Re: [DNG] What can I do after netman?

[Edward Bartolo]

I can provide more network connection information through a dialog
box. I am suggesting this to be invoked by clicking the word
'Connected' or 'Disconnected'. I can make the latter behave like an
internet hotlink. I will also provide a menu item to invoke the dialog
box to minimize the number of clicks.

What do you think?

Edward

On 28/09/2015, fsmithred  wrote:
> Yes, the address displayed by "ip addr". I'm getting the 192.168.x.x
> number with that command, and that's the one I need. Sorry I wasn't clear.
>
> fsr
>
>
> On 09/28/2015 04:26 PM, Edward Bartolo wrote:
>> So, you are talking about the address displayed by "ip addr"? Please,
>> forgive me to ask again, but I have to be certain to avoid writing
>> code in vain.
>>
>> On 28/09/2015, fsmithred  wrote:
>>> I'm talking about the LAN address. A lot of times, one of the first
>>> things
>>> I do after booting into a new system is use sftp to move files.
>>>
>>> Also, with wicd, I've gotten used to seeing the local address, and I
>>> feel
>>> like it's a more reliable indicator that I'm online than just the word,
>>> Connected. But that's probably because I recall using
>>> gnome-network-manager, and it always lied to me, telling me I was
>>> connected when I wasn't, and vice versa.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> BTW, the zipfile you uploaded a couple of hours ago compiles and runs. I
>>> forgot to look for the panel icon to change between connected and
>>> disconnected states.
>>>
>>> fsr
>>>
>>>
>>> On 09/28/2015 03:03 PM, Edward Bartolo wrote:
 Quote: "Some way to display the IP address when connected, either
 on-demand or
 along with the word, Connected, or some other way."
 ---

 Which ip address? If a pc is connected to a wifi the address is
 something like 192.168.1.102. Are you talking about the ip address
 used by the router to access the internet?

 Edward


 On 28/09/2015, Edward Bartolo  wrote:
> On 28/09/2015, Steve Litt  wrote:
>> On Mon, 28 Sep 2015 15:45:03 +0100
>> Rainer Weikusat  wrote:
>>
>>> ... and who wouldn't want his network interface to be named
>>> "enp0s29u1u2"? After all, anybody unterstands the meaning of eth0
>>> ---
>>> how terribly boring!
>>
>> I don't like it either, but even anti-systemd distros are going for
>> this Freedesktop BS. Luckily, the following command is an easy way to
>> see the names of your network interfaces:
>>
>> ip link | grep "^\S" |  cut -d " " -f2
>>
>>
>> SteveT
>>
>> Steve Litt
>> August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
>> http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust
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>>>
>>>
>
>
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Re: [DNG] New mirror of Devuan 100% free

[tilt!]

Hi Aitor

how did it work out?

Do you have a functional mirror now?

Best regards,
T.

On 09/17/2015 11:36 AM, aitor_czr wrote:

Regenerating /dists/...

Aitor.

On 17/09/15 19:52, aitor_czr  wrote:

There are packages missing, but i've seen were is the mistake and i
will solve it. This is my first attempt.

Aitor.


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[DNG] network device naming (was: What can I do after netman?)

[Rainer Weikusat]

Steve Litt  writes:
> On Mon, 28 Sep 2015 15:45:03 +0100
> Rainer Weikusat  wrote:
>
>> ... and who wouldn't want his network interface to be named
>> "enp0s29u1u2"? After all, anybody unterstands the meaning of eth0 ---
>> how terribly boring!
>
> I don't like it either, but even anti-systemd distros are going for
> this Freedesktop BS.

I think you misunderstood the point I was trying to make (possibly
somewhat unclearly): The whole point of having 'an operating system' is
that it provides an abstract interface userspace software can use to
interact with the physical components of a different computer according
to the functions they're supposed to be provide, regardless of the way
this particular computer happens to be assembled. Considering this,
encoding details of the bus layout and current bus configuration in
network interface names is just profoundly stupid. Further, the kernel
provides an abstract namespace for 'network interfaces' by assigning
names composed of a prefix (like 'eth' or 'wlan') to them, followed by a
running number so that each interfaces gets its own name. The numbers
are assigned in the order in which the corresponding drivers register
their interfaces and the driver routines registering these interface are
intended to execute in the order the kernel calls them. This order, in
turn, depends on the bus layout and configuration but that's something
userspace doesn't have to worry about: For as long as the hardware
configuration doesn't change, there'll always be a first ethernet
interface named eth0 and it will always be the same interface (in case
the hardware configuration does change such that the interface numbering
changes, that's something the guy who changed it has to sort out, since
he alone knows what he was doing and what he meant to accomplish by
it).

If network drivers are provided as modules which are loaded on demand,
the kernel obviously cannot call the driver init routines directly upon
encountering some network interface. Instead, it notifies userspace so
that a helper application can load the module. The problem with a
certain helper application named udev is that it wrecks havoc on the way
the abstract interface namespace provided by the kernel is designed to
work by not ensuring that driver init routines will be called in the
order in which loading the drivers was requested. Someone presumably
considers this a feature but assuming that Mr U Dev Is My Dev hadn't
figured out how to use locks to serialize tasks which ought to execute
serialized by the time the code was written is equally probable (not
understanding when locking has to be used is part of "not having figured
it out yet"). Hence, this enp0s29u1u2ing is nothing but a workround for
a historic design error in udev.

> Luckily, the following command is an easy way to see the names of your
> network interfaces:
>
> ip link | grep "^\S" |  cut -d " " -f2

The ip command has a -o ('oneline') option intended to provide an output
format more easily parsable by other code. In this case, example output
could be

[rw@doppelsaurus]~#ip -o link
1: lo:  mtu 16436 qdisc noqueue state UNKNOWN mode 
DEFAULT \link/loopback 00:00:00:00:00:00 brd 00:00:00:00:00:00
2: eth0:  mtu 1500 qdisc pfifo_fast state UP 
mode DEFAULT qlen 1000\link/ether a0:d3:c1:41:c6:c5 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff
3: wlan0:  mtu 1500 qdisc noop state DOWN mode DEFAULT 
qlen 1000\link/ether 18:cf:5e:37:7b:85 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff

and it's possible to reduce this to just the names with

[rw@doppelsaurus]~#ip -o link | cut -d: -f2
 lo
 eth0
 wlan0

(and in a number of other ways but I think that's the simplest).
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Re: [DNG] [announce] s6-rc, a s6-based service manager for Unix systems

[Rainer Weikusat]

Rob Owens  writes:
>> From: "Rainer Weikusat" 
>> Laurent Bercot  writes:
>
>>>  I'm talking normal use cases here, i.e. situations where the services
>>> *will* succeed. In those situations, it is better to start everything
>>> according to the dependency graph, because then you do *not* trigger
>>> failure paths, which is nicer.
>> 
>> Or you do trigger 'failure paths' which may not be nice at all. Eg,
>> according to a Solaris depenency specification I saw at some time in the
>> past, sending local mails on a Solaris system won't be allowed before
>> LDAP has been started. But there's really no way to predict this because
>> 'starting program A before program B' does not mean 'program A will be
>> ready to serve program B by the time program wants to use its services'.
>
> Here is a real-world scenario that has caused me trouble over the years.
> I have a system that connects wirelessly to my local network.  The system
> uses wicd to manage the network connections, and wicd starts at boot. 
> This system is supposed to mount several NFS shares on boot, but it
> always fails -- even when using openrc (which is dependency-based) on 
> Funtoo.  
>
> The problem is that even though wicd has started, it takes several
> seconds (sometimes up to 30 seconds) to acquire an ip address.

There are two solutions to this:

- fix the NFS code such that it doesn't trip over its own feet
  in such a case: Considering that this is "network programming"
  it has to be able to cope with transient "network not
  available" situations at any time. At least they can happen at
  any time.

- use "a suitable callback mechanism" to kick "the NFS" in the
  desired direction whenever some relevant aspect of "the
  network status" changes

The second one is really just a better workaround as it can't cover all
situations.

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Re: [DNG] New mirror of Devuan 100% free

[aitor_czr]

Still not.

I'm busy now and it will take me about a week. I need to add a script 
for the *.git sources (i suppose they are generated by Jenkins). After 
that i will rebuild the /dist/ folder. Once this aim has been archieved, 
the repository will be up-to-date automatically using contrab, because 
rsync only download/upload the changes.


