Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News IV
Noel contacted me for the upcoming issue. I guess we could have a talk about it on #devuan-news on freenode's IRC if you like. I don't know yet his plans but I'm eager to give a hand. == hk ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News VII
On 01/13/2015 09:28 AM, Dragan FOSS wrote: >> *** Jessie without systemd >> >> https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150108.222844.f83bac6d.en.html >> >> The TRIOS team introduces their semi-rolling Debian Jessie based >> OS that aims to work without Systemd. It still uses udev at this >> point. It looks very similar to Devuan, using OpenRC as the > > Maybe i am wrong, but It seems that funny things happen here at devuan weekly > news...something that exists right now, > "looks very similar" to something that even not exist yet :) > *** It was not intended for publication but was a reading note. The process of team publication is not yet ready: it actually needs team work. What was meant is that the projects are similar in their intentions. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Use/misuse of depends
On 01/13/2015 02:23 PM, Joel Roth wrote: > > Also, I recall that in a default Debian install, recommended > packages are pulled in by default. A setting change makes it > possible to only pull in the package dependencies. > *** Are you suggesting that Devuan should use that setting and not pull in Recommends automatically? cat > /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/70befrugal <
Re: [Dng] Use/misuse of depends
On 01/14/2015 07:52 AM, KatolaZ wrote: > > in some of the cases a Recommend is simply unnecessary (like exim4 > recommended by mutt) > *** This sounds like a misuse. It should be Suggests. I get the logic of "recommending" an SMTP server for a mail client, but there are many different implementations and many different use cases of a mail client including some that do not require an SMTP server. I guess Mutt should "suggest" an SMTP server, not a specific one anyway. So we're talking about two different setups: one wants to keep the bloat away ; the other wants to pull in as much functionality as it can to ensure no missing feature will surprise the user. I would certainly favor the former, conservative approach, and leverage Blends to make meta-packages that pull in Recommends. That way, a Devuan install would always remain minimalist, but then it would make it easier to create workhorse Blends. I think this will be useful when people wants to make specific distributions for mobile phones or some proprietary hardware. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What's new in Systemd
On 02/02/2015 12:37 PM, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: > On Mon, 02 Feb 2015 10:22:45 -0500 > Miles Fidelman wrote: > >>> Only remains to prove the talibans of systemd that resistance is not >>> futile... > >> Is not ISIL a better analogy? > > Grovelling apologies, but I have difficulties distinguishing shades in that > region of the spectrum... > > Cheers, > > Ron. > Let me help you. After all, I'm a free software talib. (see my twitter) Talib: singular, a student. Taliban: plural, more than one talib. Using Talib or Taliban as a derogatory term is Newspeak straight from the War Propaganda 101 operative manual. Instead of considering a human, you consider an enemy. The enemy is the devil. The enemy has a face, but not necessarily a name (that would make it too close to you.) Our daily rhetoric is full of such very bad shit about a lot of things and people. While people hate, they nurture bad vibes and dopamine-based (lack of) sociability. Violence engenders more violence, distinctions more dissociation, and separation more contradictions, that in turn trigger reactions, and reactionary visions circling the vicious circle. Beware of bad associations, and remember that you're responsible for how you treat your brains. As the great Sufi talib and poet master Rumi said: * We are as the flute, and the music in us is from thee; we are as the mountain and the echo in us is from thee. We are as pieces of chess engaged in victory and defeat: our victory and defeat is from thee, O thou whose qualities are comely! Who are we, O Thou soul of our souls, that we should remain in being beside thee? We and our existences are really non-existence; thou art the absolute Being which manifests the perishable. We all are lions, but lions on a banner: because of the wind they are rushing onward from moment to moment. Their onward rush is visible, and the wind is unseen: may that which is unseen not fail from us! Our wind whereby we are moved and our being are of thy gift; our whole existence is from thy bringing into being. * == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] [OT] ISIL (was Re: What's new in Systemd)
On 02/04/2015 03:03 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote: > Is not ISIL a better analogy? > > But not the analogy I was driving at. The Taliban is a movement that > started focused on Afghanistan - a revolutionary movement. ISIL's > mission is to (re)establish an Islamic Caliphate over a broad swatch of > territory (kind of like the Borg). The later seems a lot more like what > is happening with systemd. > > Miles Fidelman > > The "Islamic Caliphate" and the general media attention of ISIL seem to me to respond to an ideological warfare painted in Samuel Huntington's 1996 opus "The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order". Honestly, considering "The West" and "Islam(ism)" as monolithic entities fighting each other is a bit like confusing porn with eroticism, or McDonald's with food -- or war with peace. This heavy tendency of "Western" ideologists and mass media to draw subtle portraits with chainsaws and bulldozers is not at all helpful neither in understanding the phenomenon of the rise of ISIL in the Middle-East nor to understand the various forms of Islam, nor to understand each other as human beings, and of course it does not help bringing a sane view of complexity. I like Poettering's own choice of the Borg, because it illustrates the contradiction and paradox of his real-fictional action. Systemd is doing to the free software world what Microsoft was doing in its time to the computer world: it pushes the incentives of "progress", in the sense of fugue, to wrap a monolithic construct (Linux) with a monolithic shell (systemd) that will do it all and better than anyone else just because, please don't ask, you should know. Yes, the Borg. An invasive, unavoidable plague that will make its way like a caries down to the core of an aching tooth. I've seen the presentation with all the Borg illustrations, and frankly, I thought on some slides: how is that an advantage? Certainly Mr. Poettering is in love with his own mind and logic, but I would certainly not appreciate his poetry. The concept of "Pensée Unique", the "unique train of thought" that is delivered year after year by the all powerful "too big to fail" Western ideology has brought its heavy muddy boots into the free software world. That most of distributions adopted systemd however remains less a sign of quality and engineering prowess than a mix of developer laziness, good marketing, and general short-sightedness -- remember SSL is still around, and there's nothing worse than a bad idea whose time has come. That said, I wish the Devuan community-in-the-making would bring to a halt the criticism of Systemd and especially when it comes to demonizing it and making hardly appropriate comparisons, and start focusing on how we can make the best *universal* free software operating system that is not stuck in monomania, in bureaucracy, nor in the 1990s (although it should definitely be working on HDDs as well). Regards, == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Community polls on Devuan design
On 02/08/2015 07:55 AM, Jaromil wrote: > > We had many logo submissions as one can see here > http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Category:Logo > *** Without-Systemd.org is behind an anti-Tor Cloudflare wall. Please disable it! > And even one complete design study by Alban Crommel > http://albancrommer.github.io/devuan/ well inspired by discussions on > this list, still leaving the logo option open. > *** I hate to say it but I judge the quality of a web design with lynx -dump and the "View > Without style" option of Firefox. Appearance is not to be confused with design. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Community polls on Devuan design
On 02/08/2015 03:19 PM, Dima Krasner wrote: > My vote goes to the last logo from > http://albancrommer.github.io/devuan/Logo_2ndpass.pdf (D with a spiral). The > typography is great. > *** I like the idea of the spiral inside the D as well. It's vastly superior to every other proposal IMO. What font is it? I'd like to see more versions (and SVG files) of this idea. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Towards systemd-free packages
On 02/09/2015 10:10 PM, Jude Nelson wrote: > > Unrelated, I opened in issue on the SDK. It seems that I'm prompted for a > password for "g...@git.devuan.org" when I run the "init" script. I don't > know what to put here. > *** You should [setup an SSH key on the gitlab][0] (let's call it ~/.ssh/id_rsa_devuan) and throw this at your SSH configuration: cat
Re: [Dng] Guidelines?
