Re: [Evolution] The system of levels, badges and presents of Discourse
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 08:59 +0200, Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list wrote: > By closing individual mailman mailing lists and replacing it with a > single forum, everything is under control of a single authority. Rest assured that the mailing lists hosted on mail.gnome.org are technically also "under control of a single authority" - the same one. > There even isn't the need to moderate or ban users with unwanted opinions, > since the users are educated by levels, badges and presents. That's neither logical nor based on a correct assumption. It's not about "banning users with unwanted opinions" but about Code of Conduct. > IOW all users are under general suspicion to express unwanted > opinions, hence everybody is moderated by a credit system. This > Chinese alike approach has nothing to do with the "libre" in FLOSS. I retroactively apologize that we had a Points system in GNOME Bugzilla (before GitLab) which gave an impression how experienced and active a user is. Must have been pretty horrible if I understand you correctly. > There are valid reasons to moderate or ban a user, but usually such a > user is barred by an individual part of a project, not by the whole > universe and before it happens a user must have expressed something that > is unwanted. We also ban users in GNOME GitLab etc if they violate the GNOME Code of Conduct. There are many universes out there, nothing new. Cheers, andre -- Andre Klapper | ak...@gmx.net https://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/ ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] The system of levels, badges and presents of Discourse
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 09:48 +0200, Andre Klapper wrote: > I wrote: > > There even isn't the need to moderate or ban users with unwanted > > opinions, since the users are educated by levels, badges and > > presents. > > That's neither logical nor based on a correct assumption. It's not > about "banning users with unwanted opinions" but about Code of > Conduct. Hi, it isn't a CoC that we can't send a support request before we reached Level 1 and got our first present, without offending anything at all. We probably can join the gift of Level 1 by adding a few "Like it, thumb up, 5 of 5 stars" to some GNOME-ish oddities that more or less nobody likes. This is the whole point of a social credit system, well, there are other odd points this gamification does introduce, so it's at least one of the points this system is about. It isn't a code of conduct that those who joined the gift of Level 1, soon reach the maximum number of replies and need to wait a day before they can continue. The correct term is "despotism". You are comparing oranges with bananas. If somebody does violate the real CoC of this mailing list, maybe by continuously calling other subscribers names, the user gets banned from this mailing list, but not from the Gimp or any other GNOME related mailing list. We generally do this in our societies. If somebody gets barred for shop theft by one food shop, this person is still allowed to buy food in another shop, hence there is no need steel the food purchases from grannies in the streets. In a free and social society this approach makes a lot of sense. In my hometown I'm allowed to write an email to the mayors without gaining a "Level" and while all food shops are under the German law, they all are still individual food shops allowed to make individual decision. This is like the difference between individual mailing lists for individual parts of the GNOME project and one forum for everything. My claims make a lot of sense and you are aware of it, hence I will not continue to argue. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] The system of levels, badges and presents of Discourse
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 10:30 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > It isn't a code of conduct that those who joined the gift of Level 1, > soon reach the maximum number of replies and need to wait a day before > they can continue. The correct term is "despotism". PS: Andre, I'm really upset about your prevarication, since I was not allowed to send an email opening a new thread at Level 0, without offending a CoC. Pete who has got Level 1 send too many emails. How much are too man emails? Probably a user at Level one offends the CoC by sending 1 request at each to just a few of all GNOME apps, https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps . ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] The system of levels, badges and presents of Discourse
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 10:56 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > Andre, I'm really upset about your prevarication Thanks for getting personal again (after "My claims make a lot of sense and you are aware of it") instead of concentrating on arguments, no matter how over the top (uhm, "Chinese rating systems") they are. :) Cheers, andre -- Andre Klapper | ak...@gmx.net https://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/ ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] The system of levels, badges and presents of Discourse
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 11:36 +0200, Andre Klapper wrote:
> On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 10:56 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> > Andre, I'm really upset about your prevarication
>
> Thanks for getting personal again (after "My claims make a lot of sense
> and you are aware of it") instead of concentrating on arguments, no
> matter how over the top (uhm, "Chinese rating systems") they are. :)
Hi,
you claim that a comparison with
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System#Scoring_mechanism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System#Reward_and_punishment
is overdone, but it isn't.
"MIT Professor Kevin Slavin has described business research into
gamification as flawed and misleading for those unfamiliar with gaming.
Heather Chaplin, writing in Slate, describes gamification as "an
allegedly populist idea that actually benefits corporate interests over
those of ordinary people"." -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamification#Criticism
It's the same mechanism, with the same goal. At the moment the
consequences are disastrous for those living a country like China. For
users of GNOME mailing lists the consequences of moving to the
gamification approach is by far not such disastrous, as the >Chinese
credit system, but I never claimed something like this. I was talking
about an "approach" ("Chinese alike approach"). This is not over the
top. In the end market leaders, GNOME belongs to this category, try to
manipulate in the same way. The Internet is kind of an international
country and this oddity just started, it might lead to something even
more worse, than the Social Credit System of China is today.
