[O] [bug] Org mode repo broken as of abbea596111611a945d73783b3e8790e76599740, org-element.el missing
In commit abbea596111611a945d73783b3e8790e76599740, the commit message starts with - Move org-element.el from contrib/lisp to lisp/. However, it looks like org-element.el just got deleted, not moved. This causes much badness when trying to rebuild.
Re: [O] Mindwave Emacs. EEG reading and Data gathering in an org-mode buffer.
Something this thread might be interested in. I proposed a project a couple of years ago called the Quantified Coder, basically looking at hooking as many biometrics as possible into emacs. There's a small presentation on it at http://www.openyou.org/2011/05/13/the-quantified-coder/ Unfortunately it never got off the ground due to lots of reasons, but I'd still love to get it going sometime. If anyone needs help with getting devices talking (whether they have open drivers or not :) ), that's pretty much what I do. :D I still wonder if org is the right medium for this. Most of the devices are going to give you a TON of data (the neurosky raw stream is ~500hz update, emotiv is ~128hz, etc...). Pedometers and blood pressure monitors that do one-time large dumps might be somewhat more feasible. On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 6:45 AM, wrote: > Jonathan Arkell writes: > >> Hi Orgers! >> >> I recently picked up a Neruosky Mindwave, a consumer level EEG device (it >> reads brainwaves). Unfortunately, the software bundle doesn't include a >> way to log the EEG levels. Since I am fairly decent at Elisp, I thought I >> would write a little library to interface with the mindwave, and store the >> results. Naturally I thought of using an org-mode buffer for this. >> >> So I present, mindwave-emacs: >> https://raw.github.com/jonnay/emagicians-starter-kit/master/extra/mindwave-emacs.org >> >> Mindwave-emacs.el really is just a low-level interface for emacs. Inside >> of the org file are 2 examples (actually, fully working programs) that >> show you how to work with it. >> >> - gather-into-org.el :: allows you to write data into an org-mode file >> - solarized-mind.el :: uses the "eSense" Attention and Meditation >> measurements to provide feedback to the user on their brian state. >> >> I am also working on a lower-level serial/binary connection to retrieve >> data from the mindwave to help facilitate raw EEG logging. >> >> I don't know if this is going to be useful to anyone, but I figured some >> people may be interested. > > Cool! > > I did some Neurosky Mindset integration for my zen.el package: > https://github.com/jave/zen-mode > > Maybe I can integrate your package and mine, I'll have a look! > > >> >> Cheers! >> __ >> >> >> Jonathan Arkell >> Sr. Developer >> Inspired By Drum & Bass, Scheme, Kawaii >> >> p. 403.206.4377 >> 1011 9th Ave SE, Suite 300 >> >> Calgary, AB, Canada T2G 0Y4 >> >> jonath...@criticalmass.com >> criticalmass.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The information contained in this message is confidential. It is intended to >> be read only by the individual or entity named above or their designee. If >> the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby >> notified that any distribution of this message, in any form, is strictly >> prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately >> notify the sender and delete or destroy any copy of this message. >> >> > > -- > Joakim Verona > >
Re: [O] Export a weekly calendar view from org-agenda
Sure, you can just set a custom agenda view, like so: ("w" agenda "Week with events and no daily/chores" ((org-agenda-ndays-to-span 7) (org-agenda-ndays 7) (org-agenda-filter-preset '("-daily" Then export that. I have a system similar to what you're mentioning, except I use email at the moment. I have a cron job that emails me a ascii daily/weekly agenda depending on what day of the week it is (daily every day, weekly + daily on sunday). Since my mobile devices usually cache off my email, that does the job of getting it offline for me. Same idea could be used for paper though. I should clean the code up for the export system I use, though since I rely on el-get and a few packages, it's a rather me-specific configuration. Will post if I get that done. I'm actually planning on building a Freerange printer (http://gofreerange.com/printer) that I'd like to be able to export org stuff too. Assuming that project actually gets done, I'll post about it here also. Wouldn't be surprised if someone set up a BERG Littleprinter feed too. :) On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 1:50 PM, Torsten Wagner wrote: > Hi, > > I was wondering if it is possible to export an agenda in form of a weekly > calendar. > For the good old "offline" times, I would like to carry a printed version of > e.g., the last week, current week and the next week with me (e.g. printed > all on a double sided printed A5 page). > That would allow me to jot down changes and have a quick look on my > schedules at all time. Those changes, I would transfer back as soon as I sit > again in front of a PC. > I notice that I tend to forget to enter appointments just out of my head > esp. if things get busy. > The second benefit would be that I can file those weekly paper copies, in a > classic manner and hence keep a paper based backup version (which due to the > overlap even has a CVS like versioning mechanism ;)) just in case. > I started to use org-caldav and hence, I know about the possibility to > perform an export to caldav and using a calendar program with caldav support > to print such a calendar. > However, the groupware I am using does not allow pretty printing of the > web-based client and I hesitate to install another client (most are big > beasts like thunderbird+lightning, evolution, etc.) just for printing. > In addition I would like to keep the workflow more org-mode centric and not > caldav centric. Hence, a direct export from org-mode would be more welcome. > > I somehow remember that there was a way to create a PDF file but I can't > find it anymore and I remember that the entries overlapped each other and it > wasn't that pretty. > Does someone here has a method or work-chain to export a org-agenda into > such a calendar view? > I'm happy with an external (console script, TeX, etc.) solution too. > > Alternatively, I am happy to hear how others try to get paper and org > versions together. > > > Thanks > > Torsten > >
Re: [O] Using Org/babel for Emacs config files (was: OT: Learning ELISP)
Building on these idea, eric schulte's emacs 24 starter kit actually uses tags to configure what should and shouldn't be tangled, to make things easily configurable by others (not really a feature most of us are looking for in configs, but interesting nonetheless). Check out the starter-kit-load function in https://raw.github.com/eschulte/emacs24-starter-kit/master/starter-kit.org On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 2:06 PM, Darlan Cavalcante Moreira wrote: > > I also have my Emacs configuration in org mode and it is really great. > Before moving to an org-mode initialization file I had multiple elisp files > and the main initialization file loaded the individual files. But having > everything in one place with the outline and search powers of org-modemuch > better. You can even put todos there if you want. > > There are many benefits of using tags in your initialization. You can, for > instance, put a "Keybinds" tag in all headlines that change some > keybindings. You can put a "Flymake" tag in all headlines configuring > flymake for the different programming languages you use. If you need to > locate the flymake configuration specific for python, for instance, all > that is necessary is to do a tag search for the Flymake and Python tags. > > Note that Emacs does not evaluate your initialization org-mode file > directly. It tangles all elisp blocks in that file to an elisp file and > then load that elisp file as usual. The tangling can be slow if you have > many blocks, but it only does that once after editing the org-mode > file. Therefore, you don't get a performance hit by having your > initialization in an org-mode file. > > You can also take advantage of this tangle process. For instance, I have a > "Themes" headline where each child headline configures Emacs with a > different theme. I set the TANGLE property of all of these headlines to > "no" except one. Then Emacs will use that theme. You can easily > enable/disable big parts of your configuration like this and I find it > easier then commenting and uncommenting different parts of an elisp > file. For visual feedback, I like to add the COMMENT keyword in the > headlines where I have set the TANGLE property to no. > > -- > Darlan > > At Wed, 23 Jan 2013 15:40:35 +0100, > Karl Voit wrote: >> >> Hi! >> >> * Jonathan Arkell wrote: >> > I am a huge advocate of using org files and literate programming in your >> > config files. >> >> Great. >> >> I am not completely convinced to convert my config to org/babel but >> I am not oppose either. Not sure, if there are that many advantages, >> that it is worth my effort, that's all. >> >> > A few reasons why: >> > - Makes it easy to logically group sections of your init and >> > configuration >> >> Well, this is also possible with pure elisp and comments. Folding is >> a different topic tough. >> >> > - Agenda tags search on your initialization file? Yes please! >> > Extremely useful for those "cross-cutting" bits. I have tags like >> > "keybinding", "osx" and "linux", and working on others as appropriate. >> >> Hm. Interesting but I guess this is not my use-case (except for >> :keybinding:). I do use "(when (system-is-linux) ... )" and similar >> all over my configuration. >> >> Although I am a huge fan of tagging, I don't see the use when >> editing my emacs config (yet). >> >> > - Add TODOs to your init file. >> >> I am using ~/org/mainfile.org -> "* shorts" -> "** TODO do this >> :hostname:" all the time. Also for my config tasks. No worries: I do >> see your point but I like to have all my sysadmin-tasks combined in >> "mainfile.org/shorts". So maybe this is just me. >> >> > Here is my example, but I stand on the shoulders of giants: >> > >> > https://github.com/jonnay/emagicians-starter-kit >> >> Thanks for sharing! >> >> One thing which I would appreciate would be that it is more easy to >> write documentation (including URLs; outside of elisp sections) in >> org. >> >> >> Naive question: Are there any performance issues with not being able >> to compile my config.org to config.elc as it is possible with >> config.el files? >> >> -- >> Karl Voit >> >> >
[O] Sticky agenda status?
