to request controversial
CVS commits to be backed out pending further technical discussion.
IMHO this seems like a wise (albeit nonintuitive) plan to avoid
meta-discussions about what should and should not have been
committed by whom and reviewed by whom (and so on and so forth).

But recently (especially since the 5.0 release) the backout request
mechanism seems to have fallen on hard times.  Without too much
difficulty, I was able to find 5 separate backout requests in this
year's archive of cvs-all alone which were not quickly honored.
(I'm not counting an ignored request for which the underlying
change was apparently security-related).  I'm not sure, but there
may have been others, possibly on freebsd-current.

The point I'm trying to make by posting this is not to take sides with
anyone, assign blame or credit, or anything like that.  I personally
came up in the old Usenet days, and thus have already gone down
that same road so many times that I would hope I've earned a lifetime 
"Get-Out-Of-Flames-Free" card for that reason alone (never mind
various mailing lists and other places controversy loves to incubate )

But if we've got that model, it seems to me we ought to honor it, even
if (especially if?) we think the request is frivolous or ill-intentioned.
After all, if the backout request itself wasn't controversial, it would
probably imply the original change wasn't controversial, and thus
who would care to ask to back it out in the first place?

I'm just asking folks to think about this so that the whole FreeBSD
project can move forward and ideas can rise and fall on their
technical merits, because frankly that's where the strength of
FreeBSD lies -- in its technical merits.

Mark Linimon


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[no subject]

[Mark Linimon]

> On the other hand, there's no compelling reason to dike it out,
> if it can be made to work.

work == "not just compiled, but QAed against known-working implementations
and correctly documented".

Have fun.  Looking forward to the patches and logs.

mcl



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Re: Removal of netns - politically correct version

[Mark Linimon]

On Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Terry Lambert wrote:
> Tell you what, I'll fix these and post a patch.  Will that make you
> guys happy?

Yes, as will anything else that cuts down on the metadiscussions and
increases the quality of the codebase.

mcl



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Re: ZFS will gone,FreeBSD will import btrfs?

[Mark Linimon]

On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 12:21:07PM +0800, lhmwzy wrote:
> opensolaris is gone

It appears there will be a fork, but that's not particularly crucial
to FreeBSD.

> ZFS also gone.

We're not going to drop ZFS because Oracle's plans are unclear.  It
remains to be seen how much other community support there is behind ZFS.

> Will FreeBSD import btrfs or other similar file system?

>From my observation, it takes about 2 years from the initial work on a
new filesystem until it's relatively stable, so I don't know why we would
suddenly decide to go that direction.

mcl
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Re: utmpx

[Mark Linimon]

On Fri, Nov 05, 2010 at 01:09:06PM +0100, Ed Schouten wrote:
> It should be noted that that list is a bit pessimistic, since various
> ports have been fixed in the mean time.

Updates welcomed :-)

mcl
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Re: Fixing -pthreads (Re: ports and -current)

[Mark Linimon]

IMHO if the ports tree is unfrozen for the -pthreads fixes,
the 4.9 release schedule will drift days if not weeks.

While it's not as apparent as the kernel build issues,
there are significant QA issues that go into the ports
system.  That's why the freeze is in place, to allow
the QA process to run its course.

Executive summary: POLA was violated for all the ports maintainers
who do not keep up with kernel intricacies.  Dismissing their
distress at this doesn't really help the project move along.

mcl

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Re: Fixing -pthreads (Re: ports and -current)

[Mark Linimon]

> I don't think committing fixes for -current breakages should cause
> problems for 4.9-RELEASE (especially with the caveat that they be
> compile tested on -stable).

It takes several days to do the compile QA.  That's assuming
that no actual users are allowed to have time to test the changes
before the release is cut.

IMHO, what you think just doesn't reflect the actual reality
involved.  We are just going to have to disagree on this.

You should really look at the bento logs and get an understanding
of the continual QA that is done on the _over_ 9000 ports (many
of which have _no_ maintainer signed up) before you make assumptions
that there shouldn't be significant problems with what you propose.

mcl


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Re: HEADS UP: /bin and /sbin are now dynamically linked

[Mark Linimon]

> Is this where we start swapping stories about "when I was a young 
> sysadmin, we didn't need no stinkin vi.  We used ed and liked it!".  :-)

No, this is where we, out of respect for the mbox size of our fellow
readers of -current, take this thread to -chat.

Please.

mcl


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Re: 5.2-BETA and related ports issues

[Mark Linimon]

On Sat, 29 Nov 2003, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote:
>
> Do you actually review ports Makefiles?

You _are_ kidding here, right?

Yes, the ports team does read over the ports Makefile.  Yes, the
bento cluster attempts to find all the problems that can be found
by automated processes.  Yes, my own code attempts to lint
inconsistencies in the ports collection.  Yes, other automated
scripts attempt to continually build /usr/ports/INDEX looking
for inconsistencies, and maintainers whose email address bounces,
and maintainers who might not have seen PRs about their ports
(maintainers who are not committers, in this case).  Yes,Bill
Fenner's script attempts to find all unfetchable ports.

I've seen other scripts that attempt to portlint the entire ports
hierarchy but I don't know if they run periodically.  They probably
ought to.

There are currently, as of this moment, 9722 ports in the tree.
It's not humanly possible to read over every line of every single
Makefile plus every single pkg-plist and grok them all.  The ports
folks rely on many eyes for help with this, just as with every
other line of code in FreeBSD.

There are certainly a lot of bugs in the ports tree.  If people
use send-pr for its intended purpose, specific bugs are more likely
to get fixed than by casual discussions on mailing lists.

mcl


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Re: [TESTING]: ClangBSD branch needs testing before the import to HEAD

[Mark Linimon]

I'm just catching up with this thread, so apologies if this has already
been pointed out elsewhere.

One of the things that has been discussed w/rt compilers for a while
(not just at the devsummit) was bending our minds around separating the
concept of "base system compiler" from "default ports compiler".  In
-stable branches, we must and shall not do large compiler updates.  But
ports probably need a more recent compiler (of whatever flavor) just to
keep as many of them building as possible.  (As upstream authors switch
to newer compilers, their ports often don't build on whatever is in our
base).

Despite my enthusiasm for the future of llvm, the reality is that even
in the medium-term there are so many ports with hardwired assumptions
that they are running on gcc (not to mention on linux on i386) that it
will never be possible to fix them all.  The current paradigm is that
as ports stop building with both base gcc, unless they are switched to
depending on a newer gcc from ports, they'll be marked 'broken' and go
through the deprecation cycle.

Further, I remind people that "compile" and "run" and "run equally as
well through all code-paths" are three completely separate levels of
effort, possibly having an order of magnitude more work between each.
We're looking at a multi-year process here, and not every single port is
going to survive.  But again -- not all of them currently do, anwyays.

mcl
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Re: [TESTING]: ClangBSD branch needs testing before the import to HEAD

[Mark Linimon]

On Tue, Jun 01, 2010 at 12:18:41PM +0200, Alban Hertroys wrote:
> Compiler bugs in gcc are probably just as hard to find as compiler bugs
> in clang

There are two types of compiler bug: a) bug that produces bad code; b)
bug that makes the compiler crash.

