Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base

2019-05-02 Thread Zane C. B-H.

On 2019-04-30 17:03, Miroslav Lachman wrote:

David Chisnall wrote on 2019/04/30 10:22:

On 29/04/2019 21:12, Joe Maloney wrote:
With CFT version you chose to build, and package individual 
components such as sendmail with a port option.  That does entirely 
solve the problem of being able to reinstall sendmail after the fact 
without a rebuild of the userland (base) port but perhaps base 
flavors could solve that problem assuming flavors could extend beyond 
python.


This sounds very much like local optimisation. It's now easy to create 
a custom base image.  Great.  But how do I express dependencies in 
ports on a specific base configuration? This is easy if I depend on a 
specific base package, but how does this work in your model?  For 
example, if I have a package that depends on a library that is an 
optional part of the base system, how do I express that pkg needs to 
either refuse to install it, or install a userland pkg that includes 
that library in place of my existing version as part of the install 
process?


More importantly for the container use case, if I want to take a 
completely empty jail and do pkg ins nginx (for example), what does 
the maintainer of the nginx port need to do to express the minimum set 
of the base system that needs to be installed to allow nginx to work?


One of the goals for the pkg base concept was to allow this kind of 
use case, easily creating a minimal environment required to run a 
single service. With a monolithic base package set, you're going to 
need some mechanism other than packages to express the specific base 
subset package that you need and I think that you need to justify why 
this mechanism is better than using small individual packages.


Will it not be maintainer's nightmare to take care of all the
dependencies on the base packages for each port we have in the ports
tree?


Speaking as a ports maintainer, it will be very annoying. Splitting it 
into a handful of large ass packages, same as you are presented with 
during install, would be best.

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Re: Mount Root fails: r347007

2019-05-02 Thread Warner Losh
On Wed, May 1, 2019 at 10:04 PM Larry Rosenman  wrote:

> Upgraded from r346487 to r347007, and when I reboot, I get a mountroot
> prompt.  If I answer it with the same BootFS I booted from
> (zfs:zroot/ROOT/r347007) it continues to boot, and run.
>
> Dmesg: https://www.lerctr.org/~ler/Boot-NoRoot.txt
>
> What else do we need?
>
> I did upgrade the EFI partitions, and the freebsd-boot partitions
> and that did *NOT* change anything.
>
> Ideas?
>

BIOS or UEFI booting?

Warner
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Re: Mount Root fails: r347007

2019-05-02 Thread Larry Rosenman

On 05/02/2019 8:29 am, Warner Losh wrote:

On Wed, May 1, 2019 at 10:04 PM Larry Rosenman  wrote:


Upgraded from r346487 to r347007, and when I reboot, I get a mountroot
prompt.  If I answer it with the same BootFS I booted from
(zfs:zroot/ROOT/r347007) it continues to boot, and run.

Dmesg: https://www.lerctr.org/~ler/Boot-NoRoot.txt

What else do we need?

I did upgrade the EFI partitions, and the freebsd-boot partitions
and that did *NOT* change anything.

Ideas?



BIOS or UEFI booting?

Warner
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UEFI boot.


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Re: Mount Root fails: r347007

2019-05-02 Thread Warner Losh
On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 7:40 AM Larry Rosenman  wrote:

> On 05/02/2019 8:29 am, Warner Losh wrote:
> > On Wed, May 1, 2019 at 10:04 PM Larry Rosenman  wrote:
> >
> >> Upgraded from r346487 to r347007, and when I reboot, I get a mountroot
> >> prompt.  If I answer it with the same BootFS I booted from
> >> (zfs:zroot/ROOT/r347007) it continues to boot, and run.
> >>
> >> Dmesg: https://www.lerctr.org/~ler/Boot-NoRoot.txt
> >>
> >> What else do we need?
> >>
> >> I did upgrade the EFI partitions, and the freebsd-boot partitions
> >> and that did *NOT* change anything.
> >>
> >> Ideas?
> >>
> >
> > BIOS or UEFI booting?
>
> UEFI boot.
>

So no change to \efi\boot\bootx64.efi (or whatever you are booting?

Can you get the output of 'show' in the boot loader?