Regards,
Ralf
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[Evolution] Discourse and the situation for Mailman lists hosted by Gnome.org
What other Gnome lists (analogous to evolution-list) are currently scrambling with the abrupt decision to switch to discourse? This will be helpful to know if one is trying to convince a major organization to step up and host evolution and possibly brethren too. Thanks, David ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Discourse and the situation for Mailman lists hosted by Gnome.org
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 06:50 -0400, dfc via evolution-list wrote: > What other Gnome lists (analogous to evolution-list) are currently > scrambling with the abrupt decision to switch to discourse? > > This will be helpful to know if one is trying to convince a major > organization to step up and host evolution and possibly brethren > too. To be clear: to host evolution-list and other *-list ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Discourse and the situation for Mailman lists hosted by Gnome.org
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 06:50 -0400, dfc via evolution-list wrote: > What other Gnome lists (analogous to evolution-list) are currently > scrambling with the abrupt decision to switch to discourse? Hi, all GNOME mailing lists are affected, https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo . I don't know if the majority of subscribers to all mailing lists are upset, but it's a point at https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list/ . What? MC is GNOME? I'm not surprised that the users are pissed off, too, see https://mail.gnome.org/archives/mc/ . Note, not everybody already noticed what's going on. Forwarded Message From: [...] To: ubuntu-us...@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: GNOME drops mailing lists end of this month Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2022 00:05:20 +0800 "[snip] Unfortunately, as I have found today,, this also applies to the The GIMP mailing list. I had not realised that The GIMP is gnome - I had thought the G stood for GNU, not gnome. It is sad that The GIMP is now tainted by the gnomes' actions. [snip]" Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Discourse and the situation for Mailman lists hosted by Gnome.org
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 06:50 -0400, dfc via evolution-list wrote: > What other Gnome lists (analogous to evolution-list) are currently > scrambling with the abrupt decision to switch to discourse? > The full list is at https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo with archives here https://mail.gnome.org/archives/ Many of the lists are probably not active - certainly the gnome-* lists would almost certainly already be using Discourse and many of the others are extremely low volume and would probably be better suited to Discourse. But they are all being turned off in 7 days. Interestingly there is no mention on mail.gnome.org that the lists are going away! The PTB would all say that this is not abrupt. They've been planning this for a long time and we would have known if we were good Gnome citizens and looked at the correct lists. It's our own fault for not planning ahead. P. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Discourse and the situation for Mailman lists hosted by Gnome.org
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 12:31 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: > The PTB would all say that this is not abrupt. ^^^ Pass the bong :D What is PTB for? ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
[Evolution] Let's unite the power of all mailing list subscribers who are affected by GNOME's ruling
Hi,
I'm a long time Evolution mailing list subscriber, who just recently
subscribed to the gimp and mc mailing list, since we all suffer from the
decision that the GNOME mailing lists get shut down this month.
Reading the MC archive I noticed the question regarding groups.io. If
it's free as in beer or not depends on the count of subscribers and the
needed storage space. In short, it likely is not for free as in beer.
I opened a ticket with a request at
https://support.riseup.net/en/ticket/3227QJ76OfCW7Ci7 .
On the Evolution mailing list a user asked
"What other Gnome lists (analogous to evolution-list) are currently
scrambling with the abrupt decision to switch to discourse?
[snip]" -
https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/2022-October/msg00294.html
Let's unite our power{,lessness}!