The latter number seems kind of low right now, but that's probably
because some of them are now obscured by BROKEN tags:

http://portsmon.freebsd.org/portsconcordanceforbuilderror.py?build_error=gcc_bug

For comparison, bitrot that is probably due to older ports not keeping
up with compiler changes is at:

http://portsmon.freebsd.org/portsconcordanceforbuilderror.py?build_error=gcc4_error

I don't have any statistic for "produces bad code".

mcl
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Re: [TESTING]: ClangBSD branch needs testing before the import to HEAD

[Mark Linimon]

On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 01:22:05PM +0100, Bruce Cran wrote:
> From previous messages I don't think sparc64 is currently supported by
> clang very well, if at all, so I think we'll still need gcc in the base
> system for some time.

I'll put on my "tier-2 package builder hat" for a moment.

IMHO it helps FreeBSD's robustness to have our other architectures.  In
particular, fixing bugs in sparc64 may be helping us fix bugs that would
affect arm/mips/powerpc, which are key for our embedded userbase.

Perhaps I'm just invested in this from having spent time on sparc64 ...

But a counter-argument is that if the two archs that llvm currently does
not support well (sparc64 and ia64) start holding back major progress on
amd64/i386, then we should give the most weight to what 90%+ of our
userbase is on, and act accordingly.  Hopefully that just means "keep
gcc as the default for our tier-2 archs."

I've been finding it intellectually interesting to work on these, but
really, they shouldn't be allowed to hold up the parade.

Final note: there is indeed active kernel work on sparc64, ia64, and
powerpc, so things are not stalled.

mcl
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Re: [TESTING]: ClangBSD branch needs testing before the import to HEAD

[Mark Linimon]

On Fri, Jun 04, 2010 at 08:13:55AM +, b. f. wrote:
> How did you obtain "gcc4-errors"?

bzgrep -q "See http://gcc.gnu.org/bugs.html> for instructions."  Part
of ports/Tools/portbuild/scripts/processonelog .

mcl
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Re: RFC: etcupdate tool in base?

[Mark Linimon]

On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 05:28:01PM -0700, Julian Elischer wrote:
> code in the base tree gets fixed by people making sweeping changes
> but things from ports often do not.

By 'sweeping changes', I take it you mean to src?

And if by 'things from ports', I take you mean that ports break on
-current all the time, due to changes in src?

mcl
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Re: Anyone working on fsck?

[Mark Linimon]

> I'll stop as soon as KSE is finished, fair ?

I'm very disappointed in this response.  Poul, everything else I've read
from you to date has been reasonable except for this posting.

I would think that you, yourself, should be especially sensitive to
criticism of unfinished projects.  Things such as KSE, SMP, and GEOM
itself are each huge projects that require a great deal of perserverance
over a long period of time to reach a state where in not just the majority
of cases, but even in all the hard-to-get-to edge cases, the bugs
and gotchas are put to rest.  Each just affects too many areas of
the system, and too many users; and too many changes in various
areas of the system are interrelated.  The QA involved is difficult
enough in and of its own without personal dissention.

Unlike the ports (where I generally work), I well understand that it
is often difficult to work on kernel problems in isolation from work on
other problems.  Large undertakings such as these are areas where
the "many eyes" development paradigm is stressed to its maximum.
These are the areas where cooperation and collegiality are the most
needed to overcome the significant intrinsic technical hurdles.

And this is exactly the area where I believe you, in the above posting,
have let the project down.

But it's your personal reputation, not mine, that is at stake here.
If this is the way you wish to have yourself represented in public,
it's not my problem, but your own.

I just wish you had reached for the delete key before sending
this post.

Mark Linimon


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Re: GDB - do we dare?

[Mark Linimon]

> FSF GDB releases use a libbfd that's basically a
> snapshot taken at the point where the release branch was cut.

Hmm, seems like a motivation for a libbfd port that tracks the
snapshot, for this very reason.

mcl

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Re: drm / drm2 removal in 12

[Mark Linimon]

On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 07:07:24AM +0800, blubee blubeeme wrote:
> Are these guys insane and please avoid the nonsense about you're doing this
> in your spare time.

Let us know how whatever OS you wind up using instead works for you.
I suggest you look for one that will put up with your constant harangues.

There are very few people on the mailing lists as nasty and rude as
yourself.  It is tiresome, demotivating, and childish.  Please go elsewhere.

mcl
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Re: drm / drm2 removal in 12

[Mark Linimon]

On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 07:22:06PM -0700, Randy Bush wrote:
> plonk

Indeed.  I encourage everyone else to do the same.

I'm far too old for proof-by-repetition.

mcl
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Re: r343843 /usr/ports/ make install error: unable to create target: 'No available targets are compatible with this triple.'

[Mark Linimon]

On Fri, Feb 08, 2019 at 12:18:33PM +, Graham Perrin wrote:
> I still wonder whether these problems arose, somehow, from:
> 
> 235215 – Bump LLVM_DEFAULT to 80
> 

AFAIK that's still being tested (not committed yet).

mcl
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Re: What is evdev and autoloading?

[Mark Linimon]

On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 08:50:27AM -0800, Rodney W. Grimes wrote:
> I think one serious problem here is the summary dismissal of things
> simply on the "5 year old" basis.

IIUC the graphics changes are being forced upon FreeBSD by external
projects (mainly Linux-based) that are making huge architectural changes
that rely more and more on features from newer hardware.

If our upstreams aren't willing to do the work to keep from violating
POLA on older hardware, IMHO it's an awful lot to ask of our already
thinly stretched graphics volunteers to provide it in their stead.

w/rt graphics, we are at far more danger of being left further and
further behind on modern hardware than we are at risk of losing users
on older hardware here.

Again all IMHO.

disclaimer: I don't use any fancy graphics stuff, so (as the old folks
say around here) "I have no dog in this hunt".

mcl
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Re: What is evdev and autoloading?

[Mark Linimon]

On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 06:25:32AM -0800, Rodney W. Grimes wrote:
> We are certainly driving users away by our operation model

If you want to help take up more support duties -- especially for aging
hardware -- I doubt anyone would stop you.  There is plenty of work to
take up; just check Bugzilla.

> This is not some leap forward for anyone

Nonsense.

> and definitely a slight step backwards for some, many, who knows,
> I put it in the 1000s of users.

Utter nonsense.  Right now we see the the following case: "latest
graphics fail to work on i386 laptops".  I fail to believe that is
more than a handful of users.

mcl
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Re: sys/modules/sdio broken in .svn_revision 348842 'opt_cam.h' not found

[Mark Linimon]

On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 11:41:03AM +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> svn_revision 348842
[ ...]
> /usr/src/sys/modules/sdio/../../dev/sdio/sdiob.c:68:10: fatal error: 
>   'opt_cam.h' file not found
> #include "opt_cam.h"
>  ^~~
> 1 error generated.

This is extremely unlikely to be r348842.  I would investigate r349025
instead.  (Committer Cc:ed.)

mcl
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Re: AMD Secure Encrypted Virtualization - FreeBSD Status?

[Mark Linimon]

On Sat, Oct 05, 2019 at 01:09:50PM +0300, Greg V wrote:
> please keep in mind that the wiki is, as usual, very outdated.

I'd be happy to give assistance/advice to get the page updated.

mcl
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Re: Build failed in Jenkins: Build-UFS-image #599

[Mark Linimon]

On Sat, Dec 20, 2014 at 01:43:50PM -0800, Garrett Cooper wrote:
> One way to deal with this issue is to svn up a source tree, then rsync

rsync?  ITYM zfs clone :-)

mcl
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Re: HP 2B19WM PCI-E SD Reader

[Mark Linimon]

On Wed, Feb 04, 2015 at 08:21:44AM -0800, Adrian Chadd wrote:
> ... god, people go through a lot of work to not have to write a wifi driver. 
> :)

we're just concerned about you...