Aitor.

On 29/09/15 14:00, "tilt!"  wrote:

Hi Aitor

how did it work out?

Do you have a functional mirror now?

Best regards,
T.

On 09/17/2015 11:36 AM, aitor_czr wrote:

>Regenerating/dists/...
>
>Aitor.
>
>On 17/09/15 19:52, aitor_czr  wrote:

>>There are packages missing, but i've seen were is the mistake and i
>>will solve it. This is my first attempt.
>>
>>Aitor.


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Re: [DNG] What can I do after netman?

[fsmithred]

Sure. Clicking on "Connected" would be fine. If possible, having it
displayed on a second, below "Connected" without having to click, and in
smaller type would be ok, too, but I'm guessing that's not as easy to code
or might cause problems with the layout (spacing).

I don't understand your last sentence. What menu are you talking about?

fsr



On 09/29/2015 04:58 AM, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> I can provide more network connection information through a dialog
> box. I am suggesting this to be invoked by clicking the word
> 'Connected' or 'Disconnected'. I can make the latter behave like an
> internet hotlink. I will also provide a menu item to invoke the dialog
> box to minimize the number of clicks.
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> Edward
> 

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Re: [DNG] New mirror of Devuan 100% free

[tilt!]

Ok! :) One more question:

Suppose at some point a new mirror had to be set up (for example
in Australia).

Is the mirror then just a copy of a directory - for example,
"/dists/devuan" on an FTP or HTTP server - or does it require actively
running software for self-maintainance (like the "rebuild" operation
you have described)?

Best regards,
T.

On 09/29/2015 02:38 PM, aitor_czr wrote:

Still not.

I'm busy now and it will take me about a week. I need to add a script
for the *.git sources (i suppose they are generated by Jenkins). After
that i will rebuild the /dist/ folder. Once this aim has been archieved,
the repository will be up-to-date automatically using contrab, because
rsync only download/upload the changes.

Aitor.

On 29/09/15 14:00, "tilt!"  wrote:

Hi Aitor

how did it work out?

Do you have a functional mirror now?

Best regards,
T.

On 09/17/2015 11:36 AM, aitor_czr wrote:

>Regenerating/dists/...
>
>Aitor.
>
>On 17/09/15 19:52, aitor_czr  wrote:

>>There are packages missing, but i've seen were is the mistake and i
>>will solve it. This is my first attempt.
>>
>>Aitor.


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Re: [DNG] report: upgrade Debian Wheezy to Devuan Jessie

[Rob Owens]

If you're still having this problem, please post your /etc/apt/sources.list

- Original Message -
> From: "Udo Hennig" 
> Hi all,
> 
> I try out the step's below, but the first
> 
> 'apt-get upgrade'
> 
> will not work. I get many "500 Invalid Header" errors. One for each package.
> I started from an new Debian 7.1 Netinst (Wheezy) minimal installation.
> 
> Any ideas ?
> 
> 
> Udo Hennig
> 
> 
> Am 16.09.2015 um 16:30 schrieb Rob Owens:
>> This test is on a non-gui system.
>>
>> 'apt-get update'
>>
>> 'apt-get upgrade'
>>
>> 'apt-get remove libsystemd-login0'  # Not sure why this was installed
>> on my Wheezy system.  This operation also removed dbus.
>>
>> 'wget
>> http://packages.devuan.org/devuan/pool/main/d/devuan-baseconf/devuan-baseconf_0.6.4+devuan3_all.deb'
>>
>> 'dpkg -i devuan-baseconf_0.6.4+devuan3_all.deb'
>>
>> enter 'jessie' in place of the default value of 'ceres'
>>
>> remove debian sources from /etc/apt/sources.list (if this is a
>> required step, why not have the devuan-baseconf deb comment out
>> these sources?)
>>
>> 'apt-get update'
>>
>> 'apt-get install devuan-keyring'
>>
>> 'apt-get update'
>>
>> 'apt-get upgrade'
>>
>> 'apt-get update' -- just to be sure
>>
>> 'apt-get dist-upgrade'  # db5.1-util is kept back.  Many new
>> packages are installed, including dbus, samba, and qemu-kvm.
>>
>> 'aptitude search ~i | grep systemd' shows libsystemd0 is
>> installed, which was not present on my Wheezy system.  I
>> understand this is relatively benign, but I'm reporting it
>> to be complete.
>>
>> The machine boots without errors, and 'lsb_release -a' shows
>> that I am running Devuan.
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Re: [DNG] What can I do after netman?

[Edward Bartolo]

> Sure. Clicking on "Connected" would be fine. If possible, having it
> displayed on a second, below "Connected" without having to click, and in
> smaller type would be ok, too, but I'm guessing that's not as easy to code
> or might cause problems with the layout (spacing).
I will provide a small button next to "Connected". Using a hotlink may
require one to use a mouse.

> I don't understand your last sentence. What menu are you talking about?
The popup menu that is displayed when the systray icon is right clicked.

Edward

On 29/09/2015, fsmithred  wrote:
> Sure. Clicking on "Connected" would be fine. If possible, having it
> displayed on a second, below "Connected" without having to click, and in
> smaller type would be ok, too, but I'm guessing that's not as easy to code
> or might cause problems with the layout (spacing).
>
> I don't understand your last sentence. What menu are you talking about?
>
> fsr
>
>
>
> On 09/29/2015 04:58 AM, Edward Bartolo wrote:
>> I can provide more network connection information through a dialog
>> box. I am suggesting this to be invoked by clicking the word
>> 'Connected' or 'Disconnected'. I can make the latter behave like an
>> internet hotlink. I will also provide a menu item to invoke the dialog
>> box to minimize the number of clicks.
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> Edward
>>
>
>
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Re: [DNG] Devuan Constitu..?

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 28 Sep 2015 16:40:58 -0400
Hendrik Boom  wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 09:39:08PM +0200, natacha wrote:
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > Hash: SHA1
> > 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > 
> > On 09/28/2015 08:10 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
> > > Hi natacha,The first four sections look pretty standard.
> > Yes, it is standard and very minimal, by curiosity, which txt are
> > you talking about?
> > > But if you haven't done a fairly accurate assessment of how the
> > > community actually getswork done, it's highly unlikely that what
> > > is written about governance will reflect reality.
> > What is up there is only a draft for possible organisation, and I
> > agree needs to be grounded on the functioning of the community, this
> > is actually what this process is about.
> > 
> >  Insteadit will confuse and frustrate newcomers, who will be forced
> > to learn two sets of "rules"-- oneofficial one that's clear yet
> > largely ineffectual, the other unspoken, complex, and real.
> > (Thereare also many other problems that can happen from this, but
> > that alone should be sufficientto be persuasive.
> 
> Perhaps what we need is a document that describes how devuan does
> operate rather than one that says how it ought to operate.  A
> descriptive, rathr than a prescriptive document.
> 
> Maybe we'll need the prescriptve document later, but the descriptive
> one will do for now.

I completely understand the benefits of a written way of doing
things, but I'd like to point out one thing: the Debian bosses managed
to ram through systemd using (I'd characterize it as hiding behind)
their written ways of doing things.

So, as we consider the extent to which our society should be written
down, we should consider that some future members of our society might
not be as, for want of a better word, cool as we are. Remember, once
upon a time Debian was truly a righteous group.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
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[DNG] Purpose of an OS: was network device naming (was: What can I do after netman?)

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 29 Sep 2015 12:27:32 +0100
Rainer Weikusat  wrote:

> The whole point of having 'an operating system'
> is that it provides an abstract interface userspace software can use
> to interact with the physical components of a different computer
> according to the functions they're supposed to be provide, regardless
> of the way this particular computer happens to be assembled.

Does anyone else agree with me that in the preceding sentence Rainer
encapsulated the entire philosophy of people desiring simple and
logical software? Rainer, can I quote your preceding sentence elsewhere?

> Considering this, encoding details of the bus layout and current bus
> configuration in network interface names is just profoundly stupid.

I thought it was stupid for other reasons, but now that you mention it,
yeah, naming it after the particular slot into which it's plugged in is
stupid, and if you take the box apart and move things around, you can
break your OS.