Regards,
Ralf
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Re: [Evolution] Discourse and the situation for Mailman lists hosted by Gnome.org
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 13:45 +0200, Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list wrote: > On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 12:31 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: > > The PTB would all say that this is not abrupt. > ^^^ > Pass the bong :D > > What is PTB for? The "Powers That Be". Usually reserved for faceless people who make decisions for what they perceive to be the best interests of other people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_powers_that_be#:~:text=In%20idiomatic%20English%2C%20%22the%20powers,rather%20than%20a%20subjunctive%20be. P. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Discourse and the situation for Mailman lists hosted by Gnome.org
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 13:13 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: > On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 13:45 +0200, Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list > wrote: > > On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 12:31 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: > > > The PTB would all say that this is not abrupt. > > ^^^ > > Pass the bong :D > > > > What is PTB for? > > The "Powers That Be". Usually reserved for faceless people who make > decisions for what they perceive to be the best interests of other > people. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_powers_that_be#:~:text=In%20idiomatic%20English%2C%20%22the%20powers,rather%20than%20a%20subjunctive%20be. Hi thank you, the Wiki link leads to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmo3HFa2vjg ,a nice example that fighting the power is possible. Not necessarily this band, but a lot of bands from this genre are using one of the best record players, that was discontinued by the company. After a petition it's manufactured again, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technics_SL-1200#Re-launch_petition . Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Discourse and the situation for Mailman lists hosted by Gnome.org
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 13:13 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: > > The "Powers That Be". Usually reserved for faceless people who make > decisions for what they perceive to be the best interests of other > people. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_powers_that_be#:~:text=In%20idiomatic%20English%2C%20%22the%20powers,rather%20than%20a%20subjunctive%20be > . > > > P. > I don't have much of a dog in this fight. I subscribed to this list because I had a specific question (which folk helped me with quickly, and thanks to all) -- and then just never bothered to unsubscribe. I read about 20% of the stuff that rolls by. I read it as a general educational experience. I have worked with a number of professional organizations that are maintained primarily by volunteer staff and effort. The "powers that be" are usually people who are doing a lot of work for free -- even if the people at the very top are being paid a little. Sometimes that's because they believe in a "cause," sometimes because they like being the expert at something, sometimes because they like being a useful part of an organization. But whatever the gain, it's still for free. For these people (including me in my organizations) one driving issue is ease of accomplishing whatever task it is they have to do. If I spend 20 hours a week working on a committee and I figure out a way to do the same work in 10 hours, I'm all for it. And if that savings of 10 hours means that the users have to spend an extra 5 minutes a week each, that's a sacrifice I'm willing for them to make. Plus, it's easier to recruit someone to help if it takes 10 hours of their time rather than 20. Another thing that drives this is what the volunteers are comfortable with. If I volunteer to run a mailing list (and I do), it's not going to be on Windows and it *will* be mailman3, because I've installed and run mailman3 and run it on multiple platforms and I feel comfortable with it. So if someone were to come to me in one of my organizations and say "Hey, Bill, we need to set up a mailing list." I'd say "Sure, as long as it's mailman3 on Debian." But, if I were a fan of Discourse, what I would say was "Sure, as long as it's on Discourse." I strongly suspect that the reason this change is being made is not for some nefarious "control" reason or some bad goal. I suspect that its about making it easier for whoever is volunteering to keep this stuff going. The solution is almost never for non-volunteers to grumble. The solution is usually to become that free labor and be the guy or gal who says "Sure, as long as it's mailman3." ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Discourse and the situation for Mailman lists hosted by Gnome.org
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 09:20 -0400, William Oliver wrote: > I strongly suspect that the reason this change is being made is not for > some nefarious "control" reason or some bad goal. I suspect that its > about making it easier for whoever is volunteering to keep this stuff > going. Hi, if so, why was it possible to sent the announcement to the mailing lists at 20 Oct 2022, but impossible to do it earlier, to give the communities a chance to run their own lists? The moderators and subscribers of the lists hosted by GNOME are volunteers, too. "They" gave us less than 2 weeks to find a solution that satisfies another part of the communities. The non-profit GNOME Foundation is not a small project by a few coders, it is a relatively huge foundation. All support forums of proprietary software, let alone FLOSS software, that I know, stay away from gamification, "an allegedly populist idea that actually benefits corporate interests over those of ordinary people" [1]. GNOME is the only exception that I know, that only provides support by Discourse. I've seen that FreeBSD has a Discourse forum, too, but they continue with all kinds of other support channels. FreeBSD has a way better reason to discontinue Mailman, since it's more or less impossible to port Mailman 3 to a FreeBSD servers, hence they simply migrated to another mailing list software. You might be right, but your guess isn't evident. It's hard to believe that you are right. I have got valid doubts. Regards, Ralf [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamification#Criticism ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Discourse and the situation for Mailman lists hosted by Gnome.org
