Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News IV

2015-01-10 Thread hellekin
Noel contacted me for the upcoming issue.  I guess we could have a talk
about it on #devuan-news on freenode's IRC if you like.  I don't know
yet his plans but I'm eager to give a hand.

==
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Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News VII

2015-01-13 Thread hellekin
On 01/13/2015 09:28 AM, Dragan FOSS wrote:
>> *** Jessie without systemd
>>
>> https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150108.222844.f83bac6d.en.html
>>
>> The TRIOS team introduces their semi-rolling Debian Jessie based
>> OS that aims to work without Systemd. It still uses udev at this
>> point. It looks very similar to Devuan, using OpenRC as the
> 
> Maybe i am wrong, but It seems that funny things happen here at devuan weekly 
> news...something that exists right now,
> "looks very similar" to something that even not exist yet :)
> 
*** It was not intended for publication but was a reading note. The
process of team publication is not yet ready: it actually needs team
work.  What was meant is that the projects are similar in their intentions.

==
hk

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Re: [Dng] Use/misuse of depends

2015-01-13 Thread hellekin
On 01/13/2015 02:23 PM, Joel Roth wrote:
> 
> Also, I recall that in a default Debian install, recommended
> packages are pulled in by default. A setting change makes it
> possible to only pull in the package dependencies.
> 
*** Are you suggesting that Devuan should use that setting and not pull
in Recommends automatically?

cat > /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/70befrugal <

Re: [Dng] Use/misuse of depends

2015-01-14 Thread hellekin
On 01/14/2015 07:52 AM, KatolaZ wrote:
> 
> in some of the cases a Recommend is simply unnecessary (like exim4
> recommended by mutt)
>
*** This sounds like a misuse.  It should be Suggests.  I get the logic
of "recommending" an SMTP server for a mail client, but there are many
different implementations and many different use cases of a mail client
including some that do not require an SMTP server.  I guess Mutt should
"suggest" an SMTP server, not a specific one anyway.

So we're talking about two different setups: one wants to keep the bloat
away ; the other wants to pull in as much functionality as it can to
ensure no missing feature will surprise the user.

I would certainly favor the former, conservative approach, and leverage
Blends to make meta-packages that pull in Recommends.  That way, a
Devuan install would always remain minimalist, but then it would make it
easier to create workhorse Blends.  I think this will be useful when
people wants to make specific distributions for mobile phones or some
proprietary hardware.

==
hk

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Re: [Dng] What's new in Systemd

2015-02-04 Thread hellekin
On 02/02/2015 12:37 PM, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Feb 2015 10:22:45 -0500
> Miles Fidelman  wrote:
> 
>>> Only remains to prove the talibans of systemd that resistance is not 
>>> futile...
> 
>> Is not ISIL a better analogy?
> 
> Grovelling apologies, but I have difficulties distinguishing shades in that 
> region of the spectrum...
>  
> Cheers,
>  
> Ron.
> 

Let me help you.  After all, I'm a free software talib. (see my twitter)

Talib: singular, a student.
Taliban: plural, more than one talib.

Using Talib or Taliban as a derogatory term is Newspeak straight from
the War Propaganda 101 operative manual.  Instead of considering a
human, you consider an enemy.  The enemy is the devil.  The enemy has a
face, but not necessarily a name (that would make it too close to you.)

Our daily rhetoric is full of such very bad shit about a lot of things
and people.  While people hate, they nurture bad vibes and
dopamine-based (lack of) sociability.  Violence engenders more violence,
distinctions more dissociation, and separation more contradictions, that
in turn trigger reactions, and reactionary visions circling the vicious
circle.

Beware of bad associations, and remember that you're responsible for how
you treat your brains.  As the great Sufi talib and poet master Rumi said:

*

We are as the flute, and the music in us is from thee;
we are as the mountain and the echo in us is from thee.

We are as pieces of chess engaged in victory and defeat:
our victory and defeat is from thee, O thou whose qualities are comely!

Who are we, O Thou soul of our souls,
that we should remain in being beside thee?

We and our existences are really non-existence;
thou art the absolute Being which manifests the perishable.

We all are lions, but lions on a banner:
because of the wind they are rushing onward from moment to moment.

Their onward rush is visible, and the wind is unseen:
may that which is unseen not fail from us!

Our wind whereby we are moved and our being are of thy gift;
our whole existence is from thy bringing into being.

*

==
hk

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[Dng] [OT] ISIL (was Re: What's new in Systemd)

2015-02-04 Thread hellekin
On 02/04/2015 03:03 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote:
>
 Is not ISIL a better analogy?
>
> But not the analogy I was driving at.  The Taliban is a movement that
> started focused on Afghanistan - a revolutionary movement. ISIL's
> mission is to (re)establish an Islamic Caliphate over a broad swatch of
> territory (kind of like the Borg).  The later seems a lot more like what
> is happening with systemd.
> 
> Miles Fidelman
> 
> 

The "Islamic Caliphate" and the general media attention of ISIL seem to
me to respond to an ideological warfare painted in Samuel Huntington's
1996 opus "The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order".

Honestly, considering "The West" and "Islam(ism)" as monolithic entities
fighting each other is a bit like confusing porn with eroticism, or
McDonald's with food -- or war with peace.

This heavy tendency of "Western" ideologists and mass media to draw
subtle portraits with chainsaws and bulldozers is not at all helpful
neither in understanding the phenomenon of the rise of ISIL in the
Middle-East nor to understand the various forms of Islam, nor to
understand each other as human beings, and of course it does not help
bringing a sane view of complexity.

I like Poettering's own choice of the Borg, because it illustrates the
contradiction and paradox of his real-fictional action.  Systemd is
doing to the free software world what Microsoft was doing in its time to
the computer world: it pushes the incentives of "progress", in the sense
of fugue, to wrap a monolithic construct (Linux) with a monolithic shell
(systemd) that will do it all and better than anyone else just because,
please don't ask, you should know.

Yes, the Borg.  An invasive, unavoidable plague that will make its way
like a caries down to the core of an aching tooth.  I've seen the
presentation with all the Borg illustrations, and frankly, I thought on
some slides: how is that an advantage?  Certainly Mr. Poettering is in
love with his own mind and logic, but I would certainly not appreciate
his poetry.

The concept of "Pensée Unique", the "unique train of thought" that is
delivered year after year by the all powerful "too big to fail" Western
ideology has brought its heavy muddy boots into the free software world.
 That most of distributions adopted systemd however remains less a sign
of quality and engineering prowess than a mix of developer laziness,
good marketing, and general short-sightedness -- remember SSL is still
around, and there's nothing worse than a bad idea whose time has come.

That said, I wish the Devuan community-in-the-making would bring to a
halt the criticism of Systemd and especially when it comes to demonizing
it and making hardly appropriate comparisons, and start focusing on how
we can make the best *universal* free software operating system that is
not stuck in monomania, in bureaucracy, nor in the 1990s (although it
should definitely be working on HDDs as well).

Regards,

==
hk

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Re: [Dng] Community polls on Devuan design

2015-02-08 Thread hellekin
On 02/08/2015 07:55 AM, Jaromil wrote:
> 
> We had many logo submissions as one can see here
> http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Category:Logo
>
*** Without-Systemd.org is behind an anti-Tor Cloudflare wall.  Please
disable it!

> And even one complete design study by Alban Crommel
> http://albancrommer.github.io/devuan/ well inspired by discussions on
> this list, still leaving the logo option open.
>
*** I hate to say it but I judge the quality of a web design with lynx
-dump and the "View > Without style" option of Firefox.  Appearance is
not to be confused with design.

==
hk

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Re: [Dng] Community polls on Devuan design

2015-02-08 Thread hellekin
On 02/08/2015 03:19 PM, Dima Krasner wrote:
> My vote goes to the last logo from 
> http://albancrommer.github.io/devuan/Logo_2ndpass.pdf (D with a spiral). The 
> typography is great.
>
*** I like the idea of the spiral inside the D as well.  It's vastly
superior to every other proposal IMO.  What font is it?

I'd like to see more versions (and SVG files) of this idea.

==
hk

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Re: [Dng] Towards systemd-free packages

2015-02-09 Thread hellekin
On 02/09/2015 10:10 PM, Jude Nelson wrote:
> 
> Unrelated, I opened in issue on the SDK.  It seems that I'm prompted for a
> password for "g...@git.devuan.org" when I run the "init" script.  I don't
> know what to put here.
>
*** You should [setup an SSH key on the gitlab][0] (let's call it
~/.ssh/id_rsa_devuan) and throw this at your SSH configuration:

cat 

Re: [Dng] Guidelines?

2015-02-11 Thread hellekin
On 02/11/2015 05:12 PM, mitt_gr...@yahoo.com wrote:
> 
> Hi guys,
> 
> Sorry if it was asked before, I'm relatively new to here.
> 
> What's yer take on following Debian's way in dealing with trademarks and non 
> free stuff?
>
*** Hi Mitt,

nobody should expect anything from Devuan beyond what has been said: the
primary objective is to deliver Jessie without systemd.  Once this is
done, the community will grow, and will probably keep close to Debian in
the general lines: the Debian fork was announced as continuity with Debian.

AFAIK the VUA have been focusing on three things so far:

- providing a solid infrastructure to handle the transition
- removing systemd dependencies on the default install
- automating package maintenance and de-poettering to allow painless
integration from Debian and upstream.

Note that dealing with organizational issues, future releases, and
current trolls all have been postponed.  I like this pragmatic approach
to solving real issues as they come and insist for being solved.

Now, as another recurring issue that Debian has been accused of is the
bureaucracy and the poor relationship with upstream, Devuan is a good
place to challenge this and start fresh from that point of view.

If you have strong opinions about any issue where you would like to see
change, you'd better get ready to work on it and help build solid
alternatives.

I'd like to share Howard Rheingold's motto at this point:

What it is--->is->up to us.

Cheers,

==
hk

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Re: [Dng] Community polls on Devuan design

2015-02-12 Thread hellekin
On 02/12/2015 07:39 AM, Jaromil wrote:
> 
> hi all
> 
> the last community curated DWN expresses enthusiasm for a logo design
> which wasn't included in the poll (because absent from the wiki),
>
*** I want to clear a misunderstanding.  I wrote this article in DWN,
entirely on my own, and I requested it from Noel to be able to introduce
the #devuan-www team.

I'm very sorry that it created such confusion and led Atari314 to his
decision of leaving the project, and I hope he reconsiders.  The concern
Atari314 and Jaromil expressed was about democracy and listening to the
community, and especially for Atari314, that point was even more
important than the logo itself.

Atari314 and I had a couple of conversations last night and this
morning, where I assured him two things: if bureaucracy kicks in in
Devuan, I'll be first to kick its ass, and he responded that I would be
second, after him.  I assume he will be back otherwise he cannot comply.

I want to explain why I think the poll is a wrong idea, and why I think
this has nothing to do with democracy.  I'm asking you to bear with the
emerging design team, at least until after Devuan Jessie Alpha is
released, which will be sooner than later.  If after that the community
still thinks I was wrong to take this path, I'll resign without a fuss
(the second point in my conversation with Atari314).

