Re: [DNG] Devuan presentation at Chemnitzer Linux-Tage (Germany) 2018?
On 15.08.17 21:49, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 12:42:50AM +0200, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > > > ..I agree "hate" is a little too loaded and a little too warranted. ;o) > > Exactly my point. But it's better to present the emotionally unloaded > facts and let the listeners of readers come up with their own feelings > about the matter. People resent being force-fed emotions. Even "loathe" is too strong to be attractive to an audience which is not already converted. Understanding that hatred arises out of fear (nothing less can evoke such a strong response, in reality), leads to a less emotive presentation. Better to tickle the audience's curiosity, than to bludgeon their intelligence with heavy propaganda. They will be more attracted by outgoing engagement with their nascent curiosity, than by a presenter egocentrically obsessing about his own dark emotions. Creeping dictatorial constraint vs freedom of choice ; Sterile monoculture vs vital diversity, agile Linux vs monolithic M$-style Systemdix, ... let the ego go off on a coffee break, and engage with the facts, as Hendrik so wisely advises, but gently emphasise the dichotomy with evocative adjectives, perhaps? Erik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan presentation at Chemnitzer Linux-Tage (Germany) 2018?
El 16/08/17 a les 09:17, Erik Christiansen ha escrit: > On 15.08.17 21:49, Hendrik Boom wrote: >> On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 12:42:50AM +0200, Arnt Karlsen wrote: >>> >>> ..I agree "hate" is a little too loaded and a little too warranted. ;o) >> >> Exactly my point. But it's better to present the emotionally unloaded >> facts and let the listeners of readers come up with their own feelings >> about the matter. People resent being force-fed emotions. > > Even "loathe" is too strong to be attractive to an audience which is not > already converted. Understanding that hatred arises out of fear (nothing > less can evoke such a strong response, in reality), leads to a less > emotive presentation. Better to tickle the audience's curiosity, than to > bludgeon their intelligence with heavy propaganda. > > They will be more attracted by outgoing engagement with their nascent > curiosity, than by a presenter egocentrically obsessing about his own > dark emotions. > > Creeping dictatorial constraint vs freedom of choice ; Sterile monoculture > vs vital diversity, agile Linux vs monolithic M$-style Systemdix, ... let the > ego go off on a coffee break, and engage with the facts, as Hendrik so > wisely advises, but gently emphasise the dichotomy with evocative > adjectives, perhaps? > > Erik The best strategy is to go as a contributor for Chemnitzer Linux-Tage. The best propaganda is that exposed contents contribute people to make their own decisions and to more people works on (p.e.) init softwares. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Which desktops are available in Devuan?
Multiple replies here, to minimise list traffic: On 15.08.17 13:18, Steve Litt wrote: > On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 16:45:05 +1000 > Sporting a similar user interace, but with increased stability, > parsamonious use of resources, and absolutely no allegience to systemd > is LXDE. For the past 4 years the LXDE guys have been bragging that > LXDE is deprecated and you should move to LXQt, which isn't half bad > either. I keep on with LXDE because it's better (in my subjective > opinion). That's good news. If LXQt were merely LXDE with a different grahics base, that'd be great. We'll see what the Razor-qt has brought with it. On 15.08.17 10:22, Fungi4All wrote: > Welcome Erik, > The first thing I did in Devuan was to install lightdm and LXDE and > remove xfce. LXqt is nowhere like lxde and nowhere close as efficient > in resources as LXDE. About the only thing being limited in LXDE > as it hasn't been Devuanized is the logout screen. You can't > shutdown/reboot/suspend. > You can always do so fine at the command line $sudo rebootetc. > In most cases I use openbox though with some lxde tools. Well, I hark back to the days when we only had "shutdown -h now", so that's manageable. (Heck, at first we had to shut down the cpu, then press a shutdown button on the hard-drive (5 MB) in the adjacent 19" system rack, wait 2 minutes for it to wind down, then power that off. Them wuz the days. ;) On 15.08.17 23:07, aitor wrote: > You can test the following image announced in the IRC channel (it hasn't any > desktop environment), but you'll be able to get network connection using the > backend of simple-netaid. Just run: > > /usr/lib/simple-netaid/bin/backend --help > > Cheers, > > Aitor. Thanks aitor, but the little Udoo X86 is used for video streaming ... though that could probably be wangled on the command line - after a bit of trial and a lot of error. Thanks for all the help. I'll take this one step at the time. Erik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] OT: most processors are insecure (was Re: Nvidia Drivers)