On 02/11/2015 05:12 PM, mitt_gr...@yahoo.com wrote: > > Hi guys, > > Sorry if it was asked before, I'm relatively new to here. > > What's yer take on following Debian's way in dealing with trademarks and non > free stuff? > *** Hi Mitt, nobody should expect anything from Devuan beyond what has been said: the primary objective is to deliver Jessie without systemd. Once this is done, the community will grow, and will probably keep close to Debian in the general lines: the Debian fork was announced as continuity with Debian. AFAIK the VUA have been focusing on three things so far: - providing a solid infrastructure to handle the transition - removing systemd dependencies on the default install - automating package maintenance and de-poettering to allow painless integration from Debian and upstream. Note that dealing with organizational issues, future releases, and current trolls all have been postponed. I like this pragmatic approach to solving real issues as they come and insist for being solved. Now, as another recurring issue that Debian has been accused of is the bureaucracy and the poor relationship with upstream, Devuan is a good place to challenge this and start fresh from that point of view. If you have strong opinions about any issue where you would like to see change, you'd better get ready to work on it and help build solid alternatives. I'd like to share Howard Rheingold's motto at this point: What it is--->is->up to us. Cheers, == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Community polls on Devuan design
On 02/12/2015 07:39 AM, Jaromil wrote: > > hi all > > the last community curated DWN expresses enthusiasm for a logo design > which wasn't included in the poll (because absent from the wiki), > *** I want to clear a misunderstanding. I wrote this article in DWN, entirely on my own, and I requested it from Noel to be able to introduce the #devuan-www team. I'm very sorry that it created such confusion and led Atari314 to his decision of leaving the project, and I hope he reconsiders. The concern Atari314 and Jaromil expressed was about democracy and listening to the community, and especially for Atari314, that point was even more important than the logo itself. Atari314 and I had a couple of conversations last night and this morning, where I assured him two things: if bureaucracy kicks in in Devuan, I'll be first to kick its ass, and he responded that I would be second, after him. I assume he will be back otherwise he cannot comply. I want to explain why I think the poll is a wrong idea, and why I think this has nothing to do with democracy. I'm asking you to bear with the emerging design team, at least until after Devuan Jessie Alpha is released, which will be sooner than later. If after that the community still thinks I was wrong to take this path, I'll resign without a fuss (the second point in my conversation with Atari314). While nextime has been working almost on his own, without any public appearance, nobody has been saying anything about how he should do it. It's not democratic, but so far, everybody expects that he's doing the right thing. While jaromil has been designing his toy SDK, hacking away night and day while trying to keep the community's voice and softness and inclusiveness, nobody came to knock at his door telling him how to do it. Everybody is waiting patiently to see what's cooking. Nobody enters the kitchen to bother the cook, yet everybody enjoys the meal. Yet, when it comes to design, everybody has a strong opinion about how things work and how they should look like. Don't worry, I'm one of you. I proposed an esoterically-complex logo, and kickstarted the Category:Logo on the without-systemd wiki. But I didn't except that anyone would call for a vote: design by committee is a horrible path to take. As soon as I saw the poll proposal, I denounced it, and naturally got closer to the people who were thinking alike. Yet, I didn't propose *my* logo as the direction to take. Neither did I *choose* a logo *implementation* among logos implementations. What I did is gather a couple of people, discuss ideas with them, we all agreed on a path and *a direction for the logo*, which incidentally seems to be reflected in the current results of the poll: - it should remind of Debian, for continuity - it should use a swirl-D, because d is a natural swirl Both the "Negative Galaxy" logo proposal, Atari314's "spiral-d" logo proposal, the two most-voted logo proposals so far, and Alban's proposal all share the same characteristics. So there's no drama about where we're going: I should not have written "it darn looks like the Devuan logo" about Alban's, but the above. I expected "looks like" to be sufficiently vague as to convey that we're *working on designing a logo from an idea of a swirl-d*, not choosing from any proposed implementation. This is exactly why I thought *the poll was a bad idea*: it favors a canonical situation of [bikeshedding][0] that seriously gets in the way of productivity. So really, there's no reason to dramatize the situation, we're just a young project with a strong legacy, and we're trying to find our marks. There's *nothing about democracy here*: don't tell me a dozen logo designs and a hundred votes are any representative of the Devuan community, if you consider that the first alpha release is yet to be done! *Please bear with us.* You're welcome to join #devuan-www, but not for bikeshedding there. We're on a solid track and we intend, as a team, to pursue it at least until we deliver our first product. After that, you may judge us what we've done, not for what you think we're doing wrong. If we fail, it will certainly be time to take another direction. We're listening, and we're of course part of this community. == hk [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_law_of_triviality -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] About separate mailing lists
On 02/12/2015 06:35 AM, Jaromil wrote: > > However we have started setting up a listserver with some volunteers and > soon or later decisions will be made. > > Perhaps the first list to be born should one to discuss on how to > structure the communication architecture? > *** I think we have it already: here :) My take on this is very simple: if we don't need it, we don't do it. When we need it, we try not to do it, for organic alternate solutions to emerge, or for the bubble to break and the problem to fade away. If the problem sticks around, then we have a real problem to tackle. Until then, it's just wasting time. Sooner or later, we end up dead, better not create problems that don't exist, we already have our plates full IMHO. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] recommendation for consideration: keep as close to debian as possible
On 02/14/2015 10:16 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 8:12 AM, KatolaZ wrote: >> On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 04:01:58PM +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > >>> is it the intent of the devuan team to: >>> >>> (a) create a "fork" which will always, at all times, without fail, >>> require that a debian repo be placed in /etc/apt/sources.list >>> >>> or >>> >>> (b) create a "fork" of the *entire debian package repository*, such >>> that it will end up over time to be as completely incompatible with >>> debian as ubuntu is today. > *** From https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/wikis/ProjectDescription "Devuan is born for a simple goal: having a systemd-free debian jessie to preserve freedom choice on init and decoupling between init and the rest of the system ... initially, it will NOT be a complete fork, but just a complete infrastructure to distribute a personalized version of debian jessie, testing and unstable where some packages from us will be pinned up on top of the debian repositories..." For the future, nobody can tell, but obviously there's an orientation towards minimalism and continuity. > >> a functioning and fuss-free GNU/Linux, which I can tinker with as like > *** Word, KatolaZ, word. :) == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] recommendation for consideration: keep as close to debian as possible
On 02/14/2015 09:08 PM, KatolaZ wrote: >>> a functioning and fuss-free GNU/Linux, which I can tinker with as like >>> >> *** Word, KatolaZ, word. :) >> > > I am sorry I am trashing your mailboxes with tons of words :( I would > rather like to help you guys doing the hard work... > *** Aha! To clarify: after reading you I made a proposal for a desktop background that says: "A no-fuss GNU/Linux I can tinker with." :) https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-art/blob/devuan-alpha/graphics/backgrounds/alpha/no-fuss-1920x1200.png == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] recommendation for consideration: keep as close to debian as possible
On 02/14/2015 06:59 PM, Luke Leighton wrote: > > hellekin: can you see the difference between that and what's on the > wiki (and on the web site)? > *** Surely I do, and I thank you very much for your version. Please understand that the wiki page that I linked to was written once 2 months ago by native Italian speakers, and I only made minimal revision to remove typos and fix the grammar. Also, the "web team" didn't exist two weeks ago, so things are in the making. Of course the alpha site will be much different from what it is now. Jaromil has been updating links as they come, but he cannot redesign the site and deliver the code. Patience and the kind of contributions you just made are the best help the Devuan Editors can get at this point. FYI I opened an issue with your message for this page: https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/issues/9 (I'm replying to your arguments in another response.) == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] recommendation for consideration: keep as close to debian as possible
On 02/14/2015 06:59 PM, Luke Leighton wrote: > > what i wrote makes the following things very clear: > > 1) your debian system will not be screwed up or compromised by using > devuan. you will also not lose any functionality or packages. > *** I guess that really depends on the case: as mentioned earlier in this list, if you're using Gnome the transition may be more difficult. Regarding functionality, I can foresee, given the number of packages that didn't make into Debian Jessie from Wheezy, it might actually be better in Devuan than in Debian. In any case, I expect the Devuan community will provide thorough testing, debugging, and support for edge cases that may appear from replacing packages whose dependency chain heavily relies on systemd. > 2) we understand the difficulty of maintaining an entire distro. > we implicitly understand that we will not get to 1,000 maintainers > in the immediate future, so we are being realistic and will not > be doing a complete fork. it's too much effort for us, and we > recognise that you probably wouldn't trust us (i.e. wouldn't > even want to *try* upgrading to devuan) if we created one. > *** The original version seems more appropriate to me: it does not justify being a small team to begin with, but sets clear and reasonable goals and baby steps that demonstrate the sanity of the approach rather than asking for trust. > 3) we're restricting the scope of what we're doing to a few key > strategic packages, and we're going to make it easy for you to > remove systemd. that's our core focus. > *** Again, that's part of how the VUA implement their strategy. They say it clearly enough, and that's for the *initial phase*. The version you wrote, that I reported as Issue #8, wants to tell a different story than what has been told so far. The project description clearly states that: + *removing mandatory dependencies on systemd* is the primary goal + in order to reach that goal *Devuan will pin some packages on top of Debian repositories* + once that goal is reached, and users have a choice, then Devuan will consider other changes. At which point, I would say that it depends on Debian whether Devuan remains compatible or not. Devuan will have made it possible for Debian