Re: [fpc-pascal] Fwd: What to do to get new users
On 10/16/24 6:00 AM, Hairy Pixels via fpc-pascal wrote: FPC is not keeping up with trends in the industry which new programmings want despite all the older programmers who are settled in their ways. Even if there is a market for Lazarus type apps people in 2024 don’t want to use a massive legacy IDE and prefer better tools like VSCode. What trends, exactly? Can you be more specific? If you want to use FPC these days what does a new user do? If they follow tutorials on YouTube they expect to have some VSCode package installed easily and start working that way. FPC of course has no official support for this and it’s hard to get my language server and it’s buggy due to CodeTools (a user created project with no official backing AFAIK). If you think that way, then maybe create your own VSCode plugin for Pascal. What "official backing" do you expect, exactly? There's no such thing as "official backing". There are things that users care enough about to donate their development time and work on them. That's how open source works. How is it CodeTools' fault that your language server is buggy? Did you submit merge requests with fixes? Did they get rejected? As for the language I think for GUI apps programmers don’t need or want a manual memory managed language like Pascal and would prefer something like C#. In general the ease of programming is not there in Pascal compared to other languages and the community is extremely resistant to change. Do you have a garbage collection proposal for Pascal? Free Pascal has a JVM target that supports garbage collection and pretty much nobody is using it. Why do you think that is? I don’t think it’s hard to see Pascal are simply going to get old and die at this point. I even had an old time programmer contact me and say how much more productive he is with Swift when writing macOS apps now so quit using FPC. There’s lots of reason for this so FPC would need to be actively learning and making changes to keep pace. One developer moving from one language to another is pretty anecdotal. IMO, Swift is a pretty decent language, but there's nothing entirely original or amazing for Object Pascal developers. It's an improvement over C, C++, Objective C, etc, but not so much over Object Pascal. What is it about Swift, that makes your old time friend more productive when writing macOS apps? Is it really the language, or is it the Apple IDE and framework? If it's the latter, there's a cost to that, your app isn't multiplatform, you need to rewrite it, if you want to support other platforms. Apple has no incentive in making that process easy. Too many details to go into but there’s myriad problems that would need to be addressed. Unlike others, your post is so negative and so vague and light in details it almost looks like trolling. Best regards, Nikolay -- Forwarded message - From: Rainer Stratmann via fpc-pascal Date: Oct 16, 2024 at 6:07:58 AM Subject: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users To: FPC mailing list Cc: Rainer Stratmann At the Lazarus Congress in Cologne in October 2024, it ended up being very interesting. An important question came up. Why are no new users coming to Lazarus/Freepascal? Why do we find it so difficult? How can we get new, younger users to come to us? ___ fpc-pascal maillist -fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
On 10/16/24 2:07 AM, Rainer Stratmann via fpc-pascal wrote: At the Lazarus Congress in Cologne in October 2024, it ended up being very interesting. An important question came up. Why are no new users coming to Lazarus/Freepascal? Why do we find it so difficult? How can we get new, younger users to come to us? The same questions came up over a year ago at a Freepascal/Lazarus meeting in Backnang. I have some answers: - The official Freepascal website doesn't look like the project is very lively. Maybe another redesign is necessary? Unfortunately, good compiler developers often aren't very good at web design, and someone has to contribute this. Look at the gcc or the llvm site, it's even worse. :) https://gcc.gnu.org/ https://llvm.org/ Or maybe, it's better? I don't know. Maybe explain what do you mean by "doesn't look like the project is very lively". Maybe we should post updates more often? - Lazarus looks very complicated with its many windows. And it is also relatively complicated to understand and use. There are too many options that are too nested. Kinda agree, at least for beginners and for small programs. How about the console IDE? I sometimes prefer it for small programs. But for large programs, nothing beats Lazarus. - Crosscompiling: The compiler file name is hidden in Tools - Settings instead of in the project settings. I found this out after some time. Since it was nowhere to be found in the project settings I first thought it might be hard- coded! - Linux: All relevant files (executable files, configuration files, source code, etc.) are scattered all over the Linux system. This is very complicated again. If Lazarus/Freepascal were a Linux system program it would make sense. But it is NOT a Linux system program. The chance that it will be used by several users on a multi-user system is close to zero. Free Pascal is exactly as "scattered" all over the Linux system, as gcc, clang, rust and pretty much any other compiler. How is this exactly a problem, since all major distros ship fpc as an official package and it is used to build other packages as well? It's not exactly difficult to do e.g. on Fedora: sudo dnf install fpc or sudo dnf install lazarus Even strange distros like NixOS ship fpc. I'm sorry, but I don't get it, how is this a problem? Maybe for people who are new and want to get into FPC development and want to build it from source? But definitely not for new users. - Fpcupdeluxe: A good idea. But it doesn't work. I have tried to install an AVR crosscompiler on a Linux system. Fatal: Can't find unit Infodrwf used by Project1. And ‘Project1’ does not use any unit at all. I've never used it, so I can't comment. But if you think it's a good idea, you should contribute patches to make it work. That's how open source works. Sadly, IIRC, the person who originally created this project died a few years ago, so the project probably needs new contributors? - For a new installation of Lazarus: The most important quick start icons have to be configured again at the bottom of the source code window. So that fast and smooth work is possible. Instead of placing them like this from the start. The many confusing windows I have already mentioned above. I tend to agree that Lazarus is a little bit too complex and convoluted for beginners. As good as Freepascal is. The situation described above is a brake pad and sooner or later leads to a dead end. My tip is to put all the required files in one directory. This also makes it easier to install an installation on the different systems. Only one ZIP file is then required. And you can even install it without internet access. Still don't get it. Use your distro's package manager. If your distro doesn't package fpc, then become a packager and contribute fpc as a package. This way, fpc-compiled programs can also be added to the distro. Best regards, Nikolay Translated with www.deepl.com Auf dem Lazarus Kongress im Oktober 2024 in Köln war es am Ende sehr interessant. Eine wichtige Frage kam auf. Warum kommen keine neuen Anwender zu Lazarus/Freepascal? Warum tun wir uns damit so schwer? Wie können wir es schaffen, dass neue, jüngere Anwender zu uns kommen. Die gleichen Fragen kamen auch schon vor über einem Jahr bei einem Freepascal/ Lazarus-Treffen in Backnang auf. Ich habe einige Antworten: - Die offizielle Freepascal Webseite sieht nicht so aus, als wäre das Projekt sehr lebendig. - Lazarus sieht mit seinen vielen Fenstern sehr kompliziert aus. Und es ist auch relativ kompliziert zu verstehen und zu bedienen. Es gibt zu viele Optionen, die zu sehr verschachtelt sind. - Crosscompiling: Der Compiler Dateiname ist in Werkzeuge - Einstellungen anstatt in den Projekteinstellungen versteckt. Das habe ich nach einiger Zeit herausgefunden. Da er nirgendwo in den Projekeinstellungen zu finden war, dachte ich zuerst er sei vielleicht fest einkompiliert! - Linux: Alle relevanten Dateien (ausführbare Da
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
Hello all, I raise my hand to this subject because I am one of those who deliberately opted against Lazarus. I have used Delphi for many years (up to version 2007) and considered to switch to Lazarus, but finally decided not use it for my project. This is not a well-elaborated statement, but just a brief description from my point of view. I hope it is somewhat appropriate, otherwise just ignore it! :) I will only point out a few negative things which I think might keep also other people from using Lazarus because I think nowadays programmers are quite spoiled ... Firstly, Pascal/Delphi in general seems to have a pretty shopworn image. I think many people consider it not trendy, not contemporary, rather old-fashioned (DOS / Windows 95 style), not fit for the future. But I personally do like at least Delphi for development of traditional Windows desktop applications. Other quite profane things I noticed at a quite early stage when I tried out Lazarus: - IDE crashes from time to time - a bit unstable/clumsy look-and-feel - does not feel very lightweight, but a bit clunky at large - big exe files ... - orphaned/incomplete components/parts - errors in the source code - seems to be more for "tinkerers" than for everybody - In other words: Who is the audience? Who uses Lazarus? Of course my impression is shaped by the experience I've made with Delphi and the expectation that Lazarus might serve as a direct replacement for Delphi. Notwithstanding the above, the main reason why I don't want to use Lazarus for my project is, that finally it was decided to move away from the traditional Windows desktop application towards a web-based/browser-based cross-platform approach. By the way, I like the webpage of Lazarus! ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
On Oct 16, 2024 at 9:46:05 PM, Nikolay Nikolov via fpc-pascal < fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org> wrote: > I don't know, it could be the Nim to JS compiler, or the fact that the > previous plugin developer didn't use the LSP protocol, but direct > integration instead. But I don't like the whole idea of an IDE, written in > JavaScript. It's horribly bloated and difficult to debug. > Agree it’s a web app and you can feel it. That’s why I use Sublime Text (an excellent high performance editor but hard to configure it’s JSON settings) but you must use VSCode for a debugger on macOS unless you want to use Lazarus and that editor. > The LSP protocol is fine, though. I like the idea, it allows integration > with many different IDEs and editors. Sublime Text is just one example, > there are many people who use Vim, Neovim, Emacs, Helix and many others. I > also think it's a nice and quick way to improve the console IDE by adding > an LSP client. But I have a huge backlog of things to do, so I haven't > started on this, yet. > > When I learn a new compiler these days I download the installer, run it, > then check VSCode or Sublime Text for extensions to install in one click. > If that doesn't work I probably just give up because I idon’t have time to > be playing around and there’s myriad of new languages to play around with > these days. > Yeah, it's tempting with its store of extensions. Too bad most of it is > crap. And it's not fully open source. Sorry, I use it at work, and just > don't like it. Anyhow, there's nothing wrong in developing an VS Code > plugin for Pascal. Anybody interested can try to do that. Most of the work > is probably fixing the LSP server, as it does most of the work. This way, > the extension itself can be kept minimal. > The LLDB extension works well and many others. Sure it’s filled full of crap but the highly rated packages tend to work well. It’s fast to install and lightweight compared to Lazarus and Visual Studio or the likes. It's wish it wasn’t Electron but that’s why Microsoft chose for cross platform and they are making monthly updates so apparently it’s worked for them. ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] Fwd: What to do to get new users
On Oct 16, 2024 at 4:44:35 PM, Nikolay Nikolov via fpc-pascal < fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org> wrote: > > On 10/16/24 6:00 AM, Hairy Pixels via fpc-pascal wrote: > > FPC is not keeping up with trends in the industry which new programmings > want despite all the older programmers who are settled in their ways. Even > if there is a market for Lazarus type apps people in 2024 don’t want to use > a massive legacy IDE and prefer better tools like VSCode. > > What trends, exactly? Can you be more specific? > The biggest thing I see stopping new programmers from using Pascal is some form of automatic memory management. ARC, garbage collector, smart pointers or even RAII. That right there is a killer if you ask me. Even people who want to high performance will use C++ instead of Pascal for this reason. If you want to use FPC these days what does a new user do? If they follow > tutorials on YouTube they expect to have some VSCode package installed > easily and start working that way. FPC of course has no official support > for this and it’s hard to get my language server and it’s buggy due to > CodeTools (a user created project with no official backing AFAIK). > > If you think that way, then maybe create your own VSCode plugin for > Pascal. What "official backing" do you expect, exactly? There's no such > thing as "official backing". There are things that users care enough about > to donate their development time and work on them. That's how open source > works. How is it CodeTools' fault that your language server is buggy? Did > you submit merge requests with fixes? Did they get rejected? > It’s no one's fault there’s just not enough people working on these things. I tried to make a language server and a plugin even for VSCode but it’s hard to use and not clear for new users. Sorry I dont’ have the time either. As for the language I think for GUI apps programmers don’t need or want a > manual memory managed language like Pascal and would prefer something like > C#. In general the ease of programming is not there in Pascal compared to > other languages and the community is extremely resistant to change. > > Do you have a garbage collection proposal for Pascal? > > Free Pascal has a JVM target that supports garbage collection and pretty > much nobody is using it. Why do you think that is? > I don’t even know how to use that! I assume it’s not something you just enable on any program. I’ve never seen programs adopt it. I don’t think it’s hard to see Pascal are simply going to get old and die > at this point. I even had an old time programmer contact me and say how > much more productive he is with Swift when writing macOS apps now so quit > using FPC. There’s lots of reason for this so FPC would need to be actively > learning and making changes to keep pace. > > One developer moving from one language to another is pretty anecdotal. > IMO, Swift is a pretty decent language, but there's nothing entirely > original or amazing for Object Pascal developers. It's an improvement over > C, C++, Objective C, etc, but not so much over Object Pascal. What is it > about Swift, that makes your old time friend more productive when writing > macOS apps? Is it really the language, or is it the Apple IDE and > framework? If it's the latter, there's a cost to that, your app isn't > multiplatform, you need to rewrite it, if you want to support other > platforms. Apple has no incentive in making that process easy. > Swift has a ton of features that Pascal doesn’t have which the kind UI apps which Apple supports. We could spend hours going over everything but I’m just saying a new programmer would look at Swift vs Pascal and choose Swift. The bigger problem is of course support for Apples frameworks. Once the platform chooses a language like Apple does it kind of kills everything else. Even popular languages like C# don’t compete so I don’t expect Pascal to come out ahead her either. > Too many details to go into but there’s myriad problems that would need to > be addressed. > > Unlike others, your post is so negative and so vague and light in details > it almost looks like trolling. > Sorry to be negative I’m just sounding the alarm. I’ve watched the community dwindle over the years and people move on and new programmers adopt new languages. It’s clearly going in the wrong direction as noted by the original post. Am I wrong? Best regards, > > Nikolay > > > -- Forwarded message - > From: Rainer Stratmann via fpc-pascal > Date: Oct 16, 2024 at 6:07:58 AM > Subject: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users > To: FPC mailing list > Cc: Rainer Stratmann > > > At the Lazarus Congress in Cologne in October 2024, it ended up being very > interesting. An important question came up. > > Why are no new users coming to Lazarus/Freepascal? > Why do we find it so difficult? > How can we get new, younger users to come to us? > > ___ > fpc-pascal maillist - > fpc-pascal@li
