Re: [DNG] Educating people (Was: One week into Devuan 2.0 ASCII -- Some stats)

[Jaromil]

dear Katolaz

On Thu, 21 Jun 2018, KatolaZ wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 11:58:56PM +0100, Simon Hobson wrote:
> > I think you missed the point.
> > 
> > All I’m suggesting is that on the download page there are the
> > AMD64 images first, then a note giving very basic suggestions not
> > to use i[3-6]86 images unless you need to AND PROVIDE LINKS TO
> > SOME GOOD WRITEUPS. It’s not trying to force people to do anything
> > - just give them a pointer to information that (apparently) quite
> > a few people aren’t aware of.
> 
> I think you probably missed the point here. believe it or not, there
> are genuinely thousands of people who use i686 images because they
> happen to have i686 machines. The percentage of those in Devuan is not
> that different from the percentage seen in Debian.
> 
> I can't see any good reason not to use an i686 image if you have an
> i686 CPU...

from what I understand Simon is saying here, he is not being
understood really. What he is suggesting is to add a small
documentation text that, in case one doesn't knows what to choose,
mentions what is the most common choice in case of most common setups
(today is clearly i686) and when/why to choose otherwise, also linking
to simple explanations that may help orienting people to choose their
installation medium according to their target hardware.

I believe this can be a useful addition and wish someone preferably
native in english language can contribute it.

ciao

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Re: [DNG] When 128?

[Jaromil]

dear Adam,

On Wed, 20 Jun 2018, Adam Borowski wrote:

> x86 on the other hand has variable size of opcodes, 1 to 15 bytes.
> This, by the way, is the biggest flaw of x86 instruction set: the
> rules to split code into opcodes are extremely hairy, requiring all
> the decoding work to be done twice if you want a pipeline.

Wholeheartedly agreeing with you here.

Sorry if I interrupd (nice thread!) but couldn't resist to nod louder.

ciao

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Re: [DNG] When 128?

[Martin Steigerwald]

Dear Adam, dear Jaromil, dear listeners,

Jaromil - 21.06.18, 09:12:
> On Wed, 20 Jun 2018, Adam Borowski wrote:
> > x86 on the other hand has variable size of opcodes, 1 to 15 bytes.
> > This, by the way, is the biggest flaw of x86 instruction set: the
> > rules to split code into opcodes are extremely hairy, requiring all
> > the decoding work to be done twice if you want a pipeline.
> 
> Wholeheartedly agreeing with you here.
> 
> Sorry if I interrupd (nice thread!) but couldn't resist to nod louder.

From what I learned and read over the years, just about any other CPU 
architecture other than than x86 is both conceptually and technically 
more sound than x86.

I started with C-64 (6510) and Amiga (68000 up to 68060, then PowerPC) 
computers. All three have a quite clean and simple machine code from 
what I can tell. You could even see it in assembly listings. Granted 
6510 is quite limited with amount of registers, but simple and clean it 
is. Also regarding software: AmigaOS was so beyond MS-DOS and early 
Windows stuff that was available on IBM-PC compatibles that I could 
start with a long, long list about what was better. Just about 
everything like true multi tasking, a hard disk partitioning scheme that 
actually made some sense instead of the MBR crap, multimedia before the 
word for it was born… you name it.

For whatever reason one of the CPU worst architectures and operating 
systems became standard. And from what I know the CPU architecture still 
carries most of the crap of the older days after Intel failed with 
Itanium AFAIK mostly for compatibility reasons as Windows did not run on 
it initially. So AMD continued the crap with a compatible 64-Bit 
standard, that Intel also adopted.

Our current standard computers are built on a mountain of legacy crap.

I follow RISC-V progress and I really like to buy a laptop with 
something like that.

Seeing what happens in Computer hardware space, I say:

It is time for true excellence again.

Time for people to make hardware not only in order to get money from 
customers… but for the joy of creating something that really delivers 
from the inside out. Capitalism did not help to improve the quality of 
hardware, just the quantity and the speed of it.