SteveT

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[DNG] OpenRC: was s6-rc, a s6-based service manager for Unix systems

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 28 Sep 2015 16:05:22 -0400 (EDT)
Rob Owens  wrote:


> This system is supposed to mount several NFS shares
> on boot, but it always fails -- even when using openrc (which is
> dependency-based) on Funtoo.  

Am I the only person who doesn't like OpenRC? It can't respawn
(supervise, whatever you call it). Its init scripts are every bit as
complicated as those of sysvinit, but must be written in a special
language that's confusingly almost but not quite /bin/sh. To be
complete, therefore, it must spawn daemontools-encore or s6 to
supervise things like dhcpd and wpa_supplicant.

I agree that OpenRC is better than world-dominator systemd and Upstart,
but I'd choose sysvinit over it. And I'd *certainly* choose Epoch or
any of the daemontools inspired inits (or even Suckless Init +
daemontools-encore + LittKit) over it.

OpenRC? I just don't get it.

SteveT

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Re: [DNG] Purpose of an OS: was network device naming (was: What can I do after netman?)

[Timo Buhrmester]

> > The whole point of having 'an operating system'
> > is that it provides an abstract interface userspace software can use
> > to interact with the physical components of a different computer
> > according to the functions they're supposed to be provide, regardless
> > of the way this particular computer happens to be assembled.
> 
> Does anyone else agree with me that in the preceding sentence Rainer
> encapsulated the entire philosophy of people desiring simple and
> logical software? Rainer, can I quote your preceding sentence elsewhere?

Sounds more like a (rather accurate) explanation on what's the point
of an OS to me.  See Windows for an implementation of this idea that
does not rely on simple and logical software, so, IMO that isn't
implicit to what you quoted.


> > Considering this, encoding details of the bus layout and current bus
> > configuration in network interface names is just profoundly stupid.
> 
> I thought it was stupid for other reasons, but now that you mention it,
> yeah, naming it after the particular slot into which it's plugged in is
> stupid, and if you take the box apart and move things around, you can
> break your OS.

Couldn't agree more.
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Re: [DNG] Purpose of an OS: was network device naming (was: What can I do after netman?)

[Simon Hobson]

Steve Litt  wrote:

>> The whole point of having 'an operating system'
>> is that it provides an abstract interface userspace software can use
>> to interact with the physical components of a different computer
>> according to the functions they're supposed to be provide, regardless
>> of the way this particular computer happens to be assembled.
> 
> Does anyone else agree with me that in the preceding sentence Rainer
> encapsulated the entire philosophy of people desiring simple and
> logical software? Rainer, can I quote your preceding sentence elsewhere?

It seems a good summary to me.


>> Considering this, encoding details of the bus layout and current bus
>> configuration in network interface names is just profoundly stupid.
> 
> I thought it was stupid for other reasons, but now that you mention it,
> yeah, naming it after the particular slot into which it's plugged in is
> stupid, and if you take the box apart and move things around, you can
> break your OS.

Unfortunately, I think this is one of those areas with no right answer - only 
different levels of suckiness.

Constraining "the system" to always loads drivers in a specific order, and 
hence not randomly rename interfaces at boot time is wrong.

Using stupidly long/complicated device names based on physical location is 
wrong. Doubly wrong when location can be highly variable (as in USB devices)*

Using stupidly long/complicated device names incorporating the device serial 
number (or MAC) is wrong.

Using persistent rules files (as with Udev) is wrong.

However, I am happy with the way Udev does it. Booting a "new" system results 
in an initially random device ordering, but once it's created a rules file the 
devices stay stable until "something changes". When changing hardware, or 
shifting the image to new hardware, new devices get created and the admin needs 
to "fix" it - but TBH it's not hard to do.
IMO - the sort of person who cannot edit the system created rules file is also 
not likely to be running the sort of system where it matters. Eg, they are 
likely to be the sort of use who plugs a cable into a hole in the back of the 
computer, and "the system" takes care of enabling it and getting addresses via 
DHCP/autoconf - the user doesn't care if it's eth0, eth57, flurbleport29, or 
anything else as long as "the network works". If for some reason they replace a 
network card, it's not likely to matter to them that eth0 is now called eth1 - 
as long as "it just works".

I don't tend to use ethn anyway on bare metal systems - they all have Udev 
rules to set meaningful names like ethext, ethlan, ethint, and so on. Different 
on my Xen VMs (Debian [Sarge** ... Wheezy] as out of the box there doesn't seem 
to be a Udev rules file created and it's never bugged me enough to figure out 
why !

* I've only hearsay evidence from the screams of colleagues, but it seems that 
some Windows stuff (in this context, setting up automated backups) is sensitive 
to which port the disk is plugged into. As in, if the user plugs the backup 
disk into the wrong USB port, it gets a different drive letter (how 20th 
century !) and the backup (which uses drive letter and not anything more 
sensible) fails.

** Yup. still got one of those running !


There is something of a parallel with filesystems/disks - where the results of 
"getting it wrong" are more significant. I recall back when I had "a bit less 
experience" and the problem was fairly new, having issues with a system where 
disks came up in random order during boot (two different controllers). Now I 
generally use disk (filesystem) labels - though it's "annoying" that Debian 
doesn't support filesystem labels for Grub - which have the advantage of having 
their own persistent storage attached to the device, but the same problems when 
moving things around.
It certainly needs a little care when identifying disks/filesystems by label in 
Xen VM configs.

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Re: [DNG] OpenRC: was s6-rc, a s6-based service manager for Unix systems

[Timo Buhrmester]

> OpenRC? I just don't get it.
OpenRC is twisted because Linux people [are said to] not understand BSD;
Here's a median-length rc.d script (the one for inetd)
| #!/bin/sh
| #
| # $NetBSD: inetd,v 1.7 2004/08/13 18:08:03 mycroft Exp $
| #
| 
| # PROVIDE: inetd
| # REQUIRE: DAEMON LOGIN
| # KEYWORD: shutdown
N.B. These comments having a special meaning is the entirety of what you
call "a special language that's confusingly almost but not quite /bin/sh"
Bit of a stretch, if you ask me.
| 
| $_rc_subr_loaded . /etc/rc.subr
| 
| name="inetd"
| rcvar=$name
| command="/usr/sbin/${name}"
| pidfile="/var/run/${name}.pid"
| required_files="/etc/${name}.conf"
| extra_commands="reload"
| 
| load_rc_config $name
| run_rc_command "$1"

That's it.

> It can't respawn
Probably because people don't want this behavior.  Auto-respawn only
makes sense when you're "relying" on buggy software you already expect
to blow up, *and* are unwilling to debug it.  "Try turning it off
and on again", "A restart will fix it" is the Windows-way...

In all other cases (I can think of), respawning a crashed service
is exactly *not* what I want to happen (it could have crashed because
it was exploited, providing the attacker with unlimited attempts).
Or it could have crashed because there's an environmental problem
that isn't directly under the program's control, in which case
restarting it would just be pointless, because it likely can't start
at all.
Bonus points if the logs of the initial problem get rotated away due to
excessive retrying, or the core dump of the initial crash gets
overwritten...

Just my 2ct
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Re: [DNG] OpenRC: was s6-rc, a s6-based service manager for Unix systems

[Simon Hobson]

Timo Buhrmester  wrote:

> Probably because people don't want this behavior.  Auto-respawn only
> makes sense when you're "relying" on buggy software you already expect
> to blow up, *and* are unwilling to debug it.  "Try turning it off
> and on again", "A restart will fix it" is the Windows-way...
> 
> In all other cases (I can think of), respawning a crashed service
> is exactly *not* what I want to happen (it could have crashed because
> it was exploited, providing the attacker with unlimited attempts).
> Or it could have crashed because there's an environmental problem
> that isn't directly under the program's control, in which case
> restarting it would just be pointless, because it likely can't start
> at all.
> Bonus points if the logs of the initial problem get rotated away due to
> excessive retrying, or the core dump of the initial crash gets
> overwritten...

I think that's one of those "every admin will have their own ideas" things - 
and it'll vary with the system and what it's doing.

