Re: [DNG] Which is free, which is open source, et al.
hi William, thanks for your message :) its encouraging to read you. plus funny to read Devuan turning almost into a DonJuan :^D On Sat, 13 Jan 2018, William C Vaughan wrote: >From the perspective of a retired programmer/analyst, now >dilletante, you Dejuan folks are on the precipice of success. See >the forest over the trees, get your message out as an upstream >solution to Linux in the enterprise - from servers to employee >desktop/laptop solutions, there is no reason that systemd-free >Linux alternatives can’t supplant the Red Hat, etc., cabal. They >have MONEY, and that buys them exposure. My former employer, a >major university, has bought Red Hat support hook, line, and >sinker. You guys aren’t even on the radar. I very much agree with you, we have an opportunity and we should seize it "soonish". In most EU and US based organisations I believe enterprise-level ICT contracts will expire around 2019 and 2020 and will need to be renovated or may be changed. If we are consolidated by then, have a reasonable amount of money to reinvest in Devuan for entreprise level services (a 10% of the donations going to Debian would be enough to get started) and perhaps have our own certification... we can play the game at the table with these giants and be a palatable investment for people with old money who understand how fast tables can flip in ICT. There are also more sources of investment that can help us stand on our feet: sponsorships as well institutional projects that Dyne.org is doing and that are based on Devuan (see i.e. DECODEproject.eu) However *now* we must concentrate on quality and details, because our (still limited, as you say) audience doesn't cares about marketing speech, but about details and perfectionism. That's what we are doing and that's also what puts us an inch above all those saying you can use Debian without systemd and then "take care of the small details". After ASCII we need all to get out there and talk about Devuan to the people who can help it grow and likely also make a gain in doing so. I am confident this will work, we actually had already an amazing coverage all considered. Here in Amsterdam we are creating this year a limited responsibility company that may be able to provide some degree of entreprise level service to customers and some of its shares will be available to new aligned investors. We'll see. And certifications, again, I think they are quite important and there is nothing holding us from making a no-nonsense certification course in ... good'ol UNIX minimalism :^) ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Which is Free, Which is Open Source, is there any difference?
Regarding a new category and the proposed term: > Obfuscationware. > > New name for a new type of software that wasn't thought of a couple > decades ago: Otherwise free software with the intent and effect to > lessen our freedom to use our (other) software. > > I repeat: SystemD doesn't fit into current categories in the Free > Software spectrum. I wouldn't just place it in a new category - I would add a new dimension. So there isn't just a closed-source to free axis, but also how (and here I am not sure of the words yet) community integrated or random coder accessible it is. Now it is much easier to see the world just along a single line. Heck, many politicians try to trick people into that: Its either left or right but nothing else (why not also up-down, forward-backward ?). But the real world has many dimensions (maybe 11 in space time alone)... So code on the user-hostile end of this new axis has one or more of the following of symptoms: 1 * It rejects user-contributed patches outright (EWONTFIX) 2 * It bakes in policies - doesn't allow users to set their own 3 * It adds gratuitous changes, moves unnecessarily fast and deprecates working, useful code 4 * The investment needed to get up to speed makes it hard for people not working full-time on it to contribute 5x * The design objectives and configuration defaults suggest that it is not written with the best interest of its users and contributers in mind (There are other obstacles like certifications, membership fees, NDAs, citizenship, etc which might be deployed in future, but aren't common in the software that I care about yet). I think I can not only place systemd on that end, but also GNOME and many of the web-related protocols and implementations. Firefox has been particularly disappointing. So what words do we use for this axis ? Hackability, forkeability ? Contributer-hostile ? Actually there might be some words for points 1-5x needed too. I favour "churny" for point 3... regards marc ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Fosdem
Hi. I'm just wondering whether the Devuan project will have any presence at https://fosdem.org/2018/ to let people know about progress (or even existence)? Antony. -- 3 logicians walk into a bar. The bartender asks "Do you all want a drink?" The first logician says "I don't know." The second logician says "I don't know." The third logician says "Yes!" Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Controlling screen brightness
Le 13/01/2018 à 03:12, Gregory Nowak a écrit : On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 10:20:06AM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote: The brightness is controlled through 3 files in /sys/class/backlight/intel_backlight, named actual_brightness, brightness and max_brightness. The brightness can be controlled by writing to these files. But these files do not exist if xfce4-power-manager isn't installed. So it seems I need this package (or an equivalent in another DE) to be able to set a decent brightness. Hmmm, are you sure? I have a text only install of devuan Jessie on an external usb drive (no GUI at all), and these files do exist for me on that install when I use it on my laptop. Probably I made a mistake. Now, after removing xfce4-power-manager, xfce4-power-manager-data and xfce4-power-manager-plugins, the 3 files are still there. Thanks. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Fosdem
On Sat, 13 Jan 2018, Antony Stone wrote: > Hi. I'm just wondering whether the Devuan project will have any > presence at https://fosdem.org/2018/ to let people know about > progress (or even existence)? we have a low-key presence which was facilitated by Loic Dachary, to whom I'm very grateful. it is not about Devuan per-se, but heads.dyne.org (our amnesiac live-cd derivative) and will be presented by parazyd. I'll try to be there as well. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Which is free, which is open source, et al.