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
I am cross posting this to the Lazarus list, since some of this relates to Lazarus. On 16/10/2024 01:07, Rainer Stratmann via fpc-pascal wrote: - Lazarus looks very complicated with its many windows. And it is also relatively complicated to understand and use. There are too many options that are too nested. About the options: This is 2 fold. 1) The count 2) The presentation "Count": Of course (assuming that all those involved in the decision making can be convinced) they can be reduced. Then existing users will just have to live with the loss of their favourite setting. Or be forced to install (included or 3rd party) add ons. Or worst, leave. "Presentation": Oh, yeah, that could be a lot better. Including an "advanced" mode, to reduce what is immediately show to a newby. And Including a wizard. Just needs someone to do the work. Some part is bound to the underlaying structure where options are stored => that makes it more work to change stuff. - Crosscompiling: The compiler file name is hidden in Tools - Settings instead of in the project settings. If it is cross compiling (using same compiler version), and if the compiler is installed (as cross compiler): Project Options > Compiler opts > Config and Target - For a new installation of Lazarus: The most important quick start icons have to be configured again at the bottom of the source code window. So that fast and smooth work is possible. Instead of placing them like this from the start. The many confusing windows I have already mentioned above. You mean the editor toolbar? I don't know if it has ever been discussed, if/what the default config for it should be. Am Mittwoch, 16. Oktober 2024, 04:00:30 CEST schrieb DougC via fpc-pascal: I don't think the situations are vary similar, so I don't think the comparison is useful. I mainly wanted to say that it is possible to do so without extensive marketing. Linux is another example. Linux does not spend a huge amount of money in marketing. It is widely used because it runs stable and for some other reasons. However, Linux is marketed by countless people blogging and making videos, as well as mentioning in PC related press/magazines. IMHO its 50/50 The impression a user gets when using the project can decide if they stay or turn away. But it does rarely bring them to the project to begin with. And, the impression is not just what they explore on their own, but what help they have to explore. Not just language but also environment. E.g., while I still prefer to search for text explanations of how to get an app to do what I need, I would guess that many people want a quick video showing them. Yet, of course, no amount of help will change if the environment feels familiar or not. On the other hand, we don't want to pay for that by driving away old users, so we must preserve (at least as option) their preferred functionality and presentation. But all that does not bring anyone new. It does at best help to keep them, once they are there. Word needs to be out, and it needs to be out on all channels/media, and as much as possible. Hence IMHO: 50/50. And of course, it isn't just agreeing on this. We obviously don't have many people for the marketing/social-media/... part. But we also are limited on the implementation side. Let's say we could find agreement on how to improve the editor-toolbar => then who does it? (initial changes, maintenance, options, ... not all needed for the toolbar, but for other changes maybe...) ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
On 10/16/24 3:14 PM, Christo Crause via fpc-pascal wrote: On Wed, Oct 16, 2024 at 2:12 AM Rainer Stratmann via fpc-pascal wrote: - Fpcupdeluxe: A good idea. But it doesn't work. I have tried to install an AVR crosscompiler on a Linux system. Fatal: Can't find unit Infodrwf used by Project1. And ‘Project1’ does not use any unit at all. This is due to the default debug option that enables the "Display line numbers in run-time error backtraces". This option is not supported on the embedded targets. To disable this in Lazarus go to: Project > Project options > Compielr Options > Debugging I made the compiler ignore the option and print a warning on these platforms: https://gitlab.com/freepascal.org/fpc/source/-/commit/bdeb161d85e590f36fb0b5eb88c2cd1e3f1943ef Please test. Nikolay ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
Am Mittwoch, 16. Oktober 2024, 11:20:35 CEST schrieb Martin Frb via fpc- pascal: > If it is cross compiling (using same compiler version), and if the > compiler is installed (as cross compiler): > Project Options > Compiler opts > Config and Target But there is not the compiler itself. If you have different targets (for example i386 and avr embedded) I think you need different fpc compiler versions. > You mean the editor toolbar? > I don't know if it has ever been discussed, if/what the default config > for it should be. http://85.114.142.209:18080/uploads/x_Lazarus_with_icons.png What you can see here at the bottom is what I called shortcut Icons. If you want to compile the whole project you simply click on the button instead of searching it in the menu. That is one step to make it easier for all kinds of users. https://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Screenshots Look at all this screenshots. This userfriendly icons are configured nowhere. I did not see them by now. ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
Am Mittwoch, 16. Oktober 2024, 11:07:25 CEST schrieb Nikolay Nikolov via fpc- pascal: > Or maybe, it's better? I don't know. Maybe explain what do you mean by > "doesn't look like the project is very lively". Maybe we should post > updates more often? It all comes to the point of easy beginning. For example if you look for Linux AMD64/Intel 64/x86_64 and want to download Freepascal. You go to download. Then there are all kinds of various systems. In my opinion it would be better to put the most popular systems on top. This is Windows and Linux. So you have to search AMD64/Intel 64/x86_64 and click on Linux. Then if you click on SourceForge again you have a big confusing list of things you can download. At least for a beginner who wants to start coding. And that is the topic here: What to do to get new users? If you click on Hungary/Canada this situation is not much better. And if you finally got the right Package and were able to install it what do you have? Only the compiler. This method is suitable for the experts of the experts. But not at all for a beginner. > Kinda agree, at least for beginners and for small programs. How about > the console IDE? I sometimes prefer it for small programs. But for large > programs, nothing beats Lazarus. Console IDE :-) Then better Lazarus. > Free Pascal is exactly as "scattered" all over the Linux system, as gcc, > clang, rust and pretty much any other compiler. How is this exactly a > problem, since all major distros ship fpc as an official package and it > is used to build other packages as well? It's not exactly difficult to > do e.g. on Fedora: In my view that is a huge problem. You defend it simply by saying other programs do it, too. You rely on the distro in relation to updates. I am very experienced in making software that my clients understand. If I would throw the software in front of my clients like this I had no chance to sell it to them and to survive. I know exactly what I'm talking about. If there is an Update of the software more than 100 clients can press a button and in 10 seconds at the latest they have the newest version. I'm putting it on a golden platter because they don't even have to pay for it at the moment. Because I see it also as an advantage for me to learn from the clients needs. And it is a very big advantage to have a fast feedback. Instead of waiting years for the newest version. With one ZIP File that contains all necessary files you can have a similar effect. > Even strange distros like NixOS ship fpc. I'm sorry, but I don't get it, > how is this a problem? Maybe for people who are new and want to get into > FPC development and want to build it from source? But definitely not for > new users. May be it has changed (a little bit), but at least in the past it did not work smoothly "out of the box". I am happy if I get Freepascal/Lazarus to work on my Debian distro. And then I cut the internet access and don't touch it anymore for years. Because I am afraid that something goes wrong and I have to start the whole process again. It would definitely be better for understanding if everything is in one directory and not scattered over the whole system. > > I tend to agree that Lazarus is a little bit too complex and convoluted > for beginners. :-) > Still don't get it. Use your distro's package manager. If your distro > doesn't package fpc, then become a packager and contribute fpc as a > package. This way, fpc-compiled programs can also be added to the distro. ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
On Wed, Oct 16, 2024 at 2:12 AM Rainer Stratmann via fpc-pascal < fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org> wrote: > > - Fpcupdeluxe: A good idea. But it doesn't work. I have tried to install > an > AVR crosscompiler on a Linux system. Fatal: Can't find unit Infodrwf used > by > Project1. And ‘Project1’ does not use any unit at all. > This is due to the default debug option that enables the "Display line numbers in run-time error backtraces". This option is not supported on the embedded targets. To disable this in Lazarus go to: Project > Project options > Compielr Options > Debugging ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
On Wed, 16 Oct 2024 at 00:16, Rainer Stratmann via fpc-pascal wrote: > > At the Lazarus Congress in Cologne in October 2024, it ended up being very > interesting. Promoting the event better might help! I did not know about it at all. > Why are no new users coming to Lazarus/Freepascal? Pascal is not trendy any more. It should be but it isn't. > How can we get new, younger users to come to us? Some more visible high-profile Linux apps implemented in it would certainly help. If they are some, get them to state that they are. If there are not, then maybe it needs some. One of the highest-project single Kylix (Delphi for Linux) projects I ever saw languishes in unmaintained obscurity: XPde. https://kylixapps.narod.ru/ https://sourceforge.net/projects/xpde.berlios/ Picking that up, porting it from Kylix to Lazarus, and simply sharing the result, without updating anything, would be a good start, IMHO. > - Linux: All relevant files (executable files, configuration files, source > code, > etc.) are scattered all over the Linux system. This is very complicated again. > If Lazarus/Freepascal were a Linux system program it would make sense. But it > is NOT a Linux system program. The chance that it will be used by several > users on a multi-user system is close to zero. Good gods, no! No no no. Keep it plain and stock. Saying that, the macOS version is a bombsite and needs to be fixed. I have an old version and it's so complicated I do not know how to upgrade it. But, if you want a simpler and better distribution/packaging model, then why is neither FreePascal nor Lazarus on either the Snap or Flatpak app stores? It should be. You should fix that. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 227612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] Fwd: What to do to get new users
On 16/10/2024 13:49, Hairy Pixels via fpc-pascal wrote: I’ve watched the community dwindle over the years and people move on and new programmers adopt new languages. It’s clearly going in the wrong direction as noted by the original post. Am I wrong? You may be wrong... I don't have the numbers for FPC, but Lazarus has an ever increasing amount of downloads. (Numbers for Windows, you can find others yourself) https://sourceforge.net/projects/lazarus/files/Lazarus%20Windows%2064%20bits/stats/timeline?dates=2004-07-18+to+2024-10-16 On Linux you have to consider that many distros include it. And on top, you have other downloads, such as from git directly (FpcUpDeluxe). That said, it could always grow faster. And hence this is **not** a "We are doing so great, lets lean back and just watch" statement.___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
On 16/10/2024 15:29, Rainer Stratmann via fpc-pascal wrote: Am Mittwoch, 16. Oktober 2024, 11:20:35 CEST schrieb Martin Frb via fpc- pascal: If it is cross compiling (using same compiler version), and if the compiler is installed (as cross compiler): Project Options > Compiler opts > Config and Target But there is not the compiler itself. If you have different targets (for example i386 and avr embedded) I think you need different fpc compiler versions. Define "Compiler". You use one and the same fpc.exe. But you need a different ppc.exe. All those ppc live in the same folder. And they are all called by the same fpc.exe, depending on the options given to that fpc.exe. Of course, for that they must be installed as cross compilers. So they also share the fpc.cfg. But the all have their own ppu and o files. You mean the editor toolbar? I don't know if it has ever been discussed, if/what the default config for it should be. http://85.114.142.209:18080/uploads/x_Lazarus_with_icons.png Yeah, editor toolbar => you get that name, if you click the "configure" option. The toolbar can be on top or bottom. What you can see here at the bottom is what I called shortcut Icons. If you want to compile the whole project you simply click on the button instead of searching it in the menu. That is one step to make it easier for all kinds of users. Generally a matter of personal preference. I use a key combo, For me the toolbar is lost screen space. But, I don't say my preference has to be the defining one. Since it can be disabled, IMHO it may be there to start with. As for which buttons should be on there by default, I have only a basic opinion (since I don't use it). But for people using toolbars, there is (both can be configured) - the "IDE coolbar" (toolbar in the main IDE window, where the menu is) - "Editor toolbar" Since you can have many editor windows open, and each of them shows you the same "editor toolbar", IMHO that toolbar should have (as default) only buttons relating to the current editor (or the editor window / the tabs in the editor window). https://pasteboard.co/8CdEFiy4cZiy.png has 3 editor windows => 3 times the toolbar (not much on it in my case, but that is not the point) Functions such as "compile the whole project" don't relate to a single Editor. Showing them multiply times (for each editor window) is imho not a proper default. But of course fine for anyone who likes it. https://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Screenshots Look at all this screenshots. This userfriendly icons are configured nowhere. I did not see them by now. Well, I am not against having them visible as default. Or having a different set of them. Though I don't call that decision on my own. - Find out on the Lazarus list (or bug tracker), what would be accepted - Within that, provide a patch. Or try to find someone who will. That is how change happens. ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
