Re: [DNG] Danger: Debian POSIX hostility
On Wed, Sep 16, 2020 at 02:11:57AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > > Speaking of Netowrk manager, am I the only one who hates it messing > with /etc/resolv.conf? No. You are not the only one. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Danger: Debian POSIX hostility
Il 16/09/20 08:11, Steve Litt ha scritto: > On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 16:41:19 + > A Nilsson wrote: > >>> From: Dng [mailto:dng-boun...@lists.dyne.org] On Behalf Of Bruce >>> Perens via Dng Sent: den 14 september 2020 06:23 >> >>> Systemd and so on are symptoms of the Unix design not really being >>> a good fit for modern demands. >> >> It is important to specify whose demands we are talking about. >> >> The underlying interests of end users and of system administrators >> are remarkably different from those of commercial actors. The latter >> ones are highly motivated, by their nature, to monopolize the control >> over the technical platform. Unix indeed was not designed with this >> purpose in mind. > > I couldn't have said it better. > > In addition, I don't see why Unix design isn't a good fit for modern > demands. Edward and Aitor have already made do-one-thing-and-do-it-well > graphical automounters that, as far as I know, depend on neither > systemd nor dbus. I once posted, on this list, a thumb drive plugin > detector/mounter, and somebody else on the list improved on it. Hi, we should team up with other distributions that are no-systemd, e.g pclinuxos (but there are others debian based) which have resolved this problems already having various flavors of full-fledged DEs. This would reduce effort duplication, ensure that the code is maintained and give the needed man power. > Relatively speaking, I don't think a Network-manager replacement would > be difficult to build, although I never finished with my attempt. > > Speaking of Netowrk manager, am I the only one who hates it messing > with /etc/resolv.conf? This feature could be disabled by adding this to the [main] section: dns=none in /etc/NetworkManager/NetworkManager.conf You know what I'd like? I'd like > /etc/resolv.conf to be a symlink to one of many files, such as > resolv.dhcp, which *could* be modified by the network manager, and all > sorts of others that can be switched in and out by a shellscript. Most > folks would just use the symlink to resolv.dhcp, but folks like us > could actually put our own unbound on our laptops and use a > resolv.unbound or something like that. > > A Nilsson, you're right: for the commercial actors, Linux is just like > the cars from the 1950's: Change the fins and create a whole new reason > to trade in. And the Appeal to Novelty is much stronger today than it > was in the 1950's. > > SteveT > > Steve Litt Ciao, Tito ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Danger: Debian POSIX hostility
Anno domini 2020 Wed, 16 Sep 02:11:57 -0400 Steve Litt scripsit: > On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 16:41:19 + > A Nilsson wrote: > > > > From: Dng [mailto:dng-boun...@lists.dyne.org] On Behalf Of Bruce > > > Perens via Dng Sent: den 14 september 2020 06:23 > > > > > Systemd and so on are symptoms of the Unix design not really being > > > a good fit for modern demands. > > > > It is important to specify whose demands we are talking about. > > > > The underlying interests of end users and of system administrators > > are remarkably different from those of commercial actors. The latter > > ones are highly motivated, by their nature, to monopolize the control > > over the technical platform. Unix indeed was not designed with this > > purpose in mind. > > I couldn't have said it better. Don't forget marketing. Those folks usually undestand nothing but think they know everything better. > In addition, I don't see why Unix design isn't a good fit for modern > demands. Edward and Aitor have already made do-one-thing-and-do-it-well > graphical automounters that, as far as I know, depend on neither > systemd nor dbus. I once posted, on this list, a thumb drive plugin > detector/mounter, and somebody else on the list improved on it. Sorry, I must have missed that. Do you have a link to the software? nik > Relatively speaking, I don't think a Network-manager replacement would > be difficult to build, although I never finished with my attempt. > > Speaking of Netowrk manager, am I the only one who hates it messing > with /etc/resolv.conf? You know what I'd like? I'd like > /etc/resolv.conf to be a symlink to one of many files, such as > resolv.dhcp, which *could* be modified by the network manager, and all > sorts of others that can be switched in and out by a shellscript. Most > folks would just use the symlink to resolv.dhcp, but folks like us > could actually put our own unbound on our laptops and use a > resolv.unbound or something like that. > > A Nilsson, you're right: for the commercial actors, Linux is just like > the cars from the 1950's: Change the fins and create a whole new reason > to trade in. And the Appeal to Novelty is much stronger today than it > was in the 1950's. > > SteveT > > Steve Litt > Autumn 2020 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times > http://www.troubleshooters.com/thrive > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA ... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan Made The List