Hi William, On 13/01/18 01:18, William C Vaughan wrote: Lurker here. [cut] Following this stuff for a couple of years, playing with Dejuan The right term is DevJuan :) and its downstream variants with some success, some failures, but always interesting. I’m very empathetic to Steve Litt’s feelings on the systemd stuff, and am particularly inspired to reply to the latest missive on the possibility that Red Hat’s darling Mr. Poettering is primarily motivated to make Red Hat Enterprise lots of money in offering paid support of systemd Linux operations. As per politics, religion, educational prerogatives, and historical perspectives as officially endorsed, in the case of Linux and systemd, FOLLOW THE MONEY TRAIL. That nearly always works in tracing the sources of derision. [cut] From the perspective of a retired programmer/analyst, now dilletante, you Dejuan folks are on the precipice of success. Again, the right term is DevJuan (in spanish) See the forest over the trees, get your message out as an upstream solution to Linux in the enterprise - from servers to employee desktop/laptop solutions, there is no reason that systemd-free Linux alternatives can’t supplant the Red Hat, etc., cabal. They have MONEY, and that buys them exposure. My former employer, a major university, has bought Red Hat support hook, line, and sinker. You guys aren’t even on the radar. I only am aware of your position and offerings as an old fart hobbyist with time to explore. I wish you well. How can you compete with the power that is money that propagates Red Hat, Canonical, et al? That’s your main dilima right now, perhaps on the threshold of eclipsing your system development tasks. Cheers. -- Move from rim to hub; know the wheel. - Cheers, Aitor. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Backup plans: was Which is free, which is open source, et al.
On Sat, 13 Jan 2018 07:40:42 + KatolaZ wrote: > I don't see how what I said could make you considering getting back to > Debian, TBH :) It's very good to have backup plans, but choosing > Devuan is about going *forward*, not backward. YMMV though. The only reason I could imagine to go back from Devuan to Debian would be to avail ones self of SystemD. > > My personal distro backup plan (i.e., what I would do if Devuan would > not work fine for me at any given point in the future) consists in > putting some more effort in making Devuan work better. And then a bit > more effort, if needed. And then a bit more, if that was not > enough. And then a bit more, if required. And then a bit more. And so > on :) In my opinion, the preceding paragraph expresses a Primary Plan, not a backup plan. Most grassroots projects: Projects not funded or managed by some soulless conglomerate handing out developerships as career perks, consist of developers who use the software so often and so hard that they can't afford for the software to be anything but the best. I know that's how everyone in the VimOutliner project felt (and I think still feels, regardless of the \\ ridiculosity. I'd list plan B's something like this: * Void Linux * OpenBSD now has hardware assisted virtual machines and is a great and stable "Linux". * Funtoo is still OpenRC, and is committed to never use System-D. You can add runit, daemontools-encore or s6 to OpenRC to obtain project supervision/respawning, if you'd like. At this point in time, Gentoo's a little too "reach across the isle" to suit my taste, and I have a feeling Gentoo will soon default to System-D. * Manjaro is still very tweakable to remove System-D and replace with sysvinit, after which sysvinit can easily be replaced by runit, s6, Epoch, Busybox Init (talk to Karl Hammar for tips), or several others. * I've heard that there are now sans-systemD versions of Arch. Given that once upon a time Arch prided itself as being very close to the metal, a sans-systemD Arch would be a wonderful machine. For