Am Mittwoch, 16. Oktober 2024, 15:09:47 CEST schrieb Liam Proven via fpc- pascal: > On Wed, 16 Oct 2024 at 00:16, Rainer Stratmann via fpc-pascal > > wrote: > > At the Lazarus Congress in Cologne in October 2024, it ended up being very > > interesting. > > Promoting the event better might help! I did not know about it at all. The official freepascal page would be a good place to promote it. ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
On 10/16/24 4:57 PM, Hairy Pixels via fpc-pascal wrote: On Oct 16, 2024 at 8:50:21 PM, Ștefan-Iulian Alecu via fpc-pascal wrote: 4. a proper VSCode extension (we can include Vim and Emacs there too, but the main focus is VSCode) with all the bells and whistles more established extensions have. I know we would all want to stick to Lazarus and we all know that VSCode is bloated, but we have to accept the reality that people do use it and it is really popular. Survive, adapt, overcome. :-) OmniPascal was a nice attempt, but it's dead and also closed source; 6. an independent language server (no, cutting Lazarus' guts doesn't count, not until people can easily install precompiled versions) that can be used with the VSCode extension; I have a language server I made and VSCode extension but it’s hard to use and buggy (mainly because CodeTools) but for other reasons that are my own fault. I never got the package working well enough to download binaries and run smoothly. Personally I use Sublime Text but I use VSCode for the debugger. I have some interest in implementing a language server client in the fp console IDE, so I have some interest in helping with the language server as well. However, I'm quite busy with other projects right now, so I don't know when I'll have the time to work on that. Maybe in a few (6-12) months? I also have some experience from my day job on making a VS Code extension for the Nim language (you can see my commits in the Nim language server here https://github.com/nim-lang/langserver/graphs/contributors and for the Nim VS code extension here https://github.com/nim-lang/vscode-nim) and I can definitely say VS Code is horrible crap. It's buggy as hell, new versions break API compatibility all the time and it makes it look like it's your language extension's fault. From my experience, the FPC community is lucky to have something as good and stable as Lazarus. The IDE experience for Nim in VS Code sucks so much and the only reason people tolerate it, is because, there's no alternative IDE for Nim at all. Nikolay ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
I have always found that the self-contained nature of Pascal/Delphi executables is a big advantage over other language systems. Just copy the file and run it, even on a system that has never seen a Pascal/Delphi executable before. If we could do that with the IDE/compiler it would be magic! The install process is far from that goal right now. Doug C. Portable Lazarus would just kick ass. g. ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
The question I have is, if you’re a new programmer not wanting to make a cross platform app what are building with Pascal? It’s still a good low level compiled language and you can do things like SDL and games with it but people are using C++ for that mainly and think FPC lags behind in some areas like smart pointers and RAII. I am definitely not saying it isn't a good low level language. That is one of the things I use to promote the language. However, you are right in that we should invest in being more than "the free Delphi alternative". Great, you're attracting 10 people from the Delphi side, but for the average shmuck they don't know what Delphi is or what it's about. Lazarus can still market itself as a RAD editor, that's what it is, but I don't know how you can market Pascal in general. Are we forever destined to be the old GUI language, akin to VB6? We have to think about how we can sell ourselves, otherwise nobody's going to consider us. Or maybe they're a student, in which case... /shrug -- Stefan-Iulian Alecu ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
Op 16/10/2024 om 06:53 schreef Alexey T. via fpc-pascal: - Linux: All relevant files (executable files, configuration files, source code,etc.) are scattered all over the Linux system. This is very complicated again. This is important part. I agree. Some FPC binaries are in /usr/bin. Data files are here, src files are there. Bad! We need one folder of FPC in ~/fpc33 (version suffix is optional): Afaik the FPC installer script already suggest a location in the home dir if you execute it with /usr/lib non writable, and it does so for at least two decades. ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
Am Mittwoch, 16. Oktober 2024, 16:16:45 CEST schrieb Marco van de Voort via fpc-pascal: > > I can't see any contradiction here. If we do things better, everyone > > benefits. > You need the new users to stick, not just to try it. Specially if you > have to do a lot of trouble to increase the numbers only a bit. This is > different from the really popular projects where small efforts can huge > changes in usage. > > It is not bad to work at release engineering and default behavior of the > IDE, but it should be more focussed on what can be done with limited > means without changing course, rather than wild new plans. It is not that much work to appear more userfriendly. Often it are little things. But when they not work you got stuck. ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
On 16/10/2024 18:06, Rainer Stratmann via fpc-pascal wrote: Am Mittwoch, 16. Oktober 2024, 15:54:20 CEST schrieb Martin Frb via fpc- pascal: Define "Compiler". You use one and the same fpc.exe. But you need a different ppc.exe. All those ppc live in the same folder. And they are all called by the same fpc.exe, depending on the options given to that fpc.exe. Of course, for that they must be installed as cross compilers. So they also share the fpc.cfg. But the all have their own ppu and o files. That means fpc.exe calls another (more specific) compiler? Yes. You can directly configure ppc___.exe instead. But there is rarely a benefit in it. Btw, on your initial statement: You can also set a completely different compiler (e.g. diff version) in the project options. Under "Compiler commands", in the edit "Compiler", which is preset to "$(CompPath)" // Which despite it names returns the exe https://wiki.freepascal.org/IDE_Macros_in_paths_and_filenames#Paths_and_Parts Yeah, editor toolbar => you get that name, if you click the "configure" option. The toolbar can be on top or bottom. However, this has to be done from scratch every time you install Lazarus instead of having it in the basic installation. That sounds like a bug to me. Unless you mean a really new install, not an upgrade? I have not tested this one (as I do not use it), but normally, if you upgrade the config is kept (in your primary conf dir / default ~/.lazarus ). Generally a matter of personal preference. I use a key combo, For me the toolbar is lost screen space. Then may be a simple turn on/off toolbar button (I hope it is not a lost screen space for you :-) ) would make sense. The option already exists. In Tools > options > Editor toolbar. Hence, I said its no issue for me if it is there by default. Actually: I just checked the released 3.6 => and the Toolbar is shown by default. It just comes with only 2 buttons, but as I said, I am not opposed to an other preset, but you need to see what others in the team think. So Lazarus mail list, or bug report. But, I don't say my preference has to be the defining one. Since it can be disabled, IMHO it may be there to start with. As for which buttons should be on there by default, I have only a basic opinion (since I don't use it). I think the buttons on my little mentioned screenshot are useful for all (beginners and experts). And next to it a shortcut icon to the edit of the toolbar. http://85.114.142.209:18080/uploads/x_Lazarus_with_icons.png They look like edit command => Though I am not sure what the gears are My personal concern was from your statement: If you want to compile the whole project you simply click on the button instead of searching it in the menu. IMHO, that should be in the cool-bar => the global toolbar below the menu. It doesn't relate to any particular editor. See the quote of mine at the very bottom of this mail. Edit of the toolbar is already possible with a right button click. Better would be an explicit button so that this is more obvious. So is the coolbar (well don't know about right click, but in the options) Functions such as "compile the whole project" don't relate to a single Editor. Showing them multiply times (for each editor window) is imho not a proper default. But of course fine for anyone who likes it. ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
Am Mittwoch, 16. Oktober 2024, 17:40:26 CEST schrieb xuser13--- via fpc- pascal: > Freepascal will never become popular in a world where JavaScript is > everywhere, Delphi exists & Pascal has a reputation of not cool > programming language. I strongly believe that many users will have fun with Freepascal when it would be easy to use. Turbo Pascal was very popular because they made it easy. You can do everything with Freepascal. ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
On 16/10/2024 18:06, Rainer Stratmann via fpc-pascal wrote: Am Mittwoch, 16. Oktober 2024, 15:54:20 CEST schrieb Martin Frb via fpc- pascal: Define "Compiler". You use one and the same fpc.exe. But you need a different ppc.exe. All those ppc live in the same folder. And they are all called by the same fpc.exe, depending on the options given to that fpc.exe. Of course, for that they must be installed as cross compilers. So they also share the fpc.cfg. But the all have their own ppu and o files. That means fpc.exe calls another (more specific) compiler? The irony in this question is that your appear to think too technical, too much caring about internal details... More of what an expert would think, than what a beginner would look for ... (And yet, this is about making it more beginner friendly...) If you want to cross compile, you shouldn't need to think about which compiler to use. Just what target (defined by OS and CPU) you need. (and in future FPC 3.4 or 4.0 maybe what sub-target (widestring vs ansistring)). Then you see "... Target" in the tree of options and it has - Target OS - Target CPU family And, yes well "Target Processor", which is not really cross compile, but optimization for a specific processor (removing backward compatibility for any older CPU of that type). That may lack a bit of clarity Of course, it will only work if you setup is correct. On Window there are installers for cross compiling between 64 and 32 bit Windows. If you install that into the same dir as your Lazarus then it will work out of the box. Sorry, no such think for Linux to other OS (not yet anyway) ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
Am Mittwoch, 16. Oktober 2024, 18:27:19 CEST schrieb Martin Frb via fpc- pascal: > >> Yeah, editor toolbar => you get that name, if you click the "configure" > >> option. The toolbar can be on top or bottom. > > > > However, this has to be done from scratch every time you install Lazarus > > instead of having it in the basic installation. > > That sounds like a bug to me. Unless you mean a really new install, not > an upgrade? Yes, I mean a really new install. Sorry I am tired for today... ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
Op 16/10/2024 om 02:54 schreef DougC via fpc-pascal: On Tue, 15 Oct 2024 19:07:58 -0400 *Rainer Stratmann via fpc-pascal * wrote --- At the Lazarus Congress in Cologne in October 2024, it ended up being very interesting. An important question came up. Why are no new users coming to Lazarus/Freepascal? Why do we find it so difficult? How can we get new, younger users to come to us? The most fundamental reason more people are not adopting Pascal as a programming language is because in the mid-1990's Pascal lost out to Java as the initial language that was taught in university settings. Because that was the last place Pascal was widely used, it quickly became obscure. Also, C was always thought to be the pinnacle of achievement. That is, if you could program in C you were considered elite. That continues today, although those promoting Rust are making a commendable and stalwart effort to have it accepted into the Linux kernel. I agree roughly with you. It is simply a case of what brings in initial users. It used to be TP and Delphiers for either platform or cost but that is decreasing. We don't have big patron or other mechanism that substitutes. All the navelgazing on what could be wrong with the presentation or initial user experience don't make up for those initial numbers. That mostly influences the conversion rate of initial impressions to users that try it, but we simply don't have the same number of initial impressions. And those initial impressions are generated by major vendors or linux distributors or whatever adopting a language. Today, Python is probably the most widely used programming language. Its appeal is based on ease of learning and relaxed rules that increase ease of use. While it is as severely flawed language from a strict design viewpoint, it has taken over. Keep in mind that before Python became data scientist's darling, many distributions installed it by default for over a decade to replace default distro engineering scripting in Perl (the scripting darling before Python). It is not just features, exposure is also a factor. So, faced with this situation, what can be done? Short of a massive and expensive marketing effort, not much, except to remove obvious attributes that hinder adoption. Not always. Keep in mind that entice an initial user to stick around a bit longer is only one stage. Core motivation to start and persist with anything beyond the first install, and all other stages till you are a core developer ;-) (and each stage has a progressively smaller conversion factor). Overly focusing on the initial user experience is a luxury from projects with enormous initial impressions, where every effort for the initial user leads to masses of extra new converts, that will sooner or later permeate all aspects of the project. Either by paying the bills or taking part in development) But we are not in that situation, and must keep an eye on all users, not just focus on the initial user conversion. Making sure the few initial converts stick is as important as getting more initial impressions. One such attribute is the messy, cluttered look of the IDE. An IDE redesign with a cleaner, simpler, and visually appealing presentation would help enormously. It looks like that is what is being proposed here. I think the docked IDE by default will have its advantages. Redesign is probably not an option. I have always found that the self-contained nature of Pascal/Delphi executables is a big advantage over other language systems. Just copy the file and run it, even on a system that has never seen a Pascal/Delphi executable before. If we could do that with the IDE/compiler it would be magic! The install process is far from that goal right now. And the longevity of those binaries, and quick install. Copies that are installed standalone can be copied with components and all. Here at work we use Delphi for the main delivered applications, but lazarus for everything else because of the limited number of Delphi installs.___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