While nextime has been working almost on his own, without any public
appearance, nobody has been saying anything about how he should do it.
It's not democratic, but so far, everybody expects that he's doing the
right thing.  While jaromil has been designing his toy SDK, hacking away
night and day while trying to keep the community's voice and softness
and inclusiveness, nobody came to knock at his door telling him how to
do it.  Everybody is waiting patiently to see what's cooking.  Nobody
enters the kitchen to bother the cook, yet everybody enjoys the meal.

Yet, when it comes to design, everybody has a strong opinion about how
things work and how they should look like.  Don't worry, I'm one of you.
 I proposed an esoterically-complex logo, and kickstarted the
Category:Logo on the without-systemd wiki.  But I didn't except that
anyone would call for a vote: design by committee is a horrible path to
take.  As soon as I saw the poll proposal, I denounced it, and naturally
got closer to the people who were thinking alike.

Yet, I didn't propose *my* logo as the direction to take.  Neither did I
*choose* a logo *implementation* among logos implementations.  What I
did is gather a couple of people, discuss ideas with them, we all agreed
on a path and *a direction for the logo*, which incidentally seems to be
reflected in the current results of the poll:

- it should remind of Debian, for continuity
- it should use a swirl-D, because d is a natural swirl

Both the "Negative Galaxy" logo proposal, Atari314's "spiral-d" logo
proposal, the two most-voted logo proposals so far, and Alban's proposal
all share the same characteristics.  So there's no drama about where
we're going: I should not have written "it darn looks like the Devuan
logo" about Alban's, but the above.  I expected "looks like" to be
sufficiently vague as to convey that we're *working on designing a logo
from an idea of a swirl-d*, not choosing from any proposed implementation.

This is exactly why I thought *the poll was a bad idea*: it favors a
canonical situation of [bikeshedding][0] that seriously gets in the way
of productivity.  So really, there's no reason to dramatize the
situation, we're just a young project with a strong legacy, and we're
trying to find our marks.  There's *nothing about democracy here*: don't
tell me a dozen logo designs and a hundred votes are any representative
of the Devuan community, if you consider that the first alpha release is
yet to be done!

*Please bear with us.*  You're welcome to join #devuan-www, but not for
bikeshedding there.  We're on a solid track and we intend, as a team, to
pursue it at least until we deliver our first product.  After that, you
may judge us what we've done, not for what you think we're doing wrong.
 If we fail, it will certainly be time to take another direction.  We're
listening, and we're of course part of this community.

==
hk

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_law_of_triviality



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Re: [Dng] About separate mailing lists

2015-02-12 Thread hellekin
On 02/12/2015 06:35 AM, Jaromil wrote:
> 
> However we have started setting up a listserver with some volunteers and
> soon or later decisions will be made.
> 
> Perhaps the first list to be born should one to discuss on how to
> structure the communication architecture?
> 
*** I think we have it already: here :)

My take on this is very simple: if we don't need it, we don't do it.

When we need it, we try not to do it, for organic alternate solutions to
emerge, or for the bubble to break and the problem to fade away.  If the
problem sticks around, then we have a real problem to tackle.  Until
then, it's just wasting time.  Sooner or later, we end up dead, better
not create problems that don't exist, we already have our plates full IMHO.

==
hk

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Re: [Dng] recommendation for consideration: keep as close to debian as possible

2015-02-14 Thread hellekin
On 02/14/2015 10:16 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 8:12 AM, KatolaZ  wrote:
>> On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 04:01:58PM +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> 
>>>  is it the intent of the devuan team to:
>>>
>>>  (a) create a "fork" which will always, at all times, without fail,
>>> require that a debian repo be placed in /etc/apt/sources.list
>>>
>>>  or
>>>
>>>  (b) create a "fork" of the *entire debian package repository*, such
>>> that it will end up over time to be as completely incompatible with
>>> debian as ubuntu is today.
>
*** From
https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/wikis/ProjectDescription

"Devuan is born for a simple goal: having a systemd-free debian jessie
to preserve freedom choice on init and decoupling between init and the
rest of the system ...  initially, it will NOT be a complete fork, but
just a complete infrastructure to distribute a personalized version of
debian jessie, testing and unstable where some packages from us will be
pinned up on top of the debian repositories..."

For the future, nobody can tell, but obviously there's an orientation
towards minimalism and continuity.

> 
>> a functioning and fuss-free GNU/Linux, which I can tinker with as like
>
*** Word, KatolaZ, word. :)

==
hk

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Re: [Dng] recommendation for consideration: keep as close to debian as possible

2015-02-14 Thread hellekin
On 02/14/2015 09:08 PM, KatolaZ wrote:
>>>
 a functioning and fuss-free GNU/Linux, which I can tinker with as like
>>>
>> *** Word, KatolaZ, word. :)
>>
> 
> I am sorry I am trashing your mailboxes with tons of words :( I would
> rather like to help you guys doing the hard work...
> 
*** Aha!  To clarify: after reading you I made a proposal for a desktop
background that says: "A no-fuss GNU/Linux I can tinker with." :)

https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-art/blob/devuan-alpha/graphics/backgrounds/alpha/no-fuss-1920x1200.png

==
hk

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Re: [Dng] recommendation for consideration: keep as close to debian as possible

2015-02-14 Thread hellekin
On 02/14/2015 06:59 PM, Luke Leighton wrote:
> 
>  hellekin: can you see the difference between that and what's on the
>  wiki (and on the web site)?
> 
*** Surely I do, and I thank you very much for your version.

Please understand that the wiki page that I linked to was written once 2
months ago by native Italian speakers, and I only made minimal revision
to remove typos and fix the grammar.

Also, the "web team" didn't exist two weeks ago, so things are in the
making.  Of course the alpha site will be much different from what it is
now.  Jaromil has been updating links as they come, but he cannot
redesign the site and deliver the code.

Patience and the kind of contributions you just made are the best help
the Devuan Editors can get at this point.

FYI I opened an issue with your message for this page:
https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/issues/9

(I'm replying to your arguments in another response.)

==
hk

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Re: [Dng] recommendation for consideration: keep as close to debian as possible

2015-02-14 Thread hellekin
On 02/14/2015 06:59 PM, Luke Leighton wrote:
> 
>  what i wrote makes the following things very clear:
> 
>  1) your debian system will not be screwed up or compromised by using
> devuan.  you will also not lose any functionality or packages.
>
*** I guess that really depends on the case: as mentioned earlier in
this list, if you're using Gnome the transition may be more difficult.
Regarding functionality, I can foresee, given the number of packages
that didn't make into Debian Jessie from Wheezy, it might actually be
better in Devuan than in Debian.  In any case, I expect the Devuan
community will provide thorough testing, debugging, and support for edge
cases that may appear from replacing packages whose dependency chain
heavily relies on systemd.

>  2) we understand the difficulty of maintaining an entire distro.
> we implicitly understand that we will not get to 1,000 maintainers
> in the immediate future, so we are being realistic and will not
> be doing a complete fork.  it's too much effort for us, and we
> recognise that you probably wouldn't trust us (i.e. wouldn't
> even want to *try* upgrading to devuan) if we created one.
>
*** The original version seems more appropriate to me: it does not
justify being a small team to begin with, but sets clear and reasonable
goals and baby steps that demonstrate the sanity of the approach rather
than asking for trust.

>  3) we're restricting the scope of what we're doing to a few key
> strategic packages, and we're going to make it easy for you to
> remove systemd.  that's our core focus.
>
*** Again, that's part of how the VUA implement their strategy.  They
say it clearly enough, and that's for the *initial phase*.

The version you wrote, that I reported as Issue #8, wants to tell a
different story than what has been told so far.  The project description
clearly states that:

+ *removing mandatory dependencies on systemd* is the primary goal
+ in order to reach that goal *Devuan will pin some packages on top of
Debian repositories*
+ once that goal is reached, and users have a choice, then Devuan will
consider other changes.

At which point, I would say that it depends on Debian whether Devuan
remains compatible or not.  Devuan will have made it possible for Debian
to revert the decision of using systemd as the default init system.  It
is unlikely to happen, for a variety of reasons.  In any case, Devuan
will have to continue to exist because having systemd as default init in
Debian Jessie *will* influence how developers consider what they can do:
those with a consciousness and a vetted interest in supporting
universality (including legacy or non-mainstream hardware) will go for
Devuan, while others will happily write systemd-dependent code.

There's a remote possibility that systemd will become universal and
stable, or that it will run with a higher PID.  Until then, it seems to
me that Devuan will remain the closest available free software
distribution to Debian Wheezy.

>From what I've read so far, I can feel a strong consensus towards
independence.  That doesn't mean incompatibility.  It would have been so
much easier if Debian had decided to implement the systemd init as a
Debian Blend.  But we're far beyond that situation: this is a fork.

> 
>  with a small (busy) team, you are stuck in the middle between a rock
>  and a hard place.
>
*** You can move a small team away from that situation with no
casualties.  A bigger team will undoubtedly leave some behind.  See Debian.

>  on one hand you need to keep the alternative packages fully up-to-date:
>  even *one day* late means that people will have a system which becomes
>  unuseable due to version-bumps from debian.
>
*** With apt-pinning, you can delay such upgrades.  If a package becomes
broken due to a systemd dependency, it will be added to the Devuan
package repository for fixing.  Once there, it will live happily.
Surely the transition may be hairy for some packages, but there's no
reason why it should happen a lot.  If it does, it's a sign that Debian
is poetterizing, so it will be a good long term indicator of whether
Devuan and Debian will remain compatible.

That said, the current setup of `devuan-sdk` takes into account the
possibility that Debian upstream may become unusable, and allows
bypassing Debian to package directly from upstream.  This defensive
mechanism will allow for example to revert to sanity where Debian
maintainers introduce dependencies on systemd where upstream does not,
or to include packages from Debian Wheezy that missed Debian Jessie.

>  and on the other hand you have to consider doing a complete total fork
>  of debian, with all that that implies
>
*** You're right.  As the VUA said: "We are aware of how huge effort,
time and blood is needed to maintain a so huge distro like debian is,
so, initially, it will NOT be a complete fork".  The more successful the
first phase, the more reachable the scope of a complete fork.  Keeping
the hea

Re: [Dng] Towards systemd-free packages

2015-02-18 Thread hellekin
Volunteers for package adoption can now head to the
[devuan-maintainers][0] project.  The [wiki][1] gives instructions to
follow for adopting a package from the current [list of base
packages][2] that jaromil posted earlier.

If you need anything, try #devuan first.

==
hk

[0]: https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-maintainers#tab-readme
[1]: https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-maintainers/wikis/home
[2]: https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/issues/6#note_78

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Re: [Dng] systemd free badge

2015-02-21 Thread hellekin
On 02/21/15 06:08, Jaromil wrote:
>
> how about designing a badge that all distros that are systemd free can show?
> 
*** I think some kind of cross-distros work is good.  Code sharing will
be facilitated with good inter-distros communication.