Ok, I am finished with my rant. In case you ever notice a truly open as 
in freedom RISC-V or other suitable architecture laptop or other small 
computer usable for NAS or so crowd funding project, maybe also ARM64 or 
PowerPC, please tell me. Even without Intel Management Engine and with 
Coreboot, I´d rather not put money into an x86 based machine again. I 
eventually will anyway due to lack of alternatives, especially for 
laptops, but I´d rather not.

And of course I know: I can always choose to do something about it. For 
now I have other priorities, so I just stick with the hardware I 
currently use.

Thanks,
-- 
Martin


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Re: [DNG] Educating people (Was: One week into Devuan 2.0 ASCII -- Some stats)

[Alessandro Selli]

On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 at 08:41:18 +0200
KatolaZ  wrote:

> I think you probably missed the point here. believe it or not, there
> are genuinely thousands of people who use i686 images because they
> happen to have i686 machines. The percentage of those in Devuan is not
> that different from the percentage seen in Debian.
>
> I can't see any good reason not to use an i686 image if you have an
> i686 CPU...

  Right.  This is the reason because a lot of people download x86 images: all
those who still have 32bit hardware, they're installing GNU/Linux on it,
because it is the only current and maintained OS that runs on a platform that
proprietary, mainstream OSes abandoned years ago.

  32bit Intel compatible platforms are not going to disappear soon as several
embedded, specialized appliances, networking devices, IoT devices,
mediacenters and so forth are still being produced based on 32bit processors.


Alessandro
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Re: [DNG] devuan from scratch?

[Didier Kryn]

Le 21/06/2018 à 08:51, Rick Moen a écrit :

My bit of snark was marred by omitting the URL (drat):


Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):


They're time wasters for folks like you with the intelligence and Linux
knowledge to do a chroot install. I have a little less than the
requisite intelligence and Linux knowledge, so for me, having to trial
and error installer programs a couple times is faster and less work
than doing a chroot install.

Another problem is that, except for Arch, Gentoo and Funtoo, most
distros have inadequate documentation on their chroot installs.

Hello!  I'm not actually the Rick Moen you know, but rather a visiting
historic Rick Moen from the year 1998.  I'd like to demostrate the use
of the sort of improved search engine that Google, Inc. launched
commercially last year in my timeline (1997).  Before that, it was a
demo over at googol.stanford.edu .  But enough about that.  I used this
newfangled Google Search Engine, and typed:

debootstrap chroot install

One of the first hits on the first page of results appears to be a
step-by-step HOWTO document that's exactly what you're looking for.

That would be:
https://austinjadams.com/blog/install-debian-with-debootstrap/

    Yep, it's that simple (-: I'm not sure he hasn't forgotten 
grub-install at the end though.


            Didier

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Re: [DNG] When 128?

[Alessandro Selli]

Il giorno Wed, 20 Jun 2018 20:11:50 -0700
Rick Moen  ha scritto:

> Quoting terryc (ter...@woa.com.au):
>
>> On Wed, 20 Jun 2018 15:16:28 -0400
>> Steve Litt  wrote:
>>   
>>> There was a discussion of whether to retain 32 bit, and that brought
>>> up another question in my mind: When will we have 128 bit computing?  
>>
>> Give off. Its taken 40 years for me to be finally able to buy a 64bit
>> computer. I want to be able to at least enjoy 64bit for a decade.  
>
> Working hard at fully exercising that 16-exabyte (16,000,000,000 GB)
> address space, are we?

  Isn't that going to be realm of qubit quantum computing?
I do not see many major silicon company investing in 128 bit general
purpose CPU (I actually know none that does), rather a lot are heavily
investing in quantum computing.


Alessandro

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Re: [DNG] When 128?