Also, is there a way you can try one or two of the versions in between
346487 and 347007 to try to narrow the changes down a bit?

Warner
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Re: Mount Root fails: r347007

2019-05-02 Thread Larry Rosenman

On 05/02/2019 9:24 am, Warner Losh wrote:

On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 7:40 AM Larry Rosenman  wrote:


On 05/02/2019 8:29 am, Warner Losh wrote:
> On Wed, May 1, 2019 at 10:04 PM Larry Rosenman  wrote:
>
>> Upgraded from r346487 to r347007, and when I reboot, I get a mountroot
>> prompt.  If I answer it with the same BootFS I booted from
>> (zfs:zroot/ROOT/r347007) it continues to boot, and run.
>>
>> Dmesg: https://www.lerctr.org/~ler/Boot-NoRoot.txt
>>
>> What else do we need?
>>
>> I did upgrade the EFI partitions, and the freebsd-boot partitions
>> and that did *NOT* change anything.
>>
>> Ideas?
>>
>
> BIOS or UEFI booting?

UEFI boot.



So no change to \efi\boot\bootx64.efi (or whatever you are booting?

Can you get the output of 'show' in the boot loader?

Also, is there a way you can try one or two of the versions in between
346487 and 347007 to try to narrow the changes down a bit?

Warner


show output in 4 screenshots: 
https://www.lerctr.org/~ler/FreeBSD/NO-BOOT/


What's the easiest way to try some of the other revisions?  And which 
would

you suggest?  (I'm set up for meta-mode).



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Got the same error from gptzfsboot this morning

2019-05-02 Thread Thomas Laus
Toomas:

My laptop has been booting up flawlessly since I installed the
gptzfsboot file that you sent.  It also successfully rebooted from a
cold start this morning but I received the same error message just a few
minutes ago when powering up again.

gptzfsboot: error 1 LBA 18446744072709551608
gptzfsboot: error 1 LBA 1
gptzfsboot: No ZFS pools located, can't boot

On my third retry, I was successful.  This is the same LBA and error
number that I was getting previously.

Tom

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Re: Mount Root fails: r347007

2019-05-02 Thread Larry Rosenman

On 05/02/2019 9:41 am, Larry Rosenman wrote:

On 05/02/2019 9:24 am, Warner Losh wrote:

On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 7:40 AM Larry Rosenman  wrote:


On 05/02/2019 8:29 am, Warner Losh wrote:
> On Wed, May 1, 2019 at 10:04 PM Larry Rosenman  wrote:
>
>> Upgraded from r346487 to r347007, and when I reboot, I get a mountroot
>> prompt.  If I answer it with the same BootFS I booted from
>> (zfs:zroot/ROOT/r347007) it continues to boot, and run.
>>
>> Dmesg: https://www.lerctr.org/~ler/Boot-NoRoot.txt
>>
>> What else do we need?
>>
>> I did upgrade the EFI partitions, and the freebsd-boot partitions
>> and that did *NOT* change anything.
>>
>> Ideas?
>>
>
> BIOS or UEFI booting?

UEFI boot.



So no change to \efi\boot\bootx64.efi (or whatever you are booting?

Can you get the output of 'show' in the boot loader?

Also, is there a way you can try one or two of the versions in between
346487 and 347007 to try to narrow the changes down a bit?

Warner


show output in 4 screenshots: 
https://www.lerctr.org/~ler/FreeBSD/NO-BOOT/


What's the easiest way to try some of the other revisions?  And which 
would

you suggest?  (I'm set up for meta-mode).
working with Kyle Evans on IRC, and backing /boot/loader.efi to r346487 
lets the system boot

normally.