On the one hand, I understand the urge to polarize against systemd: it
can be used to denounce its bad aspects and strengthen the identity of
the project.

On the other hand, giving more attention to systemd than it deserves may
cause a disservice to the community.  Debian existed before systemd was
even thought of, and so Devuan should rather build on this legacy rather
than reducing itself to a reactionary stance.

Both edges are sharp: the former focuses on the momentum, and the latter
focuses more on the long term.  I've read both "systemd is here to stay"
and "systemd is a fad".  Watching empty hands...

==
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Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges

2015-02-21 Thread hellekin
On 02/21/15 09:14, David Harrison wrote:
> 
> What about an Init Freedom Group? Freedom sounds more postitive to me
> than 'free of', though it's seen some iffy use in recent years.
> 
> This kind of thing work at two levels. 'Member/Supporter of', meaning
> it's a goal or a sponsorship target, or you're sympathetic. And
> 'certificate', meaning the distro confirms there are no nasties lurking
> in the init woodshed.
> 
> It would work for packages too, for example any DE that steers clear of
> hard systemd dependencies, or succeeds at rehab...
> 
> This makes the badge a source of pride rather than a retrograde step.
>
*** 100% agreed.
https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-art/blob/devuan-alpha/graphics/init-freedom/if.png
(my display tricked me into believing the 'f' was shorter, but the
somehow the result is interesting: the bodies are centered parallel
segments ;o)

==
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Re: [Dng] systemd free badge

2015-02-21 Thread hellekin
On 02/21/15 13:35, Go Linux wrote:
> 
> Modularity-preserved Linux
> Linux your way
> Lockin-freed Linux
>
*** Hmmm...  It's about *init*, not the kernel :o)

==
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Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges

2015-02-21 Thread hellekin
On 02/21/15 13:40, Go Linux wrote:
> 
> Urm . . . it's about more than just init and that needs to be conveyed in the 
> badge.
> 
*** It says "if" :)

 
https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-art/blob/devuan-alpha/graphics/init-freedom/if.png

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Re: [Dng] Kicking the tires on Valentine release

2015-02-25 Thread hellekin
On 02/26/15 00:01, John Morris wrote:
>
> A generic devuan user is present, no idea of the
> password so I set one for both it and root.
> 
*** I brute-forced it: my first attempt was 'devuan' and worked ;o)

I'm impressed by all the testing you did.  You may want to open some
issues in the gitlab.  That would make a good test suite for the next ISO.

https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/issues (there's a "Datalove
Pre-Release" milestone)

==
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Re: [Dng] Devuan Logo survey

2015-02-26 Thread hellekin
On 02/26/15 10:24, Linuxito wrote:
> The survey was configured to allow only one vote for IP address.
> 
*** Which allows me, a Tor user, to reload the page and vote again.
When will people realize that IP address != person?  What about people
sharing a proxy? "Sorry, you already voted!" "N!"

Anyway, jaromil, please don't waste a cent to allow a larger survey.
This is pointless and would do more harm than good to waste supporters
money on bikeshedding.  None of the proposed logos will be used for
reasons explained earlier: they are mostly rough ideas, directions.  And
we probably won't use any before 1.0, as in: subject to change.  If some
proposal gets consensus, we'll see.

Martijn seems to have a solution for polls, let's do that instead.  FWIW.

The logo threads are multiplying: it shows the impatience is growing.
What I'd like to see instead is a focus on a real issue we have, which
is shipping desktop background designs.  This is not a unique item, so
people can have the distro shipped with the background they'd like to
use.  Isn't that more interesting?

==
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Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges

2015-02-27 Thread hellekin
On 02/27/15 16:21, Ста Деюс wrote:
> 
> Awesome! As it is the planet-wide project, why make it necessary to
> translate even logo into languages? - Let it be just graphical stuff.
> 
*** Why is everybody looking for the One Ring to Rule Them All?  Can't
we have unity through diversity?  Are we all subject of Mordor's torpor
and subjugation?

I'd like to see logos I can't read: in Cyrillic, in Mandarin, in Arabic,
...  If "if" makes a great logo for English-speaking people, what makes
a great logo for Indians?  Embrace cultural differences for freedom sake!

==
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Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News XI

2015-02-27 Thread hellekin
On 02/27/15 16:16, Ста Деюс wrote:
> 
> It is swear to me, and can/ be for others.
>
*** *I* used "kickass" in the common slang meaning of "very good or
impressive", or "very effective".  As a non-native English speaker as
well, it didn't occur to me that it was impolite to do so, and
apparently the people who worked on this issue were not shocked either.
 As was mentioned before, anyone is welcome to participate in the
editing process of the DWN, so I recommend that you join us on Monday so
that such offense does not happen again.

==
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[Dng] Doc Devuan

2015-03-01 Thread hellekin
https://git.devuan.org/devuan-doc group is looking for participants,
especially Debianites working with the Debian Documentation Project.

So far the existing Debian Manuals repository was imported from the SVN,
and available at https://git.devuan.org/devuan-doc/debian-manuals

https://git.devuan.org/devuan-doc/devuan-reference includes the original
Debian Quick Reference in the debian-reference branch, and the master is
mostly a placeholder for now.  I suppose it would be doable to activate
Asciidoc support in the Gitlab wiki to be able to minimize the changes
in documentation from Debian to Devuan.

Plans include using devuan.org/doc like debian.org/doc for general
devuan reference.  It will obviously take some time before Devuan has
its own documentation independent from Debian's.  In the meantime, we're
using the devuan-doc/manuals wiki at
https://git.devuan.org/devuan-doc/manuals/wikis/help.

Steve Litt inaugurated it with
https://git.devuan.org/devuan-doc/manuals/wikis/how-to-use-dmenu-in-devuan
\o/

Cheers,

==
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[Dng] Devuan Weekly News XIV - Where no toy has gone before

2015-03-02 Thread hellekin
# Devuan Weekly News Issue XIV

__Volume 002, Week 9, Devuan Week 14__

Released 03/03/12015 [HE](why-he)

https://git.devuan.org/Envite/devuan-weekly-news/wikis/past-issues/volume-02/issue-014

## Editorial

It's hard to believe it's winter when you have to mop the sweat out of
your keyboard, but the intensity of this week's conversations, and
@golinux's [penguins][0] made thinking about cold easier.  Cold reigns
in deep space as well and Devuan users will appreciate the identity
moving away from toyland: although Debian Jessie refers to an
adventurous toy cowgirl with an attitude, Devuan's Jessie refers to a
place no toy has ever gone before.  Exit the naughty `Sid` brat,
welcome `Ceres`, largest object in the asteroid belt, and the first
minor planet discovered in the 19th Century.  That's right, [Devuan
release codenames][1] will be named after minor planets of our solar
system.  As far as visual identity goes, and although the logo still
consumes a significant bit of attention, it won't be revealed before
the code: part of the distro's publishing policy is to deliver working
code before a shiny image.  Welcome to Issue XIV of the DWN, cooked
_al dente_ by your interim editor, @hellekin, with the invaluable help
of @golinux and @joerg_rw.

## Last Week in Devuan

### [Debian Problems with Jessie][2]

T.J.Duchene advises not to bring "Debian mud" to the list: "Devuan
does not need to justify its own existence." Here comes the largest
thread this week: a swashbuckling introspective and speculative bubble
visiting what's wrong with collective creation of software. (It all
started with _Simple Backgrounds_, go figure.)

### [Three Important UI Features][3]

Last week Jonathan Wilkes introduced the idea of improving the
features for the default devuan desktop.  Wolfgang Pirker proposes two
solutions for the "find apps as you type" #2 feature.  Feature #3
"menu on the Super key" can be addressed with `dmenu`.  A consensual
voice raises in favor of Xfce as the default desktop environment (DE),
which comes with its own implementation equivalent to what dmenu
provides.

In passing, for your hacker jeopardy, here's a funky compiler flag in
`Enlightenment` that will probably break the layout of many screen
applications displaying this:
`--enable-i-really-know-what-i-am-doing-and-that-this-will-probably-break-things-and-i-will-fix-them-myself-and-send-patches-aba`.

### [Xfce Desktop Environment in Devuan][4]

As `Xfce 4.12` was released this week on the 28th of February, it was
also chosen to become the default DE in Devuan, which makes it the
first _non-systemd_ difference between cowgirl Jessie and planet
Jessie.  David Harrison talked with the Xfce team, and @jaromil
confirms existing coordination and good terms between Devuan and Xfce.

### [Logind Alternative][5]

Oz Tiram introduces the `ConsoleKit2` fork that does not depend on
`systemd-logind`.  Svante Signell offers to package it for Devuan.
Dima Krasner reminds that "ConsoleKit2 was already packaged by Max,
but we don't need it in the Jessie cycle because the logind dependency
was dropped from all packages."

### [Simple Backgrounds][6]

Hendrik Boom is concerned not to delay the first release for designing
the project's visual identity (and he's right). As @jaromil puts it:
"Devuan is sugar-free and doesn't makes your computer fat :^)" See the


editorial.

### More of Devuan Logo

Discussions abound regarding the potential Devuan logo.  Linuxito
announces a [graphical version of the survey][7], warning that it's
informative, and Anto notes that a logo without matching text "would
look strange".  In [another thread][8], Hendrik Boom suggests using
the Milky Way as the basis for the logo (that was before the release
code names were announced, but it was in the air).  Tzu-Pei Chen shows
that a single-arm spiral galaxy exists, which Hendrik qualifies as
"debian galaxy", leaving the interpretation of the comment's depth to
the astute reader.  Neo Futur engages in the [philosophy of KISS][9].

### The Valentine <3 Pre-Release Support

More people come with feedback over the Valentine Pre-Release ISO.
Please [report any issue][10] with this release so the team can ensure


these are gone in the next batch.  John Morris reports [quite a few
issues][11], some of them coming from Debian Installer itself.  His
verdict: "most problems were fixable and process 1 is init
so Winning!"

Hendrik Boom plans [to install Valentine pre-alpha on real
hardware][12].  So far he got the hardware to boot from USB using the
`isohybrid` method as `dd` would not work, but got stuck with manual
partitioning: the disk seems not to offer a safe option to [preserve
existing partitions][13].  He also mentions a long-standing but minor
bug in debootstrap that prevents Debian from offering multiple inits.
Svan

Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges

2015-03-03 Thread hellekin
On 03/03/15 18:38, Isaac Dunham wrote:
> 
> If I understand correctly, the point of the allusion is that the quest
> for *one and only one* solution is not desireable.
>
*** Indeed, Isaac, that was my point.  It's not just for the IF badges
though, but a general principle: we tend to forget about diversity,
especially as globalization has been soaring and the "Western"
monoculture has been taken as the unique valid point of view, the "best
of the best", etc.  Unity, yes, through diversity!

==
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Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News XIV - Where no toy has gone before

2015-03-04 Thread hellekin
On 03/04/15 05:07, Gravis wrote:
> 
> no way, the first has to be dedicated to Lennart!  just think
>
*** Someone already coined a term to remove dependencies on his code:
depoetterizing.  This is not a cult to Lennart P.  Just think again.
Lenny is a past release, but Devuan is not looking back.