Op 16/10/2024 om 15:36 schreef Rainer Stratmann via fpc-pascal: Am Mittwoch, 16. Oktober 2024, 14:03:39 CEST schrieb Marco van de Voort via fpc-pascal: Making sure the few initial converts stick is as important as getting more initial impressions. I can't see any contradiction here. If we do things better, everyone benefits. You need the new users to stick, not just to try it. Specially if you have to do a lot of trouble to increase the numbers only a bit. This is different from the really popular projects where small efforts can huge changes in usage. It is not bad to work at release engineering and default behavior of the IDE, but it should be more focussed on what can be done with limited means without changing course, rather than wild new plans. ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
On Wed, 16 Oct 2024 02:07:58 +0300, Rainer Stratmann via fpc-pascal wrote: > At the Lazarus Congress in Cologne in October 2024, it ended up being > very > interesting. An important question came up. > > Why are no new users coming to Lazarus/Freepascal? > Why do we find it so difficult? > How can we get new, younger users to come to us? > > The same questions came up over a year ago at a Freepascal/Lazarus > meeting in > Backnang. > > I have some answers: > > - The official Freepascal website doesn't look like the project is very > lively. The official Freepascal website look just fine. > - Lazarus looks very complicated with its many windows. And it is also > relatively complicated to understand and use. There are too many options > that > are too nested. Lazarus does not look complicated. It has it own distinctive look & feel. User should be able to completely detach windows from from main so it would be possible to move them to different monitor, virtual desktop & freely move on monitor. Freepascal will never become popular in a world where JavaScript is everywhere, Delphi exists & Pascal has a reputation of not cool programming language. -- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ __ Спецрахунок НБУ для гуманітарної допомоги українцям https://bank.gov.ua/ua/news/all/natsionalniy-bank-vidkriv-rahunok-dlya-gumanitarnoyi-dopomogi-ukrayintsyam-postrajdalim-vid-rosiyskoyi-agresiyi ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
Am Mittwoch, 16. Oktober 2024, 15:54:20 CEST schrieb Martin Frb via fpc- pascal: > Define "Compiler". > > You use one and the same fpc.exe. > > But you need a different ppc.exe. All those ppc live in the same > folder. And they are all called by the same fpc.exe, depending on the > options given to that fpc.exe. > > Of course, for that they must be installed as cross compilers. So they > also share the fpc.cfg. But the all have their own ppu and o files. That means fpc.exe calls another (more specific) compiler? > Yeah, editor toolbar => you get that name, if you click the "configure" > option. The toolbar can be on top or bottom. However, this has to be done from scratch every time you install Lazarus instead of having it in the basic installation. > Generally a matter of personal preference. I use a key combo, For me the > toolbar is lost screen space. Then may be a simple turn on/off toolbar button (I hope it is not a lost screen space for you :-) ) would make sense. > But, I don't say my preference has to be the defining one. Since it can > be disabled, IMHO it may be there to start with. > As for which buttons should be on there by default, I have only a basic > opinion (since I don't use it). I think the buttons on my little mentioned screenshot are useful for all (beginners and experts). And next to it a shortcut icon to the edit of the toolbar. Edit of the toolbar is already possible with a right button click. Better would be an explicit button so that this is more obvious. > But for people using toolbars, there is (both can be configured) > - the "IDE coolbar" (toolbar in the main IDE window, where the menu is) > - "Editor toolbar" > > Since you can have many editor windows open, and each of them shows you > the same "editor toolbar", IMHO that toolbar should have (as default) > only buttons relating to the current editor (or the editor window / the > tabs in the editor window). > https://pasteboard.co/8CdEFiy4cZiy.png has 3 editor windows => 3 times > the toolbar (not much on it in my case, but that is not the point) > > Functions such as "compile the whole project" don't relate to a single > Editor. Showing them multiply times (for each editor window) is imho not > a proper default. > > But of course fine for anyone who likes it. > > > https://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Screenshots > > Look at all this screenshots. This userfriendly icons are configured > > nowhere. I did not see them by now. > > Well, I am not against having them visible as default. Or having a > different set of them. > Though I don't call that decision on my own. > > - Find out on the Lazarus list (or bug tracker), what would be accepted > - Within that, provide a patch. Or try to find someone who will. > > That is how change happens. > > > ___ > fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org > https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
On Oct 16, 2024 at 9:18:01 PM, Nikolay Nikolov via fpc-pascal < fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org> wrote: > I also have some experience from my day job on making a VS Code extension > for the Nim language (you can see my commits in the Nim language server > here https://github.com/nim-lang/langserver/graphs/contributors and for > the Nim VS code extension here https://github.com/nim-lang/vscode-nim) > and I can definitely say VS Code is horrible crap. It's buggy as hell, new > versions break API compatibility all the time and it makes it look like > it's your language extension's fault. > > Not my experience. I prefer the editor in Sublime Text but VSCode is a good debugger which works with LLDB and Pascal. VSCode is wildly popular as well so FPC is missing out on new users by not having this as option. Maybe some packages you used were the culprit? They have a monthly update cycle too so I would think they catch these things. When I learn a new compiler these days I download the installer, run it, then check VSCode or Sublime Text for extensions to install in one click. If that doesn't work I probably just give up because I idon’t have time to be playing around and there’s myriad of new languages to play around with these days. ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
On 10/16/24 5:29 PM, Hairy Pixels via fpc-pascal wrote: On Oct 16, 2024 at 9:18:01 PM, Nikolay Nikolov via fpc-pascal wrote: I also have some experience from my day job on making a VS Code extension for the Nim language (you can see my commits in the Nim language server here https://github.com/nim-lang/langserver/graphs/contributors and for the Nim VS code extension here https://github.com/nim-lang/vscode-nim) and I can definitely say VS Code is horrible crap. It's buggy as hell, new versions break API compatibility all the time and it makes it look like it's your language extension's fault. Not my experience. I prefer the editor in Sublime Text but VSCode is a good debugger which works with LLDB and Pascal. VSCode is wildly popular as well so FPC is missing out on new users by not having this as option. Maybe some packages you used were the culprit? They have a monthly update cycle too so I would think they catch these things. I don't know, it could be the Nim to JS compiler, or the fact that the previous plugin developer didn't use the LSP protocol, but direct integration instead. But I don't like the whole idea of an IDE, written in JavaScript. It's horribly bloated and difficult to debug. The LSP protocol is fine, though. I like the idea, it allows integration with many different IDEs and editors. Sublime Text is just one example, there are many people who use Vim, Neovim, Emacs, Helix and many others. I also think it's a nice and quick way to improve the console IDE by adding an LSP client. But I have a huge backlog of things to do, so I haven't started on this, yet. When I learn a new compiler these days I download the installer, run it, then check VSCode or Sublime Text for extensions to install in one click. If that doesn't work I probably just give up because I idon’t have time to be playing around and there’s myriad of new languages to play around with these days. Yeah, it's tempting with its store of extensions. Too bad most of it is crap. And it's not fully open source. Sorry, I use it at work, and just don't like it. Anyhow, there's nothing wrong in developing an VS Code plugin for Pascal. Anybody interested can try to do that. Most of the work is probably fixing the LSP server, as it does most of the work. This way, the extension itself can be kept minimal. Best regards, Nikolay ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
Another point is that FPC doesn’t have an official forum except for the mail list and that in and of itself is a problem if you ask me. Most young people don’t use email and won’t like this. I myself don’t prefer the mail list over some of the very nice forums that allow posting code and very easy to use and browse information. You can’t even easily browse the old messages compared to other services. I would much prefer what https://discourse.llvm.org/ does and many others for example. I brought this up a while ago and people didn’t seem to like the idea. Very well but for new users I think you’re shooting yourself in foot by not have a competitive way to get help. ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
On Oct 16, 2024 at 8:50:21 PM, Ștefan-Iulian Alecu via fpc-pascal < fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org> wrote: > I don't blame someone coming at me and thinking Pascal's > old, when we're clinging on to Lazarus with *everything*. It is a bit > sad if you think about it: we're putting Lazarus on a pedestal, which > made the wider community (IMO) not consider what happens if you have to > use its features outside of the IDE. The question I have is, if you’re a new programmer not wanting to make a cross platform app what are building with Pascal? It’s still a good low level compiled language and you can do things like SDL and games with it but people are using C++ for that mainly and think FPC lags behind in some areas like smart pointers and RAII. I’d look at what languages like Zig and Rust have done to attract so many new users and what kind of programs they’re making. I like the Jai (closed beta) and Odin projects too in that they promote games and have all the stuff you’d need to get started right out of the box. Regards, Ryan Joseph ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
I am aware of your work. As long as you still depend on CodeTools and Lazarus internals, the language server can't be called independent. I have tried to compile the LSP (at least Michaël's version) and it seems to fail every time. Which is why I am trying to make my own, in an attempt to be more usable right away for VSCode. I also use ST4 from time to time, as well as Neovim and Emacs, and the experience there has been lackluster, sadly. IMO, there is community interest in the project itself, but when push comes to shove, magically nobody wants to get involved. Is this the bystander effect? Maybe. /shrug I'll revisit your extensions and give pascal-language-server yet another shot, but I am not too confident. If I can make it work within a CI/CD context, I'll send a PR. This would imply cloning all of Lazarus, and following trunk (I wonder if that's still needed, since Laz 3.6 is out), and that's why not having Lazarus in the mix would be a net benefit. -- Stefan-Iulian Alecu ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
Op 16/10/2024 om 04:32 schreef Rainer Stratmann via fpc-pascal: I don't think the situations are vary similar, so I don't think the comparison is useful. I mainly wanted to say that it is possible to do so without extensive marketing. Linux is another example. Linux does not spend a huge amount of money in marketing. It is widely used because it runs stable and for some other reasons. I don't think we can compare ourselves to projects that IBM already invested a billion into two decades ago. The foundation helps, but is not yet in that magnitude :-) ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
Am Mittwoch, 16. Oktober 2024, 14:03:39 CEST schrieb Marco van de Voort via fpc-pascal: > Making sure the few initial > converts stick is as important as getting more initial impressions. I can't see any contradiction here. If we do things better, everyone benefits. ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
On Oct 16, 2024 at 9:08:13 PM, Stefan-Iulian Alecu via fpc-pascal < fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org> wrote: > I'll revisit your extensions and give pascal-language-server yet another > shot, but I am not too confident. If I can make it work within a CI/CD > context, I'll send a PR. This would imply cloning all of Lazarus, and > following trunk (I wonder if that's still needed, since Laz 3.6 is out), > and that's why not having Lazarus in the mix would be a net benefit. > Exactly it’s hard to use and the building fails for people. I only use it on macOS but things always change and are breaking. It DOES work though and offers a good deal of functionality, at least all the important stuff. This is more of a build problem for you though right? I know it’s not a standalone thing and relies on Lazarus but what realistically are you going to do? Already CodeTools is a massive project and I wouldn’t want to recreate that just to for easier building. Then you need to keep it updated for every new change the compiler makes, which no one has time for. I wonder how other new compilers handle this. I think unless the compiler itself has a “quick” mode for LSP’s you’ll need a whole other program which knows the syntax and isn’t in sync with the compilers parser/type checking etc… ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