Just curious if the sticky agenda branch is going to land as a feature at some point, or if there was some discussion on what's blocking it that I'm missing? There was lots of action last month then silence, and it looks like the branch has bitrotted against the trunk now. Was kinda looking forward to it as a feature. :)
Re: [O] Sticky agenda status?
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 3:56 PM, Max Mikhanosha wrote: > I had merged origin/master into max-sticky-agenda, can you try it out > so that there is more then one person running it? If everything looks > good I'll push it to master on Monday. I'm running it now, seems to be working well. > So far I had one problem with babel, which appears unrelated to sticky > changes, as org-babel-header-arg-expand seems to be made it into > default value of org-tab-first-hook, and right that function throws > some weird error inside of it. I don't really use babel much, so I'm no good to repro that, but everything else seems fine thus far.
[O] Making org-fit-agenda-window able to be turned off?
Would adding a flag to skip calls to org-fit-agenda-window be handy to anyone else? Some context: I use workgroups.el (https://github.com/tlh/workgroups.el) for my desktop management setup. I have a workgroup that keeps my org-mode daily agenda and sauron (https://github.com/djcb/sauron) up as my sort of "current status" desktop. Any time I update the agenda buffer using 'g', the windows rebalance because of the call to org-fit-agenda-window, making the sauron window take far more than I want it to. In order to keep the window sizes the same, I wrap org-fit-agenda-window in defadvice that checks a variable I set (gross, I know), but was wondering if it might be useful in other situations and worth adding to org-agenda, or if it's just me. There's already checks all over the place for whether org-multi-buffer is non-nil, which if it is means org-fit-agenda-window doesn't run, but I think that's for backgrounded buffer updates?
Re: [O] Org-mode as a Quantified Self platform
My "Quantified Coder" talk at Google IO last year was going to focus toward emacs and org-mode, actually: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52Ml_zax4A0#t=12m47s Unfortunately I haven't gotten time to actually start on it yet, but I know there's community interest in org-mode and tracking as much as possible. On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 12:21 PM, Achim Gratz wrote: > Zack Mayson writes: >> (is Quantified Self like GTD? I assume it is). > > No, Quantified Self is more like how much you weighed before and after > GTD. :-) > > > Regards, > Achim. > -- > +<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+ > > DIY Stuff: > http://Synth.Stromeko.net/DIY.html > >
Re: [O] calfw, get rid of file names
I used defadvice to fix this: (defadvice qdot/cfw:org-extract-summary (after cfw:org-extract-summary) "Remove tags and filenames from item summary" (message item)) On Sun, Jun 10, 2012 at 1:57 AM, Michael Welle wrote: > Hello, > > I just discovered calfw. That's neat stuff ;). I wonder if I can > customise away the org file names that are shown with the calendar > entries? Mouse clicking on the entry brings me to the associated file, > so IMHO showing the file's name does not provide additional information. > > Regards > hmw > > -- > biff4emacsen - A biff-like tool for (X)Emacs > http://www.c0t0d0s0.de/biff4emacsen/biff4emacsen.html > Flood - Your friendly network packet generator > http://www.c0t0d0s0.de/flood/flood.html > >
Re: [O] calfw, get rid of file names
On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 1:40 AM, Michael Welle wrote: > The thing Kyle wanted to point out is that you can customise > the item in the above advice. (message item) just prints the item to the > status line. > > Since I'm a bit short on time at the moment I cheated a little bit and > manipulated the function cfw:org-summary-format (calfw-org.el). At the > end of this function I excluded the buffer name from the concatenation. Hah, wow, ok, I actually completely was not paying attention when I copy/pasted that, just thought "Oh I remember fixing that" and didn't realize I never actually /finished/ the function, and hadn't used calfw much since. Oops. :) But yeah, that is definitely a way to change the output, but on further inspection it doesn't look like the right one. If you check out calfw-org.el, there's a useful defvar, cfw:org-schedule-summary-transformer. This allows you to write your own summary line transformer without even needing to advise, so you could just copy cfw:org-summary-format, chop it up to your hearts content, then set the variable without modifying the package at all. I'll probably do this myself. Also