You're right, that in many cases it's best to just leave it dead and let the 
admin deal with it.
On the other hand, I've known even the best software occasionally quit for some 
random (and usually transient) reason.
And then there's the point you've raised - what if it's an exploit ? Well on 
the one hand, you let it stay down until you've determined that and fixed it. 
On the other hand, it means the attacker only has to hit once to cause a denial 
of service that lasts until some admin can deal with it - it may be better to 
have the service pop back up and provide some reduced quality of service than 
to provide no service at all. That is a question for those who know what the 
service is, and what all the different factors are.
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Re: [DNG] Purpose of an OS: was network device naming

[Rainer Weikusat]

Simon Hobson  writes:
> Steve Litt  wrote:
>>> The whole point of having 'an operating system'
>>> is that it provides an abstract interface userspace software can use
>>> to interact with the physical components of a different computer
>>> according to the functions they're supposed to be provide, regardless
>>> of the way this particular computer happens to be assembled.
>> 
>> Does anyone else agree with me that in the preceding sentence Rainer
>> encapsulated the entire philosophy of people desiring simple and
>> logical software? Rainer, can I quote your preceding sentence elsewhere?
>
> It seems a good summary to me.
>
>>> Considering this, encoding details of the bus layout and current bus
>>> configuration in network interface names is just profoundly stupid.
>> 
>> I thought it was stupid for other reasons, but now that you mention it,
>> yeah, naming it after the particular slot into which it's plugged in is
>> stupid, and if you take the box apart and move things around, you can
>> break your OS.
>
> Unfortunately, I think this is one of those areas with no right answer
> - only different levels of suckiness.
>
> Constraining "the system" to always loads drivers in a specific order,
> and hence not randomly rename interfaces at boot time is wrong.

Constraining userspace helper applications of very subordinate
importance to cooperate with the kernel even if their authors personally
disagree with this or that kernel design choice seems perfectly fine
to me: The kernel interface naming schemes relies on drivers being
initialized in probe order to be useful. Hence, it has to be done in
this way. Especially considering that there's nothing to gain by doing
it in some other way.

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Re: [DNG] OpenRC: was s6-rc, a s6-based service manager for Unix systems

[Rob Owens]

- Original Message -
> From: "Steve Litt" 
> 
> Am I the only person who doesn't like OpenRC? It can't respawn
> (supervise, whatever you call it). Its init scripts are every bit as
> complicated as those of sysvinit, but must be written in a special
> language that's confusingly almost but not quite /bin/sh. To be
> complete, therefore, it must spawn daemontools-encore or s6 to
> supervise things like dhcpd and wpa_supplicant.

One thing that I think is smart about OpenRC is the way variables
are set in a file other than the init script itself.  If you want 
to make some customizations, you don't edit the init script.  You 
edit the corresponding file in /etc/conf.d.  It seems like this 
could make maintaining scripts easier, and make them usable on a
wider variety of distros.

One thing I like about OpenRC and sysvinit is that they are shell
scripts.  Shell script is a language that many sysadmins already
know.  If they don't, they certainly wouldn't be wasting their time 
by learning it.  It is useful way beyond init systems.

If I wanted to automatically respawn something (and I might try 
this on my MythTV backend which crashes every few months), I could
create this script:

#!/bin/sh
while true; do
/start/my/daemon "$@"
done

My init system could call that script to start my daemon.  Then to
stop the daemon it would have to kill both the script and the 
daemon.  

Some would call that an ugly hack, but it's also known as 
flexibility.  And it's one of the things I like about 
shell-script-based init systems.  I didn't even know how to do
this until 5 minutes ago, but I was able to search "linux 
automatically respawn process".  And I was handed a shell script.
Not a systemd script.  Not an upstart script or a daemontools
script or a runit script.  

My point is that shell script may be primitive by comparison to
the methods used by some other inits, but its power is in its
ubiquitousness.

By the way, I'm fairly new to OpenRC so I can't really recommend
it over other inits.  I only intended to point out some things
that I consider strong points.

-Rob
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Re: [DNG] Purpose of an OS: was network device naming

[Rainer Weikusat]

Simon Hobson  writes:

[...]

> However, I am happy with the way Udev does it. Booting a "new" system
> results in an initially random device ordering, but once it's created
> a rules file the devices stay stable until "something changes". When
> changing hardware, or shifting the image to new hardware, new devices
> get created and the admin needs to "fix" it - but TBH it's not hard to
> do.

In order to avoid this on a system using the previous/ traditional/
legacy udev scheme for wreaking havoc on a statically configured system
(on Debian), a file named

/etc/udev/rules.d/75-persistent-net-generator.rules

can be created (may be empty).
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Re: [DNG] OpenRC: was s6-rc, a s6-based service manager for Unix systems

[Timo Buhrmester]

> what if it's an exploit ? [...] it means the attacker only has to hit
> once to cause a denial of service that lasts until some admin can deal
> with it
I'd pick a one-hit DoS over unlimited attempts to execute code every day.

But yes, you're right that it heavily depends on what service we're
talking about + external factors. I was just trying to explain why
(I believe) rc.d and hence OpenRC do not auto-respawn.
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Re: [DNG] OpenRC: was s6-rc, a s6-based service manager for Unix systems

[Laurent Bercot]

On 29/09/2015 17:34, Timo Buhrmester wrote:

It can't respawn

Probably because people don't want this behavior.  Auto-respawn only
makes sense when you're "relying" on buggy software you already expect
to blow up, *and* are unwilling to debug it.  "Try turning it off
and on again", "A restart will fix it" is the Windows-way...


 That's a common mistake, but a mistake nonetheless. In an ideal world,
process supervision may not be necessary, but we don't live in an
ideal world. Software crashes happen. Even software without bugs can
hit a temporary failure (out of memory, for instance) and exit; the
conditions can then change, but without supervision, your process is
dead until manual intervention.
 Process supervision also provides the admin with better tools to
manage processes, for instance the ability to reliably send signals
to them without .pid files.

 Process supervision is *not*, and should not be, a crutch to help
buggy software run. Pretending that it is its goal is a straw man
argument.



In all other cases (I can think of), respawning a crashed service
is exactly *not* what I want to happen (it could have crashed because
it was exploited, providing the attacker with unlimited attempts).


 A service being respawned does not preclude the system from sending
an alert when it crashes. Critical services *should* be monitored by
an alert system.
 Also, as Simon says (pun unintended): if an attacker can crash the
service, what is better: that the attacker can trivially DoS your
service with one attack, or that he has to try again and again in
order to DoS you?



Or it could have crashed because there's an environmental problem
that isn't directly under the program's control, in which case
restarting it would just be pointless, because it likely can't start
at all.


 You don't know that in advance. Some failures will be permanent, in
which case you'll most likely notice them as soon as you start the
service for the first time and can address the problem; other failures
are temporary, and that's where process supervision is a good thing to
have.



Bonus points if the logs of the initial problem get rotated away due to
excessive retrying, or the core dump of the initial crash gets
overwritten...


 If your admins did not prepare for this and write correct scripts
to save the core dumps to a safe place, or save crash logs to a place
where they won't be rotated away, this is a problem with your admins,
not with process supervision.

 Ultimately, process supervision is a tool, and a good tool. It should
be a decision for the sysadmin to use it or not to use it; the decision
should not be enforced by the rc system. As Steve says, it is an
oversight of OpenRC to not provide the *possibility* of process
supervision.

--
 Laurent

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Re: [DNG] OpenRC: was s6-rc, a s6-based service manager for Unix systems

[Timo Buhrmester]

On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 06:45:25PM +0200, Laurent Bercot wrote:
> On 29/09/2015 17:34, Timo Buhrmester wrote:
> >>It can't respawn
> >Probably because people don't want this behavior.  Auto-respawn only
> >makes sense when you're "relying" on buggy software you already expect
> >to blow up, *and* are unwilling to debug it.  "Try turning it off
> >and on again", "A restart will fix it" is the Windows-way...
> 
> In an ideal world, process supervision may not be necessary, but we
> don't live in an ideal world. Software crashes happen.
The question is, how often do they happen. Even in the real world,
we have mature software that does *not* blow up out of the blue.
And, in the real world, occasionally we debug our software, if it
does blow up.

>  Process supervision is *not*, and should not be, a crutch to help
> buggy software run. Pretending that it is its goal is a straw man
> argument.
I didn't even mean to start an argument.