the Devuan user, these are definitely *plan Bs*. Only two aren't rolling releases, and one of those doesn't even use the Linux kernel. I've tried them all, and I think all of them are "more difficult" than Devuan. Funtoo is a serious time committment: Source compilation isn't instant. But if someday some sort of bad people take over the Devuan project, there are alternatives. How could bad people take over Devuan? I don't know, and I hope it never happens. But history tells us it's possible. At the turn of the century, Red Hat was absolutely committed to free software and making the best conceivable operating system. Debian was a no-corporation champion of free software, with strong ties to FSF, and was trusted absolutely by the larger GNU/Linux community. Back in 2000, Debian was EVERYBODY's Plan B, because we all knew Debian would always be alive and always be completely trustworthy. > Nothing can stop a determined community from setting itself free. I agree, and once wrote about that phenomenon: http://www.troubleshooters.com/tpromag/200110/200110.htm#_linuxlog SteveT Steve Litt January 2018 featured book: Troubleshooting: Why Bother? http://www.troubleshooters.com/twb ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Backup plans: was Which is free, which is open source, et al.
Am 13.01.2018 um 18:02 schrieb Steve Litt: [snip] > * OpenBSD now has hardware assisted virtual machines and is a great > and stable "Linux". sed 's/Linux/Unix-like OS/' Also, there's a considerable (non-technical) difference between what GNU+Linux distributions like Devuan on the one side and OpenBSD on the other consider free software. Linux is being released under the terms of the GPLv2, OpenBSD isn't. In fact, OpenBSD is anti-GPL: "The GNU Public License and licenses modeled on it impose the restriction that source code must be distributed or made available for all works that are derivatives of the GNU copyrighted code. While this may superficially look like a noble strategy, it is a condition that is typically unacceptable for commercial use of software. So in practice, it usually ends up hindering free sharing and reuse of code and ideas rather than encouraging it. As a consequence, no additional software bound by the GPL terms will be considered for inclusion into the OpenBSD base system. For historical reasons, the OpenBSD base system still includes the following GPL-licensed components: the GNU compiler collection (GCC) with supporting binutils and libraries, GNU CVS, GNU texinfo, the mkhybrid file system creation tool, and the readline library. Replacement by equivalent, more freely licensed tools is a long-term desideratum." (https://www.openbsd.org/policy.html) > * I've heard that there are now sans-systemD versions of Arch. Given > that once upon a time Arch prided itself as being very close to the > metal, a sans-systemD Arch would be a wonderful machine. > > For the Devuan user, these are definitely *plan Bs*. Only two aren't > rolling releases, and one of those doesn't even use the Linux > kernel. I've tried them all, and I think all of them are "more > difficult" than Devuan. Funtoo is a serious time committment: Source > compilation isn't instant. Apparently, the canonical list of F/OSS operating systems without SystemD is at: http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page#Free_and_Open-Source_.28FOSS.29_operating_systemswithout_systemd_in_the_default_installation [snip] Best, msi ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Suspend