Hi! I want to preface this by saying I am one of the new, younger (almost 23) devs that the FP team is looking for. I clearly grew in a different context when it comes to the programming world around me, so I hope my perspective will be valuable. This also brings forward the perspective of some active users over on the Free Pascal Discord server. Programming language /and expectations thereof/ has evolved tremendously over the last ten or so years, and Lazarus can't keep up (and Delphi's limping along, despite having Embarcadero backing it up). I consider that we have to reach beyond Delphi and innovate as much as we can within this niche (as FPC has done before, implementing generics before Delphi) if we want to establish FPC's longevity. There are many, many things lacking currently that are part of ``modern'' expectations: 1. a build system that is ergonomic and can be used in the terminal; 2. a package manager that can be used independently (looking at you, OPM...); 3. ideally, something that could combine 1 and 2 (see cargo, go, Ada's Alire etc.); 4. a proper VSCode extension (we can include Vim and Emacs there too, but the main focus is VSCode) with all the bells and whistles more established extensions have. I know we would all want to stick to Lazarus and we all know that VSCode is bloated, but we have to accept the reality that people do use it and it is really popular. Survive, adapt, overcome. :-) OmniPascal was a nice attempt, but it's dead and also closed source; 5. some form of describing projects that's (ideally) separate from Lazarus; it brings 1-4 together, as well as helping the following items in one form or another; 6. an independent language server (no, cutting Lazarus' guts doesn't count, not until people can easily install precompiled versions) that can be used with the VSCode extension; 7. a popular and documented testing library and some way of integrating it into the aforementioned tool at #3; 8. a nicely-made (or at least not stuck in 1999... looking at you, GCC) website for the language itself (this would be an effort to promote Object Pascal in general, with a focus on Free Pascal, since Embarcadero definitely has the budget to hire some designers...). Even Forth, Fortran and Ada learned that lesson with their websites, we surely can do better; 9. educational and promotional materials (documentation's definitely NOT the strong suite of Free Pascal...); 10. more widespread usage of PasDoc, or a solution like it, and improve how the documentation is displayed within Lazarus itself. We *really* have to insist on documentation and tutorials, since a lot of parts of the RTL and FCL might as well not be documented, with no examples; 11. more social media presence/marketing effort (at least The Silver Coder has been doing a good job on YouTube, as well as Code with Huw). YouTube, blog posts, Reddit, HackerNews etc. It would be absurd to expect the Free Pascal team to do all of these, everyone's already stretched thin and overworked. More people that could develop FP would be nice. Notice that all of the things listed above *don't* involve changing the language in any way (maybe changing Lazarus, but not by a whole lot). I have done my fair share of promotion of Free Pascal in my local communities (more generally Wirth's work, but that's not relevant) and I did bring people over to FPC and change their minds regarding Pascal, but this effort needs to be coordinated. We can't be an insular community, otherwise we'll die surrounded by the sharks of misinformation or of old age. We must not ignore the advancements that have been made by other current programming languages (tooling or otherwise) and how they've pushed the envelope of what's possible from a DX standpoint. I don't blame someone coming at me and thinking Pascal's old, when we're clinging on to Lazarus with *everything*. It is a bit sad if you think about it: we're putting Lazarus on a pedestal, which made the wider community (IMO) not consider what happens if you have to use its features outside of the IDE. We shouldn't be like Delphi, where everything *has* to use RAD Studio. We can be better than that. What's more frustrating is that there have been separated attempts at at least one of these items, so solutions do exist, but nobody put these together into something a beginner can use. Have fun using OPM outside of Lazarus without putting a lot of work into making it a CLI tool that can be used in CI/CD. I have plans for 1-6 and 8 (especially #6, that's what I am working on right now), but I can't do it all by myself (I also have a thesis in progress). As a community, we all have to come together and work on all these fronts. Free Pascal will not suddenly become trendy again, but we shouldn't give up without trying. You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. I still have trust in this language (despite the occasional paper cuts and
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
On 10/16/24 3:30 PM, Rainer Stratmann via fpc-pascal wrote: Free Pascal is exactly as "scattered" all over the Linux system, as gcc, clang, rust and pretty much any other compiler. How is this exactly a problem, since all major distros ship fpc as an official package and it is used to build other packages as well? It's not exactly difficult to do e.g. on Fedora: In my view that is a huge problem. You defend it simply by saying other programs do it, too. You rely on the distro in relation to updates. I am very experienced in making software that my clients understand. If I would throw the software in front of my clients like this I had no chance to sell it to them and to survive. I know exactly what I'm talking about. If there is an Update of the software more than 100 clients can press a button and in 10 seconds at the latest they have the newest version. I'm putting it on a golden platter because they don't even have to pay for it at the moment. Because I see it also as an advantage for me to learn from the clients needs. And it is a very big advantage to have a fast feedback. Instead of waiting years for the newest version. With one ZIP File that contains all necessary files you can have a similar effect. Compilers are very different, compared to regular apps. Linux distros usually have very special rules for packaging compilers, as well as for updating them. So, in a way, they are sort of a "system" program, as far as Linux distros are concerned. They are a tool, used for building the distribution's other binary packages. They're not just some self-contained app. Most Linux users should be fine with just using fpc from their distro. And those who want to build fpc trunk (and these are not beginners) can still use fpc from the distro as a starting compiler. Maybe the FPC website needs to include information on how to install fpc from the distro, for distros that package it. For example, the download page for the Nim compiler includes that under "Installation using package managers": https://nim-lang.org/install_unix.html Nikolay ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
On Oct 16, 2024 at 8:50:21 PM, Ștefan-Iulian Alecu via fpc-pascal < fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org> wrote: > 4. a proper VSCode extension (we can include Vim and Emacs there too, > but the main focus is VSCode) with all the bells and whistles more > established extensions have. I know we would all want to stick to > Lazarus and we all know that VSCode is bloated, but we have to accept > the reality that people do use it and it is really popular. Survive, > adapt, overcome. :-) OmniPascal was a nice attempt, but it's dead and > also closed source; > > 6. an independent language server (no, cutting Lazarus' guts doesn't > count, not until people can easily install precompiled versions) that > can be used with the VSCode extension; > I have a language server I made and VSCode extension but it’s hard to use and buggy (mainly because CodeTools) but for other reasons that are my own fault. I never got the package working well enough to download binaries and run smoothly. Personally I use Sublime Text but I use VSCode for the debugger. There is one other person helping me but I haven’t touched it in a long time after many changes were made (for Lazarus users I think) so I’m not sure how well it’s working now. There’s just not enough community interest and people with free time to tie up all the loose ends. ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
> One of the highest-project single Kylix (Delphi for Linux) projects I > ever saw languishes in unmaintained obscurity: XPde. I tried to compile it using Free Pascal and fix it, however I am constantly stuck with all the Kylix-specific parts. I even tried installing actual Kylix just to see if it was my fault, but that's apparently notoriously hard to install on modern distros, so I gave up. I think it needs a rewrite, at least a partial one. I don't know how good Kylix compatibility is, but I don't have much faith as is. Also, a lot of apps seem to be lost to time, so if someone dares to embark on this journey, they'd have to remake said apps, at which point you could just rewrite everything and possibly port it to FP or move away from X11 to Wayland. -- Ștefan-Iulian Alecu ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
Am 17.10.2024 um 01:51 schrieb Rainer Stratmann via fpc-pascal: Am Donnerstag, 17. Oktober 2024, 00:08:27 CEST schrieb Sven Barth via fpc- pascal: News flash: this is how well behaved Linux applications are supposed to behave no matter if they are a "Linux system program" or not. Haha, I did not know this. Very good that you tell me... As far as I know fpcupdeluxe stores everything in one folder and that works (better). But that doesn't make it correct from a Linux point of view. Regards, Sven___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
Am 17.10.2024 um 01:57 schrieb Rainer Stratmann via fpc-pascal: Am Mittwoch, 16. Oktober 2024, 23:12:08 CEST schrieb Michael Van Canneyt via fpc-pascal: Actually, my employer has already offered twice to sponsor a web-designer to overhaul the website. Money was not an issue. The idea was to announce a contest and to select a winning design. The designer gets then the money. What counts is a site that is alive. Look at https://www.mikrocontroller.net This site is very alive. A lot of development is going on there. You can even make a post as a guest without registration. We don't have a way to access the Lazarus forum from the main page, so there is no way to make it “livlier” that way. And for news: I prefer to spend the time coding instead of trying to think up something that might be useful news for the community. That's also a difference between mikrocontroller.net and Free Pascal: the former is simply a community of enthusiastic users. They don't have a specific team that works on something concrete like we do. May be we don't have to reinvent the wheel and ask the owner. https://www.mikrocontroller.net/contact There is no need to ask them, cause the main point is that they use some custom forum software and website. We don't for the forum and for the website we have static pages to reduce maintainenace. Regards, Sven___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
Am 17.10.2024 um 03:42 schrieb Ralf Quint via fpc-pascal: On 10/16/2024 2:49 PM, James Richters via fpc-pascal wrote: >> By and large, FPC (and Lazarus) is installed rather quickly. The only thing I wish for the installation of FPC is that all the help files were included and installed by default. I am always annoyed by being required to go get the help files and add them in myself when I install FPC.I think many years ago making them separate files that could be downloaded if needed made sense, but those days are long gone and manually downloading and installing the help files is just not necessary anymore. I know you don’t need the help files if you have Lazarus, and I’m in the minority, but I like the text IDE and use it exclusively. I think anyone coming across the IDE and not realizing the help needs to be downloaded and installed separately would just assume there is no help.I know it states it quite clearly on the download page, but when downloading it you are just tying to get it working it’s not until you want to really do something and try to use the help that you realize there is none, and by then you forgot what was on the download page. Not sure what kind of help you are referring to, but Help seems to be installed on my system I am currently working on, and all I ever download when upgrading or installing a new version is the 64bit version of Lazarus&compiler as well as the 32bit cross-compiler... And on Linux, I download and install in order 3 files, as clearly indicated, which are fpc-laz (the compiler), fpc-src (source code) and lazarus-project (IDE), with the later including the help files... He's talking about the help for the textmode IDE. As he wrote Lazarus includes the help, but the FPC installer does not. Regards, Sven___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
And here is my 2c worth ... Firstly, I will say that I do not know much about the group that manages FPC and related tools. I am also relatively new to FPC but a long time user of Delphi. Here is a newbies view of the world: 1. while the content on the website may be correct, it looks dated (first impressions count 2. I cannot remember how many options there were regarding what to download but stuck for a minute or two >From then on it was OK. Now, to what I wanted to say... I joined this list last night because it was suggested to me based on this topic. Depressing reading. I also understand that users venting is a normal thing. (And then the messages will prolly get picked up by AI and people read all about what's missing!) Here are some questions/ideas/thoughts: 1. Will the ideas get collected and considered for the "next" version? 2. Is there, or should there be a roadmap to give users hope? Also, are there things (features) in the language that we can leverage from a marketing perspective - that you can build for a large number of devices is not very useful (if the langage is flagging). Just my opinion. Also, given that I have also have a YouTube channel, if there are things you would like promoted for the benefit of the language, then let me know. I would even appreciated collaborating with others. But when ideas are put forward by the truck load, something has to be done with these. Cheers, Tim (The Silver Coder @silvercoder70 on YouTube) On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 7:17 AM Michael Van Canneyt via fpc-pascal < fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org> wrote: > > > On Wed, 16 Oct 2024, Ralf Quint via fpc-pascal wrote: > > > Sorry, but there has been so much nonsense in this thread, I just had to > add > > my 2c as well. > > On 10/15/2024 4:07 PM, Rainer Stratmann via fpc-pascal wrote: > >> At the Lazarus Congress in Cologne in October 2024, it ended up being > very > >> interesting. An important question came up. > >> > >> Why are no new users coming to Lazarus/Freepascal? > >> Why do we find it so difficult? > >> How can we get new, younger users to come to us? > >> > >> The same questions came up over a year ago at a Freepascal/Lazarus > meeting > >> in > >> Backnang. > >> > >> I have some answers: > >> > >> - The official Freepascal website doesn't look like the project is very > >> lively. > > An absolute non-factor. Yes, the "Latest News" seems to be dated, but > then I > > would prefer people involved in the project work on compiler related > issues > > rather than on web sites. > > Actually, my employer has already offered twice to sponsor a web-designer > to > overhaul the website. Money was not an issue. The idea was to announce a > contest and to select a winning design. The designer gets then the money. > > I have proposed this to the FPC core team, after some insistance I managed > to get a list of constraints from (if memory serves well?) 1 person. > > I admit I was put off by what I perceived to be a complete lack of > enthusiasm > for this plan in the team, so I put it in the refrigerator for the time > being... > > My intent is to re-start the debate on this after 3.2.4 comes out. > > Just to say that I do think the site (20+ years old?) can use an overhaul, > and that with the above plan, no developer time needs to be spent on it. > > Michael. > ___ > fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org > https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal > ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