[Didier Kryn]

Le 21/06/2018 à 09:12, Jaromil a écrit :

dear Adam,

On Wed, 20 Jun 2018, Adam Borowski wrote:


x86 on the other hand has variable size of opcodes, 1 to 15 bytes.
This, by the way, is the biggest flaw of x86 instruction set: the
rules to split code into opcodes are extremely hairy, requiring all
the decoding work to be done twice if you want a pipeline.

Wholeheartedly agreeing with you here.

Sorry if I interrupd (nice thread!) but couldn't resist to nod louder.


    Yes, but Devuan is only available for amd64, i386 and Arm!

    The reason, of course is that Powerpc (which is a much more modern 
arch) isn't supported anymore even by Debian as an official arch. This 
is due in part to the fact that Powerpc has exploded into a large set of 
incompatible arches, and in part to the lack of powerpc-based computers 
available to the general public.


    If there was an affordable Powerpc-based desktop, no doubt this one 
would be supported. But Freescale focusses on industrial SBCs and IBM on 
big servers, and not only do they steadily diverge, but both have 
incompatible arches within their own set of products.


        Didier



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Re: [DNG] When 128?

[KatolaZ]

On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 11:17:51AM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote:
> Le 21/06/2018 à 09:12, Jaromil a écrit :
> > dear Adam,
> > 
> > On Wed, 20 Jun 2018, Adam Borowski wrote:
> > 
> > > x86 on the other hand has variable size of opcodes, 1 to 15 bytes.
> > > This, by the way, is the biggest flaw of x86 instruction set: the
> > > rules to split code into opcodes are extremely hairy, requiring all
> > > the decoding work to be done twice if you want a pipeline.
> > Wholeheartedly agreeing with you here.
> > 
> > Sorry if I interrupd (nice thread!) but couldn't resist to nod louder.
> 
>     Yes, but Devuan is only available for amd64, i386 and Arm!
> 
>     The reason, of course is that Powerpc (which is a much more modern arch)
> isn't supported anymore even by Debian as an official arch. This is due in
> part to the fact that Powerpc has exploded into a large set of incompatible
> arches, and in part to the lack of powerpc-based computers available to the
> general public.
> 
>     If there was an affordable Powerpc-based desktop, no doubt this one
> would be supported. But Freescale focusses on industrial SBCs and IBM on big
> servers, and not only do they steadily diverge, but both have incompatible
> arches within their own set of products.
> 

Well, not all hope is lost on that front. Devuan has recently got
access to a powerful ppc build host. More news to come soon. Stay
tuned ;)

HND

KatolaZ

-- 
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[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
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Re: [DNG] When 128?

[Didier Kryn]

Le 21/06/2018 à 09:37, Martin Steigerwald a écrit :

 From what I learned and read over the years, just about any other CPU
architecture other than than x86 is both conceptually and technically
more sound than x86.

I started with C-64 (6510) and Amiga (68000 up to 68060, then PowerPC)
computers. All three have a quite clean and simple machine code from
what I can tell. You could even see it in assembly listings. Granted
6510 is quite limited with amount of registers, but simple and clean it
is. Also regarding software: AmigaOS was so beyond MS-DOS and early
Windows stuff that was available on IBM-PC compatibles that I could
start with a long, long list about what was better. Just about
everything like true multi tasking, a hard disk partitioning scheme that
actually made some sense instead of the MBR crap, multimedia before the
word for it was born… you name it.

For whatever reason one of the CPU worst architectures and operating
systems became standard. And from what I know the CPU architecture still
carries most of the crap of the older days after Intel failed with
Itanium AFAIK mostly for compatibility reasons as Windows did not run on
it initially. So AMD continued the crap with a compatible 64-Bit
standard, that Intel also adopted.

Our current standard computers are built on a mountain of legacy crap.


    I started with Motorolla's 6809, around 1981. For the first time 
there was a cpu which allowd indexed addressing of instructions, which 
provides native capability for PIC. Microware (not Microsoft!) delivered 
OS9, based on that, in which the C compiler produced PIC by default.