On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 at 07:59:34 +0200 Narcis Garcia wrote: > El 15/08/17 a les 21:33, Simon Hobson ha escrit: >> Narcis Garcia wrote: >> >>> As Far As I Know, CPU makes what software asks to do. >>> If software doesn't call some CPU functions, those functions will not >>> work. >> >> Well, maybe, but these days you can't take that on trust. Your OS no >> longer runs native on the processor - there's EFI as a shim between your >> code and the processor, hence no guarantees that *ONLY* your code is >> running. As a side effect, the EFI can permit or deny access to processor >> functions as well - eg by disabling the virtualisation support features >> for "entry level" machines. So these days, you can't assume that there >> isn't any form of backdoor - with hidden code in the EFI, using hidden >> functions in the CPU, and making backdoor use of the onboard NIC to call >> out to someone. OK, that's perhaps into "tinfoil hat" territory - but the >> point is that we can no longer completely trust the hardware we >> supposedly buy (sometimes feels like rental !) > > Isn't EFI a software installed by person who formats disk? No, it's the "new" (designed in the second half of the '90s and succeded by UEFI in 2005) motherboard firmware that replaced the kegacy BIOS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface If you also take in consideration the several proprietrary, closed-source firmwares that routinely run inside "your" box (disk controller, HD/SSD, network controller, WiFi controller and so forth), turns out it's pretty difficult knowing what "your" CPU is actually running and what it's not running. And this does not even take into consideration such aberrations like IME (Intel Management Engine) and friends: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Active_Management_Technology Intel Active Management Technology (AMT) is hardware and firmware technology for remote out-of-band management of personal computers In fact I thing the list of Intel primary customers omits a list of several government agencies... Alessandro ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] OT: most processors are insecure (was Re: Nvidia Drivers)
On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 at 13:48:37 -0400 Haines Brown wrote: > It would be naive to think that CPU producers don't build in a > backdoor. This is why I take an interest in Chinese CPUs. There are also processors produced from Russian firms: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Russian_microprocessors > At this point they are only RISC processors, Looks like all Russian CPUs are SPARC or MIPS-based. I think they're avoiding Intel-like stuff on purpose, they probably want to avoid any copyright infringment claim and also having to get a licence to be able to produce their own processors. > but before long they should produce a product competitive with Intel. Two years ago I read Russian CPUs are about as powerful and efficient as five-years old Intel CPUs. I don't know how Chinese CPUs compare, but keep in mind the world's most powerful computer, the Chinese Sunway TaihuLight, is running on native CPUs, the SW26010: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunway_TaihuLight https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SW26010 The same supercomputer is rated #4 worldwide as far as power-efficiency is concerned. > I suppose it will also have a back door, door, but China seems less > threatening than the U.S. To non-Chinese it is, sure! ;-) Alessandro ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] OT: most processors are insecure (was Re: Nvidia Drivers)
On 16.08.17 11:24, Alessandro Selli wrote: > Intel Active Management Technology (AMT) is hardware and firmware > technology for remote out-of-band management of personal computers Didn't know about that stuff. OK, if firmware undermines iptables, then it'll need either a surreptitious in-band internet channel to phone home, or some other back-channel provided by the ISP, I figure. If we interpose e.g. an ARM firewall, then it's harder to hide such stuff on a small RISC chip. A Beaglebone comes to mind. > In fact I thing the list of Intel primary customers omits a list of > several government agencies... Well, if they're a concern, then it's time to move the relevant host to the other side of an airgap. For my money, they're like anyone on unemployment benefits - contributing to consumption in a western world which has ample production. Erik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there?
On 08/16/2017 02:36 AM, Dave Turner wrote: > On 16/08/17 00:39, Joel Roth wrote: >> Further, I don't have libsystemd0 installed on my system at >> all, although there are some config files hanging around in /etc. >> >> dpkg -l libsystemd0 >> Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold >> | >> Status=Not/Inst/Conf-files/Unpacked/halF-conf/Half-inst/trig-aWait/Trig-pend >> >> |/ Err?=(none)/Reinst-required (Status,Err: uppercase=bad) >> ||/ Name Version ArchitectureDescription >> +++--===-===-= >> >> rc libsystemd0:amd64215-17+deb8u4 amd64 systemd utility >> library >> > Thanks for that, I'll be more careful when I redo the install! > > Mainly I need a nice web browser - Palemoon is OK, and I use VLC for > watching DVDs. None of that needs anything more than xdm, twm, and xfe. > Later jack audio will get installed along with audacity. > > Apple hardware is really good quality but can be very fussy when you get > rid of OSX. My iMac is 11 years old and refuses to break. > > DaveT > Note the version of libsystemd0 listed above. It's in jessie. If you remove libsystemd0 from ascii, you'll be browsing the web with lynx or w3m. PA is not the only thing that needs it - you'll lose xserver-xorg, too. There's also /lib/systemd. You can't get rid of that, but you can get rid of /lib/systemd/systemd-udevd by installing eudev from experimental. Instructions are here if you need them: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1543 fsmithred ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] openssl/libssl1 in Debian has disabled TLS 1.0 & 1.1
