Re: [DNG] CLI backend: (E)SSID issues

[poitr pogo]

Hi,


On Sun, Aug 23, 2015 at 3:32 AM, Steve Litt  wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Aug 2015 23:57:54 +0200
> "tilt!"  wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> it has come to my attention that an SSID is defined by a
>> (closed) IEEE standard as (I quote inofficial source [1]):
>>
>>  > [...] "0-32 octets with arbitrary contents. A 0-length
>>  > SSID indicates the wildcard SSID (in probe request
>>  > frames for instance)"
>>
>> This means that
>>
>> #1 SSIDs can have length zero.
>> #2 SSIDs can contain the zerobyte.
>>
>> In the context of the CLI Back-En's (E)SSID encoder, this has
>> the following consequences:
>>
>> a) I refuse to support case #1. It is a special case that
(...)
>>
>> b) I am currently unable to support case #2, because the
(...)
>>
>> Ceterum censeo standards should be open.
>
> If somebody's silly enough to put nullbytes in their ESSID or have it
> blank (as opposed to not advertised), then I don't want to use their
> silly setup. I think it's perfectly fine not to support those two IMHO
> ridiculous situations.
>

What about utf-8 encoded  (or other encodings like iso-8859-X) strings
with national charaters like "mściągwoń".  Will it be supported?
Supported - mean displayed and setting up connection properly?
:)

--
regards
piotr
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Re: [DNG] C string handling

[Rainer Weikusat]

"tilt!"  writes:
> On 08/22/2015 04:40 PM, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
>> Roger Leigh  writes:
>>> On 20/08/2015 11:27, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
 Roger Leigh  writes:
> On 19/08/2015 17:39, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>  p_len = strlen(IFACES_PATH);
>>  e_len = strlen(essid);
>>  path = alloca(p_len + e_len + 2);
>>  
>>  strcpy(path, IFACES_PATH);
>>  path[p_len] = '/';
>>  strcpy(path + p_len + 1, essid);
>>
>> [...]
>>
>
> I am fully aware of the C string problem.

There is not such thing as a "C string problem": The C standard library
supplies a set of string handling functions working in a certain
way. This way has some advantages but also, some disadvantages.

[...]

> Believe me, I already rewrote specifically this section of
> the code, so don't bother too much.

Ah ... and why precisely are you telling me this? Some guy posted some
code. I posted some comments and related code intended to be helpful in
this context. Some discussion also resulted from that. You seem to be
convinced that this wouldn't be worth the effort compared with the much
larger effort of "rewriting the code" (you assert in a way which seems
rather condescending to me). I could comment on this social procedure
but I won't because I'm convinced that this "talking about people" never
leads to anything good. But should Edward (or you) post more code, I
will probably look through that, at least cursory, and post more
comments (and probably more code because the comments alone are not
useful) because this (code) happens to be something I'm interested in.
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Re: [DNG] CLI backend: (E)SSID issues

[Rainer Weikusat]

"tilt!"  writes:
> Hello,
>
> it has come to my attention that an SSID is defined by a
> (closed) IEEE standard as (I quote inofficial source [1]):
>
>> [...] "0-32 octets with arbitrary contents. A 0-length
>> SSID indicates the wildcard SSID (in probe request
>> frames for instance)"
>
> This means that
>
> #1 SSIDs can have length zero.
> #2 SSIDs can contain the zerobyte.

[...]

> b) I am currently unable to support case #2, because the
>frontend does not pass the information "length of the
>SSID" to the backend. Instead it passes ans an entry
>of argv[] a C-type string which is a sequence of nonzero
>bytes terminated by a zerobyte. Thus, the backend is not
>capable of receiveing an SSID completely that contains
>the zerobyte, and furthermore, the backend had no way of
>determining the actual length of the SSID in bytes.

I wouldn't spend much time worrying about this: For the given scenario,
the ESSID is supposed to be intelligible by humans. Since 0 is not a
printable character, this makes it rather useless in the given context.

> Ceterum censeo standards should be open.

http://standards.ieee.org/about/get/

802.11 is among these. I used to work on a rather grotty Linux wireless
driver during some past project and thus needed some information re: how
this is supposed to work.
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Re: [DNG] C string handling

[Edward Bartolo]

My 'irrational' choice of C language for backend.

As a coder, I lack knowledge and experience. This is plain clear from
the code I can write, but I offered my very limited coding
capabilities to help, notwithstanding I knew, I would have been a
dwarf among giants.

I opted out of choosing Lazarus Pascal for the backend, for the fact,
that Lazarus Pascal is only used by a small niche of developers, and
hence, logically, one cannot expect the frequency of security patches
one finds in C. Nobody uses Lazarus to write a kernel or any important
part of the OS. This means, choosing Lazarus for the backend was  and
still is a bad choice. Lazarus would have created a huge executable
(~6MB) with many hidden function calls included for the reason that it
is high level. This problem is not as critically experienced using C,
at least, in this dwarf's opinion.

People out there want interfaces files to be human readable. Well,
there is a workaround that which enables one to use simple files names
like '1', '2', '3', and so on. One only needs to add
another file, wifis.names, to add a lookup table like:

1 "my home wifi in Malta"
2 "my wifi at work"
3 "wifi at cafe"

This can be read by cat and still anyone wanting to manually connect
would be able to do so. Internally, backend would not accept an
interfaces file whose name is not according to the above. Parsing the
above should not be a performance penalty. It is however, a coding
challenge for someone like me with the presumption to code with
giants.