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 13:13 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: > On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 13:45 +0200, Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list > wrote: > > On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 12:31 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: > > > The PTB would all say that this is not abrupt. > > ^^^ > > Pass the bong :D > > > > What is PTB for? > > The "Powers That Be". Usually reserved for faceless people who make > decisions for what they perceive to be the best interests of other > people. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_powers_that_be#:~:text=In%20idiomatic%20English%2C%20%22the%20powers,rather%20than%20a%20subjunctive%20be > . See also PHB: Pointy Haired Boss poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Discourse and the situation for Mailman lists hosted by Gnome.org
> > I have worked with a number of professional organizations that are > maintained primarily by volunteer staff and effort. The "powers that > be" are usually people who are doing a lot of work for free -- even if > the people at the very top are being paid a little. Sometimes that's > because they believe in a "cause," sometimes because they like being > the expert at something, sometimes because they like being a useful > part of an organization. But whatever the gain, it's still for free. Except Gnome is a Foundation and it is supported by a large number of very large tech companies. Most of the infrastructure is provided by Redhat and they have a large presence on the Gnome Foundation board. The people are not volunteers. They are paid either by the Foundation through donations or are seconded to the role by their employer. Companies such as Redhat rely so much on Gnome, it is in their best interests to keep it running smoothly. That's not to say that there aren't volunteers involved, of course there is, but the decisions such as this come from the Foundation Board which consists of representatives from the sponsors and elected people from the community. I think what disappoints me most is that some of the people have roles that include community engagement, and that has clearly not happened. There was never any discussion about this as far as any of the mailing list members were aware. It just landed on our doorstep. > > I strongly suspect that the reason this change is being made is not for > some nefarious "control" reason or some bad goal. I suspect that its > about making it easier for whoever is volunteering to keep this stuff > going. *I* don't think it is for control. I think it's because nobody was interested in dealing with the issues of Mailman within the Foundation. They had a tool - Discourse - that looked to them to be perfectly adequate and decided that there was no reason to spend resources and manpower on keeping the lists going. I really get the feeling that they are bewildered by the push-back they are getting from some of the mailing lists. I think some of the decision has been driven by the perception that mailing lists are "old technology" and have had their day. Comments I've seen in other places clearly show that email is looked down on as being inferior to other messaging platforms. The problem with following fads such as this is that there'll be another one along soon. Ultimately, as with all big institutions and change, there is no real concern over individuals. The attitude is often "make the change and fix the issues after" or "they'll grouch but they'll get over it - we might break some things but overall it will be worth it"; unfortunately the "some things" may be a minor part of the whole, but they are everything to some individuals. > > The solution is almost never for non-volunteers to grumble. The > solution is usually to become that free labor and be the guy or gal who > says "Sure, as long as it's mailman3." Or walk away knowing that there's no point in continuing. P. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Discourse and the situation for Mailman lists hosted by Gnome.org
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 16:09 +0200, Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list wrote: > On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 09:20 -0400, William Oliver wrote: > > ... > FreeBSD has a way better reason to discontinue Mailman, since it's > more > or less impossible to port Mailman 3 to a FreeBSD servers, hence they > simply migrated to another mailing list software. > What other existing mailing list software can be used if Mailman is unavailable? Is Lyris suitable? What features (technically speaking) must the platform possess? ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Discourse and the situation for Mailman lists hosted by Gnome.org
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 11:01 -0400, dfc wrote: > What other existing mailing list software can be used if Mailman is > unavailable? Is Lyris suitable? What features (technically speaking) > must the platform possess? Hi, I can't answer those questions. However, Linux server can run Mailman 3 without issues. See https://lists.archlinux.org/mailman3/lists/arch-general.lists.archlinux.org/ and at the bottom click "Postorius Documentation", it shows: "Requirements Postorius requires Python 3.7+. The minimum Django version is 3.2. Postorius needs a running version of GNU Mailman version 3.3.5." FWIW https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list/2022-October/msg00057.html Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Discourse and the situation for Mailman lists hosted by Gnome.org