to revert the decision of using systemd as the default init system. It is unlikely to happen, for a variety of reasons. In any case, Devuan will have to continue to exist because having systemd as default init in Debian Jessie *will* influence how developers consider what they can do: those with a consciousness and a vetted interest in supporting universality (including legacy or non-mainstream hardware) will go for Devuan, while others will happily write systemd-dependent code. There's a remote possibility that systemd will become universal and stable, or that it will run with a higher PID. Until then, it seems to me that Devuan will remain the closest available free software distribution to Debian Wheezy. >From what I've read so far, I can feel a strong consensus towards independence. That doesn't mean incompatibility. It would have been so much easier if Debian had decided to implement the systemd init as a Debian Blend. But we're far beyond that situation: this is a fork. > > with a small (busy) team, you are stuck in the middle between a rock > and a hard place. > *** You can move a small team away from that situation with no casualties. A bigger team will undoubtedly leave some behind. See Debian. > on one hand you need to keep the alternative packages fully up-to-date: > even *one day* late means that people will have a system which becomes > unuseable due to version-bumps from debian. > *** With apt-pinning, you can delay such upgrades. If a package becomes broken due to a systemd dependency, it will be added to the Devuan package repository for fixing. Once there, it will live happily. Surely the transition may be hairy for some packages, but there's no reason why it should happen a lot. If it does, it's a sign that Debian is poetterizing, so it will be a good long term indicator of whether Devuan and Debian will remain compatible. That said, the current setup of `devuan-sdk` takes into account the possibility that Debian upstream may become unusable, and allows bypassing Debian to package directly from upstream. This defensive mechanism will allow for example to revert to sanity where Debian maintainers introduce dependencies on systemd where upstream does not, or to include packages from Debian Wheezy that missed Debian Jessie. > and on the other hand you have to consider doing a complete total fork > of debian, with all that that implies > *** You're right. As the VUA said: "We are aware of how huge effort, time and blood is needed to maintain a so huge distro like debian is, so, initially, it will NOT be a complete fork". The more successful the first phase, the more reachable the scope of a complete fork. Keeping the hea
Re: [Dng] Towards systemd-free packages
Volunteers for package adoption can now head to the [devuan-maintainers][0] project. The [wiki][1] gives instructions to follow for adopting a package from the current [list of base packages][2] that jaromil posted earlier. If you need anything, try #devuan first. == hk [0]: https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-maintainers#tab-readme [1]: https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-maintainers/wikis/home [2]: https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/issues/6#note_78 -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] systemd free badge
On 02/21/15 06:08, Jaromil wrote: > > how about designing a badge that all distros that are systemd free can show? > *** I think some kind of cross-distros work is good. Code sharing will be facilitated with good inter-distros communication. On the one hand, I understand the urge to polarize against systemd: it can be used to denounce its bad aspects and strengthen the identity of the project. On the other hand, giving more attention to systemd than it deserves may cause a disservice to the community. Debian existed before systemd was even thought of, and so Devuan should rather build on this legacy rather than reducing itself to a reactionary stance. Both edges are sharp: the former focuses on the momentum, and the latter focuses more on the long term. I've read both "systemd is here to stay" and "systemd is a fad". Watching empty hands... == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges
On 02/21/15 09:14, David Harrison wrote: > > What about an Init Freedom Group? Freedom sounds more postitive to me > than 'free of', though it's seen some iffy use in recent years. > > This kind of thing work at two levels. 'Member/Supporter of', meaning > it's a goal or a sponsorship target, or you're sympathetic. And > 'certificate', meaning the distro confirms there are no nasties lurking > in the init woodshed. > > It would work for packages too, for example any DE that steers clear of > hard systemd dependencies, or succeeds at rehab... > > This makes the badge a source of pride rather than a retrograde step. > *** 100% agreed. https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-art/blob/devuan-alpha/graphics/init-freedom/if.png (my display tricked me into believing the 'f' was shorter, but the somehow the result is interesting: the bodies are centered parallel segments ;o) == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] systemd free badge
On 02/21/15 13:35, Go Linux wrote: > > Modularity-preserved Linux > Linux your way > Lockin-freed Linux > *** Hmmm... It's about *init*, not the kernel :o) == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges
On 02/21/15 13:40, Go Linux wrote: > > Urm . . . it's about more than just init and that needs to be conveyed in the > badge. > *** It says "if" :) https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-art/blob/devuan-alpha/graphics/init-freedom/if.png -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Kicking the tires on Valentine release
On 02/26/15 00:01, John Morris wrote: > > A generic devuan user is present, no idea of the > password so I set one for both it and root. > *** I brute-forced it: my first attempt was 'devuan' and worked ;o) I'm impressed by all the testing you did. You may want to open some issues in the gitlab. That would make a good test suite for the next ISO. https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/issues (there's a "Datalove Pre-Release" milestone) == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Logo survey
On 02/26/15 10:24, Linuxito wrote: > The survey was configured to allow only one vote for IP address. > *** Which allows me, a Tor user, to reload the page and vote again. When will people realize that IP address != person? What about people sharing a proxy? "Sorry, you already voted!" "N!" Anyway, jaromil, please don't waste a cent to allow a larger survey. This is pointless and would do more harm than good to waste supporters money on bikeshedding. None of the proposed logos will be used for reasons explained earlier: they are mostly rough ideas, directions. And we probably won't use any before 1.0, as in: subject to change. If some proposal gets consensus, we'll see. Martijn seems to have a solution for polls, let's do that instead. FWIW. The logo threads are multiplying: it shows the impatience is growing. What I'd like to see instead is a focus on a real issue we have, which is shipping desktop background designs. This is not a unique item, so people can have the distro shipped with the background they'd like to use. Isn't that more interesting? == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges
On 02/27/15 16:21, Ста Деюс wrote: > > Awesome! As it is the planet-wide project, why make it necessary to > translate even logo into languages? - Let it be just graphical stuff. > *** Why is everybody looking for the One Ring to Rule Them All? Can't we have unity through diversity? Are we all subject of Mordor's torpor and subjugation? I'd like to see logos I can't read: in Cyrillic, in Mandarin, in Arabic, ... If "if" makes a great logo for English-speaking people, what makes a great logo for Indians? Embrace cultural differences for freedom sake! == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News XI
On 02/27/15 16:16, Ста Деюс wrote: > > It is swear to me, and can/ be for others. > *** *I* used "kickass" in the common slang meaning of "very good or impressive", or "very effective". As a non-native English speaker as well, it didn't occur to me that it was impolite to do so, and apparently the people who worked on this issue were not shocked either. As was mentioned before, anyone is welcome to participate in the editing process of the DWN, so I recommend that you join us on Monday so that such offense does not happen again. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Doc Devuan
https://git.devuan.org/devuan-doc group is looking for participants, especially Debianites working with the Debian Documentation Project. So far the existing Debian Manuals repository was imported from the SVN, and available at https://git.devuan.org/devuan-doc/debian-manuals https://git.devuan.org/devuan-doc/devuan-reference includes the original Debian Quick Reference in the debian-reference branch, and the master is mostly a placeholder for now. I suppose it would be doable to activate Asciidoc support in the Gitlab wiki to be able to minimize the changes in documentation from Debian to Devuan. Plans include using devuan.org/doc like debian.org/doc for general devuan reference. It will obviously take some time before Devuan has its own documentation independent from Debian's. In the meantime, we're using the devuan-doc/manuals wiki at https://git.devuan.org/devuan-doc/manuals/wikis/help. Steve Litt inaugurated it with https://git.devuan.org/devuan-doc/manuals/wikis/how-to-use-dmenu-in-devuan \o/ Cheers, == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Devuan Weekly News XIV - Where no toy has gone before
# Devuan Weekly News Issue XIV __Volume 002, Week 9, Devuan Week 14__ Released 03/03/12015 [HE](why-he) https://git.devuan.org/Envite/devuan-weekly-news/wikis/past-issues/volume-02/issue-014 ## Editorial It's hard to believe it's winter when you have to mop the sweat out of your keyboard, but the intensity of this week's conversations, and @golinux's [penguins][0] made thinking about cold easier. Cold reigns in deep space as well and Devuan users will appreciate the identity moving away from toyland: although Debian Jessie refers to an adventurous toy cowgirl with an attitude, Devuan's Jessie refers to a place no toy has ever gone before. Exit the naughty `Sid` brat, welcome `Ceres`, largest object in the asteroid belt, and the first minor planet discovered in the 19th Century. That's right, [Devuan release codenames][1] will be named after minor planets of our solar system. As far as visual identity goes, and although the logo still consumes a significant bit of attention, it won't be revealed before the code: part of the distro's publishing policy is to deliver working code before a shiny image. Welcome to Issue XIV of the DWN, cooked _al dente_ by your interim editor, @hellekin, with the invaluable help of @golinux and @joerg_rw. ## Last Week in Devuan ### [Debian Problems with Jessie][2] T.J.Duchene advises not to bring "Debian mud" to the list: "Devuan does not need to justify its own existence." Here comes the largest thread this week: a swashbuckling introspective and speculative bubble visiting what's wrong with collective creation of software. (It all started with _Simple Backgrounds_, go figure.) ### [Three Important UI Features][3] Last week Jonathan Wilkes introduced the idea of improving the features for the default devuan desktop. Wolfgang Pirker proposes two solutions for the "find apps as you type" #2 feature. Feature #3 "menu on the Super key" can be addressed with `dmenu`. A consensual voice raises in favor of Xfce as the default desktop environment (DE), which comes with its own implementation equivalent to what dmenu provides. In passing, for your hacker jeopardy, here's a funky compiler flag in `Enlightenment` that will probably break the layout of many screen applications displaying this: `--enable-i-really-know-what-i-am-doing-and-that-this-will-probably-break-things-and-i-will-fix-them-myself-and-send-patches-aba`. ### [Xfce Desktop Environment in Devuan][4] As `Xfce 4.12` was released this week on the 28th of February, it was also chosen to become the default DE in Devuan, which makes it the first _non-systemd_ difference between cowgirl Jessie and planet Jessie. David Harrison talked with the Xfce team, and @jaromil confirms existing coordination and good terms between Devuan and Xfce. ### [Logind Alternative][5] Oz Tiram introduces the `ConsoleKit2` fork that does not depend on `systemd-logind`. Svante Signell offers to package it for Devuan. Dima Krasner reminds that "ConsoleKit2 was already packaged by Max, but we don't need it in the Jessie cycle because the logind dependency was dropped from all packages." ### [Simple Backgrounds][6] Hendrik Boom is concerned not to delay the first release for designing the project's visual identity (and he's right). As @jaromil puts it: "Devuan is sugar-free and doesn't makes your computer fat :^)" See the editorial. ### More of Devuan Logo Discussions abound regarding the potential Devuan logo. Linuxito announces a [graphical version of the survey][7], warning that it's informative, and Anto notes that a logo without matching text "would look strange". In [another thread][8], Hendrik Boom suggests using the Milky Way as the basis for the logo (that was before the release code names were announced, but it was in the air). Tzu-Pei Chen shows that a single-arm spiral galaxy exists, which Hendrik qualifies as "debian galaxy", leaving the interpretation of the comment's depth to the astute reader. Neo Futur engages in the [philosophy of KISS][9]. ### The Valentine <3 Pre-Release Support More people come with feedback over the Valentine Pre-Release ISO. Please [report any issue][10] with this release so the team can ensure these are gone in the next batch. John Morris reports [quite a few issues][11], some of them coming from Debian Installer itself. His verdict: "most problems were fixable and process 1 is init so Winning!" Hendrik Boom plans [to install Valentine pre-alpha on real hardware][12]. So far he got the hardware to boot from USB using the `isohybrid` method as `dd` would not work, but got stuck with manual partitioning: the disk seems not to offer a safe option to [preserve existing partitions][13]. He also mentions a long-standing but minor bug in debootstrap that prevents Debian from offering multiple inits. Svan
Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges
On 03/03/15 18:38, Isaac Dunham wrote: > > If I understand correctly, the point of the allusion is that the quest > for *one and only one* solution is not desireable. > *** Indeed, Isaac, that was my point. It's not just for the IF badges though, but a general principle: we tend to forget about diversity, especially as globalization has been soaring and the "Western" monoculture has been taken as the unique valid point of view, the "best of the best", etc. Unity, yes, through diversity! == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News XIV - Where no toy has gone before
On 03/04/15 05:07, Gravis wrote: > > no way, the first has to be dedicated to Lennart! just think > *** Someone already coined a term to remove dependencies on his code: depoetterizing. This is not a cult to Lennart P. Just think again. Lenny is a past release, but Devuan is not looking back. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
On 03/02/15 23:23, Gravis wrote: > consider grouping your emails as "conversations" as it is a wonderful > option for organizing mailing list threads. > *** Thanks for this, but the topic having drifted a lot: the thread should also have been renamed. If any of you would like to contribute a summary, you're welcome to chime in to #devuan-news. Otherwise I doubt that anyone wants to cover it in the next issue of DWN because it's way off-topic and a lot of reading. Maybe that could be a way to reset the thread into something workable. I doubt people coming to the mailing list at this point will understand anything about "simple backgrounds" or "Debian problems with Jesse" (sic). [OT] is the last bit of information in the Subject. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Logo survey
On 03/04/15 17:13, x...@openmailbox.org wrote: > > I'm not a professional artist, but > *** You're quite talented :) The monkey looks a bit aggressive, I don't think it needs to be. If you have more sketches, I'd love to see them. Cheers, == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] release names
On 03/04/15 23:23, Gravis wrote: >> So, basically we will be using mithology for names. > *** Although Homer was verbose on names, I doubt he ever reached 670,000. Once the astronomers depleted the stock of gods, semi-gods, muses, spirits, heroes and so forth, they ventured into baptizing space objects after actual people's names. One day everyone will have their own star. That is, if the Mormons keep feeding their database, NSA keeps recording every digital fart ever made by humans, and we don't blow ourselves out into oblivion. When you think of it, long after the Internet is shutdown, future archeologists will rely on the gossip and mass-mediocrity of our times to figure out the civilization that made space travel possible; reconstructed issues from hundreds of salvaged copies of People magazine will still haunt the dreams of scientists trying to solve the mystery of our global failure. These people... were killing evolved carbon-oxygen converters to print blurry pictures of the underwear of insignificant members of their species. They were breeding heroes on glossy paper and cocaine, defining the future waving oil-based plastic flags in unison as their elected gods passing by in armored vehicles at a safe distance, showing their made-up smirking faces on giant displays, were deciding their fate inventing problems that did not exist before. How they could reach beyond their home planet's atmosphere remains a speculative and highly controversial research field. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Plan for Devuan to use Mozilla products as is
On 03/04/15 21:29, william moss wrote: > > Opera for the browser. > *** Last time I checked, Opera was proprietary software. Did you see how I edited the email? == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [bikeshedding] release names
This thread is not about changing the release names. Read the first message. Do you have time on you hands? Please help review this week's postings for the next weekly news. There's also a TODO list on the gitlab. Seriously... https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/wikis/devuan-codenames == hk ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Hardened Devuan (was Re: Plan for Devuan to use Mozilla products as is)
On 03/06/15 05:06, Neo Futur wrote: >> the Grsecurity/Pax hardening of the kernel, will you think of it, >> instead of SELinux, or as an option besides SELinux? It sure will be >> attainable in the way I got it in Debian in that Tip, but official >> support would be so great! > > https://git.devuan.org/groups/hardened > > we are a few guys planning to try and maintain a grsec kernel for > devuan, for now we are waiting for a bevuan beta version before > starting working on it. > anyone interested, feel free to join ! > *** I'm so happy to see this group. I've been using this kernel lately, running on Parabola: 3.14.34-gnu-201502271838-1-lts-grsec-knock GRSecurity, and Knock support. Knock is a kernel patch that enables single packet port knocking [0], thwarting common scanning attacks. I would love to see this running on Devuan. Parabola GNU/Linux was the first distro to deploy it, and I've been using it happily with SSH. == hk [0]: https://gnunet.org/kirsch2014knock -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Alpha i386 - developers release series on Vagrant
On 03/06/15 22:11, Jaromil wrote: > > vagrant init jaromil/devuan-alpha-i386 > *** Nice. Can you add libvirt and/or lxc providers? https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/wikis/try-devuan-on-vagrant == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [bikeshedding] release names
Maybe it's just me but I don't understand what you're contemplating. Why do you think Devuan should use a more complicated set of suites than Debian? Ceres is aliased to `sid`, so it's not testing, but unstable. The way Debian handles testing, code freezes, etc. is not 1:1 with Devuan (or so I hope), so jessie+1 in both distributions will certainly be different (more than Jessie). My guess is that the automation jaromil and nextime are setting up now will ease the integration of upstream packages, in a way that will make Devuan a faster moving target than Debian. It's not necessary to rush things and make anything more complicated: Debian's release cycle has been delivering stability and we should probably keep most of it. If Devuan release cycle differs, it's on the pace it integrates new packages in Ceres, not how these packages enter testing, IMO. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Alpha i386 - developers release series on Vagrant
On 03/07/15 05:59, JeremyBekka C wrote: > > how can I get Vagrant to run in Gentoo? > *** As mentioned at [0], the way to go is to install it using Rubygems. https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/wikis/try-devuan-on-vagrant == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Hardened Devuan
On 03/06/15 20:27, Adam Borowski wrote: > > It looks like Knock breaks everything TCP SQN is used for. > *** You obviously didn't read the paper and are happily FUDing like it's Pearl Harbor. Knock only changes the Initial Sequence Number of the TCP packet, overriding the default MD5 hash used in the stock kernel to use something meaningful to both the client and the server. It doesn't change anything about how TCP works. I'm looking forward to see this patch packaged. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] release names
On 03/07/15 14:21, william moss wrote: > >> Cool yes, but useful? Numbers have the huge advantage that everybody knows >> their order, which is quite important when referring to versions. > *** Release *NAMES* never replaced version numbers. Hence Debian 8 "Jessie" and Devuan 1.0 "Jessie". == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] greets
On 03/09/15 19:26, Christopher Barry wrote: > > these democratic ideas. Unfortunately, just like in real government, > special interests can stack the deck (e.g. dominate committees) and > push things that are self serving and maybe not in the best interests > of the greater community. > *** Welcome Christopher! I agree with you that Devuan governance needs to differ from Debian's, and that is must consider the general interest as well as respect the particular. Given the amount of speculation around what Devuan is and how it will evolve, I'd rather give it a chance to actually get there before we can start a discussion from a solid ground, rather than get to speak about the shadow of aliens, and how your vision is necessarily inferior to mine, because mine was raised by true Trolls that turn into stone when they meditate, etc. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] greets
On 03/10/15 11:57, Steve Litt wrote: > > LOL > *** Can you expand the acronym? I'm not sure I find anything funny here. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Systemd: it depends -- was Re: release date