    Apple built their personal computers, even before the first 
MacIntosh, around Motorolla's 6800 family. This was the time IBM 
realized they were about to loose the leadership in computers because of 
personal computers. They decided to buid their own and hired a 
manufacurer, Intel, which was the competitor of Motorolla and a crappy 
software maker.




I follow RISC-V progress and I really like to buy a laptop with
something like that.

Seeing what happens in Computer hardware space, I say:

It is time for true excellence again.


    Let's hope (-:

            Didier

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Re: [DNG] When 128?

[ael]

On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 09:37:26AM +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> It is time for true excellence again.

It was on offer for several years, but too few understood: the
transputer family.

ael

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Re: [DNG] When 128?

[Didier Kryn]

Le 21/06/2018 à 11:31, KatolaZ a écrit :

On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 11:17:51AM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote:

Le 21/06/2018 à 09:12, Jaromil a écrit :

dear Adam,

On Wed, 20 Jun 2018, Adam Borowski wrote:


x86 on the other hand has variable size of opcodes, 1 to 15 bytes.
This, by the way, is the biggest flaw of x86 instruction set: the
rules to split code into opcodes are extremely hairy, requiring all
the decoding work to be done twice if you want a pipeline.

Wholeheartedly agreeing with you here.

Sorry if I interrupd (nice thread!) but couldn't resist to nod louder.

     Yes, but Devuan is only available for amd64, i386 and Arm!

     The reason, of course is that Powerpc (which is a much more modern arch)
isn't supported anymore even by Debian as an official arch. This is due in
part to the fact that Powerpc has exploded into a large set of incompatible
arches, and in part to the lack of powerpc-based computers available to the
general public.

     If there was an affordable Powerpc-based desktop, no doubt this one
would be supported. But Freescale focusses on industrial SBCs and IBM on big
servers, and not only do they steadily diverge, but both have incompatible
arches within their own set of products.


Well, not all hope is lost on that front. Devuan has recently got
access to a powerful ppc build host. More news to come soon. Stay
tuned ;)


    Great news! I would have enjoyed if I were still in activity, with 
the possibility to play with SBCs or big servers, but now I belong to 
the general public and I can't see any desktop/laptop not based on 
Intel's crap at the horizon. But it's good for others.


        Didier

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Re: [DNG] When 128?

[Didier Kryn]

Le 21/06/2018 à 11:34, ael a écrit :

On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 09:37:26AM +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:

It is time for true excellence again.

It was on offer for several years, but too few understood: the
transputer family.

ael


    A guy of my lab used them a lot for parallel computing, in the 
90's. AFAIR they were killed by IBM with the complicity of CERN.


            Didier

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Re: [DNG] Which desktops are available in Devuan?

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Wed, 20 Jun 2018 20:39:51 -0700, Rick wrote in message 
<20180621033951.gg32...@linuxmafia.com>:

> Quoting Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI (ren...@olgiati-in-paraguay.org):
> 
> > On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 22:16:10 +0200
> > "J. Fahrner"  wrote:
> >   
> > > Bunsenlab has also a GUI program for adjusting fonts for Gtk.  
> > 
> > Where can one find it ?  
> 
> I'm guessing the intended reference might be to lxappearance, which is
> actually from LXDE but was featured by BunsenLabs Linux.
> 
> Nice page that talks about this in connection to Openbox:
> https://friendsofdevuan.org/doku.php/devuan-vua-installing3-openbox-fbpanel-related

...where: ...
https://friendsofdevuan.org/doku.php/devuan-vua-installing3-openbox-fbpanel-related#enable_deb-multimedia

...ends with: "IMPORTANT NOTE in this case we are using the Devuan
Jessie version and so enable Devuan jessie repository."

..for ascii, do we stay with the jessie-backports advice?