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 14:56:55 -0500 goli...@devuan.org wrote: > On 2020-09-15 14:02, Linux O'Beardly via Dng wrote: > > 10 Best Debian-Based Linux Distributions > > > > https://www.tecmint.com/debian-based-linux-distributions/ > > > > > > Promoting Beowulf with a screenshot of the Jessie desktop. Get it > together tecmint . . . > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng Ubuntu is second on their best list? More like second worst Linux distro still in active development. -- / Kiss me, Kate, we will be married o' \ | Sunday.| || | -- William Shakespeare, "The Taming of | \ the Shrew" / \ \ /\ /\ //\\_//\\ \_ _// / / * * \/^^^] \_\O/_/[ ] / \_[ / \ \_ / / [ [ / \/ _/ _[ [ \ /_/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan Made The List
On Wednesday 16 September 2020 at 20:26:20, tom wrote: > > On 2020-09-15 14:02, Linux O'Beardly via Dng wrote: > > > 10 Best Debian-Based Linux Distributions > > > > > > https://www.tecmint.com/debian-based-linux-distributions/ > > Ubuntu is second on their best list? More like second worst Linux > distro still in active development. "Best" and "worst" are horribly subjective terms, and if you read the wording at the top of that article, you'll see that they confuse "best" with "most popular". Antony. -- "Can you keep a secret?" "Well, I shouldn't really tell you this, but... no." Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] dynamic resolver configuration [Was: Danger: Debian POSIX hostility]
On 2020-09-16 02:11, Steve Litt wrote: > Speaking of Netowrk manager, am I the only one who hates it messing > with /etc/resolv.conf? You know what I'd like? I'd like > /etc/resolv.conf to be a symlink to one of many files, such as > resolv.dhcp, which *could* be modified by the network manager, and all > sorts of others that can be switched in and out by a shellscript. Most > folks would just use the symlink to resolv.dhcp, but folks like us > could actually put our own unbound on our laptops and use a > resolv.unbound or something like that. The resolvconf package already does something like this, and it _can_ be utilized by user scripts, though it is not very well documented and, maybe even worse, not very well "promoted". Also, you can achieve a similar effect by running dnsmasq with a few simple scripts on top, because the "upstream" dnsmasq resolver file is configurable. But when I think about the normal way of resolver configuration I feel, for once, some sympathy for Len^H^H^H the one whose name shall not be said here. -- Ian ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Danger: Debian POSIX hostility
On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 09:53:14 +0200 "Dr. Nikolaus Klepp" wrote: > Anno domini 2020 Wed, 16 Sep 02:11:57 -0400 > Steve Litt scripsit: > > In addition, I don't see why Unix design isn't a good fit for modern > > demands. Edward and Aitor have already made > > do-one-thing-and-do-it-well graphical automounters that, as far as > > I know, depend on neither systemd nor dbus. I once posted, on this > > list, a thumb drive plugin detector/mounter, and somebody else on > > the list improved on it. > > Sorry, I must have missed that. Do you have a link to the software? > > nik No, sorry. Best way to find it is to search posts from Steve Litt body-containing the string "inotify". Once you've found the right one, look at that tree to find the improvement by the other DNG inhabitant, whose name I've forgotten. Please do me a favor if you find it, and repost it here. I apparently have lost the software (probably a small shellscript). SteveT Steve Litt Autumn 2020 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times http://www.troubleshooters.com/thrive ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan Made The List
On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 11:26:20 -0700 tom wrote: > Ubuntu is second on their best list? More like second worst Linux > distro still in active development. Ubuntu provides the very real need of providing training wheels to the new user of Linux. Also, its hardware recognition is legendary. It's a darn shame Ubuntu chose to stick with Debian during the systemd debacle, but Ubuntu really does provide a needed service. That being said, the people on this list are already past the point of needing training wheels, so Ubuntu is of little interest to them. SteveT Steve Litt Autumn 2020 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times http://www.troubleshooters.com/thrive ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Fwd: Systemd as tragedy