--
Larry Rosenman http://www.lerctr.org/~ler
Phone: +1 214-642-9640 E-Mail: l...@lerctr.org
US Mail: 5708 Sabbia Dr, Round Rock, TX 78665-2106
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Re: Mount Root fails: r347007

2019-05-02 Thread Warner Losh
On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 9:54 AM Larry Rosenman  wrote:

> On 05/02/2019 9:41 am, Larry Rosenman wrote:
> > On 05/02/2019 9:24 am, Warner Losh wrote:
> >> On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 7:40 AM Larry Rosenman  wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 05/02/2019 8:29 am, Warner Losh wrote:
> >>> > On Wed, May 1, 2019 at 10:04 PM Larry Rosenman 
> wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> >> Upgraded from r346487 to r347007, and when I reboot, I get a
> mountroot
> >>> >> prompt.  If I answer it with the same BootFS I booted from
> >>> >> (zfs:zroot/ROOT/r347007) it continues to boot, and run.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Dmesg: https://www.lerctr.org/~ler/Boot-NoRoot.txt
> >>> >>
> >>> >> What else do we need?
> >>> >>
> >>> >> I did upgrade the EFI partitions, and the freebsd-boot partitions
> >>> >> and that did *NOT* change anything.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Ideas?
> >>> >>
> >>> >
> >>> > BIOS or UEFI booting?
> >>>
> >>> UEFI boot.
> >>>
> >>
> >> So no change to \efi\boot\bootx64.efi (or whatever you are booting?
> >>
> >> Can you get the output of 'show' in the boot loader?
> >>
> >> Also, is there a way you can try one or two of the versions in between
> >> 346487 and 347007 to try to narrow the changes down a bit?
> >>
> >> Warner
> >
> > show output in 4 screenshots:
> > https://www.lerctr.org/~ler/FreeBSD/NO-BOOT/
> >
> > What's the easiest way to try some of the other revisions?  And which
> > would
> > you suggest?  (I'm set up for meta-mode).
> working with Kyle Evans on IRC, and backing /boot/loader.efi to r346487
> lets the system boot
> normally.
>

OK. I noticed vfs.root.mountfrom wasn't set. Can you see if it's set in
your successfully booted system with kenv?

Warner
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Rotating (efi) framebuffer

2019-05-02 Thread Johannes Lundberg
Hi

I have a Lenovo Ideapad where the screen is rotated 90 degrees and I
can't rotate it to landscape mode until I'm in X. How many of you are in
the same situation and would like a fix? Seeing how development is going
with small (tiny) computers it will probably be more and more common
with ultra portables having a "phone screen" which most likely is in
portrait mode by default. This also applies to embedded and home brew /
prototype devices.

It would certainly be nice if we could have a boot time parameter that
could rotate the framebuffer (just as a data point, I'm pretty sure
Linux can do this). How many would be interested in this? Is there
anyone working on this atm? Not sure I will have the time to develop
this all of my own but thought I'd check the interest at least. Perhaps
a GSoC project?

Cheers
Johannes


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Re: Mount Root fails: r347007

2019-05-02 Thread Larry Rosenman

On 05/02/2019 10:58 am, Warner Losh wrote:

On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 9:54 AM Larry Rosenman  wrote:


On 05/02/2019 9:41 am, Larry Rosenman wrote:
> On 05/02/2019 9:24 am, Warner Losh wrote:
>> On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 7:40 AM Larry Rosenman  wrote:
>>
>>> On 05/02/2019 8:29 am, Warner Losh wrote:
>>> > On Wed, May 1, 2019 at 10:04 PM Larry Rosenman 
wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Upgraded from r346487 to r347007, and when I reboot, I get a
mountroot
>>> >> prompt.  If I answer it with the same BootFS I booted from
>>> >> (zfs:zroot/ROOT/r347007) it continues to boot, and run.
>>> >>
>>> >> Dmesg: https://www.lerctr.org/~ler/Boot-NoRoot.txt
>>> >>
>>> >> What else do we need?
>>> >>
>>> >> I did upgrade the EFI partitions, and the freebsd-boot partitions
>>> >> and that did *NOT* change anything.
>>> >>
>>> >> Ideas?
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > BIOS or UEFI booting?
>>>
>>> UEFI boot.
>>>
>>
>> So no change to \efi\boot\bootx64.efi (or whatever you are booting?
>>
>> Can you get the output of 'show' in the boot loader?
>>
>> Also, is there a way you can try one or two of the versions in between
>> 346487 and 347007 to try to narrow the changes down a bit?
>>
>> Warner
>
> show output in 4 screenshots:
> https://www.lerctr.org/~ler/FreeBSD/NO-BOOT/
>
> What's the easiest way to try some of the other revisions?  And which
> would
> you suggest?  (I'm set up for meta-mode).
working with Kyle Evans on IRC, and backing /boot/loader.efi to 
r346487

lets the system boot
normally.