The Debian maintainer of openssl has unilaterally decided to disable TLS 1.0 and 1.1 with no option to re-enable. This breaks situations where users have no access to or influence on servers which still (unfortunately) use these old protocols. One case is offlineimap and there is a thread on the OLIM mailing list discussing this catastrophic situation. Here is the relevant part of the changelog entry: [ Kurt Roeckx ] * Disable TLS 1.0 and 1.1, leaving 1.2 as the only supported SSL/TLS version. This will likely break things, but the hope is that by the release of Buster everything will speak at least TLS 1.2. This will be reconsidered before the Buster release. -- Kurt Roeckx Mon, 07 Aug 2017 01:08:45 +0200 Devuan needs to avoid importing this problem. ael ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] openrc, eudev, test iso
I made a live-iso with ascii, openrc and eudev for testing purposes. http://distro.ibiblio.org/refracta/files/experimental/ascii_oblx_eudv_oprc-20170813_.iso This started as a no-X Refracta-ascii amd64 live iso (standard system plus extra system utilities). Added openbox, lxpanel, lxterminal, leafpad and a couple other apps. Didn't do much in the way of configuring. It is installable with refractainstaller, but it has grub-efi installed. If you're on a legacy bios system, install the grub-pc debs before you run the installer, and don't select a place for the bootloader if it asks. Let the installer do that (it will ask, too.) Grub debs are in the root of the filesystem. In the live session, run: dpkg -i /grub-pc*.deb If you want to do it yourself, short instructions for installing openrc are here: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=4443#p4443 and for installing eudev: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1543 fsmithred ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] openssl/libssl1 in Debian has disabled TLS 1.0 & 1.1
On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 at 11:56:46 +0100 ael wrote: [...] > Devuan needs to avoid importing this problem. It also needs to avoid been labelled as an unsafe distro, one of the few¹ to still support unsecure protocols. After all, TLS v. 2.0 is from 1995, quite a long time ago. 1) It would be interesting to know how many distributions support TLS v. 1.* in their latest stable release or in their next stable one. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] openrc, eudev, test iso
On 08/16/2017 07:06 AM, fsmithred wrote: > I made a live-iso with ascii, openrc and eudev for testing purposes. > http://distro.ibiblio.org/refracta/files/experimental/ascii_oblx_eudv_oprc-20170813_.iso > > This started as a no-X Refracta-ascii amd64 live iso (standard system plus > extra system utilities). Added openbox, lxpanel, lxterminal, leafpad and a > couple other apps. Didn't do much in the way of configuring. > > It is installable with refractainstaller, but it has grub-efi installed. > If you're on a legacy bios system, install the grub-pc debs before you run > the installer, and don't select a place for the bootloader if it asks. Let > the installer do that (it will ask, too.) Grub debs are in the root of the > filesystem. In the live session, run: > dpkg -i /grub-pc*.deb > > > If you want to do it yourself, short instructions for installing openrc > are here: > https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=4443#p4443 > > and for installing eudev: > https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1543 > > fsmithred > You might need this: login/password: root/root, user/user fsr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] openssl/libssl1 in Debian has disabled TLS 1.0 & 1.1
On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 at 13:24:36 +0200 Alessandro Selli wrote: > On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 at 11:56:46 +0100 > ael wrote: > > [...] > > > Devuan needs to avoid importing this problem. > > It also needs to avoid been labelled as an unsafe distro, one of the few¹ > to still support unsecure protocols. After all, TLS v. 2.0 is from 1995, > quite a long time ago. Sorry, that's SSL v 2. TLS v. 1.2 is dated 2008. Not very long tome ago. I'd favour disabling it by default, only to be enabled if esplicitly configured to do so. Alessandro ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Devuan presentation at Chemnitzer Linux-Tage (Germany) 2018?
Quote: << "Why I Hate systemd" >> Since systemd has been adopted by most distributions, "Hate" is probably going to derail any objective discussion. A better title would be, "Why init freedom offers more flexibility" or something similar. As others said, it is absolutely not wise to use any emotion loaded words. I would prepare such a lecture by making a great effort to be as objective as possible. Therefore, my advice is to stick to facts. Avoid unproven claims and if possible support your arguments visually with statistics stating what statistic was used together with the corrisponding confidence level. Besides the above, when it comes to give the philosophical reasons as to why Devuan was established, again, try to support your arguments with facts, especially that there are situations where conventional GNU/Linux offers more control over a machine and why such control is a benefit. Keep in mind that someone from the audience may tell you that fine control requires the knowledge of complicated shell scripting and the knowledge of how diverse programs are configured in their configuration files. In this case be sincere: being more knowledgeable is the small price to pay. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Which desktops are available in Devuan?