On 03/17/15 18:57, Anto wrote: > > I asked the questions whether Devuan will be really free from systemd > and its components? Or will there be trade-off being applied so that > some of systemd components will be used in Devuan? > *** I'm merely repeating what's been said before, and I'm not ointed by the VUA, so don't take my word for theirs... The goal of Devuan is to produce a distro in the continuity with Debian Wheezy, based on Jessie, but without any of the systemd cruft being mandatory. The first step is to enable Jessie to run without systemd. Devuan provides free init, letting the user choose which init system they want to use. Obviously, because the primary job is to remove the mandatory dependency on systemd, if you choose to run systemd, you'd better stick with Debian. Now if you want to run standard GNU utilities to do what systemd wants to replace beyond init, you're in the right place. There are a couple of systemd components whose dependency is harder to remove, such as logind and udevd, especially for the GNOME desktop that highly integrates with systemd. Work is currently being done to replace them or at least provide a systemd shim that would allow developers to keep working on a compatible layer without the need for any systemd components. Once Jessie is done, running without systemd, then the systemd-compatibility will mostly depend on the evolution of Debian, because I can't imagine the Devuan developers spending much of their time accommodating systemd developers' poor choices. But I also expect that by that time (ASCII or ASCII+1), systemd will have become irrelevant to most of us. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] greetings & how to help
On 03/18/15 10:56, Udo Rader wrote: > Haven't tried it for myself, but the Wiki says there are native qemu > images as well: > > https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/wikis/try-devuan-on-qemu > *** This was the first pre-alpha release and to my knowledge has not been updated since. The Vagrant image is almost up-to-date. Jaromil said he will add support for qemu (at least) in the next bake. If you can't wait, you may try doing it yourself using the devuan-sdk. https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-sdk == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] rumors on RMS about systemd at libreplanet
Would it be possible to avoid offensive characterization of people who do not think along the same lines? Would it be possible to avoid gender-biased characterization of people who are participating in this list? Thank you == hk ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
On 04/02/2015 07:36 PM, Franco Lanza wrote: > Personally on debian i was using from date > > APT:Install-Recommends "0"; > APT:Install-Suggests "0"; > > What do you think if we make this the default in devuan? > *** +1. I'm all for minimalism in Devuan, and encouraging people to use Blends for extended setups. Maybe there should be a meta-package that people who expect the system to suck in everything can install to get back the greedy experience. In any case, this should be documented. In the upcoming https://talk.devuan.org/ there's a topic to document and discuss the differences between Jessie the cowgirl and Jessie the minor planet. Oh, did I just announce the Devuan forum? == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Call for factoids on the Debian fork
Hello dears, one of the current tasks of the Devuan Editors is to gather facts about the Debian fork in order to write a compelling story to be told on debianfork.org. This domain will hopefully be the place to deflect and defuse any troll about the Debian fork and systemd, in order to focus devuan.org on the actual distro work. Any help is welcome to gather original emails, timelines, witness accounts, key people and facts. The objective, I repeat, is to gather facts, not gossip, and not opinions or feelings about systemd. What I want to do is reply to the question: "why did Devuan fork Debian?" in the most sensible way possible. (Incidentally, "how" it happened may also be relevant ;o) If you'd like to get involved in the writing process, please idle on #devuan-www on Freenode IRC. Thank you for your attention and for your help. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
On 04/03/2015 01:28 PM, Anto wrote: > > The login form seems to support the synchronisation with Gitlab account, > which I also already registered a few months back. But I got nginx 404 > error when I clicked on "with Gitlab". > *** The single-sign-on with Gitlab requires a Gitlab setting which I don't control. It was supposed to come with last upgrade (March 20?) but I didn't get notified about anything, so I'm calling whoever is root on git.devuan.org to coordinate with me so we can have this running soon. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Too many man pages, too much complicated : systemd
On 04/06/2015 04:23 PM, Jude Nelson wrote: > Second, I can't take all the credit :) Besides the VUA collective > (Jaromil, Nextime, Hellekin, and others?), there's also: > *** I'm not VUA. They are genuine spaghetti-raised Italians, I'm just an exiled Piemontese from the XVth Century. I can barely keep up with the Prosecco and a Fragolino would kill me for the day, without mentioning grappa. No, no, the VUA are a special case. I'm simply one of us, one who wants this project to live on and thrive, and responded to the call that "those who do will have a say." I'm here to herd cats. Black ones, stray ones. From the gutter or roaming on a burning roof, with datalove. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
FYI, I've been working on a Discourse instance for Devuan, so that we can have the best of both worlds (email and forum). If this happens, the developers can simply ignore threads they're not interested in and keep focused on work. The forum form is likely to grow beyond what any single person can follow anyway, so I hope the email integration will be good enough for the purpose of replacing the mailing list. Nothing written in stone though, just a general intention. == hk ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On 04/08/2015 11:57 AM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > Rather than dividing the list between developers and users, > it would be better to divide them betwen technical and nontechnical. > *** We could use mailman's topics for that. When you want to talk about development, use the [dev] tag in the Subject, and if you're not interested in anything else, simply subscribe to the [dev] topic and ignore the rest. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On 04/08/2015 07:44 PM, Joerg Reisenweber wrote: > > We got #debianfork and #devuan IRC channels for pretty much the same reasons, > and it seems it sort of works there. So for ML that would be the natural > template to follow. > *** Except the move from IRC to email matches in nature the move from fish to mammals. Two completely different worlds. On IRC it makes sense to use as many channels as you like, because you're just an Alt-A away from any of them. We have #debianfork for, well, general chat. We have #devuan, which was originally a split for developers, but became a tad more chatty than anticipated. And then we have #devuan-dev where bots spit commits like it's raining bits, so people there hardly chat. I really don't believe there's a natural template to follow there, besides NOT alienating users and devs. What I'm looking forward to is having a single "Devuan community channel" that people can use via email or Web seamlessly, and where specific groups can form and have focused discussions while other people will chat away their lives for their own and others' enjoyment. But at any moment, someone can send a heads up and have all eyeballs watching that group fading away and call them back to the center of everyone's attention. This won't happen with split lists. This already happens on the gitlab where issues can be used as focused back and forth communication media to get things done. I hope the forum can satisfy the needs of a larger community who won't necessarily adopt a pragmatic and utilitarian approach of "tracking issues". All things being equal, I'd rather stick to the minimalist mailing list approach: one. I'm already struggling to read any single mailing list regularly not to have another two lists in my inbox. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On 04/09/2015 01:15 AM, Martijn Dekkers wrote: >> We do not need another list. >> > > That's pretty arrogant. Can you back that up with some actual reasons, like > others in this discussion are doing? Or is this simply a case of "because I > said so" > It's not arrogant, it's a fact. There's not even a single release, only a dozen or so regular participants, and you already want to detach developers from users? You're proposing to solve a problem that does not exist yet. People used to mailing lists use filters when they're annoyed with the traffic. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On 04/09/2015 01:17 AM, Martijn Dekkers wrote: > > The reason the vast majority of projects use separate lists is because it > *works* [dev] tagged topics don't work very well, because in most cases, > people tend to forget, or change the subjectline, or whatever. > *** I agree that Mailman's topics suck because it's on the poster to remember to put the tag. The good thing though, is that developers are more likely to learn the trick than non-developers, especially if they automate this when sending to the list*, which developers know how to do, right? So noise automatically gets below the threshold with a minimal effort. * On the condition they stick to posting "work-related stuff" and refrain from being human. But I'd rather have a "mailing list" system that allows anyone to subscribe once, and then select topics they are actually interested in participating to, rather than segregating from the start. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On 04/09/2015 01:13 AM, Martijn Dekkers wrote: > > Thats just uninformed bullshit. > > [snip] > > list). Interestingly, I see two broad groups. Those that want a simple dev > list, and those that absolutely don't want other people to have one, for > the most tenuous of arguments. > *** I see another two groups: people who want to work together and build something different that won't end up in an isolated technical committee in their ivory towers, and bullies. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On 04/08/2015 09:49 PM, Steve Litt wrote: > > I make the following pledge to make sure I don't cause or continue conflict > or noise on Dng: > > 1) I will not respond, at least on-list, to any thread discussing the > merits or shames of systemd. I will either ignore, respond offlist, or > filter and move on. > > 2) If discussing init systems, I will confine myself to their > technicalities and possible concerns about future changes. > > 3) I will be nice in my on-list responses. > > 4) Any "don't feed the troll" responses I give will be offlist. > *** +1. We do not need another list. If and when we do, we can think about it. It's the third message I send on the same topic in three different threads. I can't see that as being very productive. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] The new forum
On 04/08/2015 06:34 PM, Go Linux wrote: > > It bears little resemblance to the technical forums to which I have become > accustomed. > *** Thank you. I really hope non-technical people will like it. I hate technical discussions about computers. They suck, because they're either dick-wagging contests or quickly fall far from the humans supposedly benefiting from them. It's time for people to amplify their minds, and not suffer the diktat of flat-ass belly-rounded specialists. > Badges? Really?? Good grief! > *** That's a default feature of the system. It can be disabled. It could also prove useful. It consists in specific requests against the database. I have no opinion about them. > Why can't we have a no-fills forum that isn't so cutsy, socially-tainted > and icon-laden? > *** There's an option that is (allegedly) activated to enable participation by email, and that's the principle feature I'm looking forward to see working and working well. > it seems to cater to a completely different crowd than the one populating > this list. > *** Yes, I anticipate that the more successful we are, the less email freaks will haunt the community--says an email freak. An important point to keep in mind is that this system (supposedly) can function as a mailing list, except you can opt-in (or out) or what you actually want to receive in your inbox. Another advantage of the forum, and this one in particular, is the ability to recompose topics so that conversation becomes discussion, and discussion becomes documentation. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] fontawesome icon fix!