...r sanity.

mcl
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Re: Time to be real

[Mark Linimon]

Thank you for your troll.

For your convenience, we will do our best not to reply to you any
further, to waste either your time, or valuable electrons.

mcl
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Re: [CFT] packaging the base system with pkg(8)

[Mark Linimon]

On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 05:37:00AM +0300, dan_partelly wrote:
> Year after year you hear about new GsoC projects, then nothing. I find
> it hard to believe that none of those actually produced any useful code.

The goal of GSoC is to introduce new people to FreeBSD more than it is
to produce committable code.

It's designed as a learning experience.

Sometimes, it has the pleasant property of producing code that can be
committed without rework, but not that often.

mcl
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Re: FreeBSD-11.0-BETA1-amd64-disc1.iso is too big for my 700MB CD-r

[Mark Linimon]

On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 04:09:10PM +0930, Shane Ambler wrote:
> +1 on dropping CD images.

I have 24U of things that don't have DVD players, including some tier-2
machines for which no upgrade is available.

mcl
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Re: [RFC] remove GNU rcs from FreeBSD 12

[Mark Linimon]

On Thu, Nov 03, 2016 at 10:17:23AM +0800, Julian Elischer wrote:
> why should we remove it?

IIUC the plan for several years has been to remove all GPLed software
from base.

But in any case the conversation is moot.  It was removed from head
on 20161015 by bapt:

  https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base?view=revision&revision=307351

UPDATING contains notes about how to install it on your system.

mcl
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Re: [RFC] remove GNU rcs from FreeBSD 12

[Mark Linimon]

On Sun, Nov 06, 2016 at 12:09:30PM +0100, Eivind Nicolay Evensen wrote:
> I also thought that perl was a good example of another piece of software
> that once was provided and no longer is.

Yes, that's true, but somewhat different.

perl was removed because keeping it became incompatible with the concept
of the -stable branches.  perl development was simply moving faster than
FreeBSD major releases, leading to FreeBSD having to keep maintaining an
obsolete piece of software far past the time upstream had dropped support
for it.

Of course this is a problem with any software that FreeBSD imports, but
IIUC this may have been the most painful case.  (I was just starting to
use FreeBSD at the time, so was really just an observer.)

mcl
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Re: xpt related hang on sparc64

[Mark Linimon]

On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 11:23:13PM -0700, Alan Somers wrote:
> That error message can mean many different things.  You need to boot
> in verbose mode to get a better idea.

As a test I created a netbootable image from -current the other day.
All I had available to test was an X1 which booted fine.  (It was
just lying around anyway.)

I can try one of the v210s or v215s if you continue to have trouble.

mcl
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Re: HEADSUP: after r313194 on freebsd-current, lang/gcc ports require a rebuild

[Mark Linimon]

On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 11:24:27PM +0100, Ed Schouten wrote:
> 2017-02-28 21:00 GMT+01:00 Konstantin Belousov :
> > Ideally, ports should stop shipping mangled system includes, or even better,
> > gcc stop doing fixincludes.
> 
> Amen.

Please let me know the magic wand you folks want us to wave to fix up all the
bad usages in ports.

We are barely keeping our heads above water as it is.

mcl
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Re: How many versions of clang/llvm are currently required to maintain a system

[Mark Linimon]

Please see https://wiki.freebsd.org/ObsoleteLLVMVersions .

mcl
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Re: How many versions of clang/llvm are currently required to maintain a system

[Mark Linimon]

On Mon, Mar 06, 2017 at 03:00:23PM +, r...@gid.co.uk wrote:
> Let me rephrase that: the link http://purelang.bitbucket.org/
> quoted on https://wiki.freebsd.org/ObsoleteLLVMVersions doesn’t work,

That's the URL in lang/pure/Makefile.

> should be https://bitbucket.org/purelang/

Hmm.  I looked and it seems like https://purelang.bitbucket.io/ is
a better choice?  What do you think?

mcl
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Re: lang/gcc6-aux for head beyond __nonnull related issues: vm_ooffset_t and vm_pindex_t related changes (and more)

[Mark Linimon]

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 08:27:29PM -0700, Mark Millard wrote:
> I've seen material quoted from a exp-run that reported
> that about 54(?) ports were then blocked by lang/gcc6-aux
> not building.

Although the first is an older run (the last complete run IIUC), there
were 50 and 51 respectively as of:

http://thunderx1.nyi.freebsd.org/build.html?mastername=110arm64-default&build=423029
http://beefy8.nyi.freebsd.org/build.html?mastername=head-armv6-default&build=p437390_s316341

I think you're fairly deep into unexplored territory here.

mcl
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ports recently marked broken on -current

[Mark Linimon]

So during my pass over recent powerpc64 package errorlogs, I found
a few ports that were actually broken across all archs on -current,
and made those commits.

I may not have enough cycles to investigate all these down by myself,
so I'm asking for help.  Does anyone recognize any of these failure
modes, and if so, can recommend a fix?

I've grouped them together based on my analysis, which may not be
correct.  Note: error messages from gcc and clang are intermixed.

Thanks.

mcl

benchmarks/dbs  tcp_debug.h: field has incomplete type 'struct tcpcb'
security/revealrk   revealrk.c: 'struct xtcpcb' has no member named 
'xt_socket'
security/pidentdk_freebsd2.c: storage size of 'pcbp' isn't known

japanese/nethack34  stdlib.h: conflicting types for 'srandom'

net-mgmt/netdatafreebsd_sysctl.c: storage size of 'vmmeter_data' isn't 
known
sysutils/asmem  read_mem.c: invalid use of undefined type 'struct 
vmmeter'

net/lft lft_types.h: pcap-int.h: No such file or directory
security/dsniff pcaputil.c: '/usr/include/pcap-int.h' file not found
sysutils/pftop  sf-gencode.h: pcap-int.h: No such file or directory

sysutils/scprotect  scprotect.c: 'sysctl__' undeclared (first use in this 
function)

www/cherokeeunable to detect data struct is used by crypt_r
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Re: 9.0 beta2 & the new bsdinstaller

[Mark Linimon]

> Wiki, gnats, scrap of paper on someones desk, etc?

I've put a link to the few existing PRs in GNATS onto the wiki page.

mcl
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Re: Problem with pkg_add

[Mark Linimon]

On Fri, Dec 09, 2011 at 09:16:13AM -0500, Derek Tattersall wrote:
> After installing 9.0-RC2 or RC3, pkg_add -r fails in trying to access
> ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/ports/amd64/package-9-current as the
> terminal directory is acually packages-9-stable.  It is a one line
> change in the source for pkg_add.

For the moment, I've provided compatibility symlinks on ftp-master.
Expect it to propogate shortly.

mcl
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Re: amd64 packages

[Mark Linimon]

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 10:46:08PM +0400, siur wrote:
> why there is still no packages for 10-current? Did I miss something?

We're trying to debug multiple package building problems, and currently
using i386-10 for that.  Until we get farther along with that process,
we aren't doing amd64-10 yet.

mcl
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status of ports and clang

[Mark Linimon]

I have recently been able to get the new build cluster on pointyhat-west
set up to run full builds of ports with clang on amd64-9.  I have documented
the latest results on the wiki:

  http://wiki.freebsd.org/PortsAndClang

If you are interested in working on ports being built via clang, this
is your place to start.