OK. I noticed vfs.root.mountfrom wasn't set. Can you see if it's set in
your successfully booted system with kenv?



2 things: r346675 still works, and vfs.root.mountfrom *IS* set.
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US Mail: 5708 Sabbia Dr, Round Rock, TX 78665-2106
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Re: Mount Root fails: r347007

2019-05-02 Thread Larry Rosenman

On 05/02/2019 11:10 am, Larry Rosenman wrote:

On 05/02/2019 10:58 am, Warner Losh wrote:

On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 9:54 AM Larry Rosenman  wrote:


On 05/02/2019 9:41 am, Larry Rosenman wrote:
> On 05/02/2019 9:24 am, Warner Losh wrote:
>> On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 7:40 AM Larry Rosenman  wrote:
>>
>>> On 05/02/2019 8:29 am, Warner Losh wrote:
>>> > On Wed, May 1, 2019 at 10:04 PM Larry Rosenman 
wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Upgraded from r346487 to r347007, and when I reboot, I get a
mountroot
>>> >> prompt.  If I answer it with the same BootFS I booted from
>>> >> (zfs:zroot/ROOT/r347007) it continues to boot, and run.
>>> >>
>>> >> Dmesg: https://www.lerctr.org/~ler/Boot-NoRoot.txt
>>> >>
>>> >> What else do we need?
>>> >>
>>> >> I did upgrade the EFI partitions, and the freebsd-boot partitions
>>> >> and that did *NOT* change anything.
>>> >>
>>> >> Ideas?
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > BIOS or UEFI booting?
>>>
>>> UEFI boot.
>>>
>>
>> So no change to \efi\boot\bootx64.efi (or whatever you are booting?
>>
>> Can you get the output of 'show' in the boot loader?
>>
>> Also, is there a way you can try one or two of the versions in between
>> 346487 and 347007 to try to narrow the changes down a bit?
>>
>> Warner
>
> show output in 4 screenshots:
> https://www.lerctr.org/~ler/FreeBSD/NO-BOOT/
>
> What's the easiest way to try some of the other revisions?  And which
> would
> you suggest?  (I'm set up for meta-mode).
working with Kyle Evans on IRC, and backing /boot/loader.efi to 
r346487

lets the system boot
normally.



OK. I noticed vfs.root.mountfrom wasn't set. Can you see if it's set 
in

your successfully booted system with kenv?



2 things: r346675 still works, and vfs.root.mountfrom *IS* set.

r346879 does *NOT* work.  Stepping back to r346759


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Re: Mount Root fails: r347007

2019-05-02 Thread Larry Rosenman

On 05/02/2019 11:34 am, Larry Rosenman wrote:

On 05/02/2019 11:10 am, Larry Rosenman wrote:

On 05/02/2019 10:58 am, Warner Losh wrote:

On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 9:54 AM Larry Rosenman  wrote:


On 05/02/2019 9:41 am, Larry Rosenman wrote:
> On 05/02/2019 9:24 am, Warner Losh wrote:
>> On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 7:40 AM Larry Rosenman  wrote:
>>
>>> On 05/02/2019 8:29 am, Warner Losh wrote:
>>> > On Wed, May 1, 2019 at 10:04 PM Larry Rosenman 
wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Upgraded from r346487 to r347007, and when I reboot, I get a
mountroot
>>> >> prompt.  If I answer it with the same BootFS I booted from
>>> >> (zfs:zroot/ROOT/r347007) it continues to boot, and run.
>>> >>
>>> >> Dmesg: https://www.lerctr.org/~ler/Boot-NoRoot.txt
>>> >>
>>> >> What else do we need?
>>> >>
>>> >> I did upgrade the EFI partitions, and the freebsd-boot partitions
>>> >> and that did *NOT* change anything.
>>> >>
>>> >> Ideas?
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > BIOS or UEFI booting?
>>>
>>> UEFI boot.
>>>
>>
>> So no change to \efi\boot\bootx64.efi (or whatever you are booting?
>>
>> Can you get the output of 'show' in the boot loader?
>>
>> Also, is there a way you can try one or two of the versions in between
>> 346487 and 347007 to try to narrow the changes down a bit?
>>
>> Warner
>
> show output in 4 screenshots:
> https://www.lerctr.org/~ler/FreeBSD/NO-BOOT/
>
> What's the easiest way to try some of the other revisions?  And which
> would
> you suggest?  (I'm set up for meta-mode).
working with Kyle Evans on IRC, and backing /boot/loader.efi to 
r346487

lets the system boot
normally.