Edward




On 23/08/2015, Rainer Weikusat  wrote:
> "tilt!"  writes:
>> On 08/22/2015 04:40 PM, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
>>> Roger Leigh  writes:
 On 20/08/2015 11:27, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
> Roger Leigh  writes:
>> On 19/08/2015 17:39, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> p_len = strlen(IFACES_PATH);
>>> e_len = strlen(essid);
>>> path = alloca(p_len + e_len + 2);
>>> 
>>> strcpy(path, IFACES_PATH);
>>> path[p_len] = '/';
>>> strcpy(path + p_len + 1, essid);
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>
>> I am fully aware of the C string problem.
>
> There is not such thing as a "C string problem": The C standard library
> supplies a set of string handling functions working in a certain
> way. This way has some advantages but also, some disadvantages.
>
> [...]
>
>> Believe me, I already rewrote specifically this section of
>> the code, so don't bother too much.
>
> Ah ... and why precisely are you telling me this? Some guy posted some
> code. I posted some comments and related code intended to be helpful in
> this context. Some discussion also resulted from that. You seem to be
> convinced that this wouldn't be worth the effort compared with the much
> larger effort of "rewriting the code" (you assert in a way which seems
> rather condescending to me). I could comment on this social procedure
> but I won't because I'm convinced that this "talking about people" never
> leads to anything good. But should Edward (or you) post more code, I
> will probably look through that, at least cursory, and post more
> comments (and probably more code because the comments alone are not
> useful) because this (code) happens to be something I'm interested in.
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Re: [DNG] CLI backend: (E)SSID issues

[tilt!]

Hi Piotr,

On 08/23/2015 09:24 AM, poitr pogo wrote:

[...]
What about utf-8 encoded  (or other encodings like iso-8859-X) strings
with national charaters like "mściągwoń".  Will it be supported?
Supported - mean displayed and setting up connection properly?


Yes! :)

Best regards,
T.



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Re: [DNG] C string handling

[tilt!]

Hi Edward!

On 08/23/2015 12:37 PM, Edward Bartolo wrote:

My 'irrational' choice of C language for backend.

As a coder, I lack knowledge and experience. This is plain clear from
the code I can write, but I offered my very limited coding
capabilities to help, notwithstanding I knew, I would have been a
dwarf among giants.


There are no giants - just trolls of different size :D

Kind regards,
T.

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Re: [DNG] C string handling

[aitor_czr]

Hi Edward,

In my opinion Pascal is a little obsolete language, but it is a OOP very 
similar to C++.

The work is done, chapeau!

Aitor.

On 23/08/15 12:37, Edward Bartolo  wrote:

My 'irrational' choice of C language for backend.

As a coder, I lack knowledge and experience. This is plain clear from
the code I can write, but I offered my very limited coding
capabilities to help, notwithstanding I knew, I would have been a
dwarf among giants.

I opted out of choosing Lazarus Pascal for the backend, for the fact,
that Lazarus Pascal is only used by a small niche of developers, and
hence, logically, one cannot expect the frequency of security patches
one finds in C. Nobody uses Lazarus to write a kernel or any important
part of the OS. This means, choosing Lazarus for the backend was  and
still is a bad choice. Lazarus would have created a huge executable
(~6MB) with many hidden function calls included for the reason that it
is high level. This problem is not as critically experienced using C,
at least, in this dwarf's opinion.

People out there want interfaces files to be human readable. Well,
there is a workaround that which enables one to use simple files names
like '1', '2', '3', and so on. One only needs to add
another file, wifis.names, to add a lookup table like:

1 "my home wifi in Malta"
2 "my wifi at work"
3 "wifi at cafe"

This can be read by cat and still anyone wanting to manually connect
would be able to do so. Internally, backend would not accept an
interfaces file whose name is not according to the above. Parsing the
above should not be a performance penalty. It is however, a coding
challenge for someone like me with the presumption to code with
giants.


Edward


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[DNG] Bug in live-installer

[aitor_czr]

Hi all,

Installing live-images, the process becames unstable depending (i 
suppose) on the size of the filesystem.squashfs file. The following hack 
solves this issue:


https://gitlab.com/aitor_czr/live-installer/commit/cf89c8d49196cc92d183640bd1697599bdcaed99

I'm not the author of the hack. The author of the hack is Philip 
Newborough, aka Corenominal (CrunchBang). Honestly, i didn't analyze the 
code.


But it works.

Aitor.
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Re: [DNG] C string handling

[Hendrik Boom]

On Sun, Aug 23, 2015 at 02:01:30PM +0200, aitor_czr wrote:
> Hi Edward,
> 
> In my opinion Pascal is a little obsolete language, but it is a OOP
> very similar to C++.
> The work is done, chapeau!

Agree, except for the part of being siilar to C++.
The language that does fit this description, and whose syntax is Pascalish,
is Modula 3.  Modula 3 is not obsolete, has garbage-colelcted OO 
features (without requirint you to use them), but has become 
severely underused in the last decade.

It has in the past been used for operating system implementation.

Modula 3 is not Modula 2, by the way.  A completely different language.
The successof to Modula 2 was Oberon.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] frontend GUI implementation

[Edward Bartolo]

Although I have a working Lazarus written frontend, I am getting the
message, it may not be accepted in Devuan, for the reason it is
written in Lazarus Pascal. Therefore, I am considering taking the leap
of trying to rewrite it for GTK2 or GTK3, the implementation language
being C++.

However, this is a high hurdle for me, and I cannot be confident I even succeed.

In the case of opting to use GTK2 or GTK3, I will need an IDE to
create the graphical interfaces.


Edward
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Re: [DNG] C string handling

[Steve Litt]

On Sun, 23 Aug 2015 11:37:26 +0100
Edward Bartolo  wrote:

> My 'irrational' choice of C language for backend.
> 
> As a coder, I lack knowledge and experience. This is plain clear from
> the code I can write, but I offered my very limited coding
> capabilities to help, notwithstanding I knew, I would have been a
> dwarf among giants.