> if an attacker can crash the service, what is better:
> that the attacker can trivially DoS your service with one attack,
> or that he has to try again and again in order to DoS you?
I forgot that it's 2015 and the only thing attackers do is DoS anymore.

If an attacker can crash the service, he might deliver a payload in the
process of crashing it. What is better, an attacker having one, or 
and attacker having unlimited attempts to do this?

> >Or it could have crashed because there's an environmental problem
> >that isn't directly under the program's control, in which case
> >restarting it would just be pointless, because it likely can't start
> >at all.
> 
>  You don't know that in advance.
Hence the words "could" and "likely".  And yes, I do think there is a
correlation between "cannot run" and "cannot start", but YMMV.

> Other failures are temporary, and that's where process supervision is
> a good thing to have.
Yes, in that case, it's a good thing to have.  But as you said, you
can't know this in advance, and in other situations the service
being restarted automatically can have severe security implications,
in which case it would definitely *not* be a good thing to have.


> >Bonus points if the logs of the initial problem get rotated away due to
> >excessive retrying, or the core dump of the initial crash gets
> >overwritten...
> 
>  If your admins did not prepare for this and write correct scripts
> to save the core dumps to a safe place, or save crash logs to a place
> where they won't be rotated away, this is a problem with your admins,
> not with process supervision.
You might not be able to keep every core dump and every log file for a 
service that core dumps when starting and gets respwaned over and over 
again.

>  Ultimately, process supervision is a tool, and a good tool. It should
> be a decision for the sysadmin to use it or not to use it; the decision
> should not be enforced by the rc system. As Steve says, it is an
> oversight of OpenRC to not provide the *possibility* of process
> supervision.
Yes, and yes, maybe.  In the end, I don't care what OpenRC is doing,
and the purpose of my reply wasn't to argue for or against supervision,
but merely to explain why OpenRC does what it does (or does not).

Anyway, let's not turn this into a full-scale argument on the pros and
cons of supervision and/or OpenRC.
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Re: [DNG] New mirror of Devuan 100% free

[Daniel Reurich]

On 30/09/15 02:15, tilt! wrote:

Ok! :) One more question:

Suppose at some point a new mirror had to be set up (for example
in Australia).

Is the mirror then just a copy of a directory - for example,
"/dists/devuan" on an FTP or HTTP server - or does it require actively
running software for self-maintainance (like the "rebuild" operation
you have described)?

Only for the /devuan repo.  The /merged repo uses url rewriting to refer 
to /devuan, deb-multimedia, and debian using amprolla.  So you will need 
to replicate packages.devuan.org/devuan and run amprolla which does the 
url rewriting and will need to be configured to redirect to your nearest 
upstream mirrors.


Regards,
Daniel

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Re: [DNG] OpenRC: was s6-rc, a s6-based service manager for Unix systems

[Rainer Weikusat]

Timo Buhrmester  writes:
>> OpenRC? I just don't get it.

[...]

>> It can't respawn
> Probably because people don't want this behavior.  Auto-respawn only
> makes sense when you're "relying" on buggy software you already expect
> to blow up, *and* are unwilling to debug it.

I expect that all software I'm "relying" on is buggy and will blow up,
given enough opportunities to do so. I'm also extremely unwilling to
debug a problem which caused a VPN outage in Texas at 18:00 local time
in real time as that's midnight UK time, especially if I already
worked a complete work day before this time. And there are a few
thousand impatient people who are unwilling (and very much so) to be
without internet access until the problem was debugged and fixed.
Lastly, the people who employ are very unwilling to let me debug
anything unless they consider it important ...
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Re: [DNG] live-build

[Ozi Traveller]

Hi Aitor.

I ran the following and I'm still getting this error.
E: Release signed by unknown key (key id CBF8D6FD518E17E1)

Ozi



lb clean --purge

lb init

lb config -a amd64 \
--binary-images iso \
--distribution jessie \
--win32-loader false \
--checksums md5 \
--archive-areas "main" \
--apt-recommends false \
--apt aptitude \
--apt-options --yes \
--build-with-chroot false \
--bootappend-live "boot=live config locales=en_US.UTF-8
keyboard-layouts=en" \
--bootappend-live "boot=live config username=user" \
--bootappend-live "boot=live config full_username=User" \
--bootappend-live "boot=live config hostname=devuan" \
--parent-mirror-bootstrap="http://ftp.au.mirror.devuan.org/merged/"; \
--parent-mirror-chroot="http://ftp.au.mirror.devuan.org/merged/"; \
--parent-mirror-debian-installer="http://ftp.au.mirror.devuan.org/merged/"; \
--mirror-bootstrap="http://ftp.au.mirror.devuan.org/merged/"; \
--mirror-chroot="http://ftp.au.mirror.devuan.org/merged/"; \
--mirror-debian-installer="http://ftp.au.mirror.devuan.org/merged/";

lb bootstrap && lb chroot

[2015-09-30 06:05:44] lb build noauto
P: live-build 4.0.3
P: Building config tree for a debian/jessie/amd64 system
[2015-09-30 06:05:44] lb bootstrap
P: Setting up cleanup function
[2015-09-30 06:05:44] lb bootstrap_cache restore
P: Restoring bootstrap stage from cache...
[2015-09-30 06:05:44] lb bootstrap_cdebootstrap
[2015-09-30 06:05:45] lb bootstrap_debootstrap
P: Begin bootstrapping system...
P: If the following stage fails, the most likely cause of the problem is
with your mirror configuration or a caching proxy.
P: Running debootstrap (download-only)...
I: Retrieving Release
I: Retrieving Release.gpg
I: Checking Release signature
E: Release signed by unknown key (key id CBF8D6FD518E17E1)
P: Begin unmounting filesystems...
P: Saving caches...
chroot: failed to run command ‘/usr/bin/env’: No such file or directory

On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 1:38 PM, aitor_czr  wrote:

> You must change default mirrors:
>
> lb config -a amd64 \
> --binary-images iso \
> --distribution jessie \
> --win32-loader false \
> --checksums md5 \
> --archive-areas "main" \
> --apt-recommends false \
> --apt aptitude \
> --apt-options --yes \
> --build-with-chroot false \
> --bootappend-live "boot=live config locales=en_US.UTF-8
> keyboard-layouts=en" \
> --bootappend-live "boot=live config username=user" \
> --bootappend-live "boot=live config full_username=User" \
> --bootappend-live "boot=live config hostname=devuan" \
> --parent-mirror-bootstrap="http://ftp.es.mirror.devuan.org/merged/";
>  \
> --parent-mirror-chroot="http://ftp.es.mirror.devuan.org/merged/";
>  \
> --parent-mirror-debian-installer=
> "http://ftp.es.mirror.devuan.org/merged/";
>  \
> --mirror-bootstrap="http://ftp.es.mirror.devuan.org/merged/";
>  \
> --mirror-chroot="http://ftp.es.mirror.devuan.org/merged/";
>  \
> --mirror-debian-installer="http://ftp.es.mirror.devuan.org/merged/";
> 
>
> Aitor.
>
> On 28/09/15 22:26, Ozi Traveller wrote:
>
> Hi Aitor.
>
> I ran the following and got this error.
> E: Release signed by unknown key (key id CBF8D6FD518E17E1)
>
> Ozi
>
> lb clean --purge
>
> lb init
>
> lb config -a amd64 \
>   --binary-images iso \
>   --distribution jessie \
>   --win32-loader false \
>   --checksums md5 \
>   --archive-areas "main" \
>   --apt-recommends false \
>   --apt aptitude \
>   --apt-options --yes \
>   --build-with-chroot false \
>   --bootappend-live "boot=live config locales=en_US.UTF-8
> keyboard-layouts=en" \
>   --bootappend-live "boot=live config username=user" \
>   --bootappend-live "boot=live config full_username=User" \
>   --bootappend-live "boot=live config hostname=devuan"
>
>
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Re: [DNG] live-build

[Daniel Reurich]

Hi Ozi,

It's possible that live-build doesn't have the correct public key for 
the devuan repository on hand.


D

On 30/09/15 09:11, Ozi Traveller wrote:

Hi Aitor.