Hi Steve Is this what you are looking for? Ozi -- Forwarded message - From: Steve Litt Date: Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 1:41 PM Subject: Re: [DNG] Systemd as tragedy To: On Wed, 30 Jan 2019 16:38:28 -1000 Joel Roth via Dng wrote: > On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 12:19:44AM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote: > > Might interest someone: > > > > https://lwn.net/Articles/777595/ > > > > [Front] Posted Jan 28, 2019 20:05 UTC (Mon) by corbet > > > > His attempt to cast that story for the > > pleasure of his audience resulted in a sympathetic and nuanced look > > at a turbulent chapter in the history of the Linux system. > > Hard to believe I listened to the same talk Corbet > is describing. What I heard was a propaganda piece, > finding reasons to sell the systemd approach > to BSD conference attendees. > > To Benno Rice, the tragedy is the pathetic opposition > to what he construes as the inevitable forces of > progress and rationality. I watched the following video of Benno Rice's presentation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AeWu1fZ7bY This presentation is despicable. He's taken every the same tired flawed arguments from Poettering's writings, and filed off the patented Poettering nasty haughtiness so it sounds, well, rational. But it is still founded on Poettering's original fallacies. And if Rice is even 1/4 as smart as he appears to be, he knows darn well this stuff is false. +++ Note: Rice refers many times to "rc". That's what he calls the BSD init system, or at least the part spawned by PID1. +++ 17:57 The king of all this video's fallacies occurs at 17:57, where he "refutes" "objection" "It's bloated and monolithic." He trots out Poettering's old refutation that systemd is made from many binaries, and he says it all fits together to deliver a "system layer" for Linux. Most intelligent Linux users have rebutted such nonsense: Here's my rebuttal, in cartoon form: http://troubleshooters.com/linux/systemd/lol_systemd.htm Lot's of component binaries, but every single one of them requires an incredibly complex (and therefore error prone) interface, which in turn almost completely eliminates interchangeable parts, making repairability much more difficult and limiting opportunities to DIY. I recently heard a quote on NPR radio that 50 years ago you could start an auto repair shop with a lift and a couple hundred dollars of tools, but now it takes a million dollars of diagnostic equipment. This is the cost of complexity. Of course, with cars, this complexity is partially necessary because to raise MPG (Miles Per Gallon) you need a computer to micromanage timing and amount of spark, air, fuel, and how they interact. I know of no similar necessity with computers. Systemd forces more of your management and repair to be outsourced to a specialty house with the right tools and knowledge, instead of repairing it in-house with interchangeable parts and the test points those parts introduce. [LITT'S NOTE: I say this in spite of the snazzy layer of meters and test points which systemd bestows after epoxying off your real OS functionality] Not good for the computer's owner, very good for those specialty houses, of which Redhat leads the pack. The fact that systemd is a grossly entangled monolith of custom-made pieces incompatible with pieces not made by the systemd folks is reason enough to stay way away from systemd. 8:33 "What the traditional rc system really doesn't do is automated service management. You can bring in other tools to do that like runit or supervisord or other things, but that is bringing in third party stuff that thinks a bit differently to the way that everything else does, and so you kinda need to [stutter] it's this other notion of bringing in other things that you suddenly have to think of the way it thinks, the way your servicing manager thinks, and various other things, which again --- we kinda get used to, like if you pick runit and install it you kinda get used to the way runit thinks, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the impedence mismatch between what runit does and what rc does is good." Wow, where to start? He first names runit (and supervisord) as doing the "automated service management" as well as systemd does. But then, to make monstrosity systemd look better than solid and simple runit (and s6 and daemontools, which he forgot), he invents an "impedance mismatch" between runit and rc to downgrade runit. I have a BSEE degree, I know what impedance mismatch is, and I can tell you the only way you get an "impedance mismatch" within software is if you're using a circuit emulation program. Reminds me of guys who go around trying to impress women by injecting, in worldly fashion, words like "entropy" and "energy" in discussions of day to day life. Rice really should have left the pseudo-science at home, with his flat earth and "smoking
Re: [DNG] Danger: Debian POSIX hostility