Your code was fine Edward. You used a few strcpy() instead of
strncpy(). Big deal --- it's less than an hour's work to fix it. You
used the literal SSID for a filename, creating an in for ESSID "; rm -r
$HOME". I'd like to criticize you for that, but that was *my* idea. So
I guess I'm a dwarf too. I'm not concerned: I make mistakes, that's why
my pencil has an eraser.

You may have made some other very esoteric "bad decisions" regarding
defending against very determined hackers. Fine: You got your code out
there, people warned you, you changed it.

You know who I think is the giant? The guy who actually writes the code
to do the job. The guys who find the mistakes are essential, but
they're supporting actors: The star is the guy who writes the code to
solve the problem.


SteveT

Steve Litt 
August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust
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Re: [DNG] frontend GUI implementation

[Jaromil]

dear Edward

On Sun, 23 Aug 2015, Edward Bartolo wrote:

> Although I have a working Lazarus written frontend, I am getting the
> message, it may not be accepted in Devuan, for the reason it is
> written in Lazarus Pascal.

I doubt that can be a valid reason to exclude your code from being
packaged and redistributed. Lazarus is GPL licensed and if your code
works well and efficiently enough, I'd be against discriminating it for
the language is written in.

if you have spare time left to invest into this I recommend doing a .deb
package so we can easily test it 


ciao


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Re: [DNG] frontend GUI implementation

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2015 23 Aug 09:21 -0500, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> Although I have a working Lazarus written frontend, I am getting the
> message, it may not be accepted in Devuan, for the reason it is
> written in Lazarus Pascal. Therefore, I am considering taking the leap
> of trying to rewrite it for GTK2 or GTK3, the implementation language
> being C++.

Edward, if you prefer Lazarus, then use it.  A popular amateur radio
logging program is written in Lazarus and won't be disappearing from
Debian any time soon so its support in Devuan should remain available.

> However, this is a high hurdle for me, and I cannot be confident I
> even succeed.

You are writing the code.  Write it in whatever language you are
comfortable with.  Others can translate if they deem it necessary.  What
is more important is the end result and the problem that you solve.

> In the case of opting to use GTK2 or GTK3, I will need an IDE to
> create the graphical interfaces.

It seems as though GTK is a dead end.  I say that even though I maintain
a small amateur radio application that uses GTK2 and is written in C.
When Debian drops support for GTK2 (and they will at some point under
pressure from the GNOME cabal), then that package may leave Debian but I
will not undertake porting it to GTK3 which, by rights, should not be
called a "toolkit".  At that time I may consider FLTK, but that requires
C++ and I may just drop the thing or keep it available as a statically
compiled program for myself and others.

The reason so many languages exist is because not everyone thinks or
approaches solving a problem in the same way.  Continue with what you
are most comfortable with.

- Nate

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us
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Re: [DNG] frontend GUI implementation

[Tobias Hunger]

Hi Edward,

In your place I'd stick with what I am comfortable with and let the
packages figure out how to get things into distributions, especially after
jaromils message.

But if you decide to go for a C++ frontend, then you might want to consider
Qt. It is probably a more beginner friendly option: It has good
documentation and works great with the Qt Creator IDE -- which also works
great for non-Qt C++ and C projects. So even for GTK projects it is a
decent IDE, even though you will need to run the UI designer as a separate
application.

Best Regards,
Tobias
Am 23.08.2015 16:20 schrieb "Edward Bartolo" :

> Although I have a working Lazarus written frontend, I am getting the
> message, it may not be accepted in Devuan, for the reason it is
> written in Lazarus Pascal. Therefore, I am considering taking the leap
> of trying to rewrite it for GTK2 or GTK3, the implementation language
> being C++.
>
> However, this is a high hurdle for me, and I cannot be confident I even
> succeed.
>
> In the case of opting to use GTK2 or GTK3, I will need an IDE to
> create the graphical interfaces.
>
>
> Edward
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Re: [DNG] C string handling

[Rainer Weikusat]

Steve Litt  writes:

> On Sun, 23 Aug 2015 11:37:26 +0100
> Edward Bartolo  wrote:
>
>> My 'irrational' choice of C language for backend.
>> 
>> As a coder, I lack knowledge and experience. This is plain clear from
>> the code I can write, but I offered my very limited coding
>> capabilities to help, notwithstanding I knew, I would have been a
>> dwarf among giants.
>
> Your code was fine Edward. You used a few strcpy() instead of
> strncpy(). Big deal --- it's less than an hour's work to fix it.

There's nothing wrong with using strcpy. But it can't be used with a
fixed size buffer whose size fell from the sky in order to copy some
data of an a priori unknown length. And the fix for that is not "use
strncpy" but "implement proper buffer handling". That's not really
difficult and the easiest way is to do it from the start instead writing
a lot of code which will then have to be changed later.

[...]

> You know who I think is the giant? The guy who actually writes the code
> to do the job. The guys who find the mistakes are essential, but
> they're supporting actors: The star is the guy who writes the code to
> solve the problem.

If you feel entitled to sort people volunteering their time into "worthy
ones" and "less worthy ones", you should perhaps consider that
understanding code written by someone else is more work than writing the
code --- that's why "OMG! Need to rewrite all of this!!" is so immensely
popular: It's much easier.
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Re: [DNG] frontend GUI implementation

[tilt!]

Hi Edward,

On 08/23/2015 04:20 PM, Edward Bartolo wrote:

Although I have a working Lazarus written frontend, I am getting the
message, it may not be accepted in Devuan, for the reason it is
written in Lazarus Pascal. Therefore, I am considering taking the leap
of trying to rewrite it for GTK2 or GTK3, the implementation language
being C++.