I ran the following and I'm still getting this error.
E: Release signed by unknown key (key id CBF8D6FD518E17E1)

Ozi



lb clean --purge

lb init

lb config -a amd64 \
--binary-images iso \
--distribution jessie \
--win32-loader false \
--checksums md5 \
--archive-areas "main" \
--apt-recommends false \
--apt aptitude \
--apt-options --yes \
--build-with-chroot false \
--bootappend-live "boot=live config locales=en_US.UTF-8
keyboard-layouts=en" \
--bootappend-live "boot=live config username=user" \
--bootappend-live "boot=live config full_username=User" \
--bootappend-live "boot=live config hostname=devuan" \
--parent-mirror-bootstrap="http://ftp.au.mirror.devuan.org/merged/"; \
--parent-mirror-chroot="http://ftp.au.mirror.devuan.org/merged/"; \
--parent-mirror-debian-installer="http://ftp.au.mirror.devuan.org/merged/"; \
--mirror-bootstrap="http://ftp.au.mirror.devuan.org/merged/"; \
--mirror-chroot="http://ftp.au.mirror.devuan.org/merged/"; \
--mirror-debian-installer="http://ftp.au.mirror.devuan.org/merged/";

lb bootstrap && lb chroot

[2015-09-30 06:05:44] lb build noauto
P: live-build 4.0.3
P: Building config tree for a debian/jessie/amd64 system
[2015-09-30 06:05:44] lb bootstrap
P: Setting up cleanup function
[2015-09-30 06:05:44] lb bootstrap_cache restore
P: Restoring bootstrap stage from cache...
[2015-09-30 06:05:44] lb bootstrap_cdebootstrap
[2015-09-30 06:05:45] lb bootstrap_debootstrap
P: Begin bootstrapping system...
P: If the following stage fails, the most likely cause of the problem is
with your mirror configuration or a caching proxy.
P: Running debootstrap (download-only)...
I: Retrieving Release
I: Retrieving Release.gpg
I: Checking Release signature
E: Release signed by unknown key (key id CBF8D6FD518E17E1)
P: Begin unmounting filesystems...
P: Saving caches...
chroot: failed to run command ‘/usr/bin/env’: No such file or directory

On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 1:38 PM, aitor_czr mailto:aitor_...@gnuinos.org>> wrote:

You must change default mirrors:

lb config -a amd64 \
 --binary-images iso \
 --distribution jessie \
 --win32-loader false \
 --checksums md5 \
 --archive-areas "main" \
 --apt-recommends false \
 --apt aptitude \
 --apt-options --yes \
 --build-with-chroot false \
 --bootappend-live "boot=live config locales=en_US.UTF-8
keyboard-layouts=en" \
 --bootappend-live "boot=live config username=user" \
 --bootappend-live "boot=live config full_username=User" \
 --bootappend-live "boot=live config hostname=devuan" \
--parent-mirror-bootstrap="http://ftp.es.mirror.devuan.org/merged/";
 \
--parent-mirror-chroot="http://ftp.es.mirror.devuan.org/merged/";
 \
--parent-mirror-debian-installer="http://ftp.es.mirror.devuan.org/merged/";
 \
 --mirror-bootstrap="http://ftp.es.mirror.devuan.org/merged/";
 \
 --mirror-chroot="http://ftp.es.mirror.devuan.org/merged/";
 \
--mirror-debian-installer="http://ftp.es.mirror.devuan.org/merged/";


Aitor.

On 28/09/15 22:26, Ozi Traveller wrote:

Hi Aitor.

I ran the following and got this error.
E: Release signed by unknown key (key id CBF8D6FD518E17E1)

Ozi

lb clean --purge

lb init

lb config -a amd64 \
  --binary-images iso \
  --distribution jessie \
  --win32-loader false \
  --checksums md5 \
  --archive-areas "main" \
  --apt-recommends false \
  --apt aptitude \
  --apt-options --yes \
  --build-with-chroot false \
  --bootappend-live "boot=live config locales=en_US.UTF-8
keyboard-layouts=en" \
  --bootappend-live "boot=live config username=user" \
  --bootappend-live "boot=live config full_username=User" \
  --bootappend-live "boot=live config hostname=devuan"





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Re: [DNG] What can I do after netman?

[Edward Bartolo]

Hi All,

This is the new netman's dialog displaying Network Information.
http://s1.postimg.org/5qx5y6vxr/2015_09_29_08_1600x900_scrot.png

Please, give feedback about the new dialog box.

Edward

On 29/09/2015, Edward Bartolo  wrote:
>> Sure. Clicking on "Connected" would be fine. If possible, having it
>> displayed on a second, below "Connected" without having to click, and in
>> smaller type would be ok, too, but I'm guessing that's not as easy to
>> code
>> or might cause problems with the layout (spacing).
> I will provide a small button next to "Connected". Using a hotlink may
> require one to use a mouse.
>
>> I don't understand your last sentence. What menu are you talking about?
> The popup menu that is displayed when the systray icon is right clicked.
>
> Edward
>
> On 29/09/2015, fsmithred  wrote:
>> Sure. Clicking on "Connected" would be fine. If possible, having it
>> displayed on a second, below "Connected" without having to click, and in
>> smaller type would be ok, too, but I'm guessing that's not as easy to
>> code
>> or might cause problems with the layout (spacing).
>>
>> I don't understand your last sentence. What menu are you talking about?
>>
>> fsr
>>
>>
>>
>> On 09/29/2015 04:58 AM, Edward Bartolo wrote:
>>> I can provide more network connection information through a dialog
>>> box. I am suggesting this to be invoked by clicking the word
>>> 'Connected' or 'Disconnected'. I can make the latter behave like an
>>> internet hotlink. I will also provide a menu item to invoke the dialog
>>> box to minimize the number of clicks.
>>>
>>> What do you think?
>>>
>>> Edward
>>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: [DNG] New mirror of Devuan 100% free

[tilt!]

Hi Daniel,

On 09/29/2015 09:30 PM, Daniel Reurich wrote:
> On 30/09/15 02:15, tilt! wrote:
>> Suppose at some point a new mirror had to be set up (for example
>> in Australia).
>>
>> Is the mirror then just a copy of a directory - for example,
>> "/dists/devuan" on an FTP or HTTP server - or does it require actively
>> running software for self-maintainance (like the "rebuild" operation
>> you have described)?
>>
> Only for the /devuan repo.  The /merged repo uses url rewriting to
> refer to /devuan, deb-multimedia, and debian using amprolla.
> So you will need to replicate packages.devuan.org/devuan and run
> amprolla which does the url rewriting and will need to be configured
> to redirect to your nearest upstream mirrors.

Ok, because i got an inquiry on #devuan asking if there is or will be
a mirror in AARNET (Australian Research and Education Network).

Users in there are very bandwidth-limited, i.e. they need stuff to be
inside the AARNET network.

AARNET runs a mirror of lots of free software at

http://mirror.aarnet.edu.au/

They claim to be liberal about what  they consider for mirroring, but my
understanding is that it has to be a "passive" directory of data; an active
software can not be run there, unless we find volunteers maintaining it.

Again, main goal of that mirror was for users to have the bulk of the
traffic inside AARNET, which is free for them; therefore, if a mirror can
host all the .deb, while some external site hosts generated Packages files,
my guess is, that would not be a showstopper.

Also, i bring this forth to discussion on an exemplary basis, and to further
my understanding of how Devuan mirroring works.

Best regards,
T.

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Re: [DNG] What can I do after netman?

[fsmithred]

Edward,

Thanks! It looks good. I can't really see the back window, but I think
maybe it looks better with the buttons on the side.