Please also note that now that we have up-to-date builds going, it is
not as useful to us to report individual clang build failures.  Patches
to fix problems are, of course, highly welcome.

mcl
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FreeBSD funding [was: Re: Benchmark (Phoronix): FreeBSD 9.0-RC2 vs. Oracle Linux 6.1] Server

[Mark Linimon]

I have slightly reordered your email in my reply, in order to put the
most important item last.

On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 12:01:33PM +0100, O. Hartmann wrote:
> I'm still with the system, although I desperately need scientific grade
> compilers or GPGPU support.

Your use-case, while valid, is clearly not the use-case that most of
the committers working on FreeBSD face.  But see below.

> And, I dare to put some critics herein! Since I see that FreeBSD is
> "free", why not trying to make it better and more towards perfect?

Everyone wants the product to improve.  The question is, what is
achievable with the current committers?  That's where you see the
pushback and frustration from the current committers.

> Look at FreeBSD and the problem of how well sysctls and their
> working are documented. It needs to be fixed.

There's no argument that some of the FreeBSD documentation is stale.
We do, however, have one committer (eadler@) who has been trying to
move the sysctl documentation forwards.

Participation from the wider community is key.  Although sending PRs
does not guarantee things will get fixed, it's currently the best way
that we have.

> Well, as far as I know, the FreeBSD project is funding people doing a
> certain work! So, the implied opposite, FreeBSD is developed "free"
> isn't true.

So here's the key point of your email IMHO, and the key misunderstanding.

First, let me nit-pick the legalities.  The FreeBSD Foundation
(http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/) is a US non-profit that does fund
some activities, and that's what I'll talk about here.  "The FreeBSD
Project" is the collective term for "all of the committers and developers"
and is not an "entity" for US legal purposes.

Second, the disclaimers: I am not a member of the FreeBSD Foundation
Board of Directors, so I am not speaking for them.  I have also directly
benefited from Foundation funding (both travel, and via equipment they
bought for portmgr), so am hardly unbiased.

Now on to the gist of that matter.

As a US non-profit, the Foundation is required to post its financial
information to the public, and it does on its website:

  http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/documents/Budget2011.pdf

You'll see here that the total budget for 2011 is $400k (USD).

This, frankly, is miniscule.

The largest line item for 2011 is $125k for project funding, which has
gone towards 9 different projects (see
http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/activities.shtml).  For comparison,
keep in mind that a commercial developers' salary in the US is upwards
of $100k/yr.

Even with this being a substantial increase from 2010's $83k, these
numbers are tiny comared to "real-world" budgets.

The projects that were sponsored were primarily networking-related, but
also the GEM/KMS/DRI project, jails, the libc++ replacement, and clocks.
I've listed those in the order that I think the most consumers of FreeBSD
will be affected by.  Note the absence of any work towards performance,
schedulers, compilers, or numerical analysis.  With a $125k budget, you're
simply not going to see those on the list.

The other notable line items are: hardware purchases (explicit disclaimer:
portmgr has been one of the primary beneficiaries); conference sponsorship;
conference travel; and salary for one employee to try to help coordinate all
the above.  Legal fees (things involving trademarking and licensing issues)
takes up most of the remaining.

I can't figure out the Linux Foundation's budget from their website, but I
can tell immediately that their budget is a great many times more than $400k.

Summary: on a fraction of the budget that Linux has available, we _nearly
keep up_.  I can't imagine what we could do with comparable funding.

So, for everyone who thinks we are being "well funded", here's your reality
check.

And please note that the Foundation is in its year-end fund drive, too.

Thanks for listening.

mcl
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Re: Removal of sysinstall from HEAD and lack of a post-install configuration tool

[Mark Linimon]

On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 10:23:58AM -0800, Pedro Giffuni wrote:
> How am I supposed to install prebuilt packages (and the myriad of
> dependencies) from now on?

I strongly recommend using portmaster.  The manpage is very dense but
to start with, use something like the following (I'm just picking one
port at random, pkg_cutleaves, to install):

  portmaster -PP ports-mgmt/pkg_cutleaves

mcl
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Re: Benchmark (Phoronix): FreeBSD 9.0-RC2 vs. Oracle Linux 6.1 Server

[Mark Linimon]

On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 04:04:31PM +0100, O. Hartmann wrote:
> There maybe serious reasons having the Linuxulator, i do not know. But
> if not, why spending rare developer resources on that?

This is a classical misunderstanding of the FreeBSD development model.

There is no "staff" standing around waiting for assignments, as with
a commercial company.  When committers join the project, they usually
(almost always) already have a long list of things that they want to
work on.  And then they go work on them.

Neither the core team, nor the FreeBSD Foundation, "direct" the project
and its course of development.  Some of the members of each do post
emails, or stand up in front of conferences, and say "you know, I think
it would be really neat if someone did xyz."  Sometimes this leads to
results, sometimes not.

As for the companies that have their own FreeBSD-derived products,
often their goals are tightly focused, e.g. "improve the number of
packets we can pass" or "support our specialized hardware".  Some,
but not all, of the resultant work makes it back into FreeBSD.  We
get to say "it would be really neat if ..."; and, in addition, point
to possible future minimization of merging and duplication of effort
as a way to save costs long-term.

But with these exceptions, development is primarily driven from the
bottom-up (individual committers find something they are interested in
working on, and then go work on it), and not the top-down as in "real"
companies.  This is the way the overwhelming majority (90+%?) of the
work on FreeBSD gets done.

So, there's no one "assigned" the tasks of closing PRs, nor working on
coordinating code with the other BSDs, nor working on the Linuxolator,
nor even supporting high-performance computing.

It's a cooperative anarchy, not a hierarchy.

mcl
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Re: stable/9 still looking for packages at 9-current

[Mark Linimon]

On Sun, Jan 08, 2012 at 07:26:47PM -0500, Eitan Adler wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 7:22 PM, Arnaud Lacombe  wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 5:12 PM, Peter  wrote:
> >> Hello,
> >>  Installed 9-RELEASE amd64, [...]
> > Has 9.0 been released ?

9.0 will, and only will, be released when an announcement is made on
freebsd-annou...@freebsd.org, containing such things as verified
checksums.

Any information sent before that happens is not canonical.

mcl
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Re: stable/9 still looking for packages at 9-current

[Mark Linimon]

> On 9. Jan 2012, at 01:04 , Arnaud Lacombe wrote:
> So you are saying that FreeBSD is currently providing on
> ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub images tagged as being "9.0 RELEASE" (with
> checksum provided), in a `releases' directory, which are not actually
> release images per-se ?

Excellent!  You've shown the ability to understand flat, declarative,
sentences that have no qualifying phrases.

9.0 will be *released* when and only when the official, signed, email
goes out.  Everything up until that point is preparation.

mcl
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Re: stable/9 still looking for packages at 9-current

[Mark Linimon]

> On 9 January 2012 18:16, Arnaud Lacombe  wrote:
>> Excellent!  You've shown the ability to understand flat, declarative,
>> sentences that have no qualifying phrases.
>>
> FWIW, this was more a sarcastic sentence

I am being sarcastic because I am frustrated.

I am frustrated because I am having to repeat myself.

> pointing out that FreeBSD is currently officially distributing
> non-released build in a directory which might leads users to consider
> this is the official release, thus misleading them.

I pointed out no such thing.

I am not misleading anyone, nor is the Project.  You are.