Lazarus Pascal (Object Pascal) is perfectly fine.

Just wrap the thing up, decide for a license, and put it on
some GIT thing so people can start helping you officially.

Kind regards,
T.

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Re: [DNG] frontend GUI implementation

[Steve Litt]

On Sun, 23 Aug 2015 15:20:49 +0100
Edward Bartolo  wrote:

> Although I have a working Lazarus written frontend, I am getting the
> message, it may not be accepted in Devuan, for the reason it is
> written in Lazarus Pascal. Therefore, I am considering taking the leap
> of trying to rewrite it for GTK2 or GTK3, the implementation language
> being C++.
> 
> However, this is a high hurdle for me, and I cannot be confident I
> even succeed.
> 
> In the case of opting to use GTK2 or GTK3, I will need an IDE to
> create the graphical interfaces.

GTK* is, imho, too big a hammer for writing this simple back end. It
would pull in thousands of lines of code.

Ask about Py/Tk, and whether *that* would be accepted. Even Zenity:
Would that be accepted? Zenity would mean you could code your front end
as shellscripts, although the resulting user interface would look a
little like a 1989 DOS pseudo-windowing interface.

Another suggestion, if you'd like to use C, is the libsx package: VERY
lightweight GUI. Here's a no-systemd notification system, using libsx,
that a guy on Debian-User wrote:

http://a3b3.com/stuff/sxnotify.c

The preceding link has detailed build instructions.

IMHO GTK* and Qt* are wy overkill.

SteveT

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August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
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Re: [DNG] frontend GUI implementation

[Steve Litt]

On Sun, 23 Aug 2015 16:50:45 +0200
Jaromil  wrote:

> 
> dear Edward
> 
> On Sun, 23 Aug 2015, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> 
> > Although I have a working Lazarus written frontend, I am getting the
> > message, it may not be accepted in Devuan, for the reason it is
> > written in Lazarus Pascal.
> 
> I doubt that can be a valid reason to exclude your code from being
> packaged and redistributed. Lazarus is GPL licensed and if your code
> works well and efficiently enough, I'd be against discriminating it
> for the language is written in.
> 
> if you have spare time left to invest into this I recommend doing
> a .deb package so we can easily test it 
> 
> 
> ciao

Hi Edward,

Please forget my suggestions about Py/Tk, Zenity and libsx. Now that
everyone has said that Lazarus *would* be accepted, just go with that.

Speaking for myself, I install Lazarus every time I go to a new
distro/version. Quickest and easiest GUI development, IMHO.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
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Re: [DNG] frontend GUI implementation

[Rainer Weikusat]

Steve Litt  writes:

[...]

> Another suggestion, if you'd like to use C, is the libsx package: VERY
> lightweight GUI. Here's a no-systemd notification system, using libsx,
> that a guy on Debian-User wrote:
>
> http://a3b3.com/stuff/sxnotify.c
>
> The preceding link has detailed build instructions.

If you want a way to show a popup with a string in it using Athena
widgets, you might want to have a look at the xmessage program.
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Re: [DNG] frontend GUI implementation

[Go Linux]

On Sun, 8/23/15, Steve Litt  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [DNG] frontend GUI implementation
 To: dng@lists.dyne.org
 Date: Sunday, August 23, 2015, 10:27 AM
>
> GTK* is, imho, too big a hammer for writing this simple back end. It
> would pull in thousands of lines of code.
> 



 I thought the GTK was being considered for the front end to replace the Pascal 
. . .

 Wouldn't GTK2 still be supported by Mate should he want to go that route?

golinux


 
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Re: [DNG] frontend GUI implementation

[Go Linux]

I'm just realizing that Pascal and Lazarus Pascal might be two different 
things.  Apologies for any confusion . . .

golinux
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Re: [DNG] frontend GUI implementation

[Steve Litt]

On Sun, 23 Aug 2015 11:27:21 -0400
Steve Litt  wrote:

> On Sun, 23 Aug 2015 15:20:49 +0100
> Edward Bartolo  wrote:
> 
> > Although I have a working Lazarus written frontend, I am getting the
> > message, it may not be accepted in Devuan, for the reason it is
> > written in Lazarus Pascal. Therefore, I am considering taking the
> > leap of trying to rewrite it for GTK2 or GTK3, the implementation
> > language being C++.
> > 
> > However, this is a high hurdle for me, and I cannot be confident I
> > even succeed.
> > 
> > In the case of opting to use GTK2 or GTK3, I will need an IDE to
> > create the graphical interfaces.
> 
> GTK* is, imho, too big a hammer for writing this simple back end. 

s/back end/front end/

I was thinking too fast for my brain.

But of course, now that Lazarus is approved, Gtk/sxlib etc is a moot
point.

> It
> would pull in thousands of lines of code.
> 
> Ask about Py/Tk, and whether *that* would be accepted. Even Zenity:
> Would that be accepted? Zenity would mean you could code your front
> end as shellscripts, although the resulting user interface would look
> a little like a 1989 DOS pseudo-windowing interface.
> 
> Another suggestion, if you'd like to use C, is the libsx package: VERY
> lightweight GUI. Here's a no-systemd notification system, using libsx,
> that a guy on Debian-User wrote:
> 
> http://a3b3.com/stuff/sxnotify.c
> 
> The preceding link has detailed build instructions.
> 
> IMHO GTK* and Qt* are wy overkill.
> 
> SteveT
> 
> Steve Litt 
> August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust
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Re: [DNG] frontend GUI implementation

[Edward Bartolo]

There is a unit called threader.pas that is not used. Please, discard
it as it has errors.