==
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Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-04 Thread hellekin
On 03/02/15 23:23, Gravis wrote:
> consider grouping your emails as "conversations" as it is a wonderful
> option for organizing mailing list threads.
>
*** Thanks for this, but the topic having drifted a lot: the thread
should also have been renamed.  If any of you would like to contribute a
summary, you're welcome to chime in to #devuan-news.  Otherwise I doubt
that anyone wants to cover it in the next issue of DWN because it's way
off-topic and a lot of reading.  Maybe that could be a way to reset the
thread into something workable.  I doubt people coming to the mailing
list at this point will understand anything about "simple backgrounds"
or "Debian problems with Jesse" (sic).  [OT] is the last bit of
information in the Subject.

==
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Re: [Dng] Devuan Logo survey

2015-03-04 Thread hellekin
On 03/04/15 17:13, x...@openmailbox.org wrote:
> 
> I'm not a professional artist, but
>
*** You're quite talented :)

The monkey looks a bit aggressive, I don't think it needs to be.  If you
have more sketches, I'd love to see them.

Cheers,

==
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Re: [Dng] release names

2015-03-04 Thread hellekin
On 03/04/15 23:23, Gravis wrote:
>> So, basically we will be using mithology for names.
>
*** Although Homer was verbose on names, I doubt he ever reached
670,000.  Once the astronomers depleted the stock of gods, semi-gods,
muses, spirits, heroes and so forth, they ventured into baptizing space
objects after actual people's names.

One day everyone will have their own star.  That is, if the Mormons keep
feeding their database, NSA keeps recording every digital fart ever made
by humans, and we don't blow ourselves out into oblivion.

When you think of it, long after the Internet is shutdown, future
archeologists will rely on the gossip and mass-mediocrity of our times
to figure out the civilization that made space travel possible;
reconstructed issues from hundreds of salvaged copies of People magazine
will still haunt the dreams of scientists trying to solve the mystery of
our global failure.

These people... were killing evolved carbon-oxygen converters to print
blurry pictures of the underwear of insignificant members of their
species.  They were breeding heroes on glossy paper and cocaine,
defining the future waving oil-based plastic flags in unison as their
elected gods passing by in armored vehicles at a safe distance, showing
their made-up smirking faces on giant displays, were deciding their fate
inventing problems that did not exist before.  How they could reach
beyond their home planet's atmosphere remains a speculative and highly
controversial research field.

==
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Re: [Dng] Plan for Devuan to use Mozilla products as is

2015-03-04 Thread hellekin
On 03/04/15 21:29, william moss wrote:
> 
> Opera for the browser.
>
*** Last time I checked, Opera was proprietary software.

Did you see how I edited the email?

==
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Re: [Dng] [bikeshedding] release names

2015-03-06 Thread hellekin
This thread is not about changing the release names.  Read the first
message.  Do you have time on you hands?  Please help review this week's
postings for the next weekly news.  There's also a TODO list on the
gitlab.  Seriously...

https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/wikis/devuan-codenames

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[Dng] Hardened Devuan (was Re: Plan for Devuan to use Mozilla products as is)

2015-03-06 Thread hellekin
On 03/06/15 05:06, Neo Futur wrote:
>> the Grsecurity/Pax hardening of the kernel, will you think of it,
>> instead of SELinux, or as an option besides SELinux? It sure will be
>> attainable in the way I got it in Debian in that Tip, but official
>> support would be so great!
> 
> https://git.devuan.org/groups/hardened
> 
> we are a few guys planning to try and maintain a grsec kernel for
> devuan, for now we are waiting for a bevuan beta version before
> starting working on it.
> anyone interested, feel free to join !
>
*** I'm so happy to see this group.  I've been using this kernel lately,
running on Parabola:

  3.14.34-gnu-201502271838-1-lts-grsec-knock

GRSecurity, and Knock support.  Knock is a kernel patch that enables
single packet port knocking [0], thwarting common scanning attacks.  I
would love to see this running on Devuan.  Parabola GNU/Linux was the
first distro to deploy it, and I've been using it happily with SSH.

==
hk

[0]: https://gnunet.org/kirsch2014knock

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Re: [Dng] Devuan Alpha i386 - developers release series on Vagrant

2015-03-06 Thread hellekin
On 03/06/15 22:11, Jaromil wrote:
> 
> vagrant init jaromil/devuan-alpha-i386
> 
*** Nice.  Can you add libvirt and/or lxc providers?

https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/wikis/try-devuan-on-vagrant

==
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Re: [Dng] [bikeshedding] release names

2015-03-07 Thread hellekin
Maybe it's just me but I don't understand what you're contemplating.

Why do you think Devuan should use a more complicated set of suites than
Debian?

Ceres is aliased to `sid`, so it's not testing, but unstable.  The way
Debian handles testing, code freezes, etc. is not 1:1 with Devuan (or so
I hope), so jessie+1 in both distributions will certainly be different
(more than Jessie).  My guess is that the automation jaromil and nextime
are setting up now will ease the integration of upstream packages, in a
way that will make Devuan a faster moving target than Debian.  It's not
necessary to rush things and make anything more complicated: Debian's
release cycle has been delivering stability and we should probably keep
most of it.  If Devuan release cycle differs, it's on the pace it
integrates new packages in Ceres, not how these packages enter testing, IMO.

==
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Re: [Dng] Devuan Alpha i386 - developers release series on Vagrant

2015-03-07 Thread hellekin
On 03/07/15 05:59, JeremyBekka C wrote:
>
> how can I get Vagrant to run in Gentoo?
> 
*** As mentioned at [0], the way to go is to install it using Rubygems.

https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/wikis/try-devuan-on-vagrant

==
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Re: [Dng] Hardened Devuan

2015-03-07 Thread hellekin
On 03/06/15 20:27, Adam Borowski wrote:
> 
> It looks like Knock breaks everything TCP SQN is used for.
> 
*** You obviously didn't read the paper and are happily FUDing like it's
Pearl Harbor.  Knock only changes the Initial Sequence Number of the TCP
packet, overriding the default MD5 hash used in the stock kernel to use
something meaningful to both the client and the server.  It doesn't
change anything about how TCP works.

I'm looking forward to see this patch packaged.

==
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Re: [Dng] release names

2015-03-07 Thread hellekin
On 03/07/15 14:21, william moss wrote:
>
>> Cool yes, but useful? Numbers have the huge advantage that everybody knows
>> their order, which is quite important when referring to versions.
>
*** Release *NAMES* never replaced version numbers.

Hence Debian 8 "Jessie" and Devuan 1.0 "Jessie".

==
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Re: [Dng] greets

2015-03-09 Thread hellekin
On 03/09/15 19:26, Christopher Barry wrote:
> 
> these democratic ideas. Unfortunately, just like in real government,
> special interests can stack the deck (e.g. dominate committees) and
> push things that are self serving and maybe not in the best interests
> of the greater community.
>
*** Welcome Christopher!

I agree with you that Devuan governance needs to differ from Debian's,
and that is must consider the general interest as well as respect the
particular.

Given the amount of speculation around what Devuan is and how it will
evolve, I'd rather give it a chance to actually get there before we can
start a discussion from a solid ground, rather than get to speak about
the shadow of aliens, and how your vision is necessarily inferior to
mine, because mine was raised by true Trolls that turn into stone when
they meditate, etc.

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Re: [Dng] greets

2015-03-10 Thread hellekin
On 03/10/15 11:57, Steve Litt wrote:
> 
> LOL
>
*** Can you expand the acronym?  I'm not sure I find anything funny here.

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[Dng] Systemd: it depends -- was Re: release date

2015-03-17 Thread hellekin
On 03/17/15 18:57, Anto wrote:
> 
> I asked the questions whether Devuan will be really free from systemd
> and its components? Or will there be trade-off being applied so that
> some of systemd components will be used in Devuan?
>
*** I'm merely repeating what's been said before, and I'm not ointed by
the VUA, so don't take my word for theirs...

The goal of Devuan is to produce a distro in the continuity with Debian
Wheezy, based on Jessie, but without any of the systemd cruft being
mandatory.  The first step is to enable Jessie to run without systemd.

Devuan provides free init, letting the user choose which init system
they want to use.  Obviously, because the primary job is to remove the
mandatory dependency on systemd, if you choose to run systemd, you'd
better stick with Debian.  Now if you want to run standard GNU utilities
to do what systemd wants to replace beyond init, you're in the right place.

There are a couple of systemd components whose dependency is harder to
remove, such as logind and udevd, especially for the GNOME desktop that
highly integrates with systemd.  Work is currently being done to replace
them or at least provide a systemd shim that would allow developers to
keep working on a compatible layer without the need for any systemd
components.

Once Jessie is done, running without systemd, then the
systemd-compatibility will mostly depend on the evolution of Debian,
because I can't imagine the Devuan developers spending much of their
time accommodating systemd developers' poor choices.  But I also expect
that by that time (ASCII or ASCII+1), systemd will have become
irrelevant to most of us.

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Re: [Dng] greetings & how to help

2015-03-18 Thread hellekin
On 03/18/15 10:56, Udo Rader wrote:
> Haven't tried it for myself, but the Wiki says there are native qemu
> images as well:
> 
> https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/wikis/try-devuan-on-qemu
>
*** This was the first pre-alpha release and to my knowledge has not
been updated since.  The Vagrant image is almost up-to-date.  Jaromil
said he will add support for qemu (at least) in the next bake.

If you can't wait, you may try doing it yourself using the devuan-sdk.
https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-sdk

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Re: [Dng] rumors on RMS about systemd at libreplanet

2015-03-22 Thread hellekin
Would it be possible to avoid offensive characterization of people who
do not think along the same lines?

Would it be possible to avoid gender-biased characterization of people
who are participating in this list?

Thank you

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Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?

2015-04-02 Thread hellekin
On 04/02/2015 07:36 PM, Franco Lanza wrote:
> Personally on debian i was using from date
> 
> APT:Install-Recommends "0";
> APT:Install-Suggests "0";
> 
> What do you think if we make this the default in devuan?
>
*** +1.  I'm all for minimalism in Devuan, and encouraging people to use
Blends for extended setups.

Maybe there should be a meta-package that people who expect the system
to suck in everything can install to get back the greedy experience.  In
any case, this should be documented.

In the upcoming https://talk.devuan.org/ there's a topic to document and
discuss the differences between Jessie the cowgirl and Jessie the minor
planet.  Oh, did I just announce the Devuan forum?

==
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[Dng] Call for factoids on the Debian fork

2015-04-03 Thread hellekin
Hello dears,

one of the current tasks of the Devuan Editors is to gather facts about
the Debian fork in order to write a compelling story to be told on
debianfork.org.

This domain will hopefully be the place to deflect and defuse any troll
about the Debian fork and systemd, in order to focus devuan.org on the
actual distro work.

Any help is welcome to gather original emails, timelines, witness
accounts, key people and facts.  The objective, I repeat, is to gather
facts, not gossip, and not opinions or feelings about systemd.