It is not "officially distributing".  It won't be "officially distributed"
until, and only until, the signed email goes out.  This is the third email
in a row where I have made this flat, factual, statement.

Until that time, the contents of various websites is irrelevant.

That mail will not go out until (among other things):

 - the Release Engineering team determines there are no last-minute
   gotchas,

 - all the bits are on all the mirrors, so that users will not go to
   their local mirror, find it not there yet, then pound on the master,
   bringing it to a crawl,

 - the Release Notes are in their final form,

 - a news announcement is in its final form,

and other things that I, not being on re@, am probably not aware of.

These things are the *preparation* steps.  They all have to be in
place to make sure that everything is ready for when the mass downloads
begin.  This is to prevent people who are installing the release from
having a bad experience, e.g., with missing documentation.

> > Do you expect me to consult freebsd-announce@, verify the signature
> > of the announce, the hash of the ISOs, etc. to consider that 9.0 has
> > been released ?

That is exactly what I expect.  In fact, I insist on it.  And the reason
I insist on it is because this is the documented procedure, and has been
for at least 14 releases in the last 6 years, and most likely many before
I became active.

> > No, I see 9.0 ISOs in a `releases' directory, I assume it has been
> > released, whatever your spreading process is.

You assumed so, posted, were told it was not correct, and cannot seem
to accept that answer.  I'm sorry, but it's the correct answer, and all
the argumentation in the world will not change that answer.

> > Btw, none of the CHECKSUMS files are signed on the FTP.

Perhaps that's part of the preparatory steps.

mcl
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Re: make: don't know how to make add-plist-buildinfo. Stop

[Mark Linimon]

It was a temporary disruption that I caused.  It should be fixed now.

mcl
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Re: Clang as default compiler November 4th

[Mark Linimon]

On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 10:07:04AM +0100, David Chisnall wrote:
> There is some logic in the clang driver already for knowing when it is
> invoked as gcc.  I'd be quite tempted to make gcc a symlink to clang
> and make clang default to gnu89 when invoked in that way.

And how then does a port say "I don't compile with clang no matter how
it is invoked"?

mcl
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Re: Clang as default compiler November 4th

[Mark Linimon]

On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 11:27:50AM +0200, Lars Engels wrote:
> At the moment the ports maintainers don't give much about if their ports
> build with CLANG or not because they're not forced to.

I think this is a mis-representation.

Adding the requirement "your ports must work on clang" is adding an
ex-post-facto requirement.  This creates the following matrix of what
we are implicitly asking maintainers to do:

(FreeBSD 7|8|9|10) * (amd64|arm|i386|powerpc|sparc64) * (base gcc|base clang)

It is completely insane to expect anyone to be able to test in all of those
environments, or even a tiny subset of them.  This isn't what most people
sign up for when they sign up to maintain ports.

> Those who don't run CURRENT won't notice, but those who do will have to
> get their butts up and fix the ports

I think it's foolish to assume that maintainres don't have their butts in
gear as it is.  Please note, we have nearly 1300 PRs, hundreds of ports with
build errors and/or PRs, and hundreds that fail on -current only.  I try to
advertise all these things the best I know how.  Adding the hundreds that
fail on -clang only and then blaming the maintainers is simply going to be
counter-productive.

mcl
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Re: Clang as default compiler November 4th

[Mark Linimon]

On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 03:03:43PM +0200, Lars Engels wrote:
> two of the ports I maintain don't build with CLANG, yet. I
> just checked that on the wiki page [1].

To repeat myself, the ports I've listed on that page are the "big
problems".  People need to look at the errorlogs URLs up at the
top to see the complete list.

mcl
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Re: Clang as default compiler November 4th

[Mark Linimon]

On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 08:21:31AM +0200, Pietro Cerutti wrote:
> On 2012-Sep-11, 23:29, Doug Barton wrote:
> > What we need to do is what I and others have been asking to do for
> > years. We need to designate a modern version of gcc (no less than 4.6)
> > as the official default ports compiler, and rework whatever is needed to
> > support this. Fortunately, that goal is much more easily achieved than
> > fixing ports to build and run with clang. (It's harder than it sounds
> > because there are certain key libs that define some paths depending on
> > what compiler they were built with, but still easier than dealing with
> > clang in the short term.)
> 
> I like the idea very much. My only concern is that gcc is heavy to
> build.

Gerald has been advocating this for a while as well.  In fact, he's
just made a commit that makes the lang/gcc42 compiler much easier to
bootstrap itself.

There's a set of interlocking changes that we need to make to the
infrastructure to modernize our compiler choices.  I've been talking
to Gerald about some of the aspects of it and hope to have something
to propose fairly soon.

But IMHO it's a little bit trickier than it appears at first glance.

mcl
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[HEADSUP] FYI: patch to ports that do not build with clang has been committed

[Mark Linimon]

The commit mail hasn't gone through yet, so I guess I need to post this
first and reference the commit mail later.

Sometime in the near future, the default CC on -current will be switched
to clang.  The patch I have committed is a workaround -- an interim measure --
to get ready for this transition.

I have made changes to ports/Mk/bsd.gcc.mk that allow the addition of
"USE_GCC=any" to a port's Makefile, and then committed that change to
various ports.  In most (but not all!) cases this will tell the port
"build with gcc instead of clang" (*) .

For those users with CC installed as gcc (including -stable), this
patch should have no effect.  Variations of combinations have been
heavily tested on pointyhat-west.  If there are any regressions, please
contact me.

You can see the difference in the errorlogs here:

With USE_GCC=any:

  
http://pointyhat-west.isc.freebsd.org/errorlogs/amd64-errorlogs/e.9-exp-clang.20121007231359.pointyhat-west/index-category.html

Without USE_GCC=any:

  
http://pointyhat-west.isc.freebsd.org/errorlogs/amd64-errorlogs/e.9-exp-clang.20121005165436.pointyhat-west/index-category.html

While the absolute number of errors is not that much different, that
is a false indication: over 2500 more packages are built "with" than
"without".

For those who wish to build *only* with clang, and thus defeat the
workaround, simply set FORCE_BASE_CC_FOR_TESTING=anything, either
in the Makefile line, or, if you are adventurous, in your /etc/make.conf.
We appreciate all the testing that we can get (it is too much for any
small group of people, much less one person.)

In the long run, I would like to see as many ports built natively with
clang as possible, and I appreciate the work that people have been doing
to move us towards that goal.  However, once the switch is made, it
would have been a burden to everyone tracking -current to have suddenly
found themselves "enlisted" in that effort :-)  So, for the medium-term,
this workaround should reduce the POLA violation.

*Note* that due to the high number (over a thousand!) ports that do not
build with clang, I arbitrarily decided to apply the workaround only to
"ports that block 2 or more other ports from building" union "important
ports".  This does not mean that the workaround shouldn't be applied to
other ports that are too hard to fix.

This is part 1 of a set of patches that are being proposed to deal with
the switchover.  As I merge and test them some more, I will put them out
for further review.

Thanks.

mcl

* several ports are very, very, clever, and detect clang anyways; others
build with gcc if CC is unset, but don't with CC=gcc.  These ports are
broken, and need to be fixed as we continue the process of switching over.
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Re: [HEADSUP] FYI: patch to ports that do not build with clang has been committed

[Mark Linimon]

On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 05:11:07PM +0200, Roman Divacky wrote:
> Can we arrange exp builds with FORCE_BASE_CC_FOR_TESTING=clang that
> will report all ports with USE_GCC=* but build with clang?