On 23/08/2015, Edward Bartolo  wrote:
> I am sending a .tar.gz file with the Lazarus project together with the
> compiled executable. The latter is named netman and is found together
> with the Pascal source files. It is a 5.6 MB executable for the reason
> Lazarus uses static linking which increases portability.
>
> To run netman, place backend in the same directory and setup sudo so
> that backend can run with root privileges. Create a new directory wifi
> under /etc/network and that  is it. netman can even run from within
> the home directory.
>
> Hopefully, you find it reaches the desired standard.
>
> Edward
>
>
> On 23/08/2015, Jaromil  wrote:
>>
>> dear Edward
>>
>> On Sun, 23 Aug 2015, Edward Bartolo wrote:
>>
>>> Although I have a working Lazarus written frontend, I am getting the
>>> message, it may not be accepted in Devuan, for the reason it is
>>> written in Lazarus Pascal.
>>
>> I doubt that can be a valid reason to exclude your code from being
>> packaged and redistributed. Lazarus is GPL licensed and if your code
>> works well and efficiently enough, I'd be against discriminating it for
>> the language is written in.
>>
>> if you have spare time left to invest into this I recommend doing a .deb
>> package so we can easily test it
>>
>>
>> ciao
>>
>>
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[DNG] remove systemd for the love of Yog-Sothoth already

[Adam Borowski]

Today on #debconf:

20:11 < paultag> devuan can pick a fight once they release
20:11 < paultag> Hell, they can pick a fight once they stop installing systemd 
by default
20:11 < paultag> which they still do

Guys... _still_ installing systemd by default is pathethic.  I provided a
set of desystemdized de-libsystemd0-ed packaged half a year ago (deb-src
http://angband.pl/debian nosystemd-{jessie,stretch}), and other than upower,
it was a matter of a bunch of trivial changes to debian/{control,rules,...}.

The time frame becomes bad... you don't want to be laughed at, do you?

-- 
⢎⣉⠂⠠⠤⡀⣄⠤⡀⠠⡅⠀⠤⡧⠄⡄⠀⡄⠀⠀⠀⠠⡅⠀⡠⠤⠄⠀⠀⠀⢴⠍⠀⡠⠤⡀⣄⠤⡀⠀⠀⠀⠤⡧⠄⣇⠤⡀⡠⠤⡀⠀⠀⠀⡄⠀⡄⡠⠤⡀⠠⠤⡀⡇⡠⠄⠀⠀⠀
⠢⠤⠃⠪⠭⠇⠇⠀⠇⠀⠣⠀⠀⠣⠄⠨⠭⠃⠣⠀⠬⠭⠂⠀⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⠣⠤⠃⠇⠀⠀⠣⠄⠇⠀⠇⠫⠭⠁⠀⠀⠀⠣⠣⠃⠫⠭⠁⠪⠭⠇⠏⠢⠄⠀⠄⠀
(https://github.com/kilobyte/braillefont for this hack)
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Re: [DNG] remove systemd for the love of Yog-Sothoth already

[Anto]

On 23/08/15 20:34, Adam Borowski wrote:

Today on #debconf:

20:11 < paultag> devuan can pick a fight once they release
20:11 < paultag> Hell, they can pick a fight once they stop installing systemd 
by default
20:11 < paultag> which they still do

Guys... _still_ installing systemd by default is pathethic.  I provided a
set of desystemdized de-libsystemd0-ed packaged half a year ago (deb-src
http://angband.pl/debian nosystemd-{jessie,stretch}), and other than upower,
it was a matter of a bunch of trivial changes to debian/{control,rules,...}.

The time frame becomes bad... you don't want to be laughed at, do you?



I felt like I was being laughed at some time ago, when I posted that I 
always re-compile the packages that I use to remove systemd unit files 
before I install those packages. I know that they are harmless if we 
installed them on non-systemd Linux. But it is a matter of principle to 
me that having those unit files on my PC means that I am still 
supporting systemd.


It looks like that my principle is not in line with Devuan. I was quite 
pessimistic about Devuan after I found out that the principle of Devuan 
is to provide freedom of choice which includes the choice to support 
systemd. The sentence that I always remember is this one: [quote]*But if 
you want a system designed to be unable to run systemd, please leave us. 
This is not the place for such an anti-freedom POV.*[/quote], on 
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150505.165244.78917113.en.html.


Someone kept confirming that Devuan will not support systemd. But it was 
confirmed as well that the option for Devuan to support systemd is still 
quite wide open if someone (I believe more accurate will be a company as 
big as RedHat) is willing to put the efforts to do that. And that will 
be accepted by Devuan as long as there is no hard dependency to all 
other packages. I think this is what keeps Devuan hoping to get the 
support on, so the option for that is kept opened even the chance is 
very low. This only creates confusions to Devuan users as there does not 
seem to be a clear direction where to go.


I hope I really misunderstood all of that because if that would be true, 
I am quite sure people outside Devuan especially the systemd supporters 
will be laughing out loud at Devuan.