On 16-10-2024 11:07, Nikolay Nikolov via fpc-pascal wrote: On 10/16/24 2:07 AM, Rainer Stratmann via fpc-pascal wrote: At the Lazarus Congress in Cologne in October 2024, it ended up being very interesting. An important question came up. Why are no new users coming to Lazarus/Freepascal? Why do we find it so difficult? How can we get new, younger users to come to us? The same questions came up over a year ago at a Freepascal/Lazarus meeting in Backnang. I have some answers: - The official Freepascal website doesn't look like the project is very lively. Maybe another redesign is necessary? Unfortunately, good compiler developers often aren't very good at web design, and someone has to contribute this. Look at the gcc or the llvm site, it's even worse. :) https://gcc.gnu.org/ https://llvm.org/ Or maybe, it's better? I don't know. Maybe explain what do you mean by "doesn't look like the project is very lively". Maybe we should post updates more often? - Lazarus looks very complicated with its many windows. And it is also relatively complicated to understand and use. There are too many options that are too nested. Kinda agree, at least for beginners and for small programs. How about the console IDE? I sometimes prefer it for small programs. But for large programs, nothing beats Lazarus. - Crosscompiling: The compiler file name is hidden in Tools - Settings instead of in the project settings. I found this out after some time. Since it was nowhere to be found in the project settings I first thought it might be hard- coded! - Linux: All relevant files (executable files, configuration files, source code, etc.) are scattered all over the Linux system. This is very complicated again. If Lazarus/Freepascal were a Linux system program it would make sense. But it is NOT a Linux system program. The chance that it will be used by several users on a multi-user system is close to zero. Free Pascal is exactly as "scattered" all over the Linux system, as gcc, clang, rust and pretty much any other compiler. How is this exactly a problem, since all major distros ship fpc as an official package and it is used to build other packages as well? It's not exactly difficult to do e.g. on Fedora: sudo dnf install fpc or sudo dnf install lazarus Even strange distros like NixOS ship fpc. I'm sorry, but I don't get it, how is this a problem? Maybe for people who are new and want to get into FPC development and want to build it from source? But definitely not for new users. If I do a "apt-cache policy lazarus" it looks like it is an old version that get installed. pi@raspberrypi:~ $ apt-cache policy lazarus lazarus: Installed: (none) Candidate: 2.2.6+dfsg2-2 Version table: 2.2.6+dfsg2-2 500 500 http://raspbian.raspberrypi.com/raspbian bookworm/main armhf Packages Carsten ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
On Oct 17, 2024 at 4:12:08 AM, Michael Van Canneyt via fpc-pascal < fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org> wrote: > I have proposed this to the FPC core team, after some insistance I managed > to get a list of constraints from (if memory serves well?) 1 person. > > I admit I was put off by what I perceived to be a complete lack of > enthusiasm > for this plan in the team, so I put it in the refrigerator for the time > being... > > My intent is to re-start the debate on this after 3.2.4 comes out. > > Just to say that I do think the site (20+ years old?) can use an overhaul, > and that with the above plan, no developer time needs to be spent on it. > > This thread is supposed to be about getting new users but I hear many people still digging their heels in on these out dated elements. A 20 year old website can’t be good. No business would allow this so I don’t see how it should be different for a compiler. It’s possible new potential users get to the website and think it’s a joke and leave right then. This is what people are like in the real word and it should be taken notice of in my opinion. Regards, Ryan Joseph ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] Fwd: What to do to get new users
On Oct 17, 2024 at 12:03:47 AM, Guillermo Martínez Jiménez via fpc-pascal < fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org> wrote: > Prease DON'T add garbage collector. IMO it isn't a good idea. I had > very bad experiences with it. Unless somebody found a new magic > algorithm in the last decade... > I used C# for Unity quite a bit and never had any problems. That’s even with the worst case scenario for game developing that needs real time graphics. Does that power all of .NET too and all those desktop applications? It’s been battle tested many years as far as I can tell. In 2024 you don’t need the performance of manual memory management in UI apps. Garbage collector or anything else will work perfectly well. Regards, Ryan Joseph ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
Op 16-10-2024 om 15:50 schreef Ștefan-Iulian Alecu via fpc-pascal: 4. a proper VSCode extension (we can include Vim and Emacs there too, but the main focus is VSCode) with all the bells and whistles more established extensions have. I know we would all want to stick to Lazarus and we all know that VSCode is bloated, but we have to accept the reality that people do use it and it is really popular. Survive, adapt, overcome. :-) OmniPascal was a nice attempt, but it's dead and also closed source; To paraphrase GJC, I came, I provided the resources and I overcame. 5. some form of describing projects that's (ideally) separate from Lazarus; it brings 1-4 together, as well as helping the following items in one form or another; Does VSCode have a project system then nowadays? I thought that being projectless was the main feature of VSCODE. 10. more widespread usage of PasDoc, or a solution like it, and improve how the documentation is displayed within Lazarus itself. We *really* have to insist on documentation and tutorials, since a lot of parts of the RTL and FCL might as well not be documented, with no examples; There is fpdoc, and the FPC docs are quite ok. The problem is contributors. It would be absurd to expect the Free Pascal team to do all of these, everyone's already stretched thin and overworked. More people that could develop FP would be nice. Notice that all of the things listed above *don't* involve changing the language in any way (maybe changing Lazarus, but not by a whole lot). Agree. In practice the best solution is to try to rise through the ranks and become a bugreporter and triager, delivering good quality patches to core, and maybe have a bunch of own projects on the side. Core developers are usually recruited from those ranks. We can't be an insular community, otherwise we'll die surrounded by the sharks of misinformation or of old age. Or because we spread ourselves too thin. Having dreams of an ivory tower that somehow restores equilibrium ( new developers > old developers) is easy. Making the economics work is much harder. Attempting to whipold and tired Lazarus developers into submission to work on vscode plugins IMHO it doesn't make sense. In short, I think the new IDEs developers must come from the new developers ranks, those who actually believe in it. ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
On 10/16/2024 2:49 PM, James Richters via fpc-pascal wrote: >> By and large, FPC (and Lazarus) is installed rather quickly. The only thing I wish for the installation of FPC is that all the help files were included and installed by default. I am always annoyed by being required to go get the help files and add them in myself when I install FPC.I think many years ago making them separate files that could be downloaded if needed made sense, but those days are long gone and manually downloading and installing the help files is just not necessary anymore. I know you don’t need the help files if you have Lazarus, and I’m in the minority, but I like the text IDE and use it exclusively. I think anyone coming across the IDE and not realizing the help needs to be downloaded and installed separately would just assume there is no help.I know it states it quite clearly on the download page, but when downloading it you are just tying to get it working it’s not until you want to really do something and try to use the help that you realize there is none, and by then you forgot what was on the download page. Not sure what kind of help you are referring to, but Help seems to be installed on my system I am currently working on, and all I ever download when upgrading or installing a new version is the 64bit version of Lazarus&compiler as well as the 32bit cross-compiler... And on Linux, I download and install in order 3 files, as clearly indicated, which are fpc-laz (the compiler), fpc-src (source code) and lazarus-project (IDE), with the later including the help files... Ralf ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
Am Donnerstag, 17. Oktober 2024, 00:08:27 CEST schrieb Sven Barth via fpc- pascal: > News flash: this is how well behaved Linux applications are supposed to > behave no matter if they are a "Linux system program" or not. Haha, I did not know this. Very good that you tell me... As far as I know fpcupdeluxe stores everything in one folder and that works (better). > That said the FPC installer allows you to install FPC in a completely > separate folder with only the configuration file(s) in your home directory > (I do so for example, cause I have multiple FPC versions installed). Very good. ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
Am Mittwoch, 16. Oktober 2024, 23:12:08 CEST schrieb Michael Van Canneyt via fpc-pascal: > Actually, my employer has already offered twice to sponsor a web-designer to > overhaul the website. Money was not an issue. The idea was to announce a > contest and to select a winning design. The designer gets then the money. What counts is a site that is alive. Look at https://www.mikrocontroller.net This site is very alive. A lot of development is going on there. You can even make a post as a guest without registration. May be we don't have to reinvent the wheel and ask the owner. https://www.mikrocontroller.net/contact ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
On Wed, 16 Oct 2024, Ralf Quint via fpc-pascal wrote: Sorry, but there has been so much nonsense in this thread, I just had to add my 2c as well. On 10/15/2024 4:07 PM, Rainer Stratmann via fpc-pascal wrote: At the Lazarus Congress in Cologne in October 2024, it ended up being very interesting. An important question came up. Why are no new users coming to Lazarus/Freepascal? Why do we find it so difficult? How can we get new, younger users to come to us? The same questions came up over a year ago at a Freepascal/Lazarus meeting in Backnang. I have some answers: - The official Freepascal website doesn't look like the project is very lively. An absolute non-factor. Yes, the "Latest News" seems to be dated, but then I would prefer people involved in the project work on compiler related issues rather than on web sites. Actually, my employer has already offered twice to sponsor a web-designer to overhaul the website. Money was not an issue. The idea was to announce a contest and to select a winning design. The designer gets then the money. I have proposed this to the FPC core team, after some insistance I managed to get a list of constraints from (if memory serves well?) 1 person. I admit I was put off by what I perceived to be a complete lack of enthusiasm for this plan in the team, so I put it in the refrigerator for the time being... My intent is to re-start the debate on this after 3.2.4 comes out. Just to say that I do think the site (20+ years old?) can use an overhaul, and that with the above plan, no developer time needs to be spent on it. Michael. ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
geneb via fpc-pascal schrieb am Mi., 16. Okt. 2024, 16:19: > > > I have always found that the self-contained nature of Pascal/Delphi > > executables is a big advantage over other language systems. Just copy > > the file and run it, even on a system that has never seen a > > Pascal/Delphi executable before. If we could do that with the > > IDE/compiler it would be magic! The install process is far from that > > goal right now. > > > > Doug C. > > > Portable Lazarus would just kick ass. > At least the Windows installer already provides an option to make the installation portable. Something similar can probably done for Linux as well (macOS requires the installation of development tools provided by Apple, so a totally fresh system would not work). Regards, Sven > ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] Fwd: What to do to get new users
On 10/16/24 8:03 PM, Guillermo Martínez Jiménez via fpc-pascal wrote: Prease DON'T add garbage collector. IMO it isn't a good idea. I had very bad experiences with it. Unless somebody found a new magic algorithm in the last decade... I agree. Although, I'm not against someone adding a .NET target (which has to be garbage collected), or doing some cool things (like, apps, libraries, frameworks, etc.) with the JVM compiler (which uses a garbage collector). But people don't seem to be interested in that. For the native targets, I think garbage collection is a bad idea. That being said, I think some garbage collectors that can be used with C and C++ can also be used with Free Pascal, or at least, support for them should be easy to implement for the few people who want to use them. Nikolay ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
>> By and large, FPC (and Lazarus) is installed rather quickly. The only thing I wish for the installation of FPC is that all the help files were included and installed by default. I am always annoyed by being required to go get the help files and add them in myself when I install FPC. I think many years ago making them separate files that could be downloaded if needed made sense, but those days are long gone and manually downloading and installing the help files is just not necessary anymore. I know you don’t need the help files if you have Lazarus, and I’m in the minority, but I like the text IDE and use it exclusively. I think anyone coming across the IDE and not realizing the help needs to be downloaded and installed separately would just assume there is no help. I know it states it quite clearly on the download page, but when downloading it you are just tying to get it working it’s not until you want to really do something and try to use the help that you realize there is none, and by then you forgot what was on the download page. James ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