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 11:01 -0400, dfc via evolution-list wrote: > What other existing mailing list software can be used if Mailman is > unavailable? Just to reiterate and clarify, there is no "Mailman is unavailable" situation. Mailman has versions that support Python2 and Python3, and Python2 is still supported in many places (but maybe not in Gnome land). Gnome appears to be blaming python2 and Mailman, but it really seems that Gnome just really wants to give up email support in favor of support via web browser (with future ads, click tracking, data harvesting, etc?). I've offered to host, for Gnome, for free, everything they currently have at mail.gnome.org (all they would have to do is switch DNS for the subdomain mail.gnome.org to my systems and provide me with a copy of their current Mailman2 lists and archives). I've been doing Mailman2 mailinglists for 2 decades, and have tons of experience in this area. Sadly, no one from Gnome has contacted me to take me up on this offer. -Jim P. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Discourse and the situation for Mailman lists hosted by Gnome.org
Hi, it's worth to forward this [1] to other GNOME mailing lists. Regards, Ralf [1] Forwarded Message To: evolution-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Evolution] Discourse and the situation for Mailman lists hosted by Gnome.org Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2022 11:19:21 -0400 On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 11:01 -0400, dfc via evolution-list wrote: > What other existing mailing list software can be used if Mailman is > unavailable? Just to reiterate and clarify, there is no "Mailman is unavailable" situation. Mailman has versions that support Python2 and Python3, and Python2 is still supported in many places (but maybe not in Gnome land). Gnome appears to be blaming python2 and Mailman, but it really seems that Gnome just really wants to give up email support in favor of support via web browser (with future ads, click tracking, data harvesting, etc?). I've offered to host, for Gnome, for free, everything they currently have at mail.gnome.org (all they would have to do is switch DNS for the subdomain mail.gnome.org to my systems and provide me with a copy of their current Mailman2 lists and archives). I've been doing Mailman2 mailinglists for 2 decades, and have tons of experience in this area. Sadly, no one from Gnome has contacted me to take me up on this offer. -Jim P. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Discourse and the situation for Mailman lists hosted by Gnome.org
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 15:35 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: > > I have worked with a number of professional organizations that are > > maintained primarily by volunteer staff and effort. The "powers > > that > > be" are usually people who are doing a lot of work for free -- even > > if > > the people at the very top are being paid a little. Sometimes > > that's > > because they believe in a "cause," sometimes because they like > > being > > the expert at something, sometimes because they like being a useful > > part of an organization. But whatever the gain, it's still for > > free. > > Except Gnome is a Foundation and it is supported by a large number of > very large tech companies. Most of the infrastructure is provided by > Redhat and they have a large presence on the Gnome Foundation board. > What I can't understand is that all the Fedora lists, some of which I am on, continue to be run via Mailman, and presumably by staff that work for RedHat. This doesn't look to me like a RedHat decision. poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Discourse and the situation for Mailman lists hosted by Gnome.org
Some Fedora lists has been moved to the Fedora Discourse however, and some lists are still there, i think Matt knows more On 10/23/22, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 15:35 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: >> > I have worked with a number of professional organizations that are >> > maintained primarily by volunteer staff and effort. The "powers >> > that >> > be" are usually people who are doing a lot of work for free -- even >> > if >> > the people at the very top are being paid a little. Sometimes >> > that's >> > because they believe in a "cause," sometimes because they like >> > being >> > the expert at something, sometimes because they like being a useful >> > part of an organization. But whatever the gain, it's still for >> > free. >> >> Except Gnome is a Foundation and it is supported by a large number of >> very large tech companies. Most of the infrastructure is provided by >> Redhat and they have a large presence on the Gnome Foundation board. >> > > What I can't understand is that all the Fedora lists, some of which I > am on, continue to be run via Mailman, and presumably by staff that > work for RedHat. This doesn't look to me like a RedHat decision. > > poc > ___ > evolution-list mailing list > evolution-list@gnome.org > To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list > ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Discourse and the situation for Mailman lists hosted by Gnome.org
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 16:40 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 15:35 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: > > > I have worked with a number of professional organizations that > > > are > > > maintained primarily by volunteer staff and effort. The "powers > > > that > > > be" are usually people who are doing a lot of work for free -- > > > even > > > if > > > the people at the very top are being paid a little. Sometimes > > > that's > > > because they believe in a "cause," sometimes because they like > > > being > > > the expert at something, sometimes because they like being a > > > useful > > > part of an organization. But whatever the gain, it's still for > > > free. > > > > Except Gnome is a Foundation and it is supported by a large number > > of > > very large tech companies. Most of the infrastructure is provided > > by > > Redhat and they have a large presence on the Gnome Foundation > > board. > > > > What I can't understand is that all the Fedora lists, some of which I > am on, continue to be run via Mailman, and presumably by staff that > work for RedHat. This doesn't look to me like a RedHat decision. I've posted a question to the Fedora Users list: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/us...@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/XXRBCEM3UQSLPPITR5L27HRPER3HZZHM/ Note that the list also has a web interface (HyperKitty), which is different from Discourse. Hooray for consistency. poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Discourse and the situation for Mailman lists hosted by Gnome.org