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Re: [DNG] remove systemd for the love of Yog-Sothoth already

[Hendrik Boom]

On Sun, Aug 23, 2015 at 10:17:05PM +0200, Anto wrote:
> 
> On 23/08/15 20:34, Adam Borowski wrote:
> >Today on #debconf:
> >
> >20:11 < paultag> devuan can pick a fight once they release
> >20:11 < paultag> Hell, they can pick a fight once they stop installing 
> >systemd by default
> >20:11 < paultag> which they still do
> >
> >Guys... _still_ installing systemd by default is pathethic.  I provided a
> >set of desystemdized de-libsystemd0-ed packaged half a year ago (deb-src
> >http://angband.pl/debian nosystemd-{jessie,stretch}), and other than upower,
> >it was a matter of a bunch of trivial changes to debian/{control,rules,...}.
> >
> >The time frame becomes bad... you don't want to be laughed at, do you?
> >
> 
> I felt like I was being laughed at some time ago, when I posted that
> I always re-compile the packages that I use to remove systemd unit
> files before I install those packages. I know that they are harmless
> if we installed them on non-systemd Linux. But it is a matter of
> principle to me that having those unit files on my PC means that I
> am still supporting systemd.
> 
> It looks like that my principle is not in line with Devuan. I was
> quite pessimistic about Devuan after I found out that the principle
> of Devuan is to provide freedom of choice which includes the choice
> to support systemd. The sentence that I always remember is this one:
> [quote]*But if you want a system designed to be unable to run
> systemd, please leave us. This is not the place for such an
> anti-freedom POV.*[/quote], on 
> https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150505.165244.78917113.en.html.
> 
> Someone kept confirming that Devuan will not support systemd. But it
> was confirmed as well that the option for Devuan to support systemd
> is still quite wide open if someone (I believe more accurate will be
> a company as big as RedHat) is willing to put the efforts to do
> that. And that will be accepted by Devuan as long as there is no
> hard dependency to all other packages. I think this is what keeps
> Devuan hoping to get the support on, so the option for that is kept
> opened even the chance is very low. This only creates confusions to
> Devuan users as there does not seem to be a clear direction where to
> go.
> 
> I hope I really misunderstood all of that because if that would be
> true, I am quite sure people outside Devuan especially the systemd
> supporters will be laughing out loud at Devuan.

We are not there yet.

As I understand, our policy it this:

We intend that devuan will run withou systemd, and we are slowly 
removing dependencies on systemd.  We have already made sure we can run 
with an init other than systemd.

We have limited manpower.

We are not going to waste time making sure no one can install systemd on 
devuan.
We are not going to waste time making sure anyone can install systemd on 
devuan.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] remove systemd for the love of Yog-Sothoth already

[Go Linux]

On Sun, 8/23/15, Adam Borowski  wrote:

 Subject: [DNG] remove systemd for the love of Yog-Sothoth already
 To: dng@lists.dyne.org
 Date: Sunday, August 23, 2015, 1:34 PM
 
> Today on #debconf:
> 
> 20:11 < paultag> devuan can pick a fight once they release
> 20:11 < paultag> Hell, they can pick a fight once they stop installing 
> systemd by default
> 20:11 < paultag> which they still do
> 
> Guys... _still_ installing systemd by default is pathethic.  I provided a
> set of desystemdized de-libsystemd0-ed packaged half a year ago (deb-src
> http://angband.pl/debian nosystemd-{jessie,stretch}), and other than upower,
> it was a matter of a bunch of trivial changes to debian/{control,rules,...}.
> 
> The time frame becomes bad... you don't want to be laughed at, do you?
> 



It's hard to read those quotes from #debconf properly without knowing the 
previous context.  I was wondering if any Devuaneers crashed debconf.  Was this 
a response to their presence?  Or just to someone trolling the irc?

I agree that the inclusion of ANY systemd files at this point is a BIG target 
for comments like these.  VUAs et al . . . time to clean house . . .

golinux
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Re: [DNG] remove systemd for the love of Yog-Sothoth already

[Svante Signell]

On Sun, 2015-08-23 at 20:34 +0200, Adam Borowski wrote:
> Today on #debconf:
> 
> 20:11 < paultag> devuan can pick a fight once they release
> 20:11 < paultag> Hell, they can pick a fight once they stop installing 
> systemd by default
> 20:11 < paultag> which they still do
> 
> Guys... _still_ installing systemd by default is pathethic.  I provided a
> set of desystemdized de-libsystemd0-ed packaged half a year ago (deb-src
> http://angband.pl/debian nosystemd-{jessie,stretch}), and other than upower,
> it was a matter of a bunch of trivial changes to debian/{control,rules,...}.
> 
> The time frame becomes bad... you don't want to be laughed at, do you?

Couldn't agree more. The problem seems to be people committing to
maintain packages :( I for one am willing to maintain some, but the
devuan git development process is still not clear to me. 


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[DNG] xfce not shutting down on Devuan

[adamdm]

I can't shutdown Devuan from xfce, the button is just disabled...
Am I missing something?

Thanks
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Re: [DNG] remove systemd for the love of Yog-Sothoth already

[Daniel Reurich]

On 24/08/15 06:34, Adam Borowski wrote:

Today on #debconf:

20:11 < paultag> devuan can pick a fight once they release
20:11 < paultag> Hell, they can pick a fight once they stop installing systemd 
by default
20:11 < paultag> which they still do

Guys... _still_ installing systemd by default is pathethic.  I provided a
set of desystemdized de-libsystemd0-ed packaged half a year ago (deb-src
http://angband.pl/debian nosystemd-{jessie,stretch}), and other than upower,
it was a matter of a bunch of trivial changes to debian/{control,rules,...}.

The time frame becomes bad... you don't want to be laughed at, do you?


Adam,

Where's your git repo or (whatever VCS you use).  We'd be happy to 
utilise your work but won't do that without review of the changes made. 
 We're certainly not going to point people to other random repo's where 
there is no review process and no way for us to prove the validity of 
the binaries built.


If you want to contribute that work to Devuan we'd sure welcome it.

Or are you here just trolling and trying to divert attention from here 
to your own project?



--
Daniel Reurich
Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd.
021 797 722
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Re: [DNG] xfce not shutting down on Devuan

[Teodoro Santoni]

Hey there,

On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 12:26:16AM +0200, adamdm wrote:
> Am I missing something?
pm-utils I think.

--
Teodoro Santoni

Something is wrong. I don't wanna compile 20 KB of Go code to list files.
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Re: [DNG] xfce not shutting down on Devuan

[tilt!]

On 08/24/2015 12:26 AM, adamdm wrote:

I can't shutdown Devuan from xfce, the button is just disabled...
Am I missing something?


apt-get install pm-utils

Kind regards,
T.

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Re: [DNG] xfce not shutting down on Devuan

[adamdm]

Hi, I've installed it but it doesn't change nothing...

$ dpkg -l | grep pm-utils
ii  pm-utils  1.4.1-15
   all  utilities and scripts for power management
> On 08/24/2015 12:26 AM, adamdm wrote:
>> I can't shutdown Devuan from xfce, the button is just disabled...
>> Am I missing something?
> 
> apt-get install pm-utils
> 
> Kind regards,
> T.
> 
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Re: [DNG] remove systemd for the love of Yog-Sothoth already

[Jaromil]

On 23 August 2015 21:52:46 BST, Go Linux  wrote:

>I agree that the inclusion of ANY systemd files at this point is a BIG
>target for comments like these.  VUAs et al . . . time to clean house .


its so easy to just remove systemd packages from amprolla...
and so much more work has been put in achieving a solid Devuan CI
that systemd in our repository is mostly a bait. will be around
until beta, meanwhile watching the trolls passing is entertaining :-)

ciao

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Re: [DNG] xfce not shutting down on Devuan

[tilt!]

On 08/24/2015 01:37 AM, adamdm wrote:

Hi, I've installed it but it doesn't change nothing...

$ dpkg -l | grep pm-utils
ii  pm-utils  1.4.1-15


Hmm. Unsure.

Did you log out and log in again to restart XFCE
since you installed the package?

Kind regards,
T.
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Re: [DNG] xfce not shutting down on Devuan

[adamdm]

Yes I've tryed but nothing..
>Hmm. Unsure.
>
>Did you log out and log in again to restart XFCE
>since you installed the package?
>
>Kind regards,
>T.
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Re: [DNG] xfce not shutting down on Devuan

[tilt!]

Hi,

On 08/24/2015 02:22 AM, adamdm wrote:

Hmm. Unsure.

Did you log out and log in again to restart XFCE
since you installed the package?


> Yes I've tryed but nothing..

Ahhh, this is so troublesome :-)

1. Do you have the "policykit-1" and the "policykit-1-gnome"
packages installed?

2. You can run the logout dialog shutdown operation manually
(beware, this might shutdown your system!):

 ~$ xfce4-session-logout --halt

Does that work? If not, does it emit an errmsg?

Kind regards,
T.
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Re: [DNG] remove systemd for the love of Yog-Sothoth already

[Steve Litt]

On Sun, 23 Aug 2015 20:34:19 +0200
Adam Borowski  wrote:

> Today on #debconf:
> 
> 20:11 < paultag> devuan can pick a fight once they release
> 20:11 < paultag> Hell, they can pick a fight once they stop
> installing systemd by default 20:11 < paultag> which they still do
> 
> Guys... _still_ installing systemd by default is pathethic.

[snip]

> The time frame becomes bad... you don't want to be laughed at, do you?

Given that Devuan doesn't use systemd as PID 1, I'm not too concerned
by their laughter. Everyone knows it's hard to pull Lennart's cancerous
roots out of software once he's mestasticized software.

I have a hunch sooner or later we'll release a completely depoetterized
Devuan, but it would be a shame in our efforts to rush that
accomplishment, we released a version that worked poorly.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust
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Re: [DNG] remove systemd for the love of Yog-Sothoth already

[Steve Litt]

On Sun, 23 Aug 2015 22:17:05 +0200
Anto  wrote:


> Someone kept confirming that Devuan will not support systemd. But it
> was confirmed as well that the option for Devuan to support systemd
> is still quite wide open if someone (I believe more accurate will be
> a company as big as RedHat) is willing to put the efforts to do that.

Are you advocating that we insert Halloween Code to crash the minute a
systemd library is detected? Or that Devuan personnel go through every
submission to see whether it's contaminated?

Actually, the latter could probably be easily done programmatically,
which might not be a bad idea.

Speaking just for myself, I would shed no tears if Devuan refused to
contain any software with any direct or indirect dependency on any
systemd library.

In the book Lucifer's Hammer, the authors make the point that a society
adopts the ethics it can afford. In an ideal world, we'd all like to be
init agnostic and allow all comers. But this world is us against
billion capitalization Red Hat who can fund a crew to keep their
systemd Rube Goldberg machine running, so perhaps we can't afford to be
so init agnostic.

And, as has been discussed a thousand times over, if someone wants
Devuan with any systemd dependencies, they want Debian.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
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Re: [DNG] remove systemd for the love of Yog-Sothoth already

[Steve Litt]

On Sun, 23 Aug 2015 13:52:46 -0700
Go Linux  wrote:

 
> It's hard to read those quotes from #debconf properly without knowing
> the previous context.  I was wondering if any Devuaneers crashed
> debconf.  Was this a response to their presence?  Or just to someone
> trolling the irc?
> 
> I agree that the inclusion of ANY systemd files at this point is a
> BIG target for comments like these.  VUAs et al . . . time to clean
> house . . .

Yeah, but golinux, you *know* those guys, you were there in the bad
times, those guys are going to laugh at us, as their passive aggressive
way of bitching at us, no matter what they do.