-- 
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Re: [DNG] ASCII installation static IP problem

[Olaf Meeuwissen]

Hi Don,

Don Wright writes:

> Olaf Meeuwissen wrote:
>
>>Installing a desktop, by default, pulls in wicd (or network-manager).
>>You can prevent this by using apt-get's --no-install-recommend option.
>
> Not an option within the de??an installer - which was the context of the
> original post.

I understand your point.  Yet, you stated in your original post

>>> Installed ASCII using Expert (text) from devuan_ascii_2.0.0_amd64_dvd-1.iso.
>>> I'm very familiar with the Debian Installer interface from years of using
>>> it.

Considering that, I think this is an option, even though it is not
necessarily an easy one.  After you've configured the mirror and proxy
settings for APT, execute a shell, chroot into the installer's target
directory, from memory that's /target, and run the command.

>>Whether either package blatantly ignores your static IP configuration
>>from when you installed, I cannot tell for sure (zapped wicd) but I
>>vaguely remember that you can tell wicd to leave certain interfaces
>>unmolested.  That may even be its default behaviour for interfaces that
>>are configured in /etc/network/interfaces.
>>
> [Steve Litt]
>>>I would sure find this behavior surprising.
>>
>>If wicd breaks static IP address configurations out-of-the-box I'd be
>>surprised too.  I've mainly used it in DHCP settings.  On my server's
>>wicd was never installed so any static IP configurations just worked as
>>intended.
>
> However surprising to any of you, this is my testimony. A statically
> configured interface present in /etc/network/interfaces was ignored **as
> installed by Devuan ASCII.iso**. Removing wicd fixed the problem. What other
> conclusion can reasonably be drawn but that wicd is the one doing the
> ignoring?

My use of 'surprised' meant to imply that I consider it a bug (in the
'WTF' category).  Understatement didn't make it through :-(( and in
hindsight I should have been clearer.  Sorry.

>># Veteran Unix Administrator's are free to cobble together their own
>># solution and `apt purge wicd` goes a long ways towards that end ;-P
>
> But that's only an option after the fault, which only shows up after
> restarting. If the device is not within easy reach, how will you get a
> command line at the random assigned IP address in the first place?

Although I haven't found myself in that situation, I'd say one of:

 - not :-(
 - with a lot of effort
 - by using the hostname (assuming that your DHCP server's register
   their leases with your DNS servers)

> Background: My situation, which you so deride,

I did not mean to deride your situation.
Apologies if my follow-up sounded that way.

> is a test install of a server with changing products *and management
> tools* which is where the desktop comes in. When a configuration is
> finally settled upon, the server will be wiped and reinstalled in a
> production configuration without desktop as all my other servers have
> been, and the management tools installed on a management
> workstation. Until then the churn will be limited to this one system.

May I suggest you do your test install in a setup that more closely
resembles your production configuration.  That is, test installs for
both the server and the management workstation.  You could do either or
both on a suitable VM that runs someplace you have physical access.

Hope this helps,
--
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Re: [DNG] pgcli bash completion script included in the official package

[Antonio Trkdz.tab]

Hi Adam,

Thank you for your reply.
I think that the pgcli people are more concerned on features of their tool
itself.
My script feels to me more akin to a surrounding enhancement, rather than a
core feature, hence the complete lack of interest from really upstream.
Also the repo is completely packaging agnostic it looks to me, leaving to
the various distros package mantainers to deal with issues like mine.

I already contacted the debian mantainer, who said it will be happy to
include it and kindly pointed me to the direction of a wishlist bugreport.

That said I will send it to debian bugreport, thanks also to your list of
reasons that make this a better choice.