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 11:19 -0400, Jim Popovitch via evolution-list wrote: > On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 11:01 -0400, dfc via evolution-list wrote: > > What other existing mailing list software can be used if Mailman is > > unavailable? > > ... > I've offered to host, for Gnome, for free, everything they currently > have at mail.gnome.org (all they would have to do is switch DNS for > the > subdomain mail.gnome.org to my systems and provide me with a copy of > their current Mailman2 lists and archives). I've been doing Mailman2 > mailinglists for 2 decades, and have tons of experience in this area. > Sadly, no one from Gnome has contacted me to take me up on this > offer. > That is unfortunate and it seems like a generous offer on your part. How long have they been silent about that offer? ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Let's unite the power of all mailing list subscribers who are affected by GNOME's ruling
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 17:57 +0200, Yury V. Zaytsev wrote: > * groups.io - way too expensive for us > * riseup.net - political organization > * Google Groups - free, no positive / negative experience > * Freedesktop - maybe they could accept a couple of low-traffic lists? > > If other lists find a good solution, please let us know. Thanks! Hi Yury, thank you for the summary. If something good should happen, I'll let you know. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Discourse and the situation for Mailman lists hosted by Gnome.org
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 12:12 -0400, dfc wrote: > On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 11:19 -0400, Jim Popovitch via evolution-list > wrote: > > On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 11:01 -0400, dfc via evolution-list wrote: > > > What other existing mailing list software can be used if Mailman is > > > unavailable? > > > > > > ... > > > I've offered to host, for Gnome, for free, everything they currently > > have at mail.gnome.org (all they would have to do is switch DNS for > > the > > subdomain mail.gnome.org to my systems and provide me with a copy of > > their current Mailman2 lists and archives). I've been doing Mailman2 > > mailinglists for 2 decades, and have tons of experience in this area. > > Sadly, no one from Gnome has contacted me to take me up on this > > offer. > > > > That is unfortunate and it seems like a generous offer on your part. > > How long have they been silent about that offer? > I don't think I've been silent about it, although I haven't been overly chatty about it either. I only found out about this issue at the same time everyone else here did. I mentioned the offer in a post, and then a follow-up post, both on this past Thursday. -Jim P. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
[Evolution] New mailing list
Hello. For those who are interested, see https://groups.io/g/evolution-users It is now, up to you to decide what you want to do. .. Bret Busby Armadale West Australia (UTC+0800) .. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] New mailing list
Signed up On Sun, Oct 23, 2022 at 6:51 PM Bret Busby wrote: > > Hello. > > For those who are interested, see > https://groups.io/g/evolution-users > > It is now, up to you to decide what you want to do. > > .. > Bret Busby > Armadale > West Australia > (UTC+0800) > .. > > > ___ > evolution-list mailing list > evolution-list@gnome.org > To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Let's unite the power of all mailing list subscribers who are affected by GNOME's ruling
Dnia 23.10.2022 o godz. 18:15:49 Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list pisze: > On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 17:57 +0200, Yury V. Zaytsev wrote: > > * groups.io - way too expensive for us > > * riseup.net - political organization > > * Google Groups - free, no positive / negative experience > > * Freedesktop - maybe they could accept a couple of low-traffic lists? > > > > If other lists find a good solution, please let us know. Thanks! There's no problem with setting up a server with Mailman+Postfix and running a mailing list on it. For example I have Mailman ready and running on my personal server as I run a couple of very low-volume lists (but probably the capacity of my server is too low to run a busy list with a lot of subscribers). The problem is deliverability. The server's IP and domain needs to have good enough "reputation" for the messages to reach inboxes of all recipients (especially accounts at "big" mail providers like Google or Microsoft). For example, I have a constant problem with Google - emails sent from my server land in recipients' Spam folder on Gmail by default, despite the fact that no spam was ever sent from that server :(. Therefor we don't need just a server with mailing list software, we need a "known" server. ;) Someone offered here to host the list on Debian site. I think it would be the best option. As for Google Groups: Pros: 1) list is easy to set up 2) free regardless of number of subscribers 3) works quite reliably 4) good deliverability (almost nobody blocks mail from Google) 5) actually working web interface, one can participate in list via web, web interface can also serve as archive 6) theoretically there is an option to import subscribers list (but I don't know how Google will behave with 900 subscribers, it may interpret it as a spam attempt) Cons: 1) management web interface is limited in features compared to Mailman (for example you have no control over bounce processing, this is handled somehow automagically by Google's AI). 2) no option to import the archive from previous list (but GNOME folks said that the old archive will be kept, so it can be linked from list description) It's definitely not a bad choice, if you have no objections against hosting the list on Google. -- Regards, Jaroslaw Rafa r...@rafa.eu.org -- "In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub." ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] New mailing list