What I want to do is reply to the question: "why did Devuan fork
Debian?" in the most sensible way possible.  (Incidentally, "how" it
happened may also be relevant ;o)

If you'd like to get involved in the writing process, please idle on
#devuan-www on Freenode IRC.  Thank you for your attention and for your
help.

==
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Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?

2015-04-05 Thread hellekin
On 04/03/2015 01:28 PM, Anto wrote:
> 
> The login form seems to support the synchronisation with Gitlab account,
> which I also already registered a few months back. But I got nginx 404
> error when I clicked on "with Gitlab".
> 
*** The single-sign-on with Gitlab requires a Gitlab setting which I
don't control.  It was supposed to come with last upgrade (March 20?)
but I didn't get notified about anything, so I'm calling whoever is root
on git.devuan.org to coordinate with me so we can have this running soon.

==
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Re: [Dng] Too many man pages, too much complicated : systemd

2015-04-06 Thread hellekin
On 04/06/2015 04:23 PM, Jude Nelson wrote:
>  Second, I can't take all the credit :)  Besides the VUA collective
> (Jaromil, Nextime, Hellekin, and others?), there's also:
>
*** I'm not VUA.  They are genuine spaghetti-raised Italians, I'm just
an exiled Piemontese from the XVth Century.  I can barely keep up with
the Prosecco and a Fragolino would kill me for the day, without
mentioning grappa.  No, no, the VUA are a special case.  I'm simply one
of us, one who wants this project to live on and thrive, and responded
to the call that "those who do will have a say."  I'm here to herd cats.
 Black ones, stray ones.  From the gutter or roaming on a burning roof,
with datalove.

==
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Re: [Dng] dev-list

2015-04-08 Thread hellekin
FYI, I've been working on a Discourse instance for Devuan, so that we
can have the best of both worlds (email and forum).  If this happens,
the developers can simply ignore threads they're not interested in and
keep focused on work.  The forum form is likely to grow beyond what any
single person can follow anyway, so I hope the email integration will be
good enough for the purpose of replacing the mailing list.  Nothing
written in stone though, just a general intention.

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Re: [Dng] dev-list

2015-04-08 Thread hellekin
On 04/08/2015 11:57 AM, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> Rather than dividing the list between developers and users,
> it would be better to divide them betwen technical and nontechnical.
> 
*** We could use mailman's topics for that.  When you want to talk about
development, use the [dev] tag in the Subject, and if you're not
interested in anything else, simply subscribe to the [dev] topic and
ignore the rest.

==
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Re: [Dng] dev-list

2015-04-08 Thread hellekin
On 04/08/2015 07:44 PM, Joerg Reisenweber wrote:
> 
> We got #debianfork and #devuan IRC channels for pretty much the same reasons, 
> and it seems it sort of works there. So for ML that would be the natural 
> template to follow.
>
*** Except the move from IRC to email matches in nature the move from
fish to mammals.  Two completely different worlds.  On IRC it makes
sense to use as many channels as you like, because you're just an Alt-A
away from any of them.  We have #debianfork for, well, general chat.  We
have #devuan, which was originally a split for developers, but became a
tad more chatty than anticipated.  And then we have #devuan-dev where
bots spit commits like it's raining bits, so people there hardly chat.
I really don't believe there's a natural template to follow there,
besides NOT alienating users and devs.

What I'm looking forward to is having a single "Devuan community
channel" that people can use via email or Web seamlessly, and where
specific groups can form and have focused discussions while other people
will chat away their lives for their own and others' enjoyment.  But at
any moment, someone can send a heads up and have all eyeballs watching
that group fading away and call them back to the center of everyone's
attention.  This won't happen with split lists.

This already happens on the gitlab where issues can be used as focused
back and forth communication media to get things done.  I hope the forum
can satisfy the needs of a larger community who won't necessarily adopt
a pragmatic and utilitarian approach of "tracking issues".  All things
being equal, I'd rather stick to the minimalist mailing list approach:
one.  I'm already struggling to read any single mailing list regularly
not to have another two lists in my inbox.

==
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Re: [Dng] dev-list

2015-04-08 Thread hellekin
On 04/09/2015 01:15 AM, Martijn Dekkers wrote:
>> We do not need another list.
>>
> 
> That's pretty arrogant. Can you back that up with some actual reasons, like
> others in this discussion are doing? Or is this simply a case of "because I
> said so"
> 

It's not arrogant, it's a fact.  There's not even a single release, only
a dozen or so regular participants, and you already want to detach
developers from users?  You're proposing to solve a problem that does
not exist yet.  People used to mailing lists use filters when they're
annoyed with the traffic.

==
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Re: [Dng] dev-list

2015-04-08 Thread hellekin
On 04/09/2015 01:17 AM, Martijn Dekkers wrote:
> 
> The reason the vast majority of projects use separate lists is because it
> *works* [dev] tagged topics don't work very well, because in most cases,
> people tend to forget, or change the subjectline, or whatever.
> 
*** I agree that Mailman's topics suck because it's on the poster to
remember to put the tag.  The good thing though, is that developers are
more likely to learn the trick than non-developers, especially if they
automate this when sending to the list*, which developers know how to
do, right?  So noise automatically gets below the threshold with a
minimal effort.

* On the condition they stick to posting "work-related stuff" and
refrain from being human.

But I'd rather have a "mailing list" system that allows anyone to
subscribe once, and then select topics they are actually interested in
participating to, rather than segregating from the start.

==
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Re: [Dng] dev-list

2015-04-08 Thread hellekin
On 04/09/2015 01:13 AM, Martijn Dekkers wrote:
> 
> Thats just uninformed bullshit.
>
> [snip]
> 
> list). Interestingly, I see two broad groups. Those that want a simple dev
> list, and those that absolutely don't want other people to have one, for
> the most tenuous of arguments.
>
*** I see another two groups: people who want to work together and build
something different that won't end up in an isolated technical committee
in their ivory towers, and bullies.

==
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Re: [Dng] dev-list

2015-04-08 Thread hellekin
On 04/08/2015 09:49 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
>
> I make the following pledge to make sure I don't cause or continue conflict
> or noise on Dng:
> 
> 1) I will not respond, at least on-list, to any thread discussing the
> merits or shames of systemd. I will either ignore, respond offlist, or
> filter and move on.
> 
> 2) If discussing init systems, I will confine myself to their
> technicalities and possible concerns about future changes.
> 
> 3) I will be nice in my on-list responses.
> 
> 4) Any "don't feed the troll" responses I give will be offlist.
>
*** +1.

We do not need another list.  If and when we do, we can think about it.
 It's the third message I send on the same topic in three different
threads.  I can't see that as being very productive.

==
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Re: [Dng] The new forum

2015-04-08 Thread hellekin
On 04/08/2015 06:34 PM, Go Linux wrote:
> 
> It bears little resemblance to the technical forums to which I have become
> accustomed.
>
*** Thank you.  I really hope non-technical people will like it.  I hate
technical discussions about computers.  They suck, because they're
either dick-wagging contests or quickly fall far from the humans
supposedly benefiting from them.  It's time for people to amplify their
minds, and not suffer the diktat of flat-ass belly-rounded specialists.

> Badges?  Really??  Good grief!
> 
*** That's a default feature of the system.  It can be disabled.  It
could also prove useful.  It consists in specific requests against the
database.  I have no opinion about them.

> Why can't we have a no-fills forum that isn't so cutsy, socially-tainted
> and icon-laden?
>
*** There's an option that is (allegedly) activated to enable
participation by email, and that's the principle feature I'm looking
forward to see working and working well.

> it seems to cater to a completely different crowd than the one populating
> this list.
>
*** Yes, I anticipate that the more successful we are, the less email
freaks will haunt the community--says an email freak.  An important
point to keep in mind is that this system (supposedly) can function as a
mailing list, except you can opt-in (or out) or what you actually want
to receive in your inbox.  Another advantage of the forum, and this one
in particular, is the ability to recompose topics so that conversation
becomes discussion, and discussion becomes documentation.

==
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Re: [Dng] fontawesome icon fix!

2015-04-11 Thread hellekin
Did you check that the fonts now display correctly (without the userscript)?

==
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[Dng] Devuan financial report

2015-04-16 Thread hellekin
The donations page [0] says "Next one is due by the end of March 2015."

Did I miss it?

==
hk

[0]: https://devuan.org/donate.html

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[Dng] Devuan News, volume 02, issue XXIV

2015-05-13 Thread hellekin
# Devuan News Issue XXIV

__Volume 02, Week 19, Devuan Week 24__

Released Tuesday, 12015/05/12 [HE](why-he)

https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-news/wikis/past-issues/volume-02/issue-024

## Editorial

You may have noticed that some time has elapsed since the last issue was
published. We are sorry for that delay.

One of the reasons is the lack of free time as the newsletter is a
volunteer project and there is a lot of hard work going on with the
developers.

But *Devuan Weekly News* hasn't disappeared, we're still here. And now
we are officially dropping *'Weekly'* from our name. For two reasons.

The first reason is to avoid confusion with the Debian Weekly News (also
DWN).  The Devuan newsletter will now be known as Devuan News (DN).

The second reason is the lack of (wo)man power. The DN will be published
when it's published depending on our collective circumstances and
inclinations.

A final note goes to thank all the volunteers working on the Devuan News.

*You* make this possible.

@etech3

## Lately in Devuan

### [vdev status update][3]

Jude keeps delivering the goods with `vdev`.  After having extracted
`libudev` from `systemd 219` , he shares a difficulty with
the initial idea of using `inotify(2)` to monitor devices changes, and
announces a workaround plan.

Any feedback on the above development plan is welcome, especially if a
simpler, more robust approach can be found.

Thanks to all who followed [Jude's instruction to provide testing
information for vdev development][3a].  Keep'em coming!

### [Financial report, 1st trimester 2015][4]

This report from @jaromil also includes a summary of the Devuan
project's development.

### [Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?][5]

There was a thread started by Anto which included several interesting
responses:

From jaromil -
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150505.173308.c2f664a8.en.html

From Isaac Dunham -
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150505.235121.db200a9a.en.html

### [A novice attempt to speed up Devuan development][6]

Anto posted on his Devuan installation via debootstrap.

### [Please stop vain discussion][7]

Didier commented on yet another debate over whether Devuan should allow
systemd usage or forbid it completely.

@nextime responded with a statement about Devuan generic policy and systemd:

> "The official position is we will support anything that can be
packaged without hijacking the whole system to be installed. Actually
systemd doesn't match this requirement, so, Devuan will not support it
as long it doesn't radically change. Anyway we will not intentionally
obstacle anyone that eventually wants to use it outside official Devuan
release."

### [I used Devuan's debootstrap and installed Devuan][8]

Several users (like Edward Bartolo and David Hare) reported their
experiences with Devuan's new debootstrap.

### [Linux boot documentation][9]

Steve Litt announced his latest oeuvre which generated an interesting
technical discussion of the boot process.

### Are we there yet?

There has been some chatter on and off the last few weeks (on the IRC
channels) relating to the

Q: "Has there been an official release of Devuan?"