[O] sexp timestamp causing agenda compilation issues as of 8517be79b5c1
As of commit 8517be79b5c1fe165d23ea65ad70a282e9c595bb (bisected to find this), agenda compilation died with the following backtrace for me: Debugger entered--Lisp error: (error "Bad timestamp `' Error was: (Not a standard Org-mode time string: )") signal(error ("Bad timestamp `'\nError was: (Not a standard Org-mode time string: )")) error("Bad timestamp `%s'%s\nError was: %s" "" "" ("Not a standard Org-mode time string: ")) byte-code(...) org-time-string-to-absolute("") byte-code(...) org-agenda-get-timestamps(nil) org-agenda-get-day-entries("~/emacs_org/mozilla/mozilla.org" (2 6 2013) :deadline :scheduled :timestamp :sexp) apply(org-agenda-get-day-entries "~/emacs_org/mozilla/mozilla.org" (2 6 2013) (:deadline :scheduled :timestamp :sexp)) byte-code(...) byte-code(...) org-agenda-list(nil) call-interactively(org-agenda-list) byte-code(...) org-agenda(nil) call-interactively(org-agenda nil nil) It's dying when it hits a headline as follows: * Meeting 13:30 , <%%(memq (calendar-day-of-week date) '(3))> I'm guessing this has something to do with the agenda sorting updates in the commit not liking the fact that the sexp evaluates to true. If the sexp evaluates nil for the day the agenda is trying to parse, nothing happens. If it evaluates to something other than nil (t if I use (= 3 (calendar-day-of-week date)), 3 if I use memq on a wednesday, etc...), I get the above error.
Re: [O] sexp timestamp causing agenda compilation issues as of 8517be79b5c1
Updated to 25a481d8, still getting the same error and backtrace when generating agendas where the memq block evaluates non-nil. :/ On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 1:33 AM, Bastien wrote: > Hi Kyle, > > Kyle Machulis writes: > >> As of commit 8517be79b5c1fe165d23ea65ad70a282e9c595bb (bisected to >> find this), agenda compilation died with the following backtrace for >> me: >> >> Debugger entered--Lisp error: (error "Bad timestamp `' >> Error was: (Not a standard Org-mode time string: )") >> signal(error ("Bad timestamp `'\nError was: (Not a standard Org-mode >> time string: )")) >> error("Bad timestamp `%s'%s\nError was: %s" "" "" ("Not a standard >> Org-mode time string: ")) >> byte-code(...) >> org-time-string-to-absolute("") >> byte-code(...) >> org-agenda-get-timestamps(nil) >> org-agenda-get-day-entries("~/emacs_org/mozilla/mozilla.org" (2 6 >> 2013) :deadline :scheduled :timestamp :sexp) >> apply(org-agenda-get-day-entries "~/emacs_org/mozilla/mozilla.org" >> (2 6 2013) (:deadline :scheduled :timestamp :sexp)) >> byte-code(...) >> byte-code(...) >> org-agenda-list(nil) >> call-interactively(org-agenda-list) >> byte-code(...) >> org-agenda(nil) >> call-interactively(org-agenda nil nil) >> >> It's dying when it hits a headline as follows: >> >> * Meeting 13:30 >> , <%%(memq (calendar-day-of-week date) '(3))> >> >> I'm guessing this has something to do with the agenda sorting updates >> in the commit not liking the fact that the sexp evaluates to true. If >> the sexp evaluates nil for the day the agenda is trying to parse, >> nothing happens. If it evaluates to something other than nil (t if I >> use (= 3 (calendar-day-of-week date)), 3 if I use memq on a wednesday, >> etc...), I get the above error. > > Thanks for reporting this. Yes, diary sexp are special and can't > really be handled here. I fixed this in master, please confirm this > is okay. > > -- > Bastien
Re: [O] sexp timestamp causing agenda compilation issues as of 8517be79b5c1
