Re: [fpc-pascal] Working on a new way to educate people about pascal

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On 28/12/2022 07:12, Christo Crause via fpc-pascal wrote:
On Tue, Dec 27, 2022 at 6:47 PM Anthony Walter via fpc-pascal 
> wrote:


My idea is to implement a web page system where syntax highlight
code is presented like in the Lazarus IDE, and special links are
peppered through and explanation of how and why Pascal works by
using some example programs. When the user highlights the special
link, the relevant source code is highlighted in the syntax window.
This then hopefully allows people to understand a bit more about
pascal by pairing the explanations with lines of source code.

Let me know if you think this approach has any merit or if you think
my guide could be altered to be a bit more clean in places. As a
reminder, this page is a wiki, so you cna submit edits to me by
clicking the edit link at the top of the page. I am able to see and
merge your edits.


I like the concept implemented in this guide.  A small problem I noticed 
is when the source code snippet linked to is not visible, clicking the 
link does not move the code snippet into view. This is obviously a 
tricky situation since moving the code into view may require shifting 
the rest of the document, which may not be desirable.


Explaining the layout and structure of a Pascal program using an example 
is a good idea. However, the example topic is quite advanced so a 
non-programmer would probably be completely lost regarding the purpose 
of the code itself.  Programmers from other languages may also not 
understand the concept of a form or the Application instance.  As 
suggested, perhaps the example itself should be simple enough so that a 
non-programmer can understand the intention of the code.


And having seen a bunch of references to SQL, well my thoughts could be 
described as "unprintable".


IMNSHO SQL/Relational seriously breaches Einstein's dictum "make things 
as simple as possible (but no simpler)". Relational is TOO SIMPLE to be 
a serious database, which makes SQL seriously incomprehensible, and the 
whole combo misses the sweet spot by a country light year.


If you know me, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about :-)

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: [fpc-pascal] Working on a new way to educate people about pascal

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On 29/12/2022 13:34, Tomas Hajny via fpc-pascal wrote:

On 29 December 2022 13:31:57 +0100, Anthony Walter via fpc-pascal 
 wrote:


Hello Anthony,
  .
  .

I suggest you either brush up on these subjects or refrain from scolding
people on subjects with which you have no practical experience.


You asked for feedback and you got it. Please, stop attacking others who 
provided what you'd asked for. Obviously, it's up to you whether you consider 
the feedback, or not, or whether you agree to it, or not, but arguing this way 
makes no sense and doesn't belong here for sure, because it isn't related to 
either FPC or Pascal.

Tomas
(one of FPC mailing lists moderators)

Apologies for throwing my two-pennorth in as well, but PLEASE QUOTE WHAT 
YOU'RE REPLYING TO.


List netiquette is important, please look at what others are doing, and 
do likewise. Otherwise it gets very difficult to follow what is going on.


Cheers,
Wol

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Re: [fpc-pascal] Working on a new way to educate people about pascal

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On 29/12/2022 15:43, wkitty42--- via fpc-pascal wrote:
turned out they were doing basic SQL queries for these reports to get 
"views" of the data that wasn't available in the specific reports i had 
been tasked to write... things were headed into a more "freeform" 
format... they basically needed databases with specific information that 
they could draw information from...


it was a huge mindset change... almost like having grown up doing pascal 
and asm and then trying to figure out LISP on your own in the same way 
you taught yourself pascal and asm...


I've spent pretty much my entire programming career working with 
end-users, who did much of their own programming. Imho that's the best 
way to do it - a couple of trained programmers who keep the users on the 
straight and narrow.


Unfortunately, that's not the way most companies want to work - to the 
massive detriment to said companies as users are forced into the 
straight-jacket of systems that don't work and have been designed by 
people who don't understand the job ...


Can you imagine those users writing COMPLEX SQL queries? My database 
career didn't *need* complex queries, the database handled it all ... 
something relational is completely incapable of :-(


Cheers,
Wol
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Re: [fpc-pascal] Working on a new way to educate people about pascal

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On 31/12/2022 08:37, Steve Litt via fpc-pascal wrote:

Anthony Walter via fpc-pascal said on Thu, 29 Dec 2022 07:31:57 -0500


@youngman

"I'm a database guy with maybe 30 years experience, I'm new to SQL and
oh my god is it an over-complicated monster ..."


I'll say this: It certainly doesn't help that there are different
variations of SQL.


:-)

Well, there are plenty different variations of English. And the real 
English (that is, what we speak in England) isn't even one language! 
It's several different languages that (for the most part) share similar 
grammar and vocabulary.


If that's not a problem, why should the dialects of SQL be a problem. 
After all, we have a decent dictionary. It's called the Internet :-)


Cheers,
Wol

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Re: [fpc-pascal] Working on a new way to educate people about pascal

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On 31/12/2022 00:41, Dennis Lee Bieber via fpc-pascal wrote:

Well, I understand it was originally called SEQL, E for English, but



SEQUEL - Structured English QUEry Langauge.

At the time SQL was being developed, every database system had its own
proprietary programming language. Often these required macro preprocessors
to turn embedded queries into "native" programming language source.

The relational database model was originally a "view" of how to access
databases, be they hierarchical (everything was a tree structure descending
from the top-most database record) or network (lots of bidirectional
circular linked lists connecting records to each other).


Hmmm. So that explains a lot. "Relational" sounds like it was never 
actually meant to be a database. And it shows ...


SEQUEL - by its very nature - must therefore encapsulate a lot of what 
should really be in the database but, because of the laws of "least 
common denominator", it has to provide itself because it can't guarantee 
it's in the database.


So we're stuck with the worst of both worlds. A database that was never 
intended to be one. And a language that is a massive layering violation 
containing loads of functionality that should not be there ...


:-( :-( :-(

Cheers,
Wol
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