You probably don't need to list the loopback, but I'm guessing it's there
because it's easier to leave it than to take it out.

fsr


On 09/29/2015 04:30 PM, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> This is the new netman's dialog displaying Network Information.
> http://s1.postimg.org/5qx5y6vxr/2015_09_29_08_1600x900_scrot.png
> 
> Please, give feedback about the new dialog box.
> 
> Edward
> 
> On 29/09/2015, Edward Bartolo  wrote:
>>> Sure. Clicking on "Connected" would be fine. If possible, having it
>>> displayed on a second, below "Connected" without having to click, and in
>>> smaller type would be ok, too, but I'm guessing that's not as easy to
>>> code
>>> or might cause problems with the layout (spacing).
>> I will provide a small button next to "Connected". Using a hotlink may
>> require one to use a mouse.
>>
>>> I don't understand your last sentence. What menu are you talking about?
>> The popup menu that is displayed when the systray icon is right clicked.
>>
>> Edward
>>
>> On 29/09/2015, fsmithred  wrote:
>>> Sure. Clicking on "Connected" would be fine. If possible, having it
>>> displayed on a second, below "Connected" without having to click, and in
>>> smaller type would be ok, too, but I'm guessing that's not as easy to
>>> code
>>> or might cause problems with the layout (spacing).
>>>
>>> I don't understand your last sentence. What menu are you talking about?
>>>
>>> fsr
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 09/29/2015 04:58 AM, Edward Bartolo wrote:
 I can provide more network connection information through a dialog
 box. I am suggesting this to be invoked by clicking the word
 'Connected' or 'Disconnected'. I can make the latter behave like an
 internet hotlink. I will also provide a menu item to invoke the dialog
 box to minimize the number of clicks.

 What do you think?

 Edward

>>>
>>>
>>

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Re: [DNG] live-build

[Ozi Traveller]

Hi Daniel

Thanks, hopefully this can be rectified. I'd really like to get a build out
and keep up with the devuan releases.

Cheers
Ozi

On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 6:24 AM, Daniel Reurich 
wrote:

> Hi Ozi,
>
> It's possible that live-build doesn't have the correct public key for the
> devuan repository on hand.
>
> D
>
> On 30/09/15 09:11, Ozi Traveller wrote:
>
>> Hi Aitor.
>>
>> I ran the following and I'm still getting this error.
>> E: Release signed by unknown key (key id CBF8D6FD518E17E1)
>>
>> Ozi
>>
>>
>>
>> lb clean --purge
>>
>> lb init
>>
>> lb config -a amd64 \
>> --binary-images iso \
>> --distribution jessie \
>> --win32-loader false \
>> --checksums md5 \
>> --archive-areas "main" \
>> --apt-recommends false \
>> --apt aptitude \
>> --apt-options --yes \
>> --build-with-chroot false \
>> --bootappend-live "boot=live config locales=en_US.UTF-8
>> keyboard-layouts=en" \
>> --bootappend-live "boot=live config username=user" \
>> --bootappend-live "boot=live config full_username=User" \
>> --bootappend-live "boot=live config hostname=devuan" \
>> --parent-mirror-bootstrap="http://ftp.au.mirror.devuan.org/merged/"; \
>> --parent-mirror-chroot="http://ftp.au.mirror.devuan.org/merged/"; \
>> --parent-mirror-debian-installer="http://ftp.au.mirror.devuan.org/merged/";
>> \
>> --mirror-bootstrap="http://ftp.au.mirror.devuan.org/merged/"; \
>> --mirror-chroot="http://ftp.au.mirror.devuan.org/merged/"; \
>> --mirror-debian-installer="http://ftp.au.mirror.devuan.org/merged/";
>>
>> lb bootstrap && lb chroot
>>
>> [2015-09-30 06:05:44] lb build noauto
>> P: live-build 4.0.3
>> P: Building config tree for a debian/jessie/amd64 system
>> [2015-09-30 06:05:44] lb bootstrap
>> P: Setting up cleanup function
>> [2015-09-30 06:05:44] lb bootstrap_cache restore
>> P: Restoring bootstrap stage from cache...
>> [2015-09-30 06:05:44] lb bootstrap_cdebootstrap
>> [2015-09-30 06:05:45] lb bootstrap_debootstrap
>> P: Begin bootstrapping system...
>> P: If the following stage fails, the most likely cause of the problem is
>> with your mirror configuration or a caching proxy.
>> P: Running debootstrap (download-only)...
>> I: Retrieving Release
>> I: Retrieving Release.gpg
>> I: Checking Release signature
>> E: Release signed by unknown key (key id CBF8D6FD518E17E1)
>> P: Begin unmounting filesystems...
>> P: Saving caches...
>> chroot: failed to run command ‘/usr/bin/env’: No such file or directory
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 1:38 PM, aitor_czr > > wrote:
>>
>> You must change default mirrors:
>>
>> lb config -a amd64 \
>>  --binary-images iso \
>>  --distribution jessie \
>>  --win32-loader false \
>>  --checksums md5 \
>>  --archive-areas "main" \
>>  --apt-recommends false \
>>  --apt aptitude \
>>  --apt-options --yes \
>>  --build-with-chroot false \
>>  --bootappend-live "boot=live config locales=en_US.UTF-8
>> keyboard-layouts=en" \
>>  --bootappend-live "boot=live config username=user" \
>>  --bootappend-live "boot=live config full_username=User" \
>>  --bootappend-live "boot=live config hostname=devuan" \
>> --parent-mirror-bootstrap="http://ftp.es.mirror.devuan.org/merged/";
>>  \
>> --parent-mirror-chroot="http://ftp.es.mirror.devuan.org/merged/";
>>  \
>> --parent-mirror-debian-installer="
>> http://ftp.es.mirror.devuan.org/merged/";
>>  \
>>  --mirror-bootstrap="http://ftp.es.mirror.devuan.org/merged/";
>>  \
>>  --mirror-chroot="http://ftp.es.mirror.devuan.org/merged/";
>>  \
>> --mirror-debian-installer="http://ftp.es.mirror.devuan.org/merged/";
>> 
>>
>> Aitor.
>>
>> On 28/09/15 22:26, Ozi Traveller wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Aitor.
>>>
>>> I ran the following and got this error.
>>> E: Release signed by unknown key (key id CBF8D6FD518E17E1)
>>>
>>> Ozi
>>>
>>> lb clean --purge
>>>
>>> lb init
>>>
>>> lb config -a amd64 \
>>>   --binary-images iso \
>>>   --distribution jessie \
>>>   --win32-loader false \
>>>   --checksums md5 \
>>>   --archive-areas "main" \
>>>   --apt-recommends false \
>>>   --apt aptitude \
>>>   --apt-options --yes \
>>>   --build-with-chroot false \
>>>   --bootappend-live "boot=live config locales=en_US.UTF-8
>>> keyboard-layouts=en" \
>>>   --bootappend-live "boot=live config username=user" \
>>>   --bootappend-live "boot=live config full_username=User" \
>>>   --bootappend-live "boot=live config hostname=devuan"
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> Dn

Re: [DNG] What can I do after netman?

[Edward Bartolo]

Hi fsmithred,

Are you suggesting me to remove the lines starting with lo? If that is
the case, it can be done.

Thanks

On 30/09/2015, fsmithred  wrote:
> Edward,
>
> Thanks! It looks good. I can't really see the back window, but I think
> maybe it looks better with the buttons on the side.
>
> You probably don't need to list the loopback, but I'm guessing it's there
> because it's easier to leave it than to take it out.
>
> fsr
>
>
> On 09/29/2015 04:30 PM, Edward Bartolo wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> This is the new netman's dialog displaying Network Information.
>> http://s1.postimg.org/5qx5y6vxr/2015_09_29_08_1600x900_scrot.png
>>
>> Please, give feedback about the new dialog box.
>>
>> Edward
>>
>> On 29/09/2015, Edward Bartolo  wrote:
 Sure. Clicking on "Connected" would be fine. If possible, having it
 displayed on a second, below "Connected" without having to click, and
 in
 smaller type would be ok, too, but I'm guessing that's not as easy to
 code
 or might cause problems with the layout (spacing).
>>> I will provide a small button next to "Connected". Using a hotlink may
>>> require one to use a mouse.
>>>
 I don't understand your last sentence. What menu are you talking about?
>>> The popup menu that is displayed when the systray icon is right clicked.
>>>
>>> Edward
>>>
>>> On 29/09/2015, fsmithred  wrote:
 Sure. Clicking on "Connected" would be fine. If possible, having it
 displayed on a second, below "Connected" without having to click, and
 in
 smaller type would be ok, too, but I'm guessing that's not as easy to
 code
 or might cause problems with the layout (spacing).