All fixed, thanks! On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:41 AM, Bastien wrote: > Kyle Machulis writes: > >> Updated to 25a481d8, still getting the same error and backtrace when >> generating agendas where the memq block evaluates non-nil. :/ > > Please pull again, it should be fixed now. > > Thanks! > > -- > Bastien
[O] New exporter: Stack overflow in regexp matcher on HTML export of large-ish org-babel blocks
I'm trying to html export my babel'd config. It seems to be choking on some of the larger blocks (300+ lines) of code (offending blocks seem to be org, erc, programming config). I should probably chop these down a bit for readability (still working on finshing org-ifying it), but I'd also figure we probably shouldn't be dying on the matcher function. Original file: http://github.com/qdot/conf_emacs/emacs_conf.org Crappy hand-entered backtrace that's missing huge parameters: (string-match ...) (org-html-fontify-code ...) ... org-version: Org-mode version 7.9.3e (7.9.3e-3-gb07a9b @ /usr/share/emacs/24.3.50/lisp/org/)
Re: [O] New exporter: Stack overflow in regexp matcher on HTML export of large-ish org-babel blocks
Just tested it, works now. Thanks! :D On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 3:31 PM, Nicolas Goaziou wrote: > Hello, > > Kyle Machulis writes: > > > I'm trying to html export my babel'd config. It seems to be choking on > some > > of the larger blocks (300+ lines) of code (offending blocks seem to be > org, > > erc, programming config). I should probably chop these down a bit for > > readability (still working on finshing org-ifying it), but I'd also > figure > > we probably shouldn't be dying on the matcher function. > > This should be fixed in master. > > Thank you for reporting this. > > > Regards, > > -- > Nicolas Goaziou >
[O] Exporting meta tags for properties via ox-html
I've got a bunch of file level properties that I'd like to be able to export as header meta tags in HTML. So if I've got #+TITLE: Testing #+DESCRIPTION: Testing 1 2 3 I could actually get output like ... ... And so on. The org-html-head and org-html-head-extra variables exist to be able to do this project wide for publishing, but they expect stringp, not a function that can be run per file. Is there a decent way to do this that doesn't involve adding #+HTML_HEAD_EXTRA blocks to the files? I suppose I could chain a publishing function in to add what I need before going to HTML, but that seems a like a heavyweight option. Honestly, something like org-html-preamble-format would be nice, but that may not be a great API addition since it's weirdly specific.
[O] [PATCH] ox-html: Fix meta tag output for properties
There are a few document properties (author, description, keywords) that should automatically be made meta tags if they exist on export. These were currently being checked as part of an and block that would evaluate both, creating the string, then just return a newline on success, meaning the meta tags were never added to the document (since they're part of a larger concat that never got the string added to it). This patch wraps the needed logic check into a when, then concats the tag creation and newline addition to return. 0001-ox-html.el-Fix-output-of-meta-tags-when-properties-a.patch Description: Binary data
Re: [O] org-contacts, multi-line properties, postal addresses
Thought about maybe trying to extend AsynK with an org-contacts backend? That'd be ridiculously useful. http://karra-asynk.appspot.com/ On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 1:13 PM, Karl Voit wrote: > * Norman Walsh wrote: > > > > Hello world, > > Hello Norman! > > > I'm just taking another look at org-contacts. I wonder what the best > > practice is for dealing with multi-line properties like postal > > addresses. > > I split them up to single lines. > > > I can just make them part of the entry, of course, not in a property, > > but that seems oddly different from the other properites. > > I am afraid that there is no standard (yet). > > However, I can give you my personal approach: > > > ** Firstname Lastname > :FirstnameLastname: > > :PROPERTIES: > > :TYPE: person > > :TITLE: > > :EMAIL: > > :URL: > > :MOBILE: 0043/ > > :HOMEPHONE: > > :WORKPHONE: > > :PHONE: > > :COMPANY: > > :STREET: > > :POSTALCODE: > > :CITY: > > :COUNTRY: Austria > > :PHOTOGRAPH: [[photo:FirstnameLastname.jpg]] > > :BORN: > > :ITOLDTHEM_EMAIL: > > :ITOLDTHEM_ADDRESS: > > :ITOLDTHEM_PHONE: > > :ADDRESS_CHANGE_METHOD: > > :END: > > > > - first contact: > > ITOLDTHEM_* is used for automatically generating my email filter > rules (spam-whitelist) and memorizing the level of information I > gave out to companies. > > ADDRESS_CHANGE_METHOD is used to memorize email addresses, web > pages, or contact information on how I am able to update my personal > information such as address or phone number. > > In the next week or so I plan to implement a Python script that > generates an iCal file out of my contacts.org so that my Android > phone is able to import it (including photographs!). Stay tuned :-) > > HTH > > -- > mail|git|SVN|photos|postings|SMS|phonecalls|RSS|CSV|XML to Org-mode: >> get Memacs from https://github.com/novoid/Memacs < > > https://github.com/novoid/extract_pdf_annotations_to_orgmode + more on > github > > >
Re: [O] firefox bookmarks to org-mode
While it's been a while since I've done this, I did get it working at least once, in a roundable way. I had a setup for bookmarking via org-protocol and keysnail (http://github.com/mooz/keysnail). I set up org-protocol in firefox like the documentation said (though I remember it being REALLY finnicky, but this was well over a year ago so I can't remember exactly what the issue was). I made an org-capture template bound to w (hence the /w/ in the URL below), that would take the bookmark name and URL. The keysnail setup looked like: key.setGlobalKey(['C-c', 's', 'l'], function (ev, arg) { let wc = window.content; let d = ev.target.ownerDocument; location.href='org-protocol://capture://w/'+encodeURIComponent(wc.location.href)+'/'+encodeURIComponent(d.title)+'/'+encodeURIComponent(window.getSelection()); display.echoStatusBar("Saved " + d.title + " to org links buffer"); }, 'Save to org-mode capture', true); So, not the most direct route, but it did the job. These days, I just use pinboard. Might be nice to make a pinboard to org exporter though. :) On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 3:40 PM, Julian M. Burgos wrote: > Dear list, > > Could anyone give me some pointers on a set-up to get links from firefox > to an org-mode file? I would like to press a key combination in firefox > (say Ctrl-D) and have the web address of the site stored as an entry in > some org-mode file. > Many thanks, > > Julian > > > -- > Julian Mariano Burgos, PhD > Hafrannsóknastofnun/Marine Research Institute > Skúlagata 4, 121 Reykjavík, Iceland > Sími/Telephone : +354-5752037 > Bréfsími/Telefax: +354-5752001 > Netfang/Email: jul...@hafro.is > >
Re: [O] org todos on paper?
I had a set of scripts cron'd to like 4am that would run emacs, output a daily agenda export, and email that to me, which I would sometimes print. It was super handy. Of course, they stopped working a while ago but I keep meaning to fix that. On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 6:22 PM, Peter Neilson wrote: > On Thu, 27 Feb 2014 20:23:26 -0500, Peter Salazar > wrote: > > I keep meeting people who say they started getting more things done more >> efficiently once they started printing out their tasks lists, so they can >> have the experience of seeing the list on paper and, more importantly, the >> satisfaction of crossing an item off on the page. >> >> Does anyone have a workflow they're happy with that involves printing out >> their org-mode todo lists? >> > > Exactly. My to-do items are mostly physical activities related to taking > care of farm animals, rather than things I'm doing on my computer. It makes > little sense to try to follow a list on a laptop or smartphone when walking > back and forth in mud, or when picking up items at the farm-supply store. I > update my to-do items occasionally in emacs, but as much as I've loved > using emacs for nearly 40 years, it's not my constant companion outdoors in > the weather, or when handling horses or shearing sheep. A printed piece of > paper in my pocket is much easier to use, and little harm is done if it > falls into the stock tank or gets trampled by livestock. > >