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 Hi, I have a rather strange behavior recently with suspend. I usually suspend all my laptops to ram. I have two laptops, one with custom kernel (4.14.12) and one with the usual ascii kernel 4.14.0-3-686-pae (now). Both are ascii and both are 32bit. Since few weeks, the laptop with the distribution kernel shows a strange behaviour. When I send it to sleep, it starts enabling the xscreensaver (I use wdm and fvwm) then kills the X so I get the wdm login dialog. Now the system stays up with the sleeping LED blink. Nothing more happens now, I can login; even via ssh; and do stuff. But when I do a reboot or halt at that point, the system goes to sleep instantly. When I wake it up again, it does perform the reboot/system halt. The other laptop with my own kernel works fine. So I suspect that one of the latest kernel updates did something that prevent a clean suspend. Any one an idea? Regards Klaus - -- Klaus Ethgen http://www.ethgen.ch/ pub 4096R/4E20AF1C 2011-05-16Klaus Ethgen Fingerprint: 85D4 CA42 952C 949B 1753 62B3 79D0 B06F 4E20 AF1C -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Comment: Charset: ISO-8859-1 iQGzBAEBCgAdFiEEMWF28vh4/UMJJLQEpnwKsYAZ9qwFAlpaf2QACgkQpnwKsYAZ 9qwGIwwAj0xbI2NV0KmMfE8VlnMlwVEejI2y6Zovf7d+WC2twE3VqDD27Gcg10QY 4yLb1O8bHAvJA5GJCfASf53FskQzcNFIw9mT95gn0DR85QQyeZR7yd5KFq4lV//F r0TwulXT/RErxR7yMWPkdxqvGqxZHWRUMbf+9yXI03qAiVWZWv/VAIEzk0HSMJhz A+n5V0zl9W+zNORNdmm1/ArfJVNPsuOQEzrJe5r4aaplaoKx496JJYTrZqz8SzJr u9xh8XubRLgtBWEs8ZKhYUrj6EhyTbzHGPyP/LPXg4I3vUSiE9VpYEN2TV5DtRIX V8WWUSgN/+ShrxKIPHSBytCyi9LL+q6d1K6UFdnFpycI7P/ntfKT0nwpYgCehEiG 5Kzlm+TV25KnDkL8GgCIG5pAQvLNAtmUWlYbQvBXbMCVT1P1SGeVV2q0onIPPBSR p+IhL+W0Ic1BGwcPssU9qU7SVfqXswVy3wOzA6t3BFLqDGwf3Sbi4V90GcK6SANh hJqZmiaV =c9y0 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Which is free, which is open source, et al.
Quoting Jaromil (jaro...@dyne.org): > plus funny to read Devuan turning almost into a DonJuan :^D I look forward to quoting Don Giovanni's servant Leporello about Devuan adoptions: In Italia seicento e quaranta; In Alemagna, duecento e trentuna; Cento in Francia, in Turchia novantuna; Ma in Ispagna son già mille e tre. Well, it's a start. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgC3GGxF1E0 (It's the second verse, carefully ripped out of context by yr. humble servant.) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Backup plans: was Which is free, which is open source, et al.
Quoting Michael Siegel (m...@malbolge.net):
> Am 13.01.2018 um 18:02 schrieb Steve Litt:
>
> [snip]
>
> > * OpenBSD now has hardware assisted virtual machines and is a great
> > and stable "Linux".
>
> sed 's/Linux/Unix-like OS/'
>
> Also, there's a considerable (non-technical) difference between what
> GNU+Linux distributions like Devuan on the one side and OpenBSD on the
> other consider free software. Linux is being released under the terms of
> the GPLv2, OpenBSD isn't. In fact, OpenBSD is anti-GPL:
You might as well save your (figurative) breath. It turns out, Steve
wasn't attempting a serious discussion of what is free and what is open
source as proclaimed in his subject header. He was just recycling his
standard polemic and attempting to make it look like that other discussion.
--
Cheers, « Le doute n'est pas une état bien agréable, mais
Rick Moen l'assurance est un état ridicule. » ("Doubt is not
r...@linuxmafia.com a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.')
McQ! (4x80) -- Voltaire
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Re: [DNG] Which is free, which is open source, et al.
On 13/01/18 22:59, Rick Moen wrote: Quoting Jaromil (jaro...@dyne.org): plus funny to read Devuan turning almost into a DonJuan :^D I look forward to quoting Don Giovanni's servant Leporello about Devuan adoptions: In Italia seicento e quaranta; In Alemagna, duecento e trentuna; Cento in Francia, in Turchia novantuna; Ma in Ispagna son già mille e tre. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd56A8HH0HE Well, it's a start. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgC3GGxF1E0 (It's the second verse, carefully ripped out of context by yr. humble servant.) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Backup plans: was Which is free, which is open source, et al.