On Mon, 2022-10-24 at 00:51 +0800, Bret Busby wrote: > For those who are interested, see > https://groups.io/g/evolution-users > > It is now, up to you to decide what you want to do. I have no problems with people signing up to whatever they want, of course, but I have to say that I'm on one or two other groups.io lists and IMO it's not great. Messages arrive out of order, sometimes they never arrive (I get replies to messages I never saw), and often they take a very long time to arrive (compared to when they were sent). And, the threading is often all broken (although some of that can be attributed to the other people on the list: they are local neighborhood lists and there are lots of non-technical people who know nothing about the correct way to manage email, and are using really terrible mail software). As problematic as the Discourse email support is, I think I'd prefer it to groups.io. Maybe my experience is an outlier. I don't personally care about all the wingdings on Discourse since I don't plan to ever use the website. They can add all the badges and nonsense they want. I got promoted a level (I assume to level 1) just by visiting for a couple of days in a row (to mess with my config) and reading a few threads (to ensure I was getting the messages I wanted). I didn't have to "like" anything or use any emojis or anything like that. And I don't see much benefit in trying for more than that. I do believe that this move will result in a decrease in the usefulness and amount of discussion. It would be very interesting to come back in 6 or 12 months and compare the traffic to the current list versus the traffic in Evolution tag on Discourse; I hope someone does that check. Maybe it will be a net benefit, as people are more able to find and interact with the Discourse site. But my suspicion is it won't be. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] New mailing list
On Mon, 2022-10-24 at 00:51 +0800, Bret Busby wrote: > https://groups.io/g/evolution-users > Thank you Bret, I tied subscribing several times with silver.bullet at zoho.com by the groups.io website and one time by email. Until now I didn't receive a confirmation email. I checked the spam folder by the ISP's web interface, but it's empty. I'll wait a little bit longer and if necessary try to sign up with another email address. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] New mailing list
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 13:16 -0400, Paul Smith wrote: > I have no problems with people signing up to whatever they want, of > course, but [snip] Hi, I can't comment on groups.io and I dislike the idea of an unofficial mailing list. When Bret asked me off-list, if he should set up this list for Evolution, I replied that IMO it will be very helpful to have such a mailing list. It at least is good as a transitional solution. Keep in mind that evolution-list@gnome.org does only exist for another week. After this week we (those who will not use Discourse) need something to stay in contact, to find a solution. Regards, Ralf ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] New mailing list
On 24/10/22 01:18, Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list wrote: On Mon, 2022-10-24 at 00:51 +0800, Bret Busby wrote: https://groups.io/g/evolution-users Thank you Bret, I tied subscribing several times with silver.bullet at zoho.com by the groups.io website and one time by email. Until now I didn't receive a confirmation email. I checked the spam folder by the ISP's web interface, but it's empty. I'll wait a little bit longer and if necessary try to sign up with another email address. Regards, Ralf Hello, Ralf. The subscribing by replying to the invitation that I sent, appears to have worked, so, if anyone else has any difficulty subscribing, send me an email message, and, I will send an invitation, to try that, as a means to subscribe. .. Bret Busby Armadale West Australia (UTC+0800) .. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] New mailing list
On Mon, 2022-10-24 at 02:41 +0800, Bret Busby wrote: > subscribing by replying to the invitation that I sent, appears to > have worked Yes! ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] New mailing list
Set up new account. Lets see how it works (or not). Cheers. -Mensaje original- De: Bret Busby Para: evolution-list@gnome.org Asunto: [Evolution] New mailing list Fecha: Mon, 24 Oct 2022 00:51:04 +0800 Hello. For those who are interested, seehttps://groups.io/g/evolution-users It is now, up to you to decide what you want to do. ..Bret BusbyArmadaleWest Australia(UTC+0800).. ___evolution-list mailing listevolution-l...@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ...https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] New mailing list
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 19:09 +0200, Luna Jernberg via evolution-list wrote: > Signed up Me too. Brewster ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
[Evolution] Fwd: Re: Let's unite the power of all mailing list subscribers who are affected by GNOME's ruling
Forwarded Message From: Grzegorz Szymaszek To: m...@gnome.org Cc: Ralf Mardorf , gimp-user-l...@gnome.org, evolution-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Let's unite the power of all mailing list subscribers who are affected by GNOME's ruling Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2022 19:01:11 +0200 Hi, FWIW, since a few years, Mutt's mailing lists[1] are hosted at Oregon State University Open Source Lab[2]. From my limited experience, this solution works quite reliably. In general, they provide hosting of mailing lists and other services for free for open source projects[3]. Some alternatives off the top of my head to consider: - Debian mailing lists[4], - freedesktop.org, as already mentioned by Yuri, - SourceHut[5] (most likely paid). [1]: http://mutt.org/mail-lists.html [2]: https://osuosl.org/ [3]: https://osuosl.org/services/hosting/policy/ [4]: https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/HOWTO_start_list.en.html [5]: https://sourcehut.org/ Best of luck -- Grzegorz ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] New mailing list