Did you check that the fonts now display correctly (without the userscript)? == hk ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Devuan financial report
The donations page [0] says "Next one is due by the end of March 2015." Did I miss it? == hk [0]: https://devuan.org/donate.html -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Devuan News, volume 02, issue XXIV
# Devuan News Issue XXIV __Volume 02, Week 19, Devuan Week 24__ Released Tuesday, 12015/05/12 [HE](why-he) https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-news/wikis/past-issues/volume-02/issue-024 ## Editorial You may have noticed that some time has elapsed since the last issue was published. We are sorry for that delay. One of the reasons is the lack of free time as the newsletter is a volunteer project and there is a lot of hard work going on with the developers. But *Devuan Weekly News* hasn't disappeared, we're still here. And now we are officially dropping *'Weekly'* from our name. For two reasons. The first reason is to avoid confusion with the Debian Weekly News (also DWN). The Devuan newsletter will now be known as Devuan News (DN). The second reason is the lack of (wo)man power. The DN will be published when it's published depending on our collective circumstances and inclinations. A final note goes to thank all the volunteers working on the Devuan News. *You* make this possible. @etech3 ## Lately in Devuan ### [vdev status update][3] Jude keeps delivering the goods with `vdev`. After having extracted `libudev` from `systemd 219` , he shares a difficulty with the initial idea of using `inotify(2)` to monitor devices changes, and announces a workaround plan. Any feedback on the above development plan is welcome, especially if a simpler, more robust approach can be found. Thanks to all who followed [Jude's instruction to provide testing information for vdev development][3a]. Keep'em coming! ### [Financial report, 1st trimester 2015][4] This report from @jaromil also includes a summary of the Devuan project's development. ### [Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?][5] There was a thread started by Anto which included several interesting responses: From jaromil - https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150505.173308.c2f664a8.en.html From Isaac Dunham - https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150505.235121.db200a9a.en.html ### [A novice attempt to speed up Devuan development][6] Anto posted on his Devuan installation via debootstrap. ### [Please stop vain discussion][7] Didier commented on yet another debate over whether Devuan should allow systemd usage or forbid it completely. @nextime responded with a statement about Devuan generic policy and systemd: > "The official position is we will support anything that can be packaged without hijacking the whole system to be installed. Actually systemd doesn't match this requirement, so, Devuan will not support it as long it doesn't radically change. Anyway we will not intentionally obstacle anyone that eventually wants to use it outside official Devuan release." ### [I used Devuan's debootstrap and installed Devuan][8] Several users (like Edward Bartolo and David Hare) reported their experiences with Devuan's new debootstrap. ### [Linux boot documentation][9] Steve Litt announced his latest oeuvre which generated an interesting technical discussion of the boot process. ### Are we there yet? There has been some chatter on and off the last few weeks (on the IRC channels) relating to the Q: "Has there been an official release of Devuan?" A: There is no official release as of yet, but a testable iso ([pre-alpha][pre-alpha] and a [vagrant][vagrant] version). Q: Are there any rough estimates for the first release? is it more like 2 months or more like a year? A: "When it's ready" :D nextime responded "when it is ready, but at least I can assure that it isn't a year". ## Devuan's Not Gnome DNG is the discussion list of the Devuan Project. - [Subscribe to the list][subscribe] - [Subscribe to the feed][atom-feed] - [Read online archives][archives] --- Read you soon! Devuan News is made by your peers: you're [welcome to contribute][wiki]! + Created by Noel "@Envite" Torres + @hellekin (editor at large) + @golinux (word wrangler) + @lightbringer (AKA. MinceR, sentence fixaupper) + @DocScrutinizer05 (proofreader) + @etech3 (markdown master in training MMIT) -- [3]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150406.203624.a1b96212.en.html "vdev status update" [3a]: https://git.devuan.org/pkgs-utopia-substitution/vdev/blob/master/how-to-test.md "How to test vdev" [4]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150503.224708.236843dd.en.html "Financial report, 1st trimester 2015" [5]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150505.105746.fea9a964.en.html "Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?" [6]:https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150505.065520.2303aae4.en.html "A novice attempt to speed up Devuan development" [7]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/thread/20150506.194559.3168e0c6.en.html "Please stop vain discussion" [8]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/201505
Re: [Dng] Document on using Qemu for Linux DIY
On 05/14/2015 08:18 PM, Steve Litt wrote: > > sharing host and guest /tmp/xfer directory via sshfs. > *** I use the Plan9 way for sharing folders (per someone's suggestion on the list): https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/wikis/try-devuan-on-qemu#sharing-a-folder-with-the-host == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] straw poll, non-free firmware for installers
On 06/03/2015 05:53 AM, James Powell wrote: > If the firmware aids in compatibility and driver support then yes, include it. > *** I think non-free anything should not be "included" by default. For the sake of "universality", they should be available to people who actually need them. Many people will expect non-free drivers to be readily available during installation, and they'd be "right" to do so. Not because such hardware should be supported, but because most of the time, users do not have control over the production of hardware (nor the consumption: "good" hardware is less readily available than "bad" one.) As Devuan offers a pretty easy and automated way to make a custom build, maybe we should take advantage of this, and provide a way for downloading non-free blobs during install, after the detection was made. This way would at least make users aware of the problem. Moreover, this would enable surveying what non-free software sneak in our machines on a large scale and help fight this situation. If we just tuck in non-free drivers in the default installer, we make it normal to surrender our rights to hardware manufacturers. On the contrary, we should expose them*. Some people will not have this kind of ethical dilemma and will happily burn a modified Devuan version with all the malware tucked in. And it's good they do, because in some cases that means the machine will run at all. But for the sake of Devuan, I wish we did not provide that product ourselves for it should be the proprietary software and hardware vendors-defectors who should provide for their own needs, and not the cooperative community. == hk *: it would be awesome if we could simply feed the h-node.org database automatically to report working and failing components automatically. -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] straw poll, non-free firmware for installers
On 06/03/2015 12:06 PM, Nate Bargmann wrote: > > IMO, network hardware that needs a non-free blob is the most glaring > issue > *** Yes, indeed, many computers come with broken hardware that won't work without installing proprietary software. I think this case is the single case that should be exemplary: the official Devuan network installer should not, IMO, support this case. It is not against users, but against manufacturers. We all know what the workaround is: build an installer with the required firmware. Well, I think that work should be supported by manufacturers, not by the community. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] straw poll, non-free firmware for installers
On 06/03/2015 11:37 AM, Laurent Bercot wrote: > > about licensing purity. > and: > But whatever you do, don't paternalize the users. There's nothing more > infuriating than an infantilizing message in the way of what you want to > do. > and: > Your users chose Devuan: they already have made a good choice. and: > do not disrespect them by force-feeding them moralistic crap they don't > care about and that will only antagonize them. > *** I must I was almost agreeing until "moralistic crap". This is your opinion, and in my own, an unfounded one. What we're talking about here is about technology, not moralistic anything. The technology we're building is one that empowers the user, and it is arguable whether considering the imposition of freedom-restricting technology empowers the use or not. The case is hardware that the user buys and that refuses to work without secret code from the company. Would you buy a car if the seller would tell you that you will need to use their own specific fuel and tires, and only drive highways? Of course not, because you buy a mean of transport, not an universal ticket for free transportation. If Devuan is to replace Debian in its role of a foundation for free software distribution, then it needs to be closer to Debian, not to Ubuntu. And since we have the opportunity to discuss the matter, I'm for a "core" distribution of free software, that enables anyone to build upon that core, including softening its edges and allow it to enable self-rendition to proprietary software. This core distribution should fly high the colors of software freedom, because nobody else will do. And a fundamental software freedom is you can use it for any purpose, including making yourself a slave of corporations. But that should be a choice, and one that the distribution does not encourage by default. Now, the base installer is such a vector of individuation, as Debian 8 demonstrated by using it to install systemd. Systemd is free software, but we don't like it to be installed by default. Now we would frown at it and happily include non-free software in our base installer? I really don't see the point. Again, that people buy hardware requiring non-free software to run is a problem, but that problem does not need to be ignored and dismissed, it needs to be confronted and fixed. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On 07/14/2015 09:59 PM, Franco Lanza wrote: > More than the already know switch from gnome to xcfe4 as the default > desktop and the oblovious change to sysvinit instead of systemd, i would > to propose some other default changes in the standard install: > > nano -> vim > exim -> postfix > > > what do you guys think about that? > *** I think the 1.0 release should focus on replacing systemd init with sysvinit, and the choice of XFCE for the desktop was part of this strategy. There's no substantial reason rather than personal preference to change other packages from the base install. Such changes can, and should be made using custom preseed files, for example. Debian/Devuan have a number of ways to customize a setup (tasks, seeds, blends, etc.) and this should become a primary objective once 1.0 is out. It is my conviction that a system wishing universality should keep options as diverse as possible for the people who will use it. From that perspective, I see Devuan as a base system, suitable for building upon it. I believe configurations and presets are where the Devuan community can shine, and that the devuan-sdk is a great starting point to choose this route. Doing this would encourage Debian developers to reflect on their choice to impose a narrower route to what's possible to do with the system. On the contrary, changing too many default packages from a base install of Debian would probably unnecessarily complicate things for people who need to work with both systems. That said, my personal choice has always been to install vim (in addition to, not in replacement of GNU nano), and to replace exim by postfix first thing (+ ssh, zsh, emacs, ...). But I agree with Dan that postfix might be overkill for some users, and especially desktop users who will use a remote setup for SMTP and IMAP servers. The ssmtp package seems like a good alternative. I also agree with Golinux that vim is simply unusable for profanes, especially those humans who expect to be able to actually write text when they open an editor. Cheers, == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On 07/15/2015 07:41 PM, Didier Kryn wrote: > If the gurus use vim and dislike nano, since they are > gurus, they can change the default themselves and leave the ordinary > people with a limited but usable editor. > *** Totally agree: why put a burden on the profane when it takes two seconds for any *NIX user to override the default editor? When people open an editor, they want to type on the keyboard and see their input reflected on the screen, not figure out why they can't. Vi does not offer this by default, and I don't know if it can start in INSERT mode. Note that "vi -y", the "easy mode" seems to automatically switch to INSERT mode when you type, but then it doesn't understand ESC-: for commands AND does not accept C-Z to suspend*, so it's actually harder to use than normal vi... /o\ Maybe IF AND ONLY IF vim-tiny can be started in INSERT mode and suggests the user how to save, exit, and get help, then it can work as a good replacement for nano. * BTW, I don't think nano supports suspend by default in the upstream configuration. That could be a good change to make to the default nano configuration ("set suspend"). Nothing more annoying than being unable to suspend a process (also looking at you "vi -y"). == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On 07/15/2015 01:40 PM, Franco Lanza wrote: > > Well, in my personal opinion devuan should not focus on new users, as > nor debian does. > > For new users there are plenty of distros, most notable ubuntu, and we > should not compete with it. > *** I STRONGLY oppose this view, and you already know why: there are plenty of ways to build upon a minimalist base and provide an easy "upgrade" from total newbie to guru in a snap with preseed files, tasks, "seeds", or blends. For example there should be a minimal base install of Devuan that allows anyone to build upon and make a derivative; there should be a server install aimed at system administrators, and there yes, you can default to vim and postfix; and there should be a default desktop install with XFCE. But making such choices as ignoring new users by default is in my opinion a sorry strategy when it's so easy to build upon a sane base. > > Second focus is to be a "base framework" for derivatives > *** Well, I think that the "base framework" should be the default Devuan, and everything we do is built upon that e.g., as Blends. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Devuan without salt