OK. I noticed vfs.root.mountfrom wasn't set. Can you see if it's set 
in

your successfully booted system with kenv?



2 things: r346675 still works, and vfs.root.mountfrom *IS* set.

r346879 does *NOT* work.  Stepping back to r346759

r346759 *WORKS*.  So it's r346879 that breaks it.


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Re: Mount Root fails: r347007

2019-05-02 Thread Kyle Evans
On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 11:40 AM Larry Rosenman  wrote:
>
> On 05/02/2019 11:34 am, Larry Rosenman wrote:
> > On 05/02/2019 11:10 am, Larry Rosenman wrote:
> >> On 05/02/2019 10:58 am, Warner Losh wrote:
> >>> On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 9:54 AM Larry Rosenman  wrote:
> >>>
>  On 05/02/2019 9:41 am, Larry Rosenman wrote:
>  > On 05/02/2019 9:24 am, Warner Losh wrote:
>  >> On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 7:40 AM Larry Rosenman  wrote:
>  >>
>  >>> On 05/02/2019 8:29 am, Warner Losh wrote:
>  >>> > On Wed, May 1, 2019 at 10:04 PM Larry Rosenman 
>  wrote:
>  >>> >
>  >>> >> Upgraded from r346487 to r347007, and when I reboot, I get a
>  mountroot
>  >>> >> prompt.  If I answer it with the same BootFS I booted from
>  >>> >> (zfs:zroot/ROOT/r347007) it continues to boot, and run.
>  >>> >>
>  >>> >> Dmesg: https://www.lerctr.org/~ler/Boot-NoRoot.txt
>  >>> >>
>  >>> >> What else do we need?
>  >>> >>
>  >>> >> I did upgrade the EFI partitions, and the freebsd-boot partitions
>  >>> >> and that did *NOT* change anything.
>  >>> >>
>  >>> >> Ideas?
>  >>> >>
>  >>> >
>  >>> > BIOS or UEFI booting?
>  >>>
>  >>> UEFI boot.
>  >>>
>  >>
>  >> So no change to \efi\boot\bootx64.efi (or whatever you are booting?
>  >>
>  >> Can you get the output of 'show' in the boot loader?
>  >>
>  >> Also, is there a way you can try one or two of the versions in between
>  >> 346487 and 347007 to try to narrow the changes down a bit?
>  >>
>  >> Warner
>  >
>  > show output in 4 screenshots:
>  > https://www.lerctr.org/~ler/FreeBSD/NO-BOOT/
>  >
>  > What's the easiest way to try some of the other revisions?  And which
>  > would
>  > you suggest?  (I'm set up for meta-mode).
>  working with Kyle Evans on IRC, and backing /boot/loader.efi to
>  r346487
>  lets the system boot
>  normally.
> 
> >>>
> >>> OK. I noticed vfs.root.mountfrom wasn't set. Can you see if it's set
> >>> in
> >>> your successfully booted system with kenv?
> >>>
> >>
> >> 2 things: r346675 still works, and vfs.root.mountfrom *IS* set.
> > r346879 does *NOT* work.  Stepping back to r346759
> r346759 *WORKS*.  So it's r346879 that breaks it.
>

Hi,

Head back to -head and try applying [0] -- this block was accidentally
reintroduced, and I wouldn't be surprised if the double-initialization
has some weird side effect.