A: There is no official release as of yet, but a testable iso
([pre-alpha][pre-alpha] and a [vagrant][vagrant] version).

Q: Are there any rough estimates for the first release? is it more like
2 months or more like a year?

A: "When it's ready" :D

nextime responded "when it is ready, but at least I can assure that it
isn't a year".

## Devuan's Not Gnome

DNG is the discussion list of the Devuan Project.

- [Subscribe to the list][subscribe]
- [Subscribe to the feed][atom-feed]
- [Read online archives][archives]

---
Read you soon!

Devuan News is made by your peers: you're [welcome to contribute][wiki]!

+ Created by Noel "@Envite" Torres
+ @hellekin (editor at large)
+ @golinux (word wrangler)
+ @lightbringer (AKA. MinceR, sentence fixaupper)
+ @DocScrutinizer05 (proofreader)
+ @etech3 (markdown master in training MMIT)

--

[3]:
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150406.203624.a1b96212.en.html
"vdev status update"

[3a]:
https://git.devuan.org/pkgs-utopia-substitution/vdev/blob/master/how-to-test.md
"How to test vdev"

[4]:
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150503.224708.236843dd.en.html
"Financial report, 1st trimester 2015"

[5]:
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150505.105746.fea9a964.en.html
"Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?"

[6]:https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150505.065520.2303aae4.en.html
"A novice attempt to speed up Devuan development"

[7]:
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/thread/20150506.194559.3168e0c6.en.html
"Please stop vain discussion"

[8]:
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/201505

Re: [Dng] Document on using Qemu for Linux DIY

2015-05-14 Thread hellekin
On 05/14/2015 08:18 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
> 
> sharing host and guest /tmp/xfer directory via sshfs.
> 
*** I use the Plan9 way for sharing folders (per someone's suggestion on
the list):

https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/wikis/try-devuan-on-qemu#sharing-a-folder-with-the-host

==
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Re: [Dng] straw poll, non-free firmware for installers

2015-06-03 Thread hellekin
On 06/03/2015 05:53 AM, James Powell wrote:
> If the firmware aids in compatibility and driver support then yes, include it.
>
*** I think non-free anything should not be "included" by default.  For
the sake of "universality", they should be available to people who
actually need them.  Many people will expect non-free drivers to be
readily available during installation, and they'd be "right" to do so.
Not because such hardware should be supported, but because most of the
time, users do not have control over the production of hardware (nor the
consumption: "good" hardware is less readily available than "bad" one.)

As Devuan offers a pretty easy and automated way to make a custom build,
maybe we should take advantage of this, and provide a way for
downloading non-free blobs during install, after the detection was made.
 This way would at least make users aware of the problem.

Moreover, this would enable surveying what non-free software sneak in
our machines on a large scale and help fight this situation.  If we just
tuck in non-free drivers in the default installer, we make it normal to
surrender our rights to hardware manufacturers.  On the contrary, we
should expose them*.

Some people will not have this kind of ethical dilemma and will happily
burn a modified Devuan version with all the malware tucked in.  And it's
good they do, because in some cases that means the machine will run at
all.  But for the sake of Devuan, I wish we did not provide that product
ourselves for it should be the proprietary software and hardware
vendors-defectors who should provide for their own needs, and not the
cooperative community.

==
hk

*: it would be awesome if we could simply feed the h-node.org database
automatically to report working and failing components automatically.

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Re: [Dng] straw poll, non-free firmware for installers

2015-06-03 Thread hellekin
On 06/03/2015 12:06 PM, Nate Bargmann wrote:
>
> IMO, network hardware that needs a non-free blob is the most glaring
> issue
>
*** Yes, indeed, many computers come with broken hardware that won't
work without installing proprietary software.  I think this case is the
single case that should be exemplary: the official Devuan network
installer should not, IMO, support this case.  It is not against users,
but against manufacturers.  We all know what the workaround is: build an
installer with the required firmware.  Well, I think that work should be
supported by manufacturers, not by the community.

==
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Re: [Dng] straw poll, non-free firmware for installers

2015-06-03 Thread hellekin
On 06/03/2015 11:37 AM, Laurent Bercot wrote:
> 
> about licensing purity.
> 

and:

>  But whatever you do, don't paternalize the users. There's nothing more
> infuriating than an infantilizing message in the way of what you want to
> do.
> 

and:

> Your users chose Devuan: they already have made a good choice.

and:

> do not disrespect them by force-feeding them moralistic crap they don't
> care about and that will only antagonize them.
> 
*** I must I was almost agreeing until "moralistic crap".  This is your
opinion, and in my own, an unfounded one.  What we're talking about here
is about technology, not moralistic anything.

The technology we're building is one that empowers the user, and it is
arguable whether considering the imposition of freedom-restricting
technology empowers the use or not.  The case is hardware that the user
buys and that refuses to work without secret code from the company.
Would you buy a car if the seller would tell you that you will need to
use their own specific fuel and tires, and only drive highways?  Of
course not, because you buy a mean of transport, not an universal ticket
for free transportation.

If Devuan is to replace Debian in its role of a foundation for free
software distribution, then it needs to be closer to Debian, not to
Ubuntu.  And since we have the opportunity to discuss the matter, I'm
for a "core" distribution of free software, that enables anyone to build
upon that core, including softening its edges and allow it to enable
self-rendition to proprietary software.

This core distribution should fly high the colors of software freedom,
because nobody else will do.  And a fundamental software freedom is you
can use it for any purpose, including making yourself a slave of
corporations.  But that should be a choice, and one that the
distribution does not encourage by default.

Now, the base installer is such a vector of individuation, as Debian 8
demonstrated by using it to install systemd.  Systemd is free software,
but we don't like it to be installed by default.  Now we would frown at
it and happily include non-free software in our base installer?  I
really don't see the point.  Again, that people buy hardware requiring
non-free software to run is a problem, but that problem does not need to
be ignored and dismissed, it needs to be confronted and fixed.

==
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Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes

2015-07-14 Thread hellekin
On 07/14/2015 09:59 PM, Franco Lanza wrote:
> More than the already know switch from gnome to xcfe4 as the default
> desktop and the oblovious change to sysvinit instead of systemd, i would
> to propose some other default changes in the standard install:
> 
> nano -> vim
> exim -> postfix
> 
> 
> what do you guys think about that?
> 
*** I think the 1.0 release should focus on replacing systemd init with
sysvinit, and the choice of XFCE for the desktop was part of this
strategy. There's no substantial reason rather than personal preference
to change other packages from the base install. Such changes can, and
should be made using custom preseed files, for example.

Debian/Devuan have a number of ways to customize a setup (tasks, seeds,
blends, etc.) and this should become a primary objective once 1.0 is
out. It is my conviction that a system wishing universality should keep
options as diverse as possible for the people who will use it. From that
perspective, I see Devuan as a base system, suitable for building upon
it. I believe configurations and presets are where the Devuan community
can shine, and that the devuan-sdk is a great starting point to choose
this route.

Doing this would encourage Debian developers to reflect on their choice
to impose a narrower route to what's possible to do with the system. On
the contrary, changing too many default packages from a base install of
Debian would probably unnecessarily complicate things for people who
need to work with both systems.

That said, my personal choice has always been to install vim (in
addition to, not in replacement of GNU nano), and to replace exim by
postfix first thing (+ ssh, zsh, emacs, ...). But I agree with Dan that
postfix might be overkill for some users, and especially desktop users
who will use a remote setup for SMTP and IMAP servers. The ssmtp package
seems like a good alternative. I also agree with Golinux that vim is
simply unusable for profanes, especially those humans who expect
to be able to actually write text when they open an editor.

Cheers,

==
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Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes

2015-07-15 Thread hellekin
On 07/15/2015 07:41 PM, Didier Kryn wrote:
> If the gurus use vim and dislike nano, since they are
> gurus, they can change the default themselves and leave the ordinary
> people with a limited but usable editor.
> 
*** Totally agree: why put a burden on the profane when it takes two
seconds for any *NIX user to override the default editor?

When people open an editor, they want to type on the keyboard and see
their input reflected on the screen, not figure out why they can't. Vi
does not offer this by default, and I don't know if it can start in
INSERT mode.

Note that "vi -y", the "easy mode" seems to automatically switch to
INSERT mode when you type, but then it doesn't understand ESC-: for
commands AND does not accept C-Z to suspend*, so it's actually harder to
use than normal vi... /o\

Maybe IF AND ONLY IF vim-tiny can be started in INSERT mode and suggests
the user how to save, exit, and get help, then it can work as a good
replacement for nano.

* BTW, I don't think nano supports suspend by default in the upstream
configuration. That could be a good change to make to the default nano
configuration ("set suspend"). Nothing more annoying than being unable
to suspend a process (also looking at you "vi -y").

==
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Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes

2015-07-15 Thread hellekin
On 07/15/2015 01:40 PM, Franco Lanza wrote:
> 
> Well, in my personal opinion devuan should not focus on new users, as
> nor debian does.
> 
> For new users there are plenty of distros, most notable ubuntu, and we
> should not compete with it.
>
*** I STRONGLY oppose this view, and you already know why: there are
plenty of ways to build upon a minimalist base and provide an easy
"upgrade" from total newbie to guru in a snap with preseed files, tasks,
"seeds", or blends.

For example there should be a minimal base install of Devuan that allows
anyone to build upon and make a derivative; there should be a server
install aimed at system administrators, and there yes, you can default
to vim and postfix; and there should be a default desktop install with XFCE.

But making such choices as ignoring new users by default is in my
opinion a sorry strategy when it's so easy to build upon a sane base.

> 
> Second focus is to be a "base framework" for derivatives
>
*** Well, I think that the "base framework" should be the default
Devuan, and everything we do is built upon that e.g., as Blends.

==
hk

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[DNG] Devuan without salt

2015-07-15 Thread hellekin
Following the discussion on defaults and a couple of recent remarks from
Jaromil regarding audio ("for professionals") and Franco's opinion to
ignore new users and "focus on intermediate users", I'd like to make a
point: if Devuan is supposed to incarnate the legacy of Debian (as is
mentioned in the wiki: "We consider ourselves the actual Debian legacy."
[0]), there's a simple truth that should be crystal clear to anyone on
this list (pardon the pun):

  IT'S VERY EASY TO ADD SALT, BUT VERY HARD TO REMOVE IT.

Moreover, if Devuan delivers a base distro that actually invites users
to personalize it and share their preferences (popcorn with foresight),
then users will understand that this distribution is actually about
their freedom, and not just in words.

The "user" is a deadly trap of an abstraction, and Devuan should simply
consider that the "user" ranges from a 3-year-old kid using a computer
for the first time without supervision to Donald Knuth, and provide a
simple system to accommodate both with minimal effort (I guess you got
my position by now: using devuan-sdk, 'seeds', tasks, blends, and a
public repository à la Mozilla addons...).

==
hk

Reductionism is the art of focusing on the forces that fit a model in
order to maximize the probability of an experimental result matching the
theory. Complexity begs to differ.