Cheers!
Antonio

On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 12:32 PM Adam Borowski  wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 07:52:51PM +0200, Antonio Trkdz.tab wrote:
> > I wrote a bash completion script for the pgcli utility, a command line
> > interface for Postgres - https://www.pgcli.com/
> >
> > I would like to get it included in the official package.
> > Shall I report a wishlist bug for Devuan or for Debian, so that the
> former
> > can get it (in case) from upstream?
>
> The very best way is to have it accepted in the real upstream (ie, pgcli
> guys).  Your pull request should accomplish it -- but I see it hasn't been
> responded to in 19 days.  Not sure why -- is the Travis failure real?  If
> not, you might want to ping or otherwise contact upstream.
>
> If that fails, it's a lot better to file a bug on Debian rather than
> Devuan:
> * Devuan concentrates on desystemdizing packages, any package to maintain
>   draws away from that task
> * any diff from Debian would need to be carried for a long time,
>   complicating future updates
> * the package maintainer (in Debian) has a lot better knowledge of it
> * you get orders of magnitude more users (even if some of them are
>   systemd-using heretics...), which means more potential contributors
>
>
> Meow!
> --
> ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ There's an easy way to tell toy operating systems from real ones.
> ⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ Just look at how their shipped fonts display U+1F52B, this makes
> ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ the intended audience obvious.  It's also interesting to see OSes
> ⠈⠳⣄ go back and forth wrt their intended target.
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[DNG] accessibility for new blind user

[Hendrik Boom]

I've got a friend down the hall considering migrating from Windows to 
Linux.  Ordinarily I'd sy no problem and advise him accordingly.

But he is blind and I am not.  He will have toe doubble challenge of 
figuring out Linux and at the saame time figuring out its accessiility 
subsystems.

I have no idea what might work for him.  Any ideas?

(He probably doesn't know or care about systemd either way.)

-- hendrik

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Re: [DNG] accessibility for new blind user

[KatolaZ]

On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 05:04:37AM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> I've got a friend down the hall considering migrating from Windows to 
> Linux.  Ordinarily I'd sy no problem and advise him accordingly.
> 
> But he is blind and I am not.  He will have toe doubble challenge of 
> figuring out Linux and at the saame time figuring out its accessiility 
> subsystems.
> 
> I have no idea what might work for him.  Any ideas?
> 
> (He probably doesn't know or care about systemd either way.)
> 

Hendrik,

I would warmly suggest your friend to contact the linux-speakup
project:

  http://linux-speakup.org/

That's a bunch of cool people who have been writing quality software
for blind and visually impaired users under GNU/Linux. They also have
a quite active mailing-list.

In Devuan, we have the minimal-live project which provides a
console-based setup focused on accessibility. I know that there are
several other distributions specifically tailored around the needs of
blind and visually-impaired users.

HTH

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] When 128?

[dan pridgeon]

  From: Martin Steigerwald 
 To: dng@lists.dyne.org 
 Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2018 2:37 AM
 Subject: Re: [DNG] When 128?
   

>From what I learned and read over the years, just about any other CPU 
architecture other than than x86 is both conceptually and technically 
more sound than x86.

I started with C-64 (6510) and Amiga (68000 up to 68060, then PowerPC) 
computers. All three have a quite clean and simple machine code from 
what I can tell. You could even see it in assembly listings. Granted 
6510 is quite limited with amount of registers, but simple and clean it 
is. Also regarding software: AmigaOS was so beyond MS-DOS and early 
Windows stuff that was available on IBM-PC compatibles that I could 
start with a long, long list about what was better. Just about 
everything like true multi tasking, a hard disk partitioning scheme that 
actually made some sense instead of the MBR crap, multimedia before the 
word for it was born… you name it.

For whatever reason one of the CPU worst architectures and operating 
systems became standard. 

And of course I know: I can always choose to do something about it. For 
now I have other priorities, so I just stick with the hardware I 
currently use.

Thanks,
-- 
Martin
___
The reason it became standard is that when IBM decided to get into the 
PCbusiness, they only used parts that were "Qualified" through their Parts 
Qualification Labwhich guaranteed that they would all play together nicely.  
They made a choice to make it all 
'Open Source'.  They published the diagrams of all the pieces, and they 
published the operating system.  The world quickly picked that up and 
re-packaged everything and 
began to compete with Big Blue without having to do any of  the hard work.
Thus it became a standard fairly quickly.  Its success, I think, is spelled 
'Documentation'.