Quoting Erik Christiansen (dva...@internode.on.net): > I might just settle for the default XFCE for a while, after all: Life is > the art of the possible. LXQt on ascii will be worth a try when it's > out, though. Honestly, who the Gehenna needs a Desktop Environment? Because it bundles a graphical file shell? If you want one of those, install whichever one you like best on an a la carte basis. The whole DE concept lacks a compelling justification, IMO. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan presentation at Chemnitzer Linux-Tage (Germany) 2018?
On 08/16/2017 02:34 PM, Edward Bartolo wrote: [snip] > I would prepare such a lecture by making a great effort to be as > objective as possible. Therefore, my advice is to stick to facts. [snip] Definitely stay focused exclusively on documented facts. The presentation will be to easy to derail otherwise. One point that will come up will be the sad situation where many distros now have systemd. Often this is used in the form of a logical fallacy [1] claiming ubiquity is somehow the result of popularity. What really happened was quite different because of the hierarchy of dependencies stemming from core distros like Debian. These two charts makes it really clear how the decisions from Debian and Fedora cascaded outward: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Linux_Distribution_Timeline.svg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/DebianFamilyTree1210.svg For example, because Debian switched Ubuntu had to also because it had no choice. And then Linux Mint went along because Ubuntu did so and they depend on it for their upstream. Even within Debian, it ended on being one single person who made the call to deploy systemd. Look at the ranking for the official tallies: https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/02/msg00402.html He made the decision and it cascaded down to well over 300 derivatives: https://distrowatch.com/search.php?ostype=Linux&category=All&origin=All&basedon=Debian¬basedon=None&desktop=All&architecture=All&package=All&rolling=All&isosize=All&netinstall=All&language=All&defaultinit=All&status=All#simple tldr; have extra slides ready to debunk some of the common system talking points that will come up in the questions at the end, but don't use the slides in the actual presentation Regards, Lars [1] https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan presentation at Chemnitzer Linux-Tage (Germany) 2018?
Edward Bartolo wrote: > Keep in mind that someone from the audience may tell you that > fine control requires the knowledge of complicated shell scripting and > the knowledge of how diverse programs are configured in their > configuration files. Just like Windows, with PowerShell - and a confusingly similar but different PowerShell for Exchange - and all those ".ini' files. I try and stay out of "doing Windows" while working in a mostly Windows-centric outfit, but one thing I have learned is that even some fairly basic tasks need "complicated shell scripting" (aka, magic PowerShell incantations) to do - this is, of course, invisible to those who's skill level has never exceeded the basics that can be done with the "click things randomly till it seems to work" GUI. I've also observed that it's quite easy to screw things up (a little knowledge ...) but impossible to track down later as these incantations make invisible changes - very unlike making changes that are easy to see in a script/config file. And the ultimate config file in the Windows world is of course ... the Registry. That small, easy to navigate, and not at all easy to damage, config database :D Lars Noodén wrote: > Even within Debian, it ended on being one single person who made the > call to deploy systemd. Look at the ranking for the official tallies: > > https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/02/msg00402.html > > He made the decision and it cascaded down to well over 300 derivatives: Also, have a link ready to the analysis someone did showing that in fact "going SystemD" was a minority vote once you look at the options carefully and exclude the ones that didn't really vote for SystemD but were counted as such. Sorry, don't have the link, but I know someone posted it here not all that long ago. Another "weapon" to have in reserve would be a list of serious bugs in stuff LP decided "had to be remade, well because". It's a tricky one to do, because you need to show that those running the project have a track record for really bad code - but without it being possible for someone to turn it around and label it as an attack on those people themselves. Eg, "you have to be careful with SystemD because LP has a history of writing crap code" can easily (but falsely) be rebutted as "so you are lowering your argument to personal attacks then ?". ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Is a desktop needed? [Was: Which desktops are available in Devuan?]
On 16.08.17 04:52, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Erik Christiansen (dva...@internode.on.net): > > > I might just settle for the default XFCE for a while, after all: Life is > > the art of the possible. LXQt on ascii will be worth a try when it's > > out, though. > > Honestly, who the Gehenna needs a Desktop Environment? Because it > bundles a graphical file shell? If you want one of those, install > whichever one you like best on an a la carte basis. The whole DE > concept lacks a compelling justification, IMO. GUI stuff, other than a browser and Eagle doesn't get run on my machines¹. But in my experience each distro has a DE, so it seems to be a matter of selecting the leanest, and fastest to come up and go down. Perhaps I'm not aware of what can be done with a paring knife. As I have for decades worked with 4 stacked xterms most of the time, I suppose that a graphical environment is only needed when I arc up firefox, xpdf, libreoffice, or Eagle. But that's a couple of times per day, so X11 seems necessary. Some sort of WM has to come with that for managing the presentation of these apps, and then it's not far to one of the pre-packaged desktops, I figure. It is, though, not something that I have investigated. Erik ¹ I'm nearly finished with the 8 drawings for my upcoming "tree change" rural build, and rather than fight with GUI drawing packages (which defeat my attempts to do anything with them), I have produced the 4 A3 pages in Postscript, with Vim. Postscript macros for chaining doors, windows, stud walls, etc, made the task into a comfortable programming exercise, and Vim folds all 816 lines into one page of top hierarchy level. As a first foray into Postscript, it has been fun. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Which desktops are available in Devuan?