Following the discussion on defaults and a couple of recent remarks from Jaromil regarding audio ("for professionals") and Franco's opinion to ignore new users and "focus on intermediate users", I'd like to make a point: if Devuan is supposed to incarnate the legacy of Debian (as is mentioned in the wiki: "We consider ourselves the actual Debian legacy." [0]), there's a simple truth that should be crystal clear to anyone on this list (pardon the pun): IT'S VERY EASY TO ADD SALT, BUT VERY HARD TO REMOVE IT. Moreover, if Devuan delivers a base distro that actually invites users to personalize it and share their preferences (popcorn with foresight), then users will understand that this distribution is actually about their freedom, and not just in words. The "user" is a deadly trap of an abstraction, and Devuan should simply consider that the "user" ranges from a 3-year-old kid using a computer for the first time without supervision to Donald Knuth, and provide a simple system to accommodate both with minimal effort (I guess you got my position by now: using devuan-sdk, 'seeds', tasks, blends, and a public repository à la Mozilla addons...). == hk Reductionism is the art of focusing on the forces that fit a model in order to maximize the probability of an experimental result matching the theory. Complexity begs to differ. [0]: https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/wikis/home -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] proposed changes: the results
On 07/16/2015 11:41 PM, Franco Lanza wrote: > > What do you think about moving this way? > *** Your proposals are very consensual and pregnant of the users' freedom of choice. This is a great way to enable an open system embracing variety and selection, and this should be kept in mind for other future proposals. Kudos, == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] vi for beginners
On 07/16/2015 06:24 PM, Riccardo Boninsegna wrote: >> >> :wq > > ZZ (uppercase) saves and quits, no questions asked! > :x also saves and exits. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Devuan Security
I suggest we add a devuan-security group on the gitlab, with a secur...@devuan.org with a GPG key. Any objection? Any volunteer? == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] How to enable LetsEncrypt Authority to access git.devuan.org (was Re: Expired SSL certificate for git.devuan.org)
On 12/24/2015 03:24 PM, Don Wright wrote: > > Perhaps Let's Encrypt isn't included in the default certification > authorities in your Iceweasel build (unlikely). Visit > https://letsencrypt.org and check the Support pages. --Don > The Tor Browser Bundle plays fine with LetsEncrypt. It uses Firefox version 38.5.0. Current Devuan (and Debian) Iceweasel version 38.4.0 is broken and doesn't allow the user to bypass the alert (talk about freedom of choice.) All right, it's not broken, it simply respect HSTS. Whatever, it *looks* broken, and *acts* broken. You can access the Gitlab if you add the *Let’s Encrypt Authority X1* certificate by hand: 1. Get it from https://letsencrypt.org/certificates/ (direct link: https://letsencrypt.org/certs/letsencryptauthorityx1.pem 2. Open Edit>Preferences>Advanced>Certificates>View Certificates 3. Click import, check the "trust for websites" 4. Save and reload the https://git.devuan.org/ == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan Weekly News LX (Errata)
On 01/04/2016 03:07 PM, Arnt Karlsen wrote: >> >> https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-news/wikis/past-issues/volume-03/issue-060 >> >> tips about UUID's][2], Arnt Karlsen talked about the [purpose of > > ..er, I did not, I asked the (I believe timely) question > "..where did the "/media tradition" come from anyway? " > and thenafter it was Stephanie Daugherty who _answered_ > my question by talking about said purpose. > Thank you for this correction, Arnt. It's been corrected on the Web version. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] git.devuan.org upgrade
Hello, git.devuan.org will go down for a scheduled upgrade on Friday, January 22nd, in the (EU) evening. Cheers, == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] git.devuan.org upgrade
On 01/20/2016 12:27 PM, hellekin wrote: > Hello, > > git.devuan.org will go down for a scheduled upgrade on Friday, January > 22nd, in the (EU) evening. > I am timezone-challenged :) Hope everything is fine. Please report any anomalies. Happy hacking! == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] ..tails boum boum boum: Tails 2.0 is out, systemd "coup d'etat" against torproject.org?
Arnt Karlsen: > > and: https://tails.boum.org/news/version_2.0/index.en.html > > ... > > Change to systemd as init system > I think it makes sense for a Live CD desktop distribution to do so, as it doesn't have to deal with legacy nor with broken upgrades, and it's not upgrading a running server system with custom scripts. If it crashes, damage is very limited. That said, I'd love to see a Devuan blend that mimicks Tails, Whonix, JohnDoe, etc. and provides a secure live CD for anonymity and privacy preservation. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Never say that again: was Debian is endorsed by Microsoft
On 01/28/2016 01:16 AM, Arnt Karlsen wrote: ..small fish, nice tits. ;o) >>> >>> The preceding half sentence is one example of something that should >>> NEVER appear in any Devuan venue. Ever. >>> > > > ..either way, > I'm sorry to tell you, Arnt Karlsen, that the only correct answer you should have made is to apologize for this sexist, thoughtless, idiotic comment. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Never say that again: was Debian is endorsed by Microsoft
On 01/27/2016 07:27 PM, Steve Litt wrote: > > We anti-systemd people are already a tiny minority. > Indeed, Steve, *you* are. I'm not anti-systemd. Systemd has the right to exist, like slugs, bugs, rats, bullshit, bad coffee, or cyanide. I just don't want to have anything to do with it, and systemd should respect that choice. My opinion on systemd has nothing to do with "we." It has more to do with "not interested." Therefore I'm going to add a filter that trashes threads mentioning systemd at all, and I urge you to do the same, because Devuan is not about systemd, but about freedom of choice. Obviously people who want systemd already have that choice, and it's not related to this mailing list. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Can I create other projects on git.devuan.org besides netman?
On 01/31/2016 03:38 PM, Edward Bartolo wrote: > Hi All, > > Since space on servers costs money I am asking whether I am allowed to > create other project on git.devuan.org? > Everyone has 10 projects by default. Did you reach that limit already? == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Devuan News LX
# Devuan News Issue LX __Volume 03, Week 4, Devuan Week 60__ Released 12016/01/31 [HE](why-he) https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-news/wikis/past-issues/volume-03/issue-060 ## Editorial In this issue, we can feel the _beta release approaching_. Desktop branding is approaching completion, the repositories are reaching their stable configuration, Devuan takes care of an abandoned Debian package, and introduces a new package to manage mount points automatically. Go Devuan developers, go! Before we get to the beta, __a new alpha image was released today__ to fill the gap that has been widening between the current version of Devuan packages and the existing alpha image. This should be the last alpha version before beta. The gap between the next alpha and beta will certainly be much shorter: not only we'd rather have a beta soon, that can already be used in staging environments by professionals, we're also aiming at releasing it before Debian Wheezy becomes unsupported. This issue is mostly the work of @dev1fanboy, who's been regularly reading and annotating the mailing list topics. As you may have noticed, we, Devuan Editors, have not been able to sustain a weekly issue of Devuan "Weekly" News. Therefore we decided to move from a "weekly" schedule to "when it's ready". We hope you understand that it's not a lack of commitment, but rather a lack of means. With more participants we could certainly produce a more regular newsletter: this is your news, and you can make it! Moreover, we don't really know who's reading, and whether this newsletter fulfills an actual need. We'd appreciate feedback about how we could better the newsletter -- what works, what doesn't and what's missing. Please use the subject "About Devuan News" on the mailing list to comment on this topic. Thank you! -- @hellekin ## Breaking News ### [NEW Devuan Alpha4 Released][0] Daniel Reurich released an updated alpha image: `alpha2` was released 7 months ago and a lot of packages were updated since, including many security updates. `alpha3` was built but not distributed--because the main change was the splash image, and not much else. One of the recent Linux security updates broke `alpha2`: most of the filesystem modules were broken with symbol mismatch. You can [get the new `alpha4`][0] from `files.devuan.org`. ## Lately in Devuan ### [Progress has been made with desktop-base][1] Daniel Reurich reports that he has been hacking on the desktop-base package to add new features and make the package easier to maintain in the future. He mentions that the Devuan version now has little resemblance to the original desktop-base package from Debian, and is asking people to fork the package on gitlab and make merge requests for any proposed changes. Progress on this means that the package is almost complete, bringing us closer to the anticipated beta release. To repeat and insist on @CenturionDan's call: "__Please fork and make merge requests with any proposed changes.__" ### [How to use the ip command][2] Steve Litt tours automatic network configuration in Debian, and points out an easy way to configure the network that doesn't rely on the system scripts. He shows how to use the `ip` command with a script he provided that brings up network interfaces in a simple and distro agnostic way. ### [Devuan adopts the kbd package][3] Clarke Sideroad gives a heads-up: Debian no longer supports the kbd package for console configuration in Debian Sid, which also effects Devuan Ceres (unstable). Daniel Reurich is [preparing the package for unstable][4] so that it may be handed over to a maintainer. Once this happens the kbd package will be included in unstable, offering users the choice to continue using it to configure the console. ### [Devuan merged and debian multimedia repos will be separated][5] Recently @golinux asked why the Debian "multimedia" repository is being included in the Devuan "merged" repo. She's concerned about the history of issues when using the Debian "multimedia" repo with Debian, and Simon Wise confirms that [this could cause some problems on Devuan][6]. Daniel Reurich explains that [this was mostly done as a test for amprolla][7] and later [raises an issue about the problem][8]. Once the repositories are separated Devuan will remained unaffected by any potential related problems. ## New projects for Devuan ### [Amounter][9] As mentioned in the previous issue `amounter` is an auto-mounting program written by Steve Litt in the Python programming language, with the aims of having minimal dependencies and avoiding complications. Amounter runs independently of file managers, window managers, and desktop environments and is suitable for use with the console. The author [announced its release in late December][10] on the DNG mailing list. Since `amounter`
Re: [DNG] About Devuan News
On 02/01/2016 09:24 AM, Noel Torres wrote: > > For familiar reasons I'm not able to continue working in the beautiful > Devuan News work I started, but I love to know that it continues alive. > Reading it is my main point of connection with the Devuan community and > as such I need it to continue. > > Thanks, thanks, thanks > Many thanks to you Noel for having started on AD nulla* :) * Week Zero After Devuan == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Semi OT: Mailman, Lurker and referencing messages
On 02/01/2016 10:49 AM, Florian Zieboll wrote: > > Can Mailman predict the URL under which Lurker will archive the message > it is processing "on the fly", or is there even a variable available? > > Quoting and referencing "third party" messages would be so much easier, > if mails contained their own Lurker URL in the signature! > This is an excellent idea. Mailman developers already thought about it: http://wiki.list.org/DEV/Stable%20URLs I guess we can investigate and find out how to generate these from mailman, and then have a nice URL like: https://lurker.devuan.org/ to redirect to the relevant lurker message. This would also make Devuan Editors' lives easier when working on the newsletter. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Easynetaid is for now netman's new name
On 02/07/2016 01:00 PM, Edward Bartolo wrote: > > If someone suggests a serious name that is better suited than the new > name, I will consider it. > I'd like to suggest *netbeam*, also callable by `beammeup` or `beam [me] up [Scotty]` There's no netbeam package nor any `beam` UNIX command. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
On 02/10/2016 07:20 AM, Didier Kryn wrote: >>> Sorry I missed that, does it handle wifi roaming? > > It means you can transport your laptop to whichever place there is a > wifi ap (which you have entered once in your config) and your laptop > will automatically connect to the network, without you having to even > care about it. > Which doesn't seem to be reliable with wicd. Did anyone else have this experience? == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Which Devuan alpha4 for vbox?