On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 12:02:22PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: [cut] > > > > My personal distro backup plan (i.e., what I would do if Devuan would > > not work fine for me at any given point in the future) consists in > > putting some more effort in making Devuan work better. And then a bit > > more effort, if needed. And then a bit more, if that was not > > enough. And then a bit more, if required. And then a bit more. And so > > on :) > > In my opinion, the preceding paragraph expresses a Primary Plan, not a > backup plan [cut] The bet ingredient for a successful "Primary Plan" is to assume that there is no backup plan, an act accordingly ;) HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Backup plans: was Which is free, which is open source, et al.
On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 10:30:29PM +, KatolaZ wrote: > On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 12:02:22PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > > [cut] > > > > > > > My personal distro backup plan (i.e., what I would do if Devuan would > > > not work fine for me at any given point in the future) consists in > > > putting some more effort in making Devuan work better. And then a bit > > > more effort, if needed. And then a bit more, if that was not > > > enough. And then a bit more, if required. And then a bit more. And so > > > on :) > > > > In my opinion, the preceding paragraph expresses a Primary Plan, not a > > backup plan > > [cut] > > The bet ingredient for a successful "Primary Plan" is to assume that > there is no backup plan, an act accordingly ;) > s/bet /best / s/an act/and act/ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Suspend
On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 10:51:39PM +0100, Klaus Ethgen wrote: > I have a rather strange behavior recently with suspend. > > I usually suspend all my laptops to ram. I have two laptops, one with > custom kernel (4.14.12) and one with the usual ascii kernel > 4.14.0-3-686-pae (now). Both are ascii and both are 32bit. While not nice, this is to be expected -- no one in the kernel community really cares about machines this ancient; they at most get boot-tested, usually even in an emulator, with such details as suspend receiving almost no effort. And, in the recent KPTI (Meltdown, Spectre) massive workfest, I recall just a single remark about 32-bit x86, which pretty much said that there are no fixes for these issues, and mitigating them is not on anyone's priority. (Someone brought by some old Red Hat's 4G/4G patchset, but it wouldn't be enough even if forward-ported.) But, what is your reason to run a _laptop_ this old? I expect these to be barely functional. On the other hand, it is possible you're running a modern machine, just in 32-bit mode. This is not really supported: you may run 32-bit _userspace_ but with a 64-bit kernel. And suspend support in general, well, tends to be spotty. Meow! -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ Imagine there are bandits in your house, your kid is bleeding out, ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ the house is on fire, and seven big-ass trumpets are playing in the ⠈⠳⣄ sky. Your cat demands food. The priority should be obvious... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Suspend
On Sun, Jan 14, 2018 at 12:17:46AM +0100, Adam Borowski wrote: > > And, in the recent KPTI (Meltdown, Spectre) massive workfest, I recall just > a single remark about 32-bit x86, which pretty much said that there are no > fixes for these issues, and mitigating them is not on anyone's priority. > (Someone brought by some old Red Hat's 4G/4G patchset, but it wouldn't be > enough even if forward-ported.) Do any 32-bit machines do speculative execution? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Suspend
On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 11:06:34PM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Sun, Jan 14, 2018 at 12:17:46AM +0100, Adam Borowski wrote: > > > > And, in the recent KPTI (Meltdown, Spectre) massive workfest, I recall just > > a single remark about 32-bit x86, which pretty much said that there are no > > fixes for these issues, and mitigating them is not on anyone's priority. > > (Someone brought by some old Red Hat's 4G/4G patchset, but it wouldn't be > > enough even if forward-ported.) > > Do any 32-bit machines do speculative execution? On x86? The almost-true rule is: if you can run Stretch/Ascii on it, it's speculative. Exceptions are first-generation Atoms, and possibly some obscure non-Intel/AMD manufacturers. P5 was in-order, but Jessie is the last release supporting it. I'm not well-versed in CPU zoology, but I believe neither Quark nor Knights Ferry support any general-purpose OS. On the other hand, the Pinebook currently sitting on my desk is 64-bit yet doesn't do speculation. Not x86, though. Meow! -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ Imagine there are bandits in your house, your kid is bleeding out, ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ the house is on fire, and seven big-ass trumpets are playing in the ⠈⠳⣄ sky. Your cat demands food. The priority should be obvious... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