 I don't understand your last sentence. What menu are you talking about?

 fsr



 On 09/29/2015 04:58 AM, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> I can provide more network connection information through a dialog
> box. I am suggesting this to be invoked by clicking the word
> 'Connected' or 'Disconnected'. I can make the latter behave like an
> internet hotlink. I will also provide a menu item to invoke the dialog
> box to minimize the number of clicks.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Edward
>


>>>
>
>
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Re: [DNG] OpenRC: was s6-rc, a s6-based service manager for Unix systems

[Isaac Dunham]

On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 11:00:23AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Sep 2015 16:05:22 -0400 (EDT)
> Rob Owens  wrote:
> 
> 
> > This system is supposed to mount several NFS shares
> > on boot, but it always fails -- even when using openrc (which is
> > dependency-based) on Funtoo.  
> 
> Am I the only person who doesn't like OpenRC? It can't respawn
> (supervise, whatever you call it). Its init scripts are every bit as
> complicated as those of sysvinit, but must be written in a special
Huh?

#!/sbin/openrc-run

name="busybox cron"
command="/usr/sbin/crond"
pidfile="/var/run/crond.pid"
command_args="$CRON_OPTS"

depend() {
need localmount
need logger
}

That's cron on my Alpine system; it's configureable in /etc/conf.d/cron.

OpenRC can automatically figure out how to start a daemon based on the
command and so on.
The script author doesn't need to set a series of rather obscure
options in a magic comment block; he just writes
need ...
before ...
after ...

And the system administrator doesn't need to fight to add it to a custom
runlevel, or remove it from a default runlevel.
> language that's confusingly almost but not quite /bin/sh. To be

Not quite /bin/sh?
My research indicates that it basically sets up a custom
environment in a /bin/sh script that sources the one you use:
see /lib/rc/sh/openrc-run.sh for more.

If you're referring to the commands, those don't determine the language:
shell script was designed to be extensible by adding new commands.
And any *good* sysvinit script uses several "commands" that are
really shell functions.

> complete, therefore, it must spawn daemontools-encore or s6 to
> supervise things like dhcpd and wpa_supplicant.
True.
But it does integrate some support for that, rather than requiring
the user to figure it out from scratch. 

> I agree that OpenRC is better than world-dominator systemd and Upstart,
> but I'd choose sysvinit over it. And I'd *certainly* choose Epoch or
> any of the daemontools inspired inits (or even Suckless Init +
> daemontools-encore + LittKit) over it.

Pedantry: OpenRC competes with sysv-rc, not sysvinit.
Some of the daemontools-style stuff are rc systems, some include init.

> OpenRC? I just don't get it.

Simple:
It's POSIX sh like sysv-rc, minus the boilerplate...stuff like
### BEGIN INIT INFO
# Provides:  
# Required-Start: 
# Required-Stop:
# ...
### END INIT INFO

[ -e /etc/default/$NAME ] && . /etc/default/$NAME
...
case "$1" in
  start)
...
;;
  stop)
...
;;
  ...)
;;
  esac

is stripped down to the depends() function and optionally extra_commands="".
It's also *more* obvious, since you use a shell fuction rather than a
magic comment block.
It handles pretty-printing the status for you, but that's just the icing
on the cake:
most of the functionality that's implemented in shell functions calling
several external helpers in sysv-rc is instead handled in a fairly small
multi-call binary.
And it works close enough to sysv-rc overall that it's fairly easy to
make the move...only a lot of the things that were less obvious now have
simple tools.


Thanks,
Isaac Dunham
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Re: [DNG] What can I do after netman?

[Edward Bartolo]

Screenshot showing main GUI and dialog.
http://s1.postimg.org/94xipt3qn/2015_09_30_083837_1600x900_scrot.png

On 30/09/2015, Edward Bartolo  wrote:
> Hi fsmithred,
>
> Are you suggesting me to remove the lines starting with lo? If that is
> the case, it can be done.
>
> Thanks
>
> On 30/09/2015, fsmithred  wrote:
>> Edward,
>>
>> Thanks! It looks good. I can't really see the back window, but I think
>> maybe it looks better with the buttons on the side.
>>
>> You probably don't need to list the loopback, but I'm guessing it's there
>> because it's easier to leave it than to take it out.
>>
>> fsr
>>
>>
>> On 09/29/2015 04:30 PM, Edward Bartolo wrote:
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> This is the new netman's dialog displaying Network Information.
>>> http://s1.postimg.org/5qx5y6vxr/2015_09_29_08_1600x900_scrot.png
>>>
>>> Please, give feedback about the new dialog box.
>>>
>>> Edward
>>>
>>> On 29/09/2015, Edward Bartolo  wrote:
> Sure. Clicking on "Connected" would be fine. If possible, having it
> displayed on a second, below "Connected" without having to click, and
> in
> smaller type would be ok, too, but I'm guessing that's not as easy to
> code
> or might cause problems with the layout (spacing).
 I will provide a small button next to "Connected". Using a hotlink may
 require one to use a mouse.

> I don't understand your last sentence. What menu are you talking
> about?
 The popup menu that is displayed when the systray icon is right
 clicked.

 Edward

 On 29/09/2015, fsmithred  wrote:
> Sure. Clicking on "Connected" would be fine. If possible, having it
> displayed on a second, below "Connected" without having to click, and
> in
> smaller type would be ok, too, but I'm guessing that's not as easy to
> code
> or might cause problems with the layout (spacing).
>
> I don't understand your last sentence. What menu are you talking
> about?
>
> fsr
>
>
>
> On 09/29/2015 04:58 AM, Edward Bartolo wrote:
>> I can provide more network connection information through a dialog
>> box. I am suggesting this to be invoked by clicking the word
>> 'Connected' or 'Disconnected'. I can make the latter behave like an
>> internet hotlink. I will also provide a menu item to invoke the
>> dialog
>> box to minimize the number of clicks.
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> Edward
>>
>
>

>>
>>
>
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Re: [DNG] What can I do after netman?

[Edward Bartolo]

Display of 'lo' lines removed. Latest changes uploaded to git.devuan.org.

On 30/09/2015, Edward Bartolo  wrote:
> Screenshot showing main GUI and dialog.
> http://s1.postimg.org/94xipt3qn/2015_09_30_083837_1600x900_scrot.png
>
> On 30/09/2015, Edward Bartolo  wrote:
>> Hi fsmithred,
>>
>> Are you suggesting me to remove the lines starting with lo? If that is
>> the case, it can be done.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> On 30/09/2015, fsmithred  wrote:
>>> Edward,
>>>
>>> Thanks! It looks good. I can't really see the back window, but I think
>>> maybe it looks better with the buttons on the side.
>>>
>>> You probably don't need to list the loopback, but I'm guessing it's
>>> there
>>> because it's easier to leave it than to take it out.
>>>
>>> fsr
>>>
>>>
>>> On 09/29/2015 04:30 PM, Edward Bartolo wrote:
 Hi All,

 This is the new netman's dialog displaying Network Information.
 http://s1.postimg.org/5qx5y6vxr/2015_09_29_08_1600x900_scrot.png

 Please, give feedback about the new dialog box.

 Edward

 On 29/09/2015, Edward Bartolo  wrote:
>> Sure. Clicking on "Connected" would be fine. If possible, having it
>> displayed on a second, below "Connected" without having to click, and
>> in
>> smaller type would be ok, too, but I'm guessing that's not as easy to
>> code
>> or might cause problems with the layout (spacing).
> I will provide a small button next to "Connected". Using a hotlink may
> require one to use a mouse.
>
>> I don't understand your last sentence. What menu are you talking
>> about?
> The popup menu that is displayed when the systray icon is right
> clicked.
>
> Edward
>
> On 29/09/2015, fsmithred  wrote:
>> Sure. Clicking on "Connected" would be fine. If possible, having it
>> displayed on a second, below "Connected" without having to click, and
>> in
>> smaller type would be ok, too, but I'm guessing that's not as easy to
>> code
>> or might cause problems with the layout (spacing).
>>
>> I don't understand your last sentence. What menu are you talking
>> about?
>>
>> fsr
>>
>>
>>
>> On 09/29/2015 04:58 AM, Edward Bartolo wrote:
>>> I can provide more network connection information through a dialog
>>> box. I am suggesting this to be invoked by clicking the word
>>> 'Connected' or 'Disconnected'. I can make the latter behave like an
>>> internet hotlink. I will also provide a menu item to invoke the
>>> dialog
>>> box to minimize the number of clicks.
>>>
>>> What do you think?
>>>
>>> Edward
>>>
>>
>>
>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
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