On 02/16/2016 06:05 PM, GoOSSBears wrote: > Wish to run an i386 Devuan alpha4 as a guest OS in VirtualBox's > current v5.0.14[1], and under an i386 Linux-distro host. > The Devuan download zone[2] currently lists the four possibilities > for this as > > - devuan-jessie-i386-alpha4.box > - devuan-jessie-i386-alpha4.qcow2 > - devuan-jessie-i386-alpha4-netboot.iso > - devuan-jessie-i386-alpha4-netboot-auto.iso > > [snip] - .box is a Vagrant image for VirtualBox. See: https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/wikis/try-devuan-on-vagrant - .qcow2 is for QEmu: See: https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/wikis/try-devuan-on-qemu - You can boot your VirtualBox from any of the ISOs. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan Vagrant install OSX
On 02/22/2016 08:14 PM, Wim wrote: > Hi List, > > > I've tried to install Devuan on Vagrant/OSX Mavericks. > Hey Wim, are you talking about the Alpha4 .box file? If yes, then we need to open some tickets :) In general you can report issues at https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/issues Thank you for testing! == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Installing different version of Linux
I'm very excited about having a linux-libre package for devuan. Thank you Aitor == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Set up a local copy of Daniel Reurich's branch of my project
On 02/12/2016 04:11 PM, Edward Bartolo wrote: > Hi, > > I would like to set up a local copy of Daniel Reurich's branch of my > project so that I can help in fixing bugs. > For the record, as I'm sure you already figured this out, you can use `git remote` in your existing repository. If you run: `git remote -v` you will see "origin" with URIs for fetch and push. All you need to do to add Dan's branch is to add a remote pointing to his repository, e.g.: `git remote add net https://git.devuan.org/net/simple-netaid.git` Then you can get the code and branches from this repo: `git fetch net` Finally you can switch to the wanted branch: `git co -b local-name net/remote-name` Git will then follow the net/remote-name branch into your local-name branch (so you can simply `git pull` and `git push` from and to this remote branch). > > At the end I also need to make sure I can 'git push' my changes to > Daniel's branch. I have been granted developer access to it. > For this to work, you need to use the `SSH` URI for the remote repository and have developer access to it. Usually I add a remote with `HTTPS`, and then update the push URI to use git+ssh: `git remote set-url --push net g...@git.devuan.org:net/simple-netaid.git` == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Trying (again) to compile simple-netaid (was netman)
On 02/09/2016 11:56 AM, KatolaZ wrote: > > [snip] > > Is there a place where I can find this list of dependencies, so that I > can put together the INSTALL file for simple-netaid, and then Edward > or aitor or one of you guys can add it to the repo? > Did Aitor and Edward got that? Is this dependency on Lazarus still needed? == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] leveldb support proposal
On 02/25/2016 04:01 PM, Ivan J. wrote: > Hello DnG. > > Is there interest in Devuan supporting multiple versions of leveldb? > The case of Bitcoin warrants some attention. Moreover, applications derived from Bitcoin may have the same issue. E.g., Twister compiles fine with db-5.3, but it may lead to the same kind of security issues that are supposed to happen if you do so with Bitcoin (honestly I have no clue... Anyone?) == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] A heads up about xfce's future
On 02/27/2016 03:28 AM, Simon Wise wrote: > > something as minimal as possible, like above, seems a very good option. > I dream of a core Devuan that is modular so that the Desktop Environment is a *blend* that you layer on top of core. That way, you can have a choice of DEs that users can prepare for their own pleasure. The question of the default DE comes next: Devuan should be shipped with a default DE. So far we've been focusing on XFCE, for reasons unknown to me (normally I use a tiled WM without DE). I can imagine that Jessie 1.0 Beta will ship with XFCE by default. I hope Jessie 1.0 will ship with a choice for WM/DE, each implemented as a blend. That way the community can maintain a collection of *properly configured and integrated desktops* for those who want to use that, and leave the rest of us free to build on the foundation, not just decorate of a pre-chewed environment. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] A heads up about xfce's future
On 02/28/2016 07:38 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > I suggest we use this mailing list for communication, and label each > post with the word DE in capital letters on the subject line. > Thus they'll end up arriving as [DNG] DE ... > We can do that, or use Mailman topics: so if you put [DE] in your Subject, you are filtered. That way people who want can subscribe to a subset of the list. The main issue with this process is that it forces you to include the tag in the Subject every time. Anyway a month or two from now, Discourse will be ready to surpass Mailman as a mailing list manager, thanks to a grant the Discourse team received for that purpose [0]. This is great news for people allergic to Web forum, as you will be able to do everything without ever opening a Web browser. On the Gitlab there's no group yet for Desktop. If enough people are interested in configuring, customizing, and finding commonalities between Desktop Environments that could be interesting. == hk [0]: https://blog.discourse.org/2015/12/discourse-selected-for-mozilla-open-source-support-program/ -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Packaging Vdev
On 03/14/2016 08:04 PM, Rainer Weikusat wrote: >>> >>> 0.1.20160314+1deb1 >>> >>> I was purposing something like this: >>> >>> 0.1.d5d965-jessie1 >>> >>> There is not a great difference between both. If you prefer to use >>> the date instead of the short commit, i will do so. >> >> The whole point with version numbers is to be able to compare them to >> know which is more up-to-date. Wouldn't using a hash conflict with >> this? > I suggest using version numbers compatible with [SemVer][0]. It doesn't strike me as incompatible with Debian versioning and brings some interesting programmatic advantage to manage dependencies upstream. If upstream is v0.1.0, you could use: 0.1.0-jude[-devuan-version]. `-devuan-version` would be preceded by a hyphen per the Debian documentation that was provided in this thread. The package then would show, e.g., 0.1.0-jude-jessie1. == hk [0]: http://semver.org/ "Semantic Versioning" -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Where to get beta?
On 03/17/2016 07:56 PM, Steve Litt wrote: > > Where can I download Devuan's beta? > In the near future, as Mitt suggested ;o), from https://devuan.org/ and https://files.devuan.org/. For now, in Centurion_dan's pocket :) Tip: for anything related to the Web, please report issues to https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-www/issues. > IMHO, right now, today, links should be placed at the very > top of the current https://devuan.org website > Won't gonna happen. Current devuan.org and future devuan.org are completely different. We're working towards beta, and that's happening soon, so the current site is frozen (actually it's not, but we don't really have time to ride both horses.) How to join the mailing-list: isn't a link to https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng enough? How to join the IRC channels: what else than telling they're on freenode and linking to them? How to download latest Devuan installer: for now it's manual, you need to get it from files.devuan.org. Once the beta release is out, you will be able to *seed the torrent* with all images. Download link(s) will be available from devuan.org frontpage. > showing how to join the mailing list, how to join the IRC channel(s), > and how to download the beta and the latest alpha (4, isn't it?). > - Information on the mailing-list, IRC, etc. will be available (from /os/contact and /os/community AFAIR). - Information how to download the beta will be accessible as well from the front page. - Information about alpha4 will be deprecated, so no link. We're still discussing how to handle the files.devuan.org to optimize our distribution scheme. Keeping older releases is interesting for historical research purpose, but quite dangerous for production use. So in files.devuan.org we're probably provide only the latest version of a release (meaning, IMO, for JESSIE, 1.0-beta when it's out will replace and obsolete alpha releases that will only be accessible through archives, and not supported.) This is to account for software obsolescence: we don't want to encourage installation of compromised software if we can encourage the installation of up-to-date software. Package archives will work as usual, including obsolete packages. Simply the front-end will encourage using the up-to-date installers. Regards, == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] files.devuan.org not working
On 03/30/2016 02:46 PM, parazyd wrote: > > For what it's worth, it is now upped to 30 certs. > Yes, it upped just after--like hours after--the first generation of our certificates :( == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] ...and when trolling went too far
I'd rather not read that kind of degrading perspective in anything related to Devuan anymore. I have enough going on with my life not to be interested in witnessing people vomiting their hate over one another. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] TLS / files.do
In case you didn't notice, all servers are now using proper TLS certificates from Let's Encrypt, except one host: files.devuan.org, that mysteriously failed to acquire some. So this one is using a free certificate from Startcom. If you encounter any issue with TLS, please report to https://git.devuan.org/devuan-infrastructure/todo/issues -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] suspend
On 04/13/2016 12:44 AM, Simon Walter wrote: > > I don't mean that we have to be PC about everything, but > "to be PC"? Err, what? Can you expand the acronym if that doesn't mean Personal Computer? == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Slim GUI greeter with devuan theme
On 04/14/2016 10:47 AM, Boruch Baum wrote: > > https://git.devuan.org/hellekin/slim/issues/1 > I moved the issue where it belongs: https://git.devuan.org/devuan-packages/slim/issues/10 == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Devuan Web A11y
For the Devuan Web we tried to take accessibility into account. If you have a11y issues with https://beta.devuan.org, please report to https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-www/issues?label_name=A11y If you have impaired vision, please consider: https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-www/issues/46 == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng