Re: [DNG] Text editor ?
Am 2017-12-11 08:43, schrieb Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI: Thank you; sadly this is not offered in Devuan Jessie ;-3( Sure it is. Package name is geany. https://packages.debian.org/de/jessie/geany Jochen ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] URL - The importance of Devuan
Interesting essay. /Lars "The importance of Devuan" https://blog.ungleich.ch/en-us/cms/blog/2017/12/10/the-importance-of-devuan/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Text editor ?
On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 08:48:34AM +0100, Svante Signell wrote: > On Mon, 2017-12-11 at 08:04 +0100, J. Fahrner wrote: > > Am 2017-12-10 23:25, schrieb Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI: > > > Thanks, I should have been more precise: one with a GUI. > > > > My favourite GUI text editor is Geany. > > emacs of course :) namely :) -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Text editor ?
On 10.12.17 22:16, ael wrote: > On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 07:09:27PM -0300, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: > > Is there in Devuan a text editor that will do find/replace on a regexp ? > > Almost every non trivial editor will do that: my favorite is vim. > Vim (gvim is the GUI version) offers a number of regex flavours, Typing ":help regex" brings up the relevant help, including links to more info. Section 3, magic, contains a table showing the differences between the flavours. The default flavour is similar to posix BRE, and is similarly beset by an obfuscating excess of backslashes which make the regex hard to read. Setting "\v" very magic fixes that, and is a close approximation of posix ERE, as used in awk, sed, lex, ... Erik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] URL - The importance of Devuan
Il 11/12/2017 09:39, Lars Noodén ha scritto: Interesting essay I completely agree with what is reported. I'm a sysadmin of a small Linux Debian 7 infrastructure (about 10 servers) in Italy and I'm trying to switch from Debina 7 to Devuan. I'm cheering and in my small way I try to update with Devuan machine structure. Alberto Senni ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] URL - The importance of Devuan
On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 10:39:34AM +0200, Lars Noodén wrote: > Interesting essay. > > /Lars > > "The importance of Devuan" > > https://blog.ungleich.ch/en-us/cms/blog/2017/12/10/the-importance-of-devuan/ > Related: https://linux.slashdot.org/story/17/12/11/0049245/does-systemd-makes-linux-complex-error-prone-and-unstable https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15891046 with, finally, not-so-harsh comments as we used to get two years ago. I like the essay but I must admit I don't particularly like the "doord" example. And the reason is that, believe it or not, technical aspects (like boot speed or number of bugs) are relatively marginal in the systemd debacle, at least for me. TL;DR: Maintaining alternatives is the only way to stay alive. The main point is "ecological" and is all about maintaining variety, avoiding to put all your eggs in the same basket, which also happen to belong to someone else and not to you. The GNU/Linux ecosystem has thrived and succeeded thanks to the existence of many, different, even contrasting alternatives, for virtually any aspect of the system. systemd is simply the negation of that approach. And to be honest, yes, in this respect the systemd approach is pretty much in line with the worst tradition of the unix systems produced back in the 80's, which where sturdly monolitic systems embracing everything in incompatible and closed ways, and whose stupid approach to "total domination" almost killed unix forever. That is not the "unix tradition" I would like to be preserved. This is not the "unix phylosophy" many of us keep talking about. Those of us who we have been grown up in the GNU/Linux bazaar know very well that there is no "one-single-way" of doing anything. Random Joe retains the freedom of coding yet-another-way of solving the very same problem, with high chances of fostering a nice leap forward. This is the main reason why the GNU/Linux ecosystem has produced high-quality software that could have not been conceived by one-single-mind in one-single-way following one-single-plan, even with a few thousand years at their disposal. This is the single main reason why maintaining alternatives to the systemd avalanche, and as many and variegated as possible, is so fundamental for the very survival of this ecosystem. This is what the auld-aunties are ranting about, in the end. Forget the technical details: quality comes out of natural selection, almost automatically, as it has done in the last 25 years, and natural selection is only possible if we can span a sufficiently large portion of the underlying solution space with different approaches, replacing pieces at will, merging, patching, diff-ing, scrapping, sharing. And once quality is achieved, it is available for everybody, including companies and businesses. Maintaining alternatives, and as many as possible of them, and allowing alternatives to hybridise and cross-fertilise each other is the only way of finding new, better, more efficient ways of solving the same old set of problems, and new ones. Knowing that any of those "perfect" solution is just waiting to be superseeded by a better one, resulting from the latest hybridation, to which new code and new ideas have been added in a creative way. Maintaining alternatives is the only way to stay alive. My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] URL - The importance of Devuan
Katola2: ... > Forget the technical details: quality comes out of natural selection, > almost automatically, as it has done in the last 25 years, and natural > selection is only possible if we can span a sufficiently large portion > of the underlying solution space with different approaches, replacing > pieces at will, merging, patching, diff-ing, scrapping, sharing. And > once quality is achieved, it is available for everybody, including > companies and businesses. ... Natural selection is easily subverted. And there is too many people trying to change the "natural selection". It seems that that is possible because people doesn't trust their own instincts or whatever and relay the choise to someone or something else like their idol, "it's a big company". Also we are a group (herd?) animal and tend to do things because others are doing it, not because it's the best thing to do. Regards, /Karl Hammar --- Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden +46 173 140 57 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] URL - The importance of Devuan
Le 11/12/2017 à 09:39, Lars Noodén a écrit : Interesting essay. /Lars "The importance of Devuan" https://blog.ungleich.ch/en-us/cms/blog/2017/12/10/the-importance-of-devuan/ Please note the following. In the abovementioned blog, Nico Schottelius wrote: Let's say every car manufacturer recently discovered a new technology named "doord", which lets you open up car doors much faster than before. It only takes 0.05 seconds, instead of 1.2 seconds on average. So every time you open a door, you are much, much faster! This is the original saling argument, but it is wrong. Several persons have already reported that Devuan's sysvinit booted faster than Debian's systemd. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Devuan ASCII sprint -- 15-16-17 Dec. 2017
Dear D1rs, there will be a Devuan ASCII sprint on 15-16-17th December 2017 (this coming weekend). The aim is to squash a few outstanding bugs in Devuan ASCII, with the view of preparing a beta release. Some of the tasks require "hands-on" to the repos and other services, but virtually everybody else can help by testing packages, fixes, upgrade paths, patches, installation material, and so on, so anybody with some time to spare over the next week-end is welcome to join. A list of currently outstanding bugs relevant for ASCII can be found at: http://bugs.devuan.org//cgi/pkgreport.cgi?which=tag&data=ascii If you can provide more info on those bugs, or patches, or anything, be prepared to do so. There is no fixed schedule so far, but the best way to get in touch and "do things" is probably by hanging around on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday on #devuan-dev. More detailed information will be provided sooner to the date. Come on, let's put ASCII out. The Dev1Devs -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] URL - The importance of Devuan
On Mon, 11 Dec 2017 17:11:54 +0100 Didier Kryn wrote: > Le 11/12/2017 à 09:39, Lars Noodén a écrit : > > Interesting essay. > > > > /Lars > > > > "The importance of Devuan" > > > > https://blog.ungleich.ch/en-us/cms/blog/2017/12/10/the-importance-of-devuan/ > > > > Please note the following. In the abovementioned blog, Nico > Schottelius wrote: > > Let's say every car manufacturer recently discovered a new > > technology named "doord", which lets you open up car doors much > > faster than before. It only takes 0.05 seconds, instead of 1.2 > > seconds on average. So every time you open a door, you are much, > > much faster! > > This is the original saling argument, but it is wrong. Several > persons have already reported that Devuan's sysvinit booted faster > than Debian's systemd. > > Didier This whole thing is a difficult discussion to have if what's commonly called "conspiracy theory" is not allowed into the discussion. Relegating the entire systemd debacle to "Hanlon's razor" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor) is implausible unless one sees stupidity around every corner, *and* all the stupidity resonates in an identical direction at all times. Much more plausible explanations involve the "follow the money" heuristic, and when you point that out, a chorus of Hanlonites call you a conspiracy theorist, offer you a tinfoil hat, and say you're offtopic. Meanwhile, regardless of boot speed, a giant entangled monolith that reinvents ten or so wheels, tying the reinvented wheels inextricably together and to several other tie points, thereby eliminating parts interchangeability, is on the face of it a bad idea. That would take an incredibly coherent wave of stupidity to foist on the world. It would be like a million monkeys with a million typewriters. On the other hand, throw money and profit motive into the equation, and it's quite easy to see how this happened, and why a myth of boot speed gained so much ground so fast. As always, conspiracies exist, so automatically ruling out all conspiracy theories is a logical falacy. SteveT Steve Litt December 2017 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times http://www.troubleshooters.com/thrive ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] URL - The importance of Devuan
* On 2017 11 Dec 10:13 -0600, Didier Kryn wrote: > This is the original saling argument, but it is wrong. Several persons > have already reported that Devuan's sysvinit booted faster than > Debian's systemd. It seems that as SD subsumes more and more services it would naturally slow down. Especially when one considers that the replaced services have been around for years, or even decades and are likely quite well debugged and optimized while the SD replacements are new code with a lot maturation needed. - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] URL - The importance of Devuan