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Re: [DNG] accessibility for new blind user

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 15:35:31 +0200, KatolaZ wrote in message 
<20180621133531.jq5a4lhwzaxbb...@katolaz.homeunix.net>:

> On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 05:04:37AM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> > I've got a friend down the hall considering migrating from Windows
> > to Linux.  Ordinarily I'd sy no problem and advise him accordingly.
> > 
> > But he is blind and I am not.  He will have toe doubble challenge
> > of figuring out Linux and at the saame time figuring out its
> > accessiility subsystems.
> > 
> > I have no idea what might work for him.  Any ideas?
> > 
> > (He probably doesn't know or care about systemd either way.)
> >   
> 
> Hendrik,
> 
> I would warmly suggest your friend to contact the linux-speakup
> project:
> 
>   http://linux-speakup.org/
> 
> That's a bunch of cool people who have been writing quality software
> for blind and visually impaired users under GNU/Linux. They also have
> a quite active mailing-list.
> 
> In Devuan, we have the minimal-live project which provides a
> console-based setup focused on accessibility. I know that there are
> several other distributions specifically tailored around the needs of
> blind and visually-impaired users.

..boot any recent knoppix Live usb|dvd|cd with: "adriane ":
http://www.knopper.net/knoppix-adriane/index-en.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knoppix#Adriane_Knoppix

..and with Alioth down, Klaus Knopper may want an alternative to
http://debian-knoppix.alioth.debian.org/ for his sources listed as
"Sources for the special components of the KNOPPIX-CD" in
http://www.knopper.net/knoppix-info/index-en.html

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] accessibility for new blind user

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 17:49:37 +0200, Arnt wrote in message 
<20180621174937.37a2416c@d44>:

> On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 15:35:31 +0200, KatolaZ wrote in message 
> <20180621133531.jq5a4lhwzaxbb...@katolaz.homeunix.net>:
> 
> > On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 05:04:37AM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote:  
> > > I've got a friend down the hall considering migrating from Windows
> > > to Linux.  Ordinarily I'd sy no problem and advise him
> > > accordingly.
> > > 
> > > But he is blind and I am not.  He will have toe doubble challenge
> > > of figuring out Linux and at the saame time figuring out its
> > > accessiility subsystems.
> > > 
> > > I have no idea what might work for him.  Any ideas?
> > > 
> > > (He probably doesn't know or care about systemd either way.)
> > > 
> > 
> > Hendrik,
> > 
> > I would warmly suggest your friend to contact the linux-speakup
> > project:
> > 
> >   http://linux-speakup.org/
> > 
> > That's a bunch of cool people who have been writing quality software
> > for blind and visually impaired users under GNU/Linux. They also
> > have a quite active mailing-list.
> > 
> > In Devuan, we have the minimal-live project which provides a
> > console-based setup focused on accessibility. I know that there are
> > several other distributions specifically tailored around the needs
> > of blind and visually-impaired users.  
> 
> ..boot any recent knoppix Live usb|dvd|cd with: "adriane ":
> http://www.knopper.net/knoppix-adriane/index-en.html
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knoppix#Adriane_Knoppix
> 
> ..and with Alioth down, Klaus Knopper may want an alternative to
> http://debian-knoppix.alioth.debian.org/ for his sources listed as
> "Sources for the special components of the KNOPPIX-CD" in
> http://www.knopper.net/knoppix-info/index-en.html

..and then I found it uses systemd:
https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=knoppix

..last non-systemd knoppix is 7.2.0 down at e.g. 
http://ftp.knoppix.nl/os/Linux/distr/knoppix/ 
...if you want to upgrade-n-remaster to e.g. "8.3-devuan" 
http://knoppix.net/wiki/Knoppix_Remastering_Howto


-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] accessibility for new blind user

[Gregory Nowak]

On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 03:35:31PM +0200, KatolaZ wrote:
> I would warmly suggest your friend to contact the linux-speakup
> project:
> 
>   http://linux-speakup.org/
> 
> That's a bunch of cool people who have been writing quality software
> for blind and visually impaired users under GNU/Linux. They also have
> a quite active mailing-list.