Rick Moen wrote: > Honestly, who the Gehenna needs a Desktop Environment? Because it > bundles a graphical file shell? If you want one of those, install > whichever one you like best on an a la carte basis. The whole DE > concept lacks a compelling justification, IMO. Ah, now that opens up a whole new debate ... The answer is, that it depends on the skill level of the user. For a technically minded person, like a lot of us here, then you are correct - simple is good, we can use "point tools" for specific tasks. nd we have the ability and inclination to learn how to use them In a business world, my experience is that for a lot of users, you can throw a fairly "unfriendly" interface at them, and provide their tasks are well bounded and sufficient training given, then most users can pick things up fairly quickly. I'm thinking in particular of the ERP system we ran at our last place, running on "green screens" and solely keyboard driven. While not the sort of thing you could throw a novice at and leave them to figure it out, it was fast, precise, and especially in places like the warehouse they could fly through things - as in, they quickly learn that it takes "n presses of the enter key" to get from one field they have to enter things in, to the next, skipping the fields in between that they don't normally use. Especially, none of this "use the mouse to get to one place, then put hands to keyboard to enter data, then go back to mouse, then back to keyboard, ..." But for, I'd say, the vast majority of users - neither of those is true. I'd suggest that the majority of computer users have no training as such - perhaps just a friend showing them how to get started or how to do a certain task when they get stuck. These are the people that made Windows and Mac OS/OS X popular - by having things they can "prod at" until it seems to do what they want. The same people who write documents with jagged left margins/columns because they use spaces to indent because they don't know what the tab key is for. And like it or not, for this very large group of people, the "desktop" needs to be familiar enough (ie look and work like Windows) for them to be able to carry on with their trial and error prodding to get things done. Without this level of ease, these people will never be Linux converts, and if done without care, can easily be turned into "tried it, it was crap and really hard to use" evangelists against Linux. Remember the gag in one o the Star trek films where Scottie has to put the formula for "transparent aluminum" into the mac that's sat on a desk - and he picks up the mouse and starts talking to it ? It's OK as a joke (you think, how could someone that technically brilliant not know how to use a computer ?), but really like many good jokes, it's picking on something real and exaggerating it. MOST USERS DON'T UNDERSTAND COMPUTERS - AT ALL. More importantly, most of those DON'T CARE either. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan presentation at Chemnitzer Linux-Tage (Germany) 2018?
On 2017-08-16 07:39, Simon Hobson wrote: Also, have a link ready to the analysis someone did showing that in fact "going SystemD" was a minority vote once you look at the options carefully and exclude the ones that didn't really vote for SystemD but were counted as such. Sorry, don't have the link, but I know someone posted it here not all that long ago. http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=120652 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] openrc, eudev, test iso
On 08/16/2017 07:06 AM, fsmithred wrote: > > It is installable with refractainstaller, but it has grub-efi installed. > If you're on a legacy bios system, install the grub-pc debs before you run > the installer, and don't select a place for the bootloader if it asks. Let > the installer do that (it will ask, too.) Grub debs are in the root of the > filesystem. In the live session, run: > dpkg -i /grub-pc*.deb > No, that's wrong. grub-efi was installed and was replaced with grub-pc. You don't have to do anything special before running the installer. If you happen to boot on uefi, it will boot and efibootmgr is still installed and will run. Use the graphical installer from the menu and it will (should) do the right thing. Both grub-pc and grub-efi debs are in / in case you need them. fsr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Which desktops work without systemd
> On Aug 15, 2017, at 4:45 AM, Svante Signell wrote: > > On Thu, 2016-04-21 at 19:57 +0200, Rob van der Putten wrote: >> Hi there > > Hi > >> Which desktops work without systemd? >> A list would be nice. > > I'm running mate on an upgraded to ascii VM. Cinnamon is mostly functional. The network control panel reports “The system network services are not compatible with this version.” As long as you’re comfortable configuring (wireless) networks on the command line, it’s fine. Attempting to build Cinnamon from the upstream source succeeds, but can’t install. One of the generated pacakges requires network-manager, which depends on libpam-systemd, which depends on systemd. I’ve already filed a bug about the dependency in network-manager. Fixing that would be a big step towards LMD1E. jf -- John Franklin frank...@tux.org ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Which desktops are available in Devuan?