On 2017-12-11 14:06, Nate Bargmann wrote: * On 2017 11 Dec 10:13 -0600, Didier Kryn wrote: This is the original saling argument, but it is wrong. Several persons have already reported that Devuan's sysvinit booted faster than Debian's systemd. It seems that as SD subsumes more and more services it would naturally slow down. Especially when one considers that the replaced services have been around for years, or even decades and are likely quite well debugged and optimized while the SD replacements are new code with a lot maturation needed. - Nate And since the "bugs" are often considered wontfix "features", don't expect it to get any better. golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] URL - The importance of Devuan
On 11/12/2017, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > On 2017-12-11 14:06, Nate Bargmann wrote: >> * On 2017 11 Dec 10:13 -0600, Didier Kryn wrote: >>> This is the original saling argument, but it is wrong. Several persons >>> have already reported that Devuan's sysvinit booted faster than >>> Debian's systemd. >> >> It seems that as SD subsumes more and more services it would naturally >> slow down. Especially when one considers that the replaced services >> have been around for years, or even decades and are likely quite well >> debugged and optimized while the SD replacements are new code with a >> lot >> maturation needed. >> >> - Nate > > And since the "bugs" are often considered wontfix "features", don't > expect it to get any better. > Those are not "bugs" but new features. That is the reason for "wontfix". ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] URL - The importance of Devuan
Edward Bartolo wrote on 12/12/17 07:30: On 11/12/2017, goli...@dyne.org wrote: On 2017-12-11 14:06, Nate Bargmann wrote: * On 2017 11 Dec 10:13 -0600, Didier Kryn wrote: This is the original saling argument, but it is wrong. Several persons have already reported that Devuan's sysvinit booted faster than Debian's systemd. It seems that as SD subsumes more and more services it would naturally slow down. Especially when one considers that the replaced services have been around for years, or even decades and are likely quite well debugged and optimized while the SD replacements are new code with a lot maturation needed. - Nate And since the "bugs" are often considered wontfix "features", don't expect it to get any better. Those are not "bugs" but new features. That is the reason for "wontfix". Run along, Wally. Let the grown-ups talk. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] URL - The importance of Devuan
On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 02:06:11PM -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote: > * On 2017 11 Dec 10:13 -0600, Didier Kryn wrote: > > This is the original saling argument, but it is wrong. Several persons > > have already reported that Devuan's sysvinit booted faster than > > Debian's systemd. > > It seems that as SD subsumes more and more services it would naturally > slow down. Especially when one considers that the replaced services > have been around for years, or even decades and are likely quite well > debugged and optimized partly because they were written when performnce was critical because they had to be usable on the slow small machines of decades ago (they were the fastest then avilable). -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] URL - The importance of Devuan
On 12/11/2017 09:19 PM, Steve Litt wrote: [snip]> Much more plausible explanations involve the "follow the money" > heuristic, and when you point that out, a chorus of Hanlonites call you > a conspiracy theorist, offer you a tinfoil hat, and say you're offtopic. [snip] > On the other hand, throw money and profit motive into the equation, and > it's quite easy to see how this happened, and why a myth of boot speed > gained so much ground so fast. Yet, as is their habit, their response is to go ad hominem rather than address the points made. Money is a great motivator for company managers, especially at the C level. M$ pointed out ages, albeit inadvertently via leaked documents, that any company that can grab hold of "Linux" and make it effectively proprietary can lock up the market. Specifically I mean the Halloween Documents which have turned out to be quite accurate. So as to following the money trail, it looks like Red Hat is using the strategy and goal lined up in the first Halloween Document. So, if nothing else, Devuan is important in that it prevents Red Hat from decommoditizing Linux completely. Unfortunately that also makes Devuan very visible to opponents of general purpose computing. /Lars ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] URL - The importance of Devuan
On 12/11/2017 12:48 PM, KatolaZ wrote: [snip]> Related: > > > https://linux.slashdot.org/story/17/12/11/0049245/does-systemd-makes-linux-complex-error-prone-and-unstable > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15891046 > Thanks. I think another year or two and maybe the majority of general users who wish to stick with GNU/Linux yet avoid systemd will move over to Devuan. The main problem I see is that many are unaware of it and it does not yet have the visibility needed. A key factor in increasing visibility would be if a Debian-derivative distro becomes a Devuan-derivative distro. When I looked through the /. comments the experiences with systemd were all negative. There was one comment that stood out in favor of systemd but it struck me as the typical shill boilerplate we've seen in the past. It touched on all three of their standard arguments which are all logical fallacies: ad hominem, ad novitatem, and ad numerum. Elsewhere, I see some of the systemd crowd blogging negatively about the speed of Devuan releases. I'm already using Ascii myself the Devuan Ascii Sprint which is coming up on th 15th - 17th would be a general way to address that: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20171211.190051.843303de.en.html /Lars ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