Sure.  That was kind of the intention.

mcl
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Re: November 5th is Clang-Day

[Mark Linimon]

On Thu, Nov 01, 2012 at 10:31:26PM -0700, Garrett Cooper wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 10:24 PM, Jan Beich  wrote:
> > emulators/wine doesn't work with lib32 built by clang, probably due to
> > wine bugs.
> 
> All of these items should be catalogued in a common place, like the
> wiki.

I've added http://wiki.freebsd.org/PortsAndClang#Runtime_failures .
I'll be happy to add entries for anyone who does not have wiki edit
credentials.  (Please email me off-list.)

mcl
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Re: -Current built with clang as default + ports

[Mark Linimon]

This is all good advice.  Note, however:

On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 10:59:49AM +0100, Dimitry Andric wrote:
> Of special interest are the results from the build cluster, where you
> can get a quick overview of which ports don't build, and how many other
> ports depend on them.

Unfortunately those web pages are offline right now and will not be
back online in the next few days.

mcl
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Re: svn commit: r244865 - in head: . lib lib/libdisk share/mk

[Mark Linimon]

On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 06:57:45PM -0800, Garrett Cooper wrote:
> This is what exp- runs are for (portmgr can help with this).

OTOH -exp runs are currently off the air.

mcl
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Re: Cross-architecture package installs

[Mark Linimon]

On Tue, Feb 05, 2013 at 10:34:18PM -0800, Tim Kientzle wrote:
> I'm working on tools to build ARM system images.
> Usually, these tools run on x86, which creates a problem
> for packages.

fwiw, before the intrusion 3 months ago, I had been able to build
native ARM packages with a loaned system.  Now, granted, this was
pretty slow, but it was a useful reference point.

Unfortunately none of the packages or logfiles are online at this time.

When I was at MeetBSD in California, I learned that the Foundation is
sponsoring an effort to get emulation for tier-2 machines in working
order, and that this will be the plan for package building going forwards.

This is just FYI so you don't spend a great deal of time on each
individual port.  I know the problems will be hard to solve.

mcl
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Re: CLANG and -fstack-protector

[Mark Linimon]

On Thu, Feb 07, 2013 at 11:52:42PM +0100, Jeremie Le Hen wrote:
> You can do this, it will work for most of the ports but some ports do
> not honor CFLAGS.

Ports that don't honor CFLAGS are broken ports.  Having said that,
the last time I ran a script that looked for them (and other things
like CXXFLAGS), the results were really disappointing.

This would be a good project for someone to take on.  OTOH this reply
is probably more appropriate for ports@.

mcl
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Re: Packages for Current ( 10.0 )

[Mark Linimon]

The portmgr team has not yet started regular package builds for -current.
We are working on re-allocating some resources to be able to do so.

Note, however, that with -current being an early branch of a new major
version, that the src that we are building against is changing rapidly.
My personal recommendation would be that if you want prebuilt packages,
you stay with -stable branches, unless you are particularly interested
in helping to test the state of -current.

mcl
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Re: Packages for Current ( 10.0 )

[Mark Linimon]

On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 12:04:45AM -0500, Mehmet Erol Sanliturk wrote:
> I would be very happy I can contribute anything to development of FreeBSD .

We are always happy to have help :-)

> If there appears an agenda of testing problems and explicit instructions
> how to apply tests , me and other persons may apply them and report the
> results .

Well, there really isn't.  There are some regression tests for src, but
we have never established a framework to run them all automatically.
Perhaps this is something you might be interested in?

> In a message ( I do not remember its author's name  ) it is said that there
> is no a farm of FreeBSD testing machines .

I presume that's "now" for "no"?

There are several sets.  Here's how they are set up.

 - there is a "src tinderbox" which continually rebuilds the FreeBSD
   src tree, for various combinations of architectures and osreleases.
   (For src, the architectures can be cross-built.)  These are intended
   to sanity-test that src is still buildable; in general the resulting
   binaries are not made available.

 - there is a "clang buildbot" whose purpose is to build FreeBSD src
   under clang continuously.

 - various people maintain "ports tinderboxes".  These are optimized
   for test-builds of one or at least a subset of the ports tree.  In
   general the resulting binaries are not made available.

 - there is a new effort, Redports, to assemble a collection of ports
   tinderbox machines and make them available to interested people.
   We are actively working on this.

 - portmgr maintains the "pointyhat cluster" that do the package builds
   which are uploaded.  These are optimized for building the entire
   ports tree in a secure fashion; the resulting binaries are made
   available.  We are in the process of getting more machines online.

 - the pointyhat cluster is also used for "-exp runs" where portmgr
   regression-tests proposed changes to the overall ports tree to
   try to ensure as few regressions for large changes as possible.

> If we can generate such a testing ecological system , I think , FreeBSD
> development will benefit from it very much .

I agree.  But, for src, it's not something that I know much about,
and will have to defer to others to comment.

mcl
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Re: "/sys/conf/kmod.mk", line 111: Malformed conditional (${MK_CLANG_IS_CC}

[Mark Linimon]

On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 11:49:44AM +0200, Dimitry Andric wrote:
> It would hopefully error out.  If you look in /usr/share/mk/bsd.kmod.mk,
> you will see this at the bottom:
> 
>   .if !defined(SYSDIR) || !exists(${SYSDIR}/kern/) || \
>   !exists(${SYSDIR}/conf/kmod.mk)
>   .error Unable to locate the kernel source tree. Set SYSDIR to override.
>   .endif
> 
> So, setting SYSDIR to the correct directory is also a possible solution.

Note that in ports-land we discourage .error in the ports infrastructure
as it can make it impossible to query metadata (e.g. make index,
make -V maintainer, etc.)  So this usage should stay in src.

mcl
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Re: HEADSUP: /etc/malloc.conf format change

[Mark Linimon]

On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 09:37:36PM -0700, Tim Kientzle wrote:
> The Ports maintainers will run "experimental" ports builds on the
> port build clusters to help verify potentially disruptive changes
> like this before they are committed.

Well, actually, portmgr@.  Send a PR with [exp-run] in the Synopsis
and assign it to portmgr.

We are slowly trying to get caught up, now that we have new hardware.

mcl
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Re: FYI clang fails to build ports argp-standalone

[Mark Linimon]

a) the best place is freebsd-ports@
b) we do periodic builds of ports with clang as default but in general
   clang is not ready to be the default compiler yet.  Please see
   http://wiki.freebsd.org/PortsAndClang .

mcl
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Re: UFS+J panics on HEAD

[Mark Linimon]

On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 10:58:48PM +0100, Steven Hartland wrote:
> While it might be a shame to see FFS go by the wayside are there any
> big reasons why you would rather stick with FFS instead of moving
> to ZFS with all the benefits that brings?

 - ZFS eats bytes for breakfast.  It is completely inappropriate
   for anything with less than 4GB RAM.

 - ZFS performs poorly under disk-nearly-full conditions.

mcl
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Re: Use of C99 extra long double math functions after r236148

[Mark Linimon]

Perhaps a more general name might be appropriate so as to include
fixed-point problems?  math-libs@?  numerics@?

I'm sure someone will come up with a better name.

mcl
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Re: Why Are You NOT Using FreeBSD?

[Mark Linimon]

> One doesn't have to live at the bleeding edge with ports if one
> doesn't want to even when compiling.  One can live a day, a week,
> a month behind the bleeding edge and allow other to hit problems
> and report them.

To be pedantic, there's a lot of difference between reporting problems,
and supplying fixes.