Quoting Simon Hobson (li...@thehobsons.co.uk): [snip much] > And like it or not, for this very large group of people, the "desktop" > needs to be familiar enough (ie look and work like Windows) for them > to be able to carry on with their trial and error prodding to get > things done. The part you didn't address is where a DE is even helpful for this. It's not. You've argued for a novice-friendly assemblage of good grapical applications (in such use-cases), not for a DE. In any event, your concern appears irrelevant to the original querent, who appears not to be such a user. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Is a desktop needed? [Was: Which desktops are available in Devuan?]
Quoting Erik Christiansen (dva...@internode.on.net): > GUI stuff, other than a browser and Eagle doesn't get run on my > machines¹. But in my experience each distro has a DE, so it seems to be a > matter of selecting the leanest, and fastest to come up and go down. > Perhaps I'm not aware of what can be done with a paring knife. Indeed you are not. I recommend investigating. The results are in my experience rewarding. Indeed, most distros default to a (at least one) DE -- but that doesn't mean you need take the path of least resistance. It's your computer; you get to decide what is installed on it. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan presentation at Chemnitzer Linux-Tage (Germany) 2018?
It's better to defend Init systems than focusing on the Systemd software. Dedicated hours against Systemd are lost hours for Init systems. How to defend init systems (ans supervisors)? Analyzing, documenting, comparing and explaining them to the detail. El 16/08/17 a les 14:39, Simon Hobson ha escrit: > Edward Bartolo wrote: > >> Keep in mind that someone from the audience may tell you that >> fine control requires the knowledge of complicated shell scripting and >> the knowledge of how diverse programs are configured in their >> configuration files. > > Just like Windows, with PowerShell - and a confusingly similar but different > PowerShell for Exchange - and all those ".ini' files. I try and stay out of > "doing Windows" while working in a mostly Windows-centric outfit, but one > thing I have learned is that even some fairly basic tasks need "complicated > shell scripting" (aka, magic PowerShell incantations) to do - this is, of > course, invisible to those who's skill level has never exceeded the basics > that can be done with the "click things randomly till it seems to work" GUI. > I've also observed that it's quite easy to screw things up (a little > knowledge ...) but impossible to track down later as these incantations make > invisible changes - very unlike making changes that are easy to see in a > script/config file. > > And the ultimate config file in the Windows world is of course ... the > Registry. That small, easy to navigate, and not at all easy to damage, config > database :D > > > Lars Noodén wrote: > >> Even within Debian, it ended on being one single person who made the >> call to deploy systemd. Look at the ranking for the official tallies: >> >> https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/02/msg00402.html >> >> He made the decision and it cascaded down to well over 300 derivatives: > > > Also, have a link ready to the analysis someone did showing that in fact > "going SystemD" was a minority vote once you look at the options carefully > and exclude the ones that didn't really vote for SystemD but were counted as > such. Sorry, don't have the link, but I know someone posted it here not all > that long ago. > > > > Another "weapon" to have in reserve would be a list of serious bugs in stuff > LP decided "had to be remade, well because". It's a tricky one to do, because > you need to show that those running the project have a track record for > really bad code - but without it being possible for someone to turn it around > and label it as an attack on those people themselves. Eg, "you have to be > careful with SystemD because LP has a history of writing crap code" can > easily (but falsely) be rebutted as "so you are lowering your argument to > personal attacks then ?". > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] OT: most processors are insecure (was Re: Nvidia Drivers)
Quoting Haines Brown (hai...@histomat.net): > It would be naive to think that CPU producers don't build in a > backdoor. This is why I take an interest in Chinese CPUs. At this point > they are only RISC processors, but before long they should produce a > product competitive with Intel. I suppose it will also have a back door, > door, but China seems less threatening than the U.S. I'm watching the J-Core project, which has resurrected the Hitachi SuperH SH3/SH4 architecture as the patents expire, and should have a fully fleshed 64-bit RISC system out in a couple of years. At that point, you'll have reasonably modern, general-purpose computing with no blackbox hardware/firmware/software subsystems whatsoever. http://j-core.org/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] OT: most processors are insecure (was Re: Nvidia Drivers)
On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 01:26:15PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > I'm watching the J-Core project, which has resurrected the Hitachi > SuperH SH3/SH4 architecture as the patents expire, and should have a > fully fleshed 64-bit RISC system out in a couple of years. At that > point, you'll have reasonably modern, general-purpose computing with no > blackbox hardware/firmware/software subsystems whatsoever. > http://j-core.org/ Alas, they seem to be suspiciously quiet within the last year or so. I wish them well, I even have a sh4 qemu-user chroot I sometimes test stuff in, but I quite don't see any visible progress. Meow! -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ James Damore is a hero. Even mild criticism of bigots these days ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ comes at great personal risk. ⠈⠳⣄ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Which desktops are available in Devuan?