I registered with the link in Bret's message and it worked. Thank you. IJ On Mon, 2022-10-24 at 02:41 +0800, Bret Busby wrote: > On 24/10/22 01:18, Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list wrote: > > On Mon, 2022-10-24 at 00:51 +0800, Bret Busby wrote: > > > https://groups.io/g/evolution-users > > > > > > > Thank you Bret, > > > > I tied subscribing several times with silver.bullet at zoho.com by > > the > > groups.io website and one time by email. Until now I didn't > > receive a > > confirmation email. I checked the spam folder by the ISP's web > > interface, but it's empty. > > > > I'll wait a little bit longer and if necessary try to sign up with > > another email address. > > > > Regards, > > Ralf > > > > Hello, Ralf. > > The subscribing by replying to the invitation that I sent, appears > to > have worked, so, if anyone else has any difficulty subscribing, send > me > an email message, and, I will send an invitation, to try that, as a > means to subscribe. > > .. > Bret Busby > Armadale > West Australia > (UTC+0800) > .. > > > ___ > evolution-list mailing list > evolution-list@gnome.org > To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list > ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
[Evolution] Authentication Failures
Evolution 3.40.4 (flatpak git04222ec) Linux Mint: 5.4.0-126-generic #142-Ubuntu DISTRIB_ID=LinuxMint DISTRIB_RELEASE=20.3 DISTRIB_CODENAME=una DISTRIB_DESCRIPTION="Linux Mint 20.3 Una Updated flatpak today and now I'm getting the following: Access blocked: Third-party app is using an unsupported OAuth method Google has safe ways for users to sign in and share their Google Account data with third-party applications. To help protect your account, Google sign-in requests are blocked from apps with less secure authorization methods because they’re more vulnerable to phishing and app impersonation attacks. Learn more about how your data is shared with third-party apps App sent an invalid request If the app is blocked because it uses an unsupported authorization method, you may be directed to an “Error 400” page that says “Access blocked: App sent an invalid request.” Info for app developers If your app uses the Loopback IP Address method for iOS, Android, and Chrome app OAuth client types or the Out-Of-Band method for any client type, you’ll need to migrate to a more secure alternative method. For detailed instructions, check the Out-Of-Band (OOO) flow migration guide and Loopback IP Address flow migration guide. At the present time, my sessions are valid until they need to be refreshed, at which point the above message appears. Currently, out of the 8 accounts I use Evolution for .. 3 are throwing the aforementioned error, the other 5 are still working. Any idea what verstion might have updates to address it ? ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] New mailing list
On Mon, 2022-10-24 at 00:51 +0800, Bret Busby wrote: > It is now, up to you to decide what you want to do. Joined, if for no other reason than to stay in touch if the curtain drops before some other (semi)permanent solution is in place. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] What do I do now?
On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 15:06 +0200, Ralf Mardorf via evolution-list wrote: > On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 13:55 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > > So the way to get it working as a proper mailing list is by turning off > > Mailing List Mode. So intuitive. > > Hi, > > yesno, even after doing so, it is not working as a proper mailing list. > The emails are still multipart messages with remote content, there's no > real archive etc... If a user unsubscribes from evolution-list@gnome.org > no posts are deleted from the archive. After deleting my Discourse > account, my posts disappeared. > > Regards, > Ralf The posts shouldn't disappear. According to a post in the Site feedback sub (I think it was), the post are anonymized when a user account is deleted. The posts however are not. I might have misunderstood this though. In any case, I'm two millimeters from just giving up on this whole Discourse thing because of Frustration(tm). With that in mind I'd like to say thanks already now, to all on this list who've helped me out during the last years when problems with Evolution has arised (notable - EWS, tenant stuff, Office365 etc), as well as others who've posted interesting stuff generally speaking. Without those posts and help, my Evolution Mail experience would have definitely been not very good. So give you all a pat on the shoulder from me, and again, great thanks! -- Sorin Srbu, Serverdrift Tele: 08-524 84166 Karolinska Institutet Universitetsbibliotek Avdelningen för Verksamhetsstöd Enheten för Teknikstöd och Bildproduktion # They say you can't buy happiness, but you can buy a # motorcycle, and that's pretty damn close! signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Evolution crashes when trying to compose email
On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 21:08 -0400, Ken Wright via evolution-list wrote: > I Googled how to install the most recent Flatpak, > and it appears to be working properly now. Hi, it would be still good to know what caused Evolution to freeze. I understood from your description that the app is not crashing, but it's frozen. That's slightly different thing. You can check what Evolution is doing (or what it is waiting for) when you run it under gdb. Ideally have installed debug information packages for glib, gtk3, libsoup3, evolution-data-server and evolution at least, then run: $ gdb evolution --ex r from a terminal. Once you reproduce the problem, switch to the terminal and press Ctrl+C, which will bring you to the gdb prompt, where you can run gdb commands. Two interesting are: (gdb) bt (gdb) t a a bt The first prints the backtrace of the current active thread, which might be the main/UI thread, which is blocked, thus the app is unresponsive for the desktop environment. The second prints backtrace for all threads, which gives a little idea what the app is doing. Please check the output for any private information, like passwords, email addresses, server addresses,... I usually search for "pass" at least (quotes for clarity only), before sharing it anywhere. You can either "continue" to keep the evolution running, or you can quit gdb with the "quit" command. Preceding lines from the gdb run can contain related information too, in a form of runtime warnings printed in the terminal. It's not those "Thread Created" nor "Thread Exited", which are printed by the gdb and whose is there a lot for sure. Bye, Milan ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