[0]: https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/wikis/home

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Re: [DNG] proposed changes: the results

2015-07-17 Thread hellekin
On 07/16/2015 11:41 PM, Franco Lanza wrote:
> 
> What do you think about moving this way?
>
*** Your proposals are very consensual and pregnant of the users'
freedom of choice.  This is a great way to enable an open system
embracing variety and selection, and this should be kept in mind for
other future proposals.

Kudos,

==
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Re: [DNG] vi for beginners

2015-07-17 Thread hellekin
On 07/16/2015 06:24 PM, Riccardo Boninsegna wrote:
>>
>> :wq
> 
> ZZ (uppercase) saves and quits, no questions asked!
>

:x also saves and exits.

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[DNG] Devuan Security

2015-12-24 Thread hellekin
I suggest we add a devuan-security group on the gitlab, with a
secur...@devuan.org with a GPG key.

Any objection? Any volunteer?

==
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[DNG] How to enable LetsEncrypt Authority to access git.devuan.org (was Re: Expired SSL certificate for git.devuan.org)

2015-12-24 Thread hellekin
On 12/24/2015 03:24 PM, Don Wright wrote:
> 
> Perhaps Let's Encrypt isn't included in the default certification
> authorities in your Iceweasel build (unlikely). Visit
> https://letsencrypt.org and check the Support pages.  --Don
>

The Tor Browser Bundle plays fine with LetsEncrypt.  It uses Firefox
version 38.5.0.

Current Devuan (and Debian) Iceweasel version 38.4.0 is broken and
doesn't allow the user to bypass the alert (talk about freedom of
choice.)  All right, it's not broken, it simply respect HSTS.  Whatever,
it *looks* broken, and *acts* broken.

You can access the Gitlab if you add the *Let’s Encrypt Authority X1*
certificate by hand:

1. Get it from https://letsencrypt.org/certificates/ (direct link:
https://letsencrypt.org/certs/letsencryptauthorityx1.pem
2. Open Edit>Preferences>Advanced>Certificates>View Certificates
3. Click import, check the "trust for websites"
4. Save and reload the https://git.devuan.org/

==
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Re: [DNG] Devuan Weekly News LX (Errata)

2016-01-04 Thread hellekin
On 01/04/2016 03:07 PM, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
>>
>> https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-news/wikis/past-issues/volume-03/issue-060
>>
>> tips about UUID's][2], Arnt Karlsen talked about the [purpose of
> 
> ..er, I did not, I asked the (I believe timely) question
> "..where did the "/media tradition" come from anyway? "
> and thenafter it was Stephanie Daugherty who _answered_ 
> my question by talking about said purpose.
>

Thank you for this correction, Arnt.  It's been corrected on the Web
version.

==
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[DNG] git.devuan.org upgrade

2016-01-20 Thread hellekin
Hello,

git.devuan.org will go down for a scheduled upgrade on Friday, January
22nd, in the (EU) evening.

Cheers,

==
hk

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Re: [DNG] git.devuan.org upgrade

2016-01-22 Thread hellekin
On 01/20/2016 12:27 PM, hellekin wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> git.devuan.org will go down for a scheduled upgrade on Friday, January
> 22nd, in the (EU) evening.
> 

I am timezone-challenged :)  Hope everything is fine.  Please report any
anomalies.  Happy hacking!

==
hk

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Re: [DNG] ..tails boum boum boum: Tails 2.0 is out, systemd "coup d'etat" against torproject.org?

2016-01-29 Thread hellekin
Arnt Karlsen:
>
> and: https://tails.boum.org/news/version_2.0/index.en.html
> 
> ...
> 
> Change to systemd as init system
>

I think it makes sense for a Live CD desktop distribution to do so, as
it doesn't have to deal with legacy nor with broken upgrades, and it's
not upgrading a running server system with custom scripts.  If it
crashes, damage is very limited.

That said, I'd love to see a Devuan blend that mimicks Tails, Whonix,
JohnDoe, etc. and provides a secure live CD for anonymity and privacy
preservation.

==
hk

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Re: [DNG] Never say that again: was Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

2016-01-30 Thread hellekin
On 01/28/2016 01:16 AM, Arnt Karlsen wrote:

 ..small fish, nice tits. ;o)
>>>
>>> The preceding half sentence is one example of something that should
>>> NEVER appear in any Devuan venue. Ever.
>>>
> 
>
> ..either way,
>

I'm sorry to tell you, Arnt Karlsen, that the only correct answer you
should have made is to apologize for this sexist, thoughtless, idiotic
comment.

==
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Re: [DNG] Never say that again: was Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

2016-01-30 Thread hellekin
On 01/27/2016 07:27 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
> 
> We anti-systemd people are already a tiny minority.
>

Indeed, Steve, *you* are.

I'm not anti-systemd.  Systemd has the right to exist, like slugs, bugs,
rats, bullshit, bad coffee, or cyanide.  I just don't want to have
anything to do with it, and systemd should respect that choice.

My opinion on systemd has nothing to do with "we."  It has more to do
with "not interested."  Therefore I'm going to add a filter that trashes
threads mentioning systemd at all, and I urge you to do the same,
because Devuan is not about systemd, but about freedom of choice.
Obviously people who want systemd already have that choice, and it's not
related to this mailing list.

==
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Re: [DNG] Can I create other projects on git.devuan.org besides netman?

2016-01-31 Thread hellekin
On 01/31/2016 03:38 PM, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> Since space on servers costs money I am asking whether I am allowed to
> create other project on git.devuan.org?
> 

Everyone has 10 projects by default.  Did you reach that limit already?

==
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[DNG] Devuan News LX

2016-01-31 Thread hellekin
# Devuan News Issue LX

__Volume 03, Week 4, Devuan Week 60__

Released 12016/01/31 [HE](why-he)

https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-news/wikis/past-issues/volume-03/issue-060

## Editorial

In this issue, we can feel the _beta release approaching_.  Desktop
branding is approaching completion, the repositories are reaching
their stable configuration, Devuan takes care of an abandoned Debian
package, and introduces a new package to manage mount points
automatically.  Go Devuan developers, go!

Before we get to the beta, __a new alpha image was released today__ to
fill the gap that has been widening between the current version of
Devuan packages and the existing alpha image.  This should be the last
alpha version before beta.  The gap between the next alpha and beta
will certainly be much shorter: not only we'd rather have a beta soon,
that can already be used in staging environments by professionals,
we're also aiming at releasing it before Debian Wheezy becomes
unsupported.

This issue is mostly the work of @dev1fanboy, who's been regularly
reading and annotating the mailing list topics.  As you may have
noticed, we, Devuan Editors, have not been able to sustain a weekly
issue of Devuan "Weekly" News.  Therefore we decided to move from a
"weekly" schedule to "when it's ready".  We hope you understand that
it's not a lack of commitment, but rather a lack of means.  With more
participants we could certainly produce a more regular newsletter:
this is your news, and you can make it!  Moreover, we don't really
know who's reading, and whether this newsletter fulfills an actual
need. We'd appreciate feedback about how we could better the
newsletter -- what works, what doesn't and what's missing.  Please use
the subject "About Devuan News" on the mailing list to comment on this
topic.  Thank you!

-- @hellekin

## Breaking News

### [NEW Devuan Alpha4 Released][0]

Daniel Reurich released an updated alpha image: `alpha2` was released
7 months ago and a lot of packages were updated since, including many
security updates.  `alpha3` was built but not distributed--because the
main change was the splash image, and not much else.  One of the
recent Linux security updates broke `alpha2`: most of the filesystem
modules were broken with symbol mismatch.  You can
[get the new `alpha4`][0] from `files.devuan.org`.

## Lately in Devuan

### [Progress has been made with desktop-base][1]

Daniel Reurich reports that he has been hacking on the desktop-base
package to add new features and make the package easier to maintain in
the future. He mentions that the Devuan version now has little
resemblance to the original desktop-base package from Debian, and is
asking people to fork the package on gitlab and make merge requests
for any proposed changes.  Progress on this means that the package is
almost complete, bringing us closer to the anticipated beta release.

To repeat and insist on @CenturionDan's call: "__Please fork and make
merge requests with any proposed changes.__"

### [How to use the ip command][2]

Steve Litt tours automatic network configuration in Debian, and points
out an easy way to configure the network that doesn't rely on the
system scripts. He shows how to use the `ip` command with a script he
provided that brings up network interfaces in a simple and distro
agnostic way.

### [Devuan adopts the kbd package][3]

Clarke Sideroad gives a heads-up: Debian no longer supports the kbd
package for console configuration in Debian Sid, which also effects
Devuan Ceres (unstable).  Daniel Reurich is
[preparing the package for unstable][4] so that it may be handed over
to a maintainer.  Once this happens the kbd package will be included
in unstable, offering users the choice to continue using it to
configure the console.

### [Devuan merged and debian multimedia repos will be separated][5]

Recently @golinux asked why the Debian "multimedia" repository is
being included in the Devuan "merged" repo. She's concerned about the
history of issues when using the Debian "multimedia" repo with Debian,
and Simon Wise confirms that
[this could cause some problems on Devuan][6].  Daniel Reurich
explains that [this was mostly done as a test for amprolla][7] and
later [raises an issue about the problem][8].  Once the repositories
are separated Devuan will remained unaffected by any potential related
problems.

## New projects for Devuan

### [Amounter][9]

As mentioned in the previous issue `amounter` is an auto-mounting
program written by Steve Litt in the Python programming language, with
the aims of having minimal dependencies and avoiding complications.
Amounter runs independently of file managers, window managers, and
desktop environments and is suitable for use with the console. The
author [announced its release in late December][10] on the DNG mailing
list. Since `amounter` 

Re: [DNG] About Devuan News

2016-02-01 Thread hellekin
On 02/01/2016 09:24 AM, Noel Torres wrote:
> 
> For familiar reasons I'm not able to continue working in the beautiful
> Devuan News work I started, but I love to know that it continues alive.
> Reading it is my main point of connection with the Devuan community and
> as such I need it to continue.
> 
> Thanks, thanks, thanks
> 

Many thanks to you Noel for having started on AD nulla* :)

* Week Zero After Devuan

==
hk

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Re: [DNG] Semi OT: Mailman, Lurker and referencing messages

2016-02-01 Thread hellekin
On 02/01/2016 10:49 AM, Florian Zieboll wrote:
> 
> Can Mailman predict the URL under which Lurker will archive the message
> it is processing "on the fly", or is there even a variable available? 
> 
> Quoting and referencing "third party" messages would be so much easier,
> if mails contained their own Lurker URL in the signature!
> 

This is an excellent idea.  Mailman developers already thought about it:
http://wiki.list.org/DEV/Stable%20URLs

I guess we can investigate and find out how to generate these from
mailman, and then have a nice URL like:
https://lurker.devuan.org/ to redirect to the relevant lurker
message.  This would also make Devuan Editors' lives easier when working
on the newsletter.

==
hk


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Re: [DNG] Easynetaid is for now netman's new name

2016-02-07 Thread hellekin
On 02/07/2016 01:00 PM, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> 
> If someone suggests a serious name that is better suited than the new
> name, I will consider it.
> 

I'd like to suggest *netbeam*, also callable by `beammeup` or `beam [me]
up [Scotty]`

There's no netbeam package nor any `beam` UNIX command.