[0] https://people.freebsd.org/~kevans/loader.diff
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Re: Mount Root fails: r347007

2019-05-02 Thread Kyle Evans
On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 11:42 AM Kyle Evans  wrote:
>
> On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 11:40 AM Larry Rosenman  wrote:
> >
> > On 05/02/2019 11:34 am, Larry Rosenman wrote:
> > > On 05/02/2019 11:10 am, Larry Rosenman wrote:
> > >> On 05/02/2019 10:58 am, Warner Losh wrote:
> > >>> On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 9:54 AM Larry Rosenman  wrote:
> > >>>
> >  On 05/02/2019 9:41 am, Larry Rosenman wrote:
> >  > On 05/02/2019 9:24 am, Warner Losh wrote:
> >  >> On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 7:40 AM Larry Rosenman  
> >  >> wrote:
> >  >>
> >  >>> On 05/02/2019 8:29 am, Warner Losh wrote:
> >  >>> > On Wed, May 1, 2019 at 10:04 PM Larry Rosenman 
> >  wrote:
> >  >>> >
> >  >>> >> Upgraded from r346487 to r347007, and when I reboot, I get a
> >  mountroot
> >  >>> >> prompt.  If I answer it with the same BootFS I booted from
> >  >>> >> (zfs:zroot/ROOT/r347007) it continues to boot, and run.
> >  >>> >>
> >  >>> >> Dmesg: https://www.lerctr.org/~ler/Boot-NoRoot.txt
> >  >>> >>
> >  >>> >> What else do we need?
> >  >>> >>
> >  >>> >> I did upgrade the EFI partitions, and the freebsd-boot 
> >  >>> >> partitions
> >  >>> >> and that did *NOT* change anything.
> >  >>> >>
> >  >>> >> Ideas?
> >  >>> >>
> >  >>> >
> >  >>> > BIOS or UEFI booting?
> >  >>>
> >  >>> UEFI boot.
> >  >>>
> >  >>
> >  >> So no change to \efi\boot\bootx64.efi (or whatever you are booting?
> >  >>
> >  >> Can you get the output of 'show' in the boot loader?
> >  >>
> >  >> Also, is there a way you can try one or two of the versions in 
> >  >> between
> >  >> 346487 and 347007 to try to narrow the changes down a bit?
> >  >>
> >  >> Warner
> >  >
> >  > show output in 4 screenshots:
> >  > https://www.lerctr.org/~ler/FreeBSD/NO-BOOT/
> >  >
> >  > What's the easiest way to try some of the other revisions?  And which
> >  > would
> >  > you suggest?  (I'm set up for meta-mode).
> >  working with Kyle Evans on IRC, and backing /boot/loader.efi to
> >  r346487
> >  lets the system boot
> >  normally.
> > 
> > >>>
> > >>> OK. I noticed vfs.root.mountfrom wasn't set. Can you see if it's set
> > >>> in
> > >>> your successfully booted system with kenv?
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> 2 things: r346675 still works, and vfs.root.mountfrom *IS* set.
> > > r346879 does *NOT* work.  Stepping back to r346759
> > r346759 *WORKS*.  So it's r346879 that breaks it.
> >
>
> Hi,
>
> Head back to -head and try applying [0] -- this block was accidentally
> reintroduced, and I wouldn't be surprised if the double-initialization
> has some weird side effect.
>
> [0] https://people.freebsd.org/~kevans/loader.diff

To round things off: this patch was confirmed working and committed as r347023.
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Re: Rotating (efi) framebuffer

2019-05-02 Thread Rodney W. Grimes
> Hi
> 
> I have a Lenovo Ideapad where the screen is rotated 90 degrees and I
> can't rotate it to landscape mode until I'm in X. How many of you are in
> the same situation and would like a fix? Seeing how development is going
> with small (tiny) computers it will probably be more and more common
> with ultra portables having a "phone screen" which most likely is in
> portrait mode by default. This also applies to embedded and home brew /
> prototype devices.
> 
> It would certainly be nice if we could have a boot time parameter that
> could rotate the framebuffer (just as a data point, I'm pretty sure
> Linux can do this). How many would be interested in this? Is there
> anyone working on this atm? Not sure I will have the time to develop
> this all of my own but thought I'd check the interest at least. Perhaps
> a GSoC project?

Yes please.

> Johannes
-- 
Rod Grimes rgri...@freebsd.org
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