Stefan-Iulian Alecu via fpc-pascal schrieb am Mi., 16. Okt. 2024, 23:38: > > Lazarus does not look complicated. It has it own distinctive look & feel. > > User > > should be able to completely detach windows from from main so it would be > > possible to move them to different monitor, virtual desktop & freely move > > on monitor. > You might've not realized that, but this is *foreign* and totally > different from how most IDEs out there function. If you're familiar with > Delphi 7 and lower, great, this feels natural, but the problem is that > other IDEs aren't like Delphi 7. Lazarus is still stuck in that era, and > that's /fine/ (at least, as far as the old Pascal devs are concerned), > but I see most people around me (beginners and otherwise) immediately > dock the IDE or ask me how to do it. Not to mention that it immediately > fails to function for tiling window managers. And "distinctive look and > feel" doesn't mean said look and feel is intuitive. I believe it would > be better if Lazarus was docked by default and give the option to easily > undock it, because far more beginners or curious people would want to > dock it, it's a better default. If you don't believe me, please look at > as many IDEs as you can and tell me *one* that's undocked like Lazarus > is. It genuinely is something unusual and jarring to newcomers. Maybe > there's a reason most other IDEs are docked, and even if you disagree > with that particular decision, it would be hard to deny the reality that > it's how people expect IDEs today to be structured. Even *RAD Studio* > gave up on the idea. Happy birthday 2002! > I think there are still some issues simply switching between the docked and undocked layout. If that would be solved (patches welcome 😉) then it would be a much easier decision to have the IDE be docked to default, cause those users that prefer undocked (and those *do* exist and we don't want *those* to leave just because we did this wrong) can then easily switch it to undocked. Regards, Sven > ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] Fwd: What to do to get new users
Hairy Pixels via fpc-pascal schrieb am Mi., 16. Okt. 2024, 13:49: > As for the language I think for GUI apps programmers don’t need or want a >> manual memory managed language like Pascal and would prefer something like >> C#. In general the ease of programming is not there in Pascal compared to >> other languages and the community is extremely resistant to change. >> >> Do you have a garbage collection proposal for Pascal? >> >> Free Pascal has a JVM target that supports garbage collection and pretty >> much nobody is using it. Why do you think that is? >> > I don’t even know how to use that! I assume it’s not something you just > enable on any program. I’ve never seen programs adopt it. > It's not something you enable. It's a completely different platform, namely the Java Virtual Machine, so essentially a different processor. Regards, Sven > ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
Op 16-10-2024 om 16:06 schreef Hairy Pixels via fpc-pascal: Another point is that FPC doesn’t have an official forum except for the mail list and that in and of itself is a problem if you ask me. Most young people don’t use email and won’t like this. I myself don’t prefer the mail list over some of the very nice forums that allow posting code and very easy to use and browse information. FPC asked the Lazarus team to provide FPC specific forum section to act as official forum, so this is FUD IMHO ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
On Wed, 16 Oct 2024, Nikolay Nikolov via fpc-pascal wrote: On 10/16/24 4:57 PM, Hairy Pixels via fpc-pascal wrote: On Oct 16, 2024 at 8:50:21 PM, Ștefan-Iulian Alecu via fpc-pascal wrote: 4. a proper VSCode extension (we can include Vim and Emacs there too, but the main focus is VSCode) with all the bells and whistles more established extensions have. I know we would all want to stick to Lazarus and we all know that VSCode is bloated, but we have to accept the reality that people do use it and it is really popular. Survive, adapt, overcome. :-) OmniPascal was a nice attempt, but it's dead and also closed source; 6. an independent language server (no, cutting Lazarus' guts doesn't count, not until people can easily install precompiled versions) that can be used with the VSCode extension; I have a language server I made and VSCode extension but it’s hard to use and buggy (mainly because CodeTools) but for other reasons that are my own fault. I never got the package working well enough to download binaries and run smoothly. Personally I use Sublime Text but I use VSCode for the debugger. I have some interest in implementing a language server client in the fp console IDE, so I have some interest in helping with the language server as well. However, I'm quite busy with other projects right now, so I don't know when I'll have the time to work on that. Maybe in a few (6-12) months? I'm a bit baffled. I'm using the VS Code plugin, it works OK. It needs some configuration because Lazarus works fundamentally different from VS Code, but when that is done, the plugin works fine. Some more actions can be added, but the basic actions work fine. From my experience, the FPC community is lucky to have something as good and stable as Lazarus. The IDE experience for Nim in VS Code sucks so much and the only reason people tolerate it, is because, there's no alternative IDE for Nim at all. We may like or dislike VS Code, but young programmers are trained with VS Code. It is the number 1 editor/IDE. These are the people to be seduced. Lazarus breathes 1995. This is ok for me, and probably all old-timers here, but for young developers, they look like they ended up in the middle ages of computing. Most will simply not do the effort to look beyond that. I had to work long on my colleagues to make them see that Lazarus has in fact better things on offer than Delphi and/or IntelliJ/VSCode. At work, now they make available a default setup of Lazarus: It looks almost like VS code. With the latest additions, it is possible. Without the possibility to get the VS code look and feel and feature list, they would not have made it available to all developers in the company. So if you want young people to come to pascal, but present them with an IDE that looks like a 1995 IDE, don't be surprised that they don't stay. Michael. ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
[fpc-pascal] Funding for FOSS projects, needs funding.json file in Gitlab
15 Oct news at Hacker News: https://floss.fund/blog/announcing-floss-fund/ They pay 1M $ per year, all FPC needs to apply is the funding.json in the repo. And then submit via online form. Format of the JSON schema is described there. https://floss.fund/funding-manifest/ Alex ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] Fwd: What to do to get new users
Nikolay Nikolov via fpc-pascal schrieb am Mi., 16. Okt. 2024, 11:44: > As for the language I think for GUI apps programmers don’t need or want a > manual memory managed language like Pascal and would prefer something like > C#. In general the ease of programming is not there in Pascal compared to > other languages and the community is extremely resistant to change. > > Do you have a garbage collection proposal for Pascal? > > Free Pascal has a JVM target that supports garbage collection and pretty > much nobody is using it. Why do you think that is? > To be fair working with the JVM target is quite a bit different and then not even all language constructs are supported yet (though there is a merge request I want to take a look at to improve the situation). Regards, Sven > ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
On 10/16/24 8:19 PM, Michael Van Canneyt via fpc-pascal wrote: On Wed, 16 Oct 2024, Nikolay Nikolov via fpc-pascal wrote: On 10/16/24 4:57 PM, Hairy Pixels via fpc-pascal wrote: On Oct 16, 2024 at 8:50:21 PM, Ștefan-Iulian Alecu via fpc-pascal wrote: 4. a proper VSCode extension (we can include Vim and Emacs there too, but the main focus is VSCode) with all the bells and whistles more established extensions have. I know we would all want to stick to Lazarus and we all know that VSCode is bloated, but we have to accept the reality that people do use it and it is really popular. Survive, adapt, overcome. :-) OmniPascal was a nice attempt, but it's dead and also closed source; 6. an independent language server (no, cutting Lazarus' guts doesn't count, not until people can easily install precompiled versions) that can be used with the VSCode extension; I have a language server I made and VSCode extension but it’s hard to use and buggy (mainly because CodeTools) but for other reasons that are my own fault. I never got the package working well enough to download binaries and run smoothly. Personally I use Sublime Text but I use VSCode for the debugger. I have some interest in implementing a language server client in the fp console IDE, so I have some interest in helping with the language server as well. However, I'm quite busy with other projects right now, so I don't know when I'll have the time to work on that. Maybe in a few (6-12) months? I'm a bit baffled. I'm using the VS Code plugin, it works OK. It needs some configuration because Lazarus works fundamentally different from VS Code, but when that is done, the plugin works fine. Some more actions can be added, but the basic actions work fine. Ok, that's cool, then. So, what's the problem? If the VS Code plugin works, why all the complaining about the lack of VS Code support? Nikolay ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
Rainer Stratmann via fpc-pascal schrieb am Mi., 16. Okt. 2024, 01:16: > - Linux: All relevant files (executable files, configuration files, source > code, > etc.) are scattered all over the Linux system. This is very complicated > again. > If Lazarus/Freepascal were a Linux system program it would make sense. But > it > is NOT a Linux system program. The chance that it will be used by several > users on a multi-user system is close to zero. > News flash: this is how well behaved Linux applications are supposed to behave no matter if they are a "Linux system program" or not. That said the FPC installer allows you to install FPC in a completely separate folder with only the configuration file(s) in your home directory (I do so for example, cause I have multiple FPC versions installed). Regards, Sven > ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
On Wed, 16 Oct 2024 at 14:58, Ștefan-Iulian Alecu via fpc-pascal wrote: > > I tried to compile it using Free Pascal and fix it, however I am > constantly stuck with all the Kylix-specific parts. I even tried > installing actual Kylix just to see if it was my fault, but that's > apparently notoriously hard to install on modern distros, so I gave up. > I think it needs a rewrite, at least a partial one. I don't know how > good Kylix compatibility is, but I don't have much faith as is. Also, a > lot of apps seem to be lost to time, so if someone dares to embark on > this journey, they'd have to remake said apps, at which point you could > just rewrite everything and possibly port it to FP or move away from X11 > to Wayland. Interesting. Thanks for looking into it! -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 227612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
Hairy Pixels via fpc-pascal schrieb am Mi., 16. Okt. 2024, 16:07: > Another point is that FPC doesn’t have an official forum except for the > mail list and that in and of itself is a problem if you ask me. Most young > people don’t use email and won’t like this. I myself don’t prefer the mail > list over some of the very nice forums that allow posting code and very > easy to use and browse information. > The official forum for Free Pascal is the Lazarus forum. It does not make sense to split the community even further (which it had been back when FPC had its own forum till it was decided that the Lazarus forum is the way to go). > You can’t even easily browse the old messages compared to other services. > I would much prefer what https://discourse.llvm.org/ does and many others > for example. I brought this up a while ago and people didn’t seem to like > the idea. Very well but for new users I think you’re shooting yourself in > foot by not have a competitive way to get help. > No, thank you. Regards, Sven > ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
Freepascal will never become popular in a world where JavaScript is everywhere, Delphi exists & Pascal has a reputation of not cool programming language. I don't think Delphi existing should be your main concern. It's a miracle it still exists right now and it has clients. I still use it as a "hey, this is what the Pascal community can achieve" argument, after telling people about Free Pascal (and rarely PascalABC.NET and Oxygene). True, Free Pascal will never be "popular" (not like Delphi is either...), but it doesn't mean we shouldn't try to promote it. Also, we can capitalize off of JS being popular, since we have Pas2JS. That's what Scala has done with Scala.JS, Clojure with ClojureScript, Ocamljs, Smart Mobile Studio (even Pascal can market itself properly), Ruby with Opal etc. People really don't want to deal with writing JS (look at how many people choose TypeScript and back in ye olde days it was CoffeeScript), so we can offer a viable alternative. Instead of denying the reality around us (we're just a small school of fish (yes, that's the proper name) in the large Programming Sea, so we won't do a lot), we can try to mold around the current environment and take advantage of it and market ourselves that way. It's easier to convince already existing Pascal programmers that have done Turbo Pascal since the dawn of time than new people, and the latter group is what we should be focusing on. Lazarus does not look complicated. It has it own distinctive look & feel. User should be able to completely detach windows from from main so it would be possible to move them to different monitor, virtual desktop & freely move on monitor. You might've not realized that, but this is *foreign* and totally different from how most IDEs out there function. If you're familiar with Delphi 7 and lower, great, this feels natural, but the problem is that other IDEs aren't like Delphi 7. Lazarus is still stuck in that era, and that's /fine/ (at least, as far as the old Pascal devs are concerned), but I see most people around me (beginners and otherwise) immediately dock the IDE or ask me how to do it. Not to mention that it immediately fails to function for tiling window managers. And "distinctive look and feel" doesn't mean said look and feel is intuitive. I believe it would be better if Lazarus was docked by default and give the option to easily undock it, because far more beginners or curious people would want to dock it, it's a better default. If you don't believe me, please look at as many IDEs as you can and tell me *one* that's undocked like Lazarus is. It genuinely is something unusual and jarring to newcomers. Maybe there's a reason most other IDEs are docked, and even if you disagree with that particular decision, it would be hard to deny the reality that it's how people expect IDEs today to be structured. Even *RAD Studio* gave up on the idea. Happy birthday 2002! -- Stefan-Iulian Alecu ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