Your friend might also want to join the orca mailing list:


There are a couple more GNU/Linux accessibility lists out there, but
the speakup and orca lists should be enough. There is also vinux,
which is ubuntu based, and specifically meant for blind users:


Greg


-- 
web site: http://www.gregn.net
gpg public key: http://www.gregn.net/pubkey.asc
skype: gregn1
(authorization required, add me to your contacts list first)
If we haven't been in touch before, e-mail me before adding me to your contacts.

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Re: [DNG] devuan from scratch?

[Ozi Traveller]

I like this one

https://willhaley.com/blog/custom-debian-live-environment/

ozi

On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 6:32 PM, Didier Kryn  wrote:

> Le 21/06/2018 à 08:51, Rick Moen a écrit :
>
>> My bit of snark was marred by omitting the URL (drat):
>>
>> Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):
>>>
>>> They're time wasters for folks like you with the intelligence and Linux
 knowledge to do a chroot install. I have a little less than the
 requisite intelligence and Linux knowledge, so for me, having to trial
 and error installer programs a couple times is faster and less work
 than doing a chroot install.

 Another problem is that, except for Arch, Gentoo and Funtoo, most
 distros have inadequate documentation on their chroot installs.

>>> Hello!  I'm not actually the Rick Moen you know, but rather a visiting
>>> historic Rick Moen from the year 1998.  I'd like to demostrate the use
>>> of the sort of improved search engine that Google, Inc. launched
>>> commercially last year in my timeline (1997).  Before that, it was a
>>> demo over at googol.stanford.edu .  But enough about that.  I used this
>>> newfangled Google Search Engine, and typed:
>>>
>>> debootstrap chroot install
>>>
>>> One of the first hits on the first page of results appears to be a
>>> step-by-step HOWTO document that's exactly what you're looking for.
>>>
>> That would be:
>> https://austinjadams.com/blog/install-debian-with-debootstrap/
>>
>> Yep, it's that simple (-: I'm not sure he hasn't forgotten
> grub-install at the end though.
>
> Didier
>
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Re: [DNG] Educating people (Was: One week into Devuan 2.0 ASCII -- Some stats)

[Simon Hobson]

Jaromil  wrote:

> from what I understand Simon is saying here, he is not being
> understood really. What he is suggesting is to add a small
> documentation text that, in case one doesn't knows what to choose,
> mentions what is the most common choice in case of most common setups
> (today is clearly i686) and when/why to choose otherwise, also linking
> to simple explanations that may help orienting people to choose their
> installation medium according to their target hardware.

Yes indeed, that is exactly it.

I may have got some of my terms wrong since I've kinda lost track of what image 
runs on what hardware. As I mentioned in an earlier message, it's only recently 
that I got relatively new hardware at work and so was stuck on (IIRC) i386 
images (for the VMs) as the newest that would run on any of my hosts. It is my 
understanding (and I stand to be corrected) that "new" processors can all run 
amd64 images and that this would be the "default" choice of image unless you 
know you need something else.


Alessandro Selli  wrote:

> Right.  This is the reason because a lot of people download x86 images: all
> those who still have 32bit hardware, they're installing GNU/Linux on it,
> because it is the only current and maintained OS that runs on a platform that
> proprietary, mainstream OSes abandoned years ago.
> 
> 32bit Intel compatible platforms are not going to disappear soon as several
> embedded, specialized appliances, networking devices, IoT devices,
> mediacenters and so forth are still being produced based on 32bit processors.

Indeed, hence why no suggestion to remove the images - just to put a note in to 
point those who do not run "old" hardware to information to help them choose 
the right image for their kit.

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