Rick Moen [2017-08-16 19:34]: > The part you didn't address is where a DE is even helpful for this. > It's not. > > You've argued for a novice-friendly assemblage of good grapical > applications (in such use-cases), not for a DE. > > In any event, your concern appears irrelevant to the original querent, > who appears not to be such a user. From a not quite novice: I started with Slackware in 1993, have used Linux more or less exclusively (for my private work) since then. In the beginning with FVWM2, later with IceWM, now with XFCE4, which increased productivity a lot for me. I will not use a desktop without what you call a Desktop Environment - and XFCE4 is the only one that I've tried (Gnome, KDE, LXDE, CDE, Enlightenment) which I can massage to be both user-friendly and somewhat estetically pleasing. -- Hilsen Harald ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there?
On 16/08/17 11:51, fsmithred wrote: On 08/16/2017 02:36 AM, Dave Turner wrote: On 16/08/17 00:39, Joel Roth wrote: Further, I don't have libsystemd0 installed on my system at all, although there are some config files hanging around in /etc. dpkg -l libsystemd0 Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold | Status=Not/Inst/Conf-files/Unpacked/halF-conf/Half-inst/trig-aWait/Trig-pend |/ Err?=(none)/Reinst-required (Status,Err: uppercase=bad) ||/ Name Version ArchitectureDescription +++--===-===-= rc libsystemd0:amd64215-17+deb8u4 amd64 systemd utility library Thanks for that, I'll be more careful when I redo the install! Mainly I need a nice web browser - Palemoon is OK, and I use VLC for watching DVDs. None of that needs anything more than xdm, twm, and xfe. Later jack audio will get installed along with audacity. Apple hardware is really good quality but can be very fussy when you get rid of OSX. My iMac is 11 years old and refuses to break. DaveT Note the version of libsystemd0 listed above. It's in jessie. If you remove libsystemd0 from ascii, you'll be browsing the web with lynx or w3m. PA is not the only thing that needs it - you'll lose xserver-xorg, too. There's also /lib/systemd. You can't get rid of that, but you can get rid of /lib/systemd/systemd-udevd by installing eudev from experimental. Instructions are here if you need them: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1543 fsmithred ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng Yes... I re-installed taking notes of what was getting installed. I have boot from a debian 6 squeeze CD, anything later refuses to boot the iMac. (Fedora has failed since fedora 13, Tinycore linux boots, Slackware boots) Then I do a dist-upgrade to wheezy, that takes it straight to 7.11 which has the beginnings of systemd in it. I used aptitude to get rid of anything with systemd in the name, then I deleted everything systemd from /lib/systemd and etc/systemd. After a reboot and purge I was down to 174 packages and a working but very minimal terminal system. No sound no nothing, reminds me of playing Moonlander on a 300-baud terminal into the mainframe all those years ago... Then I did the devuan-jessie dist-upgrade. That pulled in systemd-udevd so I repeated what I did with wheezy - got rid of all of it! And broke it again! The screen font stays enormous and the keyboard doesn't work so I can't login. I suppose eudev is the next step once I have re-installed squeeze and wheezy! DaveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Which desktops are available in Devuan?
Quoting Harald Arnesen (har...@skogtun.org): > From a not quite novice: > > I started with Slackware in 1993, have used Linux more or less > exclusively (for my private work) since then. In the beginning with > FVWM2, later with IceWM, now with XFCE4, which increased productivity a > lot for me. > > I will not use a desktop without what you call a Desktop Environment - > and XFCE4 is the only one that I've tried. So, here's a point: If you have a Linux system with Thunar (graphical file manager) and the xfwm4 window manager, I'm betting that those _are_ 99% of what you think of as 'XFCE4'. I'm betting that you don't actually have a specific desire and need (also) for xfdashboard, Xftasklets, Xfce4 Screenshooter, Xfce4 Dictionary, Xfburn, Ristretto, XFCE Terminal, Parole media player, Midori Web browser, Eatmonkey download manager, notification-daemon-xfce, the Xfce4 Volstatus system tray notification icon, Xfce4 Power Manager, Gigolo GIO/GVfs front-end, a couple of dozen Xfce4 panel plugins, and around a dozen Thunar plugins, You might not even be totally in love with the Xfce4 panel, _or_ even (gasp!) prefer a different panel not normally bundled as part of the XFCE4 metapackage. _Or_ you might prefer, as many XFCE4 users do, the window manager named 'awesome' rather than xfwm4. And if you started out with less than the entire marching band of those things (which with artwork and bindings are the ensemble known as 'XFCE4') and at any point you decided you wanted any of them or all of them, you can trivially add those with a single apt-get command. So, why do you need to start with the whole marching band? And, moreover, install a 'task' metapackage whose presence requires installation, at all times, of all of the constituent packages thereafter. 'A la carte' is not a swear word, you know. But somehow, most of an entire generation of Linux newcomers have been conned into thinking it is. My point is merely that I think this tunnel-vision is unfortunate. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] bug#79 - pitivi