Stefan-Iulian Alecu via fpc-pascal schrieb am Mi., 16. Okt. 2024, 16:08: > I am aware of your work. As long as you still depend on CodeTools and > Lazarus internals, the language server can't be called independent. > The point of using CodeTools is that they are kept fairly up to date with what the compiler supports and even across different versions of the compiler. Completly implementing one's own language parser is essential unnecessary duplicated work considering that we don't have easy pickings regarding personpower. Also once a CodeTools driven language server would be usable enough one might argue for having it used by the Lazarus IDE as well (assuming the language server protocol can support everything that the current direct use of CodeTools supports), thus possibly moving CodeTools and the language server out of the Lazarus IDE. Regards, Sven > ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
Sorry, but there has been so much nonsense in this thread, I just had to add my 2c as well. On 10/15/2024 4:07 PM, Rainer Stratmann via fpc-pascal wrote: At the Lazarus Congress in Cologne in October 2024, it ended up being very interesting. An important question came up. Why are no new users coming to Lazarus/Freepascal? Why do we find it so difficult? How can we get new, younger users to come to us? The same questions came up over a year ago at a Freepascal/Lazarus meeting in Backnang. I have some answers: - The official Freepascal website doesn't look like the project is very lively. An absolute non-factor. Yes, the "Latest News" seems to be dated, but then I would prefer people involved in the project work on compiler related issues rather than on web sites. The latest FPC announcement is now 3 years ago, but then the overall release cycle is much slower than on a lot of other projects, but by and large, I could consider this a good thing - Lazarus looks very complicated with its many windows. And it is also relatively complicated to understand and use. There are too many options that are too nested. Well, what is so complicated about it? Of course, you need to know what you are doing. Maybe some windows could be hidden until they might be used (like Watches, Evaluate/modify, or debugger), and they are easily activated from the Window menu. But if you are really programming, it actually make sense. Is Lazarus "perfect"? Probably not, but IMHO, it is light years better and easier to use like abominations like Visual Studio (Code, yes, I know they are not the same) or any of that Eclipse based stuff. And definitely FAR more lightweight than any of those. - Crosscompiling: The compiler file name is hidden in Tools - Settings instead of in the project settings. I found this out after some time. Since it was nowhere to be found in the project settings I first thought it might be hard- coded! That doesn't make any sense! Yeah, cross-compiling could be made it bit more obvious, but then in a lot of the "alternatives", you can't cross-compile at all. And then, if you properly design your software, this isn't a task that you do a couple of dozen times and hour... - Linux: All relevant files (executable files, configuration files, source code, etc.) are scattered all over the Linux system. This is very complicated again. If Lazarus/Freepascal were a Linux system program it would make sense. But it is NOT a Linux system program. The chance that it will be used by several users on a multi-user system is close to zero. non-issue IMHP - Fpcupdeluxe: A good idea. But it doesn't work. I have tried to install an AVR crosscompiler on a Linux system. Fatal: Can't find unit Infodrwf used by Project1. And ‘Project1’ does not use any unit at all. don't care, never used it in all the years that I am using FPC (going back when it was still called FPK) and Lazarus. - For a new installation of Lazarus: The most important quick start icons have to be configured again at the bottom of the source code window. So that fast and smooth work is possible. Instead of placing them like this from the start. The many confusing windows I have already mentioned above. You completely lost me on this one 😕 As good as Freepascal is. The situation described above is a brake pad and sooner or later leads to a dead end. Maybe you need to look at your overall approach to (application) programming, not as FPC/Lazarus being another Python (or whatever is the rad programming language de jour) My tip is to put all the required files in one directory. This also makes it easier to install an installation on the different systems. Only one ZIP file is then required. And you can even install it without internet access. I don't see the general problem here. By and large, FPC (and Lazarus) is installed rather quickly. What I however miss is an option to transfer a (general) configuration from one system to another, specially between different OS, as I do most of my work on Windows 1[0,1] but some of my application also need to be tested and worked on on Linux or macOS. This cross-platform capability is IMHO one of the reasons why you couldn't just "put everything into one directory". The directory structure, including permissions, is simply different for each of them. If I would have some serious complains, it would be that in the last few years at least some of the developers have paid too much attention to include all those (supposedly) fancy new paradigms instead of the core of programming in Pascal. Even Object Pascal, though IMHO not every little thing needs to be put into objects/classes when there really isn't any gain from it. Some times, commonly used functions might be clearer and thus easier to understand and maintain written in procedural form. As far as Lazarus is concerned, the only thing that just keeps bugging me is that there is no ability to "just compile" a file that is cur
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
There is fpdoc, and the FPC docs are quite ok. The problem is contributors. In my experience (and in that of the people I brought along, as well as already existing devs around me), no, they aren't OK. They're passable at times, yes, but they aren't what I would call "good". I have been slowly going through the FP docs and improving this as I go on my private fork, once I get more time and go through everything I'll send a PR. This is one way people who might otherwise be scared of compiler code can contribute. Actually, there should probably be a call to action regarding contributors and tell people how to help either team (FP or Laz). I am sure there are people on the forums who would be more than glad to help, but are intimidated by the thought of dealing with compiler code, not knowing they can contribute with bug reports or docs. Or because we spread ourselves too thin. Having dreams of an ivory tower that somehow restores equilibrium ( new developers > old developers) is easy. Making the economics work is much harder. Attempting to whipold and tired Lazarus developers into submission to work on vscode plugins IMHO it doesn't make sense. In short, I think the new IDEs developers must come from the new developers ranks, those who actually believe in it. I mentioned that, in the previous quotation you used. We can't expect people that are already working on the compiler and Lazarus to also work on VSCode extensions and whatnot, that's absurd for plenty of reasons. Nothing good can come out of overworking the current team, so this is a call to the community (that should be made on the forums too, I am sick of repeating the same message over on the "Unofficial" Free Pascal Discord server) to help. We all have to realize that nobody will implement these things for us, and complaining is easy when you're just a bystander unwilling to contribute. I have discussed these things with the Discord server and have started a GitHub org for this purpose (strictly speaking focused on Object Pascal as a whole, but it's a cover-up to work on things related to Free Pascal for now). But this shouldn't be a one man project, it should involve /everyone/, so the CtA in the first paragraph is even more important. -- Stefan-Iulian Alecu ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] Fwd: What to do to get new users
Prease DON'T add garbage collector. IMO it isn't a good idea. I had very bad experiences with it. Unless somebody found a new magic algorithm in the last decade... El Wed, 16 Oct 2024 04:49:44 -0700 Hairy Pixels via fpc-pascal escribió: > On Oct 16, 2024 at 4:44:35 PM, Nikolay Nikolov via fpc-pascal < > fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org> wrote: > > > > > On 10/16/24 6:00 AM, Hairy Pixels via fpc-pascal wrote: > > > > FPC is not keeping up with trends in the industry which new > > programmings want despite all the older programmers who are settled > > in their ways. Even if there is a market for Lazarus type apps > > people in 2024 don’t want to use a massive legacy IDE and prefer > > better tools like VSCode. > > > > What trends, exactly? Can you be more specific? > > > > The biggest thing I see stopping new programmers from using Pascal is > some form of automatic memory management. ARC, garbage collector, > smart pointers or even RAII. That right there is a killer if you ask > me. Even people who want to high performance will use C++ instead of > Pascal for this reason. > > > If you want to use FPC these days what does a new user do? If they > follow > > tutorials on YouTube they expect to have some VSCode package > > installed easily and start working that way. FPC of course has no > > official support for this and it’s hard to get my language server > > and it’s buggy due to CodeTools (a user created project with no > > official backing AFAIK). > > > > If you think that way, then maybe create your own VSCode plugin for > > Pascal. What "official backing" do you expect, exactly? There's no > > such thing as "official backing". There are things that users care > > enough about to donate their development time and work on them. > > That's how open source works. How is it CodeTools' fault that your > > language server is buggy? Did you submit merge requests with fixes? > > Did they get rejected? > > It’s no one's fault there’s just not enough people working on these > things. I tried to make a language server and a plugin even for > VSCode but it’s hard to use and not clear for new users. Sorry I > dont’ have the time either. > > As for the language I think for GUI apps programmers don’t need or > want a > > manual memory managed language like Pascal and would prefer > > something like C#. In general the ease of programming is not there > > in Pascal compared to other languages and the community is > > extremely resistant to change. > > > > Do you have a garbage collection proposal for Pascal? > > > > Free Pascal has a JVM target that supports garbage collection and > > pretty much nobody is using it. Why do you think that is? > > > I don’t even know how to use that! I assume it’s not something you > just enable on any program. I’ve never seen programs adopt it. > > I don’t think it’s hard to see Pascal are simply going to get old and > die > > at this point. I even had an old time programmer contact me and say > > how much more productive he is with Swift when writing macOS apps > > now so quit using FPC. There’s lots of reason for this so FPC would > > need to be actively learning and making changes to keep pace. > > > > One developer moving from one language to another is pretty > > anecdotal. IMO, Swift is a pretty decent language, but there's > > nothing entirely original or amazing for Object Pascal developers. > > It's an improvement over C, C++, Objective C, etc, but not so much > > over Object Pascal. What is it about Swift, that makes your old > > time friend more productive when writing macOS apps? Is it really > > the language, or is it the Apple IDE and framework? If it's the > > latter, there's a cost to that, your app isn't multiplatform, you > > need to rewrite it, if you want to support other platforms. Apple > > has no incentive in making that process easy. > > Swift has a ton of features that Pascal doesn’t have which the kind > UI apps which Apple supports. We could spend hours going over > everything but I’m just saying a new programmer would look at Swift > vs Pascal and choose Swift. > > The bigger problem is of course support for Apples frameworks. Once > the platform chooses a language like Apple does it kind of kills > everything else. Even popular languages like C# don’t compete so I > don’t expect Pascal to come out ahead her either. > > > > Too many details to go into but there’s myriad problems that would > > need to be addressed. > > > > Unlike others, your post is so negative and so vague and light in > > details it almost looks like trolling. > > > Sorry to be negative I’m just sounding the alarm. I’ve watched the > community dwindle over the years and people move on and new > programmers adopt new languages. It’s clearly going in the wrong > direction as noted by the original post. Am I wrong? > > Best regards, > > > > Nikolay > > > > > > -- Forwarded message - > > From: Rainer Stratmann via fpc-pascal > > Date: Oct 16, 2024 at 6:07:5
Re: [fpc-pascal] What to do to get new users
On 10/16/2024 2:38 PM, Stefan-Iulian Alecu via fpc-pascal wrote: Lazarus does not look complicated. It has it own distinctive look & feel. User should be able to completely detach windows from from main so it would be possible to move them to different monitor, virtual desktop & freely move on monitor. You might've not realized that, but this is *foreign* and totally different from how most IDEs out there function. If you're familiar with Delphi 7 and lower, great, this feels natural, but the problem is that other IDEs aren't like Delphi 7. Lazarus is still stuck in that era, and that's /fine/ (at least, as far as the old Pascal devs are concerned), but I see most people around me (beginners and otherwise) immediately dock the IDE or ask me how to do it. Not to mention that it immediately fails to function for tiling window managers. And "distinctive look and feel" doesn't mean said look and feel is intuitive. Sorry, but do you really suggest that Lazarus should intentionally adjust itself to the shortcomings of other IDEs? Being able to move windows around over multiple (2 or 3) monitors is the most effective way to work., like one screen for the source code/object inspector, once screen for the program output and one for all debug related windows. Everything easily in view, no need to move around (or resize) windows like stupid, just because what you want to see is somewhere in a docked and minimized window... I believe it would be better if Lazarus was docked by default and give the option to easily undock it, because far more beginners or curious people would want to dock it, it's a better default. If you don't believe me, please look at as many IDEs as you can and tell me *one* that's undocked like Lazarus is. It genuinely is something unusual and jarring to newcomers. Maybe there's a reason most other IDEs are docked, and even if you disagree with that particular decision, it would be hard to deny the reality that it's how people expect IDEs today to be structured. Even *RAD Studio* gave up on the idea. Happy birthday 2002! Again, just because other IDEs do it differently doesn't mean that this is in fact the best way to go. It's IMHO rather a result that other IDEs (which are mostly somehow web browser based) don't handle undocked windows properly... Ralf ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