Hi, On 16/9/20 20:30, Steve Litt wrote: On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 09:53:14 +0200 "Dr. Nikolaus Klepp" wrote: Anno domini 2020 Wed, 16 Sep 02:11:57 -0400 Steve Litt scripsit: In addition, I don't see why Unix design isn't a good fit for modern demands. Edward and Aitor have already made do-one-thing-and-do-it-well graphical automounters that, as far as I know, depend on neither systemd nor dbus. I once posted, on this list, a thumb drive plugin detector/mounter, and somebody else on the list improved on it. Sorry, I must have missed that. Do you have a link to the software? nik No, sorry. Best way to find it is to search posts from Steve Litt body-containing the string "inotify". Once you've found the right one, look at that tree to find the improvement by the other DNG inhabitant, whose name I've forgotten. Please do me a favor if you find it, and repost it here. I apparently have lost the software (probably a small shellscript). SteveT Amounter, maybe? https://github.com/stevelitt/amounter Aitor. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Danger: Debian POSIX hostility
On 16/9/20 22:15, aitor wrote: Hi, On 16/9/20 20:30, Steve Litt wrote: On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 09:53:14 +0200 "Dr. Nikolaus Klepp" wrote: Anno domini 2020 Wed, 16 Sep 02:11:57 -0400 Steve Litt scripsit: In addition, I don't see why Unix design isn't a good fit for modern demands. Edward and Aitor have already made do-one-thing-and-do-it-well graphical automounters that, as far as I know, depend on neither systemd nor dbus. I once posted, on this list, a thumb drive plugin detector/mounter, and somebody else on the list improved on it. Sorry, I must have missed that. Do you have a link to the software? nik No, sorry. Best way to find it is to search posts from Steve Litt body-containing the string "inotify". Once you've found the right one, look at that tree to find the improvement by the other DNG inhabitant, whose name I've forgotten. Please do me a favor if you find it, and repost it here. I apparently have lost the software (probably a small shellscript). SteveT Amounter, maybe? https://github.com/stevelitt/amounter Aitor. huh! My clock... I've just reinstalled the system (after an upgrade to Chimaera) and i forgot to run "dpkg-reconfigure tzdata" ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Danger: Debian POSIX hostility
On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 14:49:19 +0200 Tito via Dng wrote among other things: |we should team up with other distributions that are no-systemd, |e.g pclinuxos (but there are others debian based) which have resolved |this problems already having various flavors of full-fledged DEs. antiX has a great Debian-testing distro using runit with jwm, icewm, or fluxbox. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Danger: Debian POSIX hostility
On 2020-09-16 17:53, Larry De Coste via Dng wrote: On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 14:49:19 +0200 Tito via Dng wrote among other things: |we should team up with other distributions that are no-systemd, |e.g pclinuxos (but there are others debian based) which have resolved |this problems already having various flavors of full-fledged DEs. antiX has a great Debian-testing distro using runit with jwm, icewm, or fluxbox. FYI . . . the person who maintains antix is on the dev1galaxy forum almost every day so there is already some cross-pollination happening. golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan Made The List
Well I'm the best at making farts, if that count for anything. On 16/09/20 20:38, Antony Stone wrote: > "Best" and "worst" are horribly subjective terms, and if you read the wording > at the top of that article, you'll see that they confuse "best" with "most > popular". signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] dynamic resolver configuration [Was: Danger: Debian POSIX hostility]
On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 12:40:18 -0700 Ian Zimmerman wrote: > On 2020-09-16 02:11, Steve Litt wrote: > > > Speaking of Netowrk manager, am I the only one who hates it messing > > with /etc/resolv.conf? You know what I'd like? I'd like > > /etc/resolv.conf to be a symlink to one of many files, such as > > resolv.dhcp, which *could* be modified by the network manager, and > > all sorts of others that can be switched in and out by a > > shellscript. Most folks would just use the symlink to resolv.dhcp, > > but folks like us could actually put our own unbound on our laptops > > and use a resolv.unbound or something like that. > > The resolvconf package already does something like this, and it _can_ > be utilized by user scripts, though it is not very well documented > and, maybe even worse, not very well "promoted". Also, you can > achieve a similar effect by running dnsmasq with a few simple scripts > on top, because the "upstream" dnsmasq resolver file is configurable. > > But when I think about the normal way of resolver configuration > I feel, for once, some sympathy for Len^H^H^H the one whose name shall > not be said here. > on an IPv6 network you don't need DHCP for autoconfiguration of IP and DNS. Just run rdnssd and it will statelessly grab the resolver and configure a unique publicly routable IP address. -- / Kiss me, Kate, we will be married o' \ | Sunday.| || | -- William Shakespeare, "The Taming of | \ the Shrew" / \ \ /\ /\ //\\_//\\ \_ _// / / * * \/^^^] \_\O/_/[ ] / \_[ / \ \_ / / [ [ / \/ _/ _[ [ \ /_/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