Sometimes figuring out the fixes is beyond the capabilities of our
maintainers, of course.  People should feel free to ask for help on
the mailing lists or forums in those cases.

But our general problem won't be solved merely by tagging.  There
have to be people willing to test based only on whatever tree, or
branch, or whatever, has been tagged.  This is on reason why the tree
at release time is _somewhat_ more stable: we are asking people to
test, test, test.  (The fact that we slow down the rate of major changes
to the tree accounts for the rest.)

mcl
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Re: Why Are You NOT Using FreeBSD?

[Mark Linimon]

On Tue, Jun 05, 2012 at 12:18:33PM +0700, Erich wrote:
> I did not know this. Do you have a link for this? I never read about it.

The EOL announcements have them.  I don't think the release announcements
do, however.

mcl
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Re: Why Are You NOT Using FreeBSD?

[Mark Linimon]

On Tue, Jun 05, 2012 at 01:00:45PM +0700, Erich wrote:
> All of these, with the exception of HEAD (which is always a valid tag),
> only apply to the src/ tree. The ports/, doc/, and www/ trees are not
> branched.

If you create a branch, you must create a tag for that branch.

However, you can create a tag without creating a branch.  That is what
is done for the ports tree.

It's not particularly easy to see this on cvsweb.  But let's take a look
at a random Mk/bsd.*.mk file via 'cvs log':

  RCS file: /home/FreeBSD/pcvs/ports/Mk/bsd.apache.mk,v
  Working file: bsd.apache.mk
  head: 1.36
  branch:
  locks: strict
  access list:
  symbolic names:
  RELEASE_8_3_0: 1.35
  RELEASE_9_0_0: 1.33
  RELEASE_7_4_0: 1.26
  RELEASE_8_2_0: 1.26
  RELEASE_6_EOL: 1.26
  [...]
  RELEASE_6_1_0: 1.9
  RELEASE_5_5_0: 1.9
  keyword substitution: kv
  total revisions: 36;selected revisions: 36
  description:
  
  revision 1.36
  date: 2012/05/23 08:17:48;  author: miwi;  state: Exp;  lines: +2 -2
  - Remove emacs mode, -*- mode: ...; -*- [1]
  - Comments for BUILD_ and RUN_DEPENDS fail to mention alternate means to 
specify dependencie [2]
  - Fix make reinstall [3]
  - Trivial comment change for PORTDATA [4]
  [...]

and so forth.

The line "RELEASE_8_3_0: 1.35" tells you "the version of this file
as of tag RELEASE_8_3_0 was r1.35."  So that's what's on the 8.3R
distribution media.

mcl
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Re: Why Are You NOT Using FreeBSD?

[Mark Linimon]

On Tue, Jun 05, 2012 at 03:23:01PM +0700, Erich wrote:
> But is this true for apache only or for the whole ports tree?

Entire tree.

mcl
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Re: Import of DragonFly Mail Agent

[Mark Linimon]

On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 09:40:26AM -0600, Bryan Drewery wrote:
> IMHO base should be the very minimalistic needs to get a server online,
> and should be secure and simple by default. ...
> Anything not meeting the bare-bones criteria can be installed with 'pkg
> install' or ports.

+1 (OTOH I am not volunteering to do the work :-) )

mcl
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Re: PR for pf in kernel

[Mark Linimon]

On Sun, Mar 02, 2014 at 12:39:07AM +0200, Michael Pounov wrote:
> Hi, I wrote this mail because on web page "Submit Bug-report" missing
> severity for PR and priority options.

Those two fields have become meaningless due to everyone overusing
them.  Changing them will not have much effect.

mcl
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Re: login.conf --> UTF-8

[Mark Linimon]

On Wed, Apr 02, 2014 at 03:56:35PM -0700, Sean Bruno wrote:
> I have been informed by folks that this change I suggest would help in
> the case of ports having to declare UTF-8 support explicitly or
> something.

Clearly ports that need to do this are broken -- but this very much an
edge-case of brokenness.  There's so much other lower-hanging fruit than
to fix the individual offenders.

mcl
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Re: vt text cursor invisible in reverse video

[Mark Linimon]

On Wed, Apr 02, 2014 at 01:01:11PM +0200, Claude Buisson wrote:
> After 19 years of FreeBSD use and not being part of any chapel/coterie/mafia
> I don't keep much illusion about the outcome..

I'm sorry that you feel that way.

Rest assured that a large number of those of us that work on FreeBSD do
try to improve the software.  We also try to figure out ways to get more
people involved as contributors, to keep things from becoming stagnant.

Yes, I know we're not always successful.

mcl
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Re: OpenSSL vs. LibreSSL (OpenBSD)

[Mark Linimon]

On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 03:05:40PM -0700, Justin Hibbits wrote:
> > We need to discuss the use of comic sans font across our web properties
> > first.
> >
> > -Alfred
> 
> You, sir, win 2 internets.
> 
> - Justin

seconded.
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Re: gccmakedep fix - 20130619

[Mark Linimon]

On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 01:51:42AM +0200, Oliver Pinter wrote:
> > 3) Is not it better to submit via PR (GNATS) rather than a mailing list?
> >   That's what PRs are for...
> 
> Mail are faster than PR-s.

If we all go down that route, it means less and less people will try
to read all the traffic on ports@.  Please, use the PR database for
what's it's intended for.  Thanks.

mcl
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Re: [HEADSUP] No more pkg_install on HEAD by default

[Mark Linimon]

fwiw, nanobsd also is still on pkg_*, but I intend to come up with
patches for that if someone else has not already done so.

mcl
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Re: GCC withdraw

[Mark Linimon]

On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 10:41:18AM -0400, John Baldwin wrote:
> So my take away from this is that you have no plans to support any platform
> that doesn't support clang as you just expect ia64 and sparc64 to die and
> not be present in 11.0.  That may be the best path, but I've certainly not
> seen that goal discussed publically.

If this is the case, IMHO:

 - it's a decision to be made by the project as a whole, not just one
   individual;

 - if the decision is made, there should be one major release cycle
   before it's done;

 - our userbase (admittedly small) should have a heads-up that they
   will have to migrate after that timeframe.

fwiw, unlike alpha, which was withdrawn because it had ceased to function,
sparc64 and ia64 work and have active developer(s), so I don't think it
would be entirely fair to cite its removal as a precedent.

tl;dr: just because you don't use these boxes doesn't mean others don't.

mcl
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Re: Request to mailing list freebsd-security rejected

[Mark Linimon]

On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 08:17:23AM -0400, Etienne Robillard wrote:
> Google "cognitive dissonance" for more info...

Google "plonk" for more info.

mcl
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Re: Building FreeBSD 9.0-CUR/amd64 with CLANG fails

[Mark Linimon]

On Wed, May 04, 2011 at 09:17:23AM +0200, O. Hartmann wrote:
> I guess the ports-tree isn't mature for clang.

That's correct.

mcl
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Re: gcc-4.5 and 4.6 needs to be recompiled due to /usr/src/UPDATE: 20110608:

[Mark Linimon]

Things that change the way the base system behaves w/rt ports need
version bumps.

mcl
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Re: New installation script

[Mark Linimon]

On Sat, Aug 06, 2011 at 01:18:02PM -0400, Garrett Wollman wrote:
> I initially chose "traditional Unix workstation", which was unusable.
> (Never did find the control or escape key, which made vi particularly
> difficult to use.)

It should probably be labeled "old-fart Unix user" which would have
instantly told me that it put the Control key back in the pre-IMB-PC
location (where the idiotic and counter-productive 'Caps Lock' key is
now, sigh).

But that battle was lost several decades ago.

mcl
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Re: [head tinderbox] failure on powerpc/powerpc

[Mark Linimon]

On Mon, Aug 08, 2011 at 06:53:40PM -0400, Super Bisquit wrote:
> Why does Tinderbox need cross tools? Is the build not native? If so, then
> the rationale would be to build on the architecture and not use cross
> compilation.

 - There are no powerpc machines currently online at *.FreeBSD.org.

 - The powerpc machines that we run on are far slower than the tinderbox
   machines.

 - Even if we had powerpc machines available, and could deal with the
   time-lag for world builds, what then about archs with no native
   machines available (e.g. MIPS)?

Cross compilation is needed in this case.

mcl
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Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html

[Mark Linimon]

On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 09:45:09PM +0800, Paul Ambrose wrote:
> 3 There is a missing feature list about DTrace, but no schedule list about
> when to fix it.

We just need someone who wants to spend a lot of time working on it.

Without that, there is no point in putting up a schedule.

mcl
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Re: cvsup broken on amd64?

[Mark Linimon]

> Usually rather quite later than sooner.

A perfect opportunity for src committers to dive in and make a
difference :-)

mcl
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orangepi [was: what happened to src/sys/boot?]

[Mark Linimon]

On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 08:55:20PM +0200, Daniel Braniss wrote:
> ok, the image created now boots on both orangepi-one and nanopi-neo,
> but without ethernet! 

So w/rt orangepi-one testing I think I'm now at parity with your
build -- with whatever bits I had a week ago.  e.g. I also do not detect
the ethernet.

I am currently testing a bad hack for orangepi-plus2e that disables
attaching the mixer to see if I can avoid a panic on boot, so I can get
at least as far as the orangepi-one results.  That's with the very latest
code checkout.

I'll let the list know if I get anywhere.

mcl
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Re: orangepi [was: what happened to src/sys/boot?]

[Mark Linimon]

On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 09:33:09PM +0100, Milan Obuch wrote:
> Please see thread on freebsd-arm mailing list starting with my message
> titled 'Allwinner H3/H2+ dts question - regression?'

Ah, ok.  My brain did not associate "H3/H2+" with "Orange Pi" so I simply
skipped it.

In any case I can now get the Orange Pi + 2E to boot multiuser and have
it work the same as the Orange Pi One, with the following hack.  Actually
fixing the problem is "left as an exercise for the reader" :-)

  https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=224070

mcl
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Re: valloric YCM [header definitions]

[Mark Linimon]

On Wed, Dec 06, 2017 at 02:18:29AM +0800, blubee blubeeme wrote:
> I'm looking for where the u_int, u_long headers are defined?

Although it seems to be out-of-date, for something fundamental like this
you should be able to use the FXR instance:

  http://fxr.watson.org/fxr/search

mcl
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Re: Clang-6 and GNUisms.

[Mark Linimon]

The problem is even worse on armv6/armv7/aarch64, and much worse on
powerpc64/sparc64, which still have gcc in base.

I have not been saving up the emails where ports committers have been
fixing various failure modes.  I hesitate to start making harmless-
seeming patches myself for fear of my non-existant C++ skills.

I would be glad to help someone write up some documentation.  This
affects hundreds of port builds right now -- I have not even caught
up yet on tracking them all.

mcl
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Re: [RFC] Deprecation and removal of the drm2 driver

[Mark Linimon]

On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 04:19:21PM -0400, Daniel Eischen wrote:
> I can easily imagine an embedded x86 kiosk type appliance.

We need to evaluate the tradeoff of "what we can imagine someone will
do with FreeBSD" vs. "what are people using with FreeBSD right now."

mcl
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Re: hwpmc - wither ppro and p4

[Mark Linimon]

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 12:58:23PM -0700, Steve Kargl wrote:
> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 11:08:18AM -0700, Matthew Macy wrote:
> > 
> > Based on the i386 discussion I recognize that there's a great deal of
> > sentimental attachment to older hardware. However, there's very few
> 
> s/sentimental/practical

I know, but ... in this special case of _performance measurement_ code
on old hardware, I'm going to have to agree with Matt.

mcl
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Re: PR backlog (was: [RFC] Deprecation and removal of the drm2 driver)

[Mark Linimon]

Straying off-topic from the Subject line ...

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 11:34:18AM -0400, Joe Maloney wrote:
> Technically since I was using PC-BSD, and was a committer for that
> project I had no real dire need to reach out to FreeBSD about the
> [wireless driver issue].  I was simply trying to help anyone else
> who might be encountering the same issue trying to use stock FreeBSD
> because it was a simple backport.  If my effort had turned out to be
> more fruitful I would have spent more time pursuing tickets, diffs,
> or whatever to get more things back-ported when I found them.

FreeBSD doesn't do well handling problem reports.  We've known it for
years but no one has come up with a magic solution yet.

We have volunteers willing to triage, but not enough committers willing
to suspend working on their own priorities to work through the backlog.
(It's understandable, really.)

And the backlog is astounding. (*)

I hesitate to even look, but ...

  kern   3270
  ports  2010
  bin1607

The flow has decreased from where it was a few years ago -- this stat
says that 727 total new ones have come in this month.

We do slightly better turning over ports PRs -- due to the fact that
we attach a maintainer field to each port.  This doesn't completely
solve the problem, but it goes some distance.

Finally, the number of PRs with patches stands around 1021.  That is
particularly disappointing.

Well, it's too bad we weren't able to corral you into keeping working
on such things.  fwiw.

mcl

*: there are other categories but these constitute the majority (9485
in total).
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Re: PR backlog (was: [RFC] Deprecation and removal of the drm2 driver)

[Mark Linimon]

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 10:25:10PM -0500, Matthew D. Fuller wrote:
> because the incentives are rigged.  A bad outside contribution brought
> into ports more often yields "hey, you should have noticed" to the
> committer and more opprobrium back to the submitter.

I believe you're missing two important points:

 - there is feedback to the ports committers that goes on behind the
   scenes (e.g. not on public mailing lists);

 - everyone who uses FreeBSD needs src to work.  Not everyone who uses
   FreeBSD needs even a large fraction of ports to work.

Let me reframe this debate.  To me, the correct comparison is:

  "compare commits to src"

 vs. 

  "compare commits to key ports pieces such as Mk/, perl, apache24, &c"

Commits to the latter are thoroughly tested* in external staging areas
and/or "exp-runs" done by portmgr, _before_ they hit the tree.

For src committers that aren't aware: since adopting the exp-runs, there
have been far, far, fewer large-scale regressions of the ports tree.
Check the monthly portmgr reports to see how much work is going into
this -- and that doesn't count projects like gnome and kde that do their
own external precommit work.

Also, IMHO talking about whether this process is, or should be, automated
misses the point.  The distinguishing feature is the buy-in by the people
who are making changes to the tree to have done sufficient testing _first_.
Without that buy-in, the tools are irrelvant.

Next, let me assure you that anyone who breaks those key pieces of ports
hears about it _immediately_.

tl:dr; at least for the key pieces, FreeBSD ports has moved away from the
"throw it at the wall to see if it will stick" paradigm.  That's the part
of the codebase that ought to be the comparison point.

mcl

* almost always.  They are supposed to be, in any case.  Humans are involved.
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