I apologize if this isn't the correct place to submit 'bug updates?/info?'. The BTS page on Devuan only talked about creating a bug report. I didn't read the 'Dev' section as I am only a user - a happy one, at that. ' Trying to help out on the bugs list - this isn't a solution but perhaps a closure. ' RE: pitivi bug #79 ' It is not directly related to Devuan base-modified packages for systemd hooks ' I would think this is a package maintainer issue or the program author- ' it is referenced on an Ubuntu bug tracker: [url]https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-bugs/msg04522.html[/url] which indicates it has been around since 2014. ' here is another indication that it is not completed yet - re: Fedora [url]http://www.rpm-find.net/linux/rpm2html/search.php?query=pycanberra [/url] RPM resource pycanberra A very basic (and incomplete) wrapper for libcanberra. This is necessary until libcanberra gets proper GObject Introspection support. Found 1 sites for pycanberra https://github.com/psykoyiko/pycanberra/ GaryZ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] cron/fcron/bug#62
I see this is un-assigned. I noticed that cron is tied in with systemd-stuff. ' 1) is anybody/dev working on a cron replacement/upgrade? 2) is the d1h guidelines on dev1galaxy - id#549 upto date? ' only one (of several) way to learn - and that is jump in !! BUT I don't want to jump in somebody's puddle. ' GaryZ aka garyz.dev1 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Which desktops are available in Devuan?
On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 10:34:10 -0700 Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Simon Hobson (li...@thehobsons.co.uk): > > [snip much] > > > And like it or not, for this very large group of people, the > > "desktop" needs to be familiar enough (ie look and work like > > Windows) for them to be able to carry on with their trial and error > > prodding to get things done. > > The part you didn't address is where a DE is even helpful for this. > It's not. Rick, look in the mirror: You caused this. Every time you use words like "Desktop Environment", "Desktop", and "DE" you make them sound special (and geez, I have to investigate whether I need one), when in reality they're all GOSFUIs. Some like their GOSFUIs pretty with cutsey little dragndrop, and some like them simple and quick: Just leave it at that. Every time one uses the word "cgroups" he's subtly arguing for systemd. Every time one uses the word "DE" he's subtly arguing for complex, and usually bloated, GOSFUIs. SteveT Steve Litt July 2017 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Which desktops are available in Devuan?
On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 15:55:30 -0700 Rick Moen wrote: > So, here's a point: If you have a Linux system with Thunar (graphical > file manager) and the xfwm4 window manager, I'm betting that those > _are_ 99% of what you think of as 'XFCE4'. That wouldn't be true of me. Back when I was an Xfce user, I defined Xfce as: * Able to use multiple panels * Able to config the panels via right click * Kinda twitchy during config on Linux, but rock solid on OpenBSD > > I'm betting that you don't actually have a specific desire and need [snip] > (also) for XFCE Terminal, You got that wrong. I *always* install both XFCE Terminal and LXDE Terminal. > Parole media player, I use that from time to time, during the frequent events when my erstwhile favorite media player starts acting stupid. > Midori Web browser, Everybody uses Midori when the usual suspects fail, or when they want a little lighter browser. > Eatmonkey download manager, > notification-daemon-xfce, the Xfce4 Volstatus system tray notification > icon, Xfce4 Power Manager, How would anyone separate those from Xfce? I expect my Xfce (which I never use anymore) to have a tray full of excellent tools including a battery meter. [snip] > _Or_ you might prefer, as many XFCE4 users do, the window manager > named 'awesome' rather than xfwm4. About 1/2 of 1% of my friends use Awesome on a regular basis. It's a committment few are willing to make. > And if you started out with less than the entire marching band of > those things (which with artwork and bindings are the ensemble known > as 'XFCE4') and at any point you decided you wanted any of them or > all of them, you can trivially add those with a single apt-get > command. The preceding is what I've been trying to tell people for years. > > So, why do you need to start with the whole marching band? And, > moreover, install a 'task' metapackage whose presence requires > installation, at all times, of all of the constituent packages > thereafter. > > 'A la carte' is not a swear word, you know. But somehow, most of an > entire generation of Linux newcomers have been conned into thinking it > is. My point is merely that I think this tunnel-vision is > unfortunate. I agree with you, but mostly thanks to the systemd debacle I'm an experienced user and a committed DIY guy. I remember when I started in Linux, I *never* could have remembered which packages put a battery in your panel, or which panel worked with which GOSFUIs, so in my early years I saw Gnome2 and later Xfce as a single-install way to give me a user interface I liked. It's just too bad people turned those package-deal GOSFUIs into a religion. SteveT Steve Litt July 2017 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