==
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Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage

2016-02-11 Thread hellekin
On 02/10/2016 07:20 AM, Didier Kryn wrote:
>>>
 Sorry I missed that, does it handle wifi roaming?
>
> It means you can transport your laptop to whichever place there is a
> wifi ap (which you have entered once in your config) and your laptop
> will automatically connect to the network, without you having to even
> care about it.
> 

Which doesn't seem to be reliable with wicd.  Did anyone else have this
experience?

==
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Re: [DNG] Which Devuan alpha4 for vbox?

2016-02-22 Thread hellekin
On 02/16/2016 06:05 PM, GoOSSBears wrote:
> Wish to run an i386 Devuan alpha4 as a guest OS in VirtualBox's 
> current v5.0.14[1], and under an i386 Linux-distro host.
> The Devuan download zone[2] currently lists the four possibilities 
> for this as 
>
> - devuan-jessie-i386-alpha4.box
> - devuan-jessie-i386-alpha4.qcow2
> - devuan-jessie-i386-alpha4-netboot.iso
> - devuan-jessie-i386-alpha4-netboot-auto.iso
>
> [snip]

- .box is a Vagrant image for VirtualBox.  See:
https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/wikis/try-devuan-on-vagrant
- .qcow2 is for QEmu:  See:
https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/wikis/try-devuan-on-qemu
- You can boot your VirtualBox from any of the ISOs.

==
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Re: [DNG] Devuan Vagrant install OSX

2016-02-23 Thread hellekin
On 02/22/2016 08:14 PM, Wim wrote:
> Hi List,
> 
> 
> I've tried to install Devuan on Vagrant/OSX Mavericks.
>

Hey Wim,

are you talking about the Alpha4 .box file?

If yes, then we need to open some tickets :)
In general you can report issues at
https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/issues

Thank you for testing!

==
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Re: [DNG] Installing different version of Linux

2016-02-25 Thread hellekin
I'm very excited about having a linux-libre package for devuan.

Thank you Aitor

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Re: [DNG] Set up a local copy of Daniel Reurich's branch of my project

2016-02-25 Thread hellekin
On 02/12/2016 04:11 PM, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I would like to set up a local copy of Daniel Reurich's branch of my
> project so that I can help in fixing bugs.
> 

For the record, as I'm sure you already figured this out, you can use
`git remote` in your existing repository.

If you run: `git remote -v` you will see "origin" with URIs for fetch
and push.  All you need to do to add Dan's branch is to add a remote
pointing to his repository, e.g.:

`git remote add net https://git.devuan.org/net/simple-netaid.git`

Then you can get the code and branches from this repo:

`git fetch net`

Finally you can switch to the wanted branch:

`git co -b local-name net/remote-name`

Git will then follow the net/remote-name branch into your local-name
branch (so you can simply `git pull` and `git push` from and to this
remote branch).

> 
> At the end I also need to make sure I can 'git push' my changes to
> Daniel's branch. I have been granted developer access to it.
>

For this to work, you need to use the `SSH` URI for the remote
repository and have developer access to it.  Usually I add a remote with
`HTTPS`, and then update the push URI to use git+ssh:

`git remote set-url --push net g...@git.devuan.org:net/simple-netaid.git`

==
hk

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Re: [DNG] Trying (again) to compile simple-netaid (was netman)

2016-02-25 Thread hellekin
On 02/09/2016 11:56 AM, KatolaZ wrote:
>
> [snip]
> 
> Is there a place where I can find this list of dependencies, so that I
> can put together the INSTALL file for simple-netaid, and then Edward
> or aitor or one of you guys can add it to the repo?
> 

Did Aitor and Edward got that?  Is this dependency on Lazarus still needed?

==
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Re: [DNG] leveldb support proposal

2016-02-27 Thread hellekin
On 02/25/2016 04:01 PM, Ivan J. wrote:
> Hello DnG.
> 
> Is there interest in Devuan supporting multiple versions of leveldb?
>

The case of Bitcoin warrants some attention.  Moreover, applications
derived from Bitcoin may have the same issue.  E.g., Twister compiles
fine with db-5.3, but it may lead to the same kind of security issues
that are supposed to happen if you do so with Bitcoin (honestly I have
no clue...  Anyone?)

==
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Re: [DNG] A heads up about xfce's future

2016-02-27 Thread hellekin
On 02/27/2016 03:28 AM, Simon Wise wrote:
> 
> something as minimal as possible, like above, seems a very good option.
>

I dream of a core Devuan that is modular so that the Desktop Environment
is a *blend* that you layer on top of core.  That way, you can have a
choice of DEs that users can prepare for their own pleasure.

The question of the default DE comes next: Devuan should be shipped with
a default DE.  So far we've been focusing on XFCE, for reasons unknown
to me (normally I use a tiled WM without DE).

I can imagine that Jessie 1.0 Beta will ship with XFCE by default.
I hope Jessie 1.0 will ship with a choice for WM/DE, each implemented as
a blend.  That way the community can maintain a collection of *properly
configured and integrated desktops* for those who want to use that, and
leave the rest of us free to build on the foundation, not just decorate
of a pre-chewed environment.

==
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Re: [DNG] A heads up about xfce's future

2016-02-29 Thread hellekin
On 02/28/2016 07:38 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> 
> I suggest we use this mailing list for communication, and label each  
> post with the word DE in capital letters on the subject line.
> Thus they'll end up arriving as [DNG] DE ...
>

We can do that, or use Mailman topics: so if you put [DE] in your
Subject, you are filtered.  That way people who want can subscribe to a
subset of the list.  The main issue with this process is that it forces
you to include the tag in the Subject every time.

Anyway a month or two from now, Discourse will be ready to surpass
Mailman as a mailing list manager, thanks to a grant the Discourse team
received for that purpose [0].  This is great news for people allergic
to Web forum, as you will be able to do everything without ever opening
a Web browser.

On the Gitlab there's no group yet for Desktop.  If enough people are
interested in configuring, customizing, and finding commonalities
between Desktop Environments that could be interesting.

==
hk

[0]:
https://blog.discourse.org/2015/12/discourse-selected-for-mozilla-open-source-support-program/

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Re: [DNG] Packaging Vdev

2016-03-15 Thread hellekin
On 03/14/2016 08:04 PM, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
>>>
>>> 0.1.20160314+1deb1
>>>
>>> I was purposing something like this:
>>>
>>> 0.1.d5d965-jessie1
>>>
>>> There is not a great difference between both. If you prefer to use
>>> the date instead of the short commit, i will do so.
>>
>> The whole point with version numbers is to be able to compare them to 
>> know which is more up-to-date.  Wouldn't using a hash conflict with 
>> this?
> 

I suggest using version numbers compatible with [SemVer][0].  It doesn't
strike me as incompatible with Debian versioning and brings some
interesting programmatic advantage to manage dependencies upstream.

If upstream is v0.1.0, you could use: 0.1.0-jude[-devuan-version].
`-devuan-version` would be preceded by a hyphen per the Debian
documentation that was provided in this thread.

The package then would show, e.g., 0.1.0-jude-jessie1.

==
hk

[0]: http://semver.org/ "Semantic Versioning"

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Re: [DNG] Where to get beta?

2016-03-19 Thread hellekin
On 03/17/2016 07:56 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
> 
> Where can I download Devuan's beta?
>

In the near future, as Mitt suggested ;o),
from https://devuan.org/ and https://files.devuan.org/.
For now, in Centurion_dan's pocket :)

Tip: for anything related to the Web, please report issues to
https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-www/issues.

> IMHO, right now, today, links should be placed at the very
> top of the current https://devuan.org website
>

Won't gonna happen.  Current devuan.org and future devuan.org are
completely different.  We're working towards beta, and that's happening
soon, so the current site is frozen (actually it's not, but we don't
really have time to ride both horses.)

How to join the mailing-list: isn't a link to
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng enough?

How to join the IRC channels: what else than telling they're on freenode
and linking to them?

How to download latest Devuan installer: for now it's manual, you need
to get it from files.devuan.org.  Once the beta release is out, you will
be able to *seed the torrent* with all images.  Download link(s) will be
available from devuan.org frontpage.

> showing how to join the mailing list, how to join the IRC channel(s),
> and how to download the beta and the latest alpha (4, isn't it?).
> 

- Information on the mailing-list, IRC, etc. will be available (from
/os/contact and /os/community AFAIR).
- Information how to download the beta will be accessible as well from
the front page.
- Information about alpha4 will be deprecated, so no link.

We're still discussing how to handle the files.devuan.org to optimize
our distribution scheme.  Keeping older releases is interesting for
historical research purpose, but quite dangerous for production use.

So in files.devuan.org we're probably provide only the latest version of
a release (meaning, IMO, for JESSIE, 1.0-beta when it's out will replace
and obsolete alpha releases that will only be accessible through
archives, and not supported.)

This is to account for software obsolescence: we don't want to encourage
installation of compromised software if we can encourage the
installation of up-to-date software.

Package archives will work as usual, including obsolete packages.
Simply the front-end will encourage using the up-to-date installers.

Regards,

==
hk

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Re: [DNG] files.devuan.org not working

2016-03-30 Thread hellekin
On 03/30/2016 02:46 PM, parazyd wrote:
> 
> For what it's worth, it is now upped to 30 certs.
> 

Yes, it upped just after--like hours after--the first generation of our
certificates :(

==
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Re: [DNG] ...and when trolling went too far

2016-04-06 Thread hellekin
I'd rather not read that kind of degrading perspective in anything
related to Devuan anymore.

I have enough going on with my life not to be interested in witnessing
people vomiting their hate over one another.

==
hk

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[DNG] TLS / files.do

2016-04-07 Thread hellekin
In case you didn't notice, all servers are now using proper TLS
certificates from Let's Encrypt, except one host: files.devuan.org, that
mysteriously failed to acquire some.  So this one is using a free
certificate from Startcom.

If you encounter any issue with TLS, please report to
https://git.devuan.org/devuan-infrastructure/todo/issues

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Re: [DNG] suspend

2016-04-13 Thread hellekin
On 04/13/2016 12:44 AM, Simon Walter wrote:
> 
> I don't mean that we have to be PC about everything, but
>

"to be PC"?  Err, what?

Can you expand the acronym if that doesn't mean Personal Computer?

==
hk

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Re: [DNG] Slim GUI greeter with devuan theme

2016-04-15 Thread hellekin
On 04/14/2016 10:47 AM, Boruch Baum wrote:
> 
>   https://git.devuan.org/hellekin/slim/issues/1
> 

I moved the issue where it belongs:
https://git.devuan.org/devuan-packages/slim/issues/10

==
hk

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[DNG] Devuan Web A11y

2016-04-18 Thread hellekin
For the Devuan Web we tried to take accessibility into account. If you
have a11y issues with https://beta.devuan.org, please report to

https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-www/issues?label_name=A11y

If you have impaired vision, please consider:
https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-www/issues/46

==
hk

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