And about the laughter, perhaps we can look at it like Gandhi:

First they ignore you, 
then they laugh at you, 
then they fight you,
then you win. 

We're on step 2!

SteveT

Steve Litt 
August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
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Re: [DNG] xfce not shutting down on Devuan

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 24 Aug 2015 00:26:16 +0200
adamdm  wrote:

> I can't shutdown Devuan from xfce, the button is just disabled...
> Am I missing something?

I've intermittently had this problem on multiple versions of multiple
distros. I think of it as being part of the plan --- just the way life
is.

If you're really concerned about it, you could put in a (complicated)
hotkey combo to run a shellscript that runs poweroff, and make sure that
poweroff is set in sudoers to run as root and require no password
(assuming this is a personal computer, and not a multiuser).

By the way, if you happen to be booting to the command prompt and then
running startx, Xfce is functioning as designed when it grays out its
shutdown and reboot buttons.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
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Re: [DNG] xfce not shutting down on Devuan

[Mitt]

On 2015-08-23 22:26, adamdm wrote:

/> I can't shutdown Devuan from xfce, the button is just disabled...//
//> Am I missing something?//
//> //
//> Thanks//
//>/

Hi,

Try to create two files in /etc/polkit-1/localauthority/50-local.d/; 
name the first consolekit.pkla and put this there:


[restart]
Identity=unix-user:*
Action=org.freedesktop.consolekit.system.restart
ResultAny=yes

[stop]
Identity=unix-user:*
Action=org.freedesktop.consolekit.system.stop
ResultAny=yes

and the second named udisks.pkla (because probably you can't mount 
removable drives as well) with the following content:


[udisks]
Identity=unix-user:*
Action=org.freedesktop.udisks*
ResultAny=yes

This won't make you able to suspend and hibernate (I believe there are 
solutions though), so if you don't really use them (like me) you can run 
these two commands:


xfconf-query -c xfce4-session -np '/shutdown/ShowSuspend' -t 'bool' -s 
'false'
xfconf-query -c xfce4-session -np '/shutdown/ShowHibernate' -t 'bool' -s 
'false'


This will hide Suspend and Hibernate buttons from the logout dialog.

Hope this will help,

Mitt
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[DNG] Offtopic: pointed messages?

[Mitt]

Hi,

I noticed that my messages are not pointed to those who they are sent 
to. See image

https://imgur.com/J4UaT7D

How do you do that?

Thanks,

Mitt
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Re: [DNG] xfce not shutting down on Devuan

[Edward Bartolo]

Could we create a simple application that displays a logout modal
window similar to the one displayed by xfce4, remove the default
logout menu item from xfce4 and create our own one. With GTK2 it
shouldn't be that difficult to create it? We would only need to setup
sudo to run the littel GTK2 app.

What do you think?

On 24/08/2015, Steve Litt  wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Aug 2015 00:26:16 +0200
> adamdm  wrote:
>
>> I can't shutdown Devuan from xfce, the button is just disabled...
>> Am I missing something?
>
> I've intermittently had this problem on multiple versions of multiple
> distros. I think of it as being part of the plan --- just the way life
> is.
>
> If you're really concerned about it, you could put in a (complicated)
> hotkey combo to run a shellscript that runs poweroff, and make sure that
> poweroff is set in sudoers to run as root and require no password
> (assuming this is a personal computer, and not a multiuser).
>
> By the way, if you happen to be booting to the command prompt and then
> running startx, Xfce is functioning as designed when it grays out its
> shutdown and reboot buttons.
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust
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Re: [DNG] xfce not shutting down on Devuan

[Daniel Reurich]

That's re-implementing the wheel.

Why not just use what's there and either fix or replace the broken bits.

D

On 24/08/15 16:53, Edward Bartolo wrote:

Could we create a simple application that displays a logout modal
window similar to the one displayed by xfce4, remove the default
logout menu item from xfce4 and create our own one. With GTK2 it
shouldn't be that difficult to create it? We would only need to setup
sudo to run the littel GTK2 app.

What do you think?

On 24/08/2015, Steve Litt  wrote:

On Mon, 24 Aug 2015 00:26:16 +0200
adamdm  wrote:


I can't shutdown Devuan from xfce, the button is just disabled...
Am I missing something?


I've intermittently had this problem on multiple versions of multiple
distros. I think of it as being part of the plan --- just the way life
is.

If you're really concerned about it, you could put in a (complicated)
hotkey combo to run a shellscript that runs poweroff, and make sure that
poweroff is set in sudoers to run as root and require no password
(assuming this is a personal computer, and not a multiuser).

By the way, if you happen to be booting to the command prompt and then
running startx, Xfce is functioning as designed when it grays out its
shutdown and reboot buttons.

SteveT

Steve Litt
August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust
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Daniel Reurich
Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd.
021 797 722
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Re: [DNG] xfce not shutting down on Devuan

[Edward Bartolo]

Sometimes reinventing the wheel does help, like say, the historical
invention of the transistor. There was the thermionic valve, why
reinvent an electronic amplifying device? Still, research is going on
to replace silicon with something else that uses less energy and is
faster. So, reinventing the wheel, may have its positive aspects as
well.

If we cannot find a proper fix, as you rightly claim, a simple
application would do the job very neatly, but opinions differ, and
yours is one of those.



> On 24/08/2015, Daniel Reurich  wrote:
>> That's re-implementing the wheel.
>>
>> Why not just use what's there and either fix or replace the broken bits.
>>
>> D
>>
>> On 24/08/15 16:53, Edward Bartolo wrote:
>>> Could we create a simple application that displays a logout modal
>>> window similar to the one displayed by xfce4, remove the default
>>> logout menu item from xfce4 and create our own one. With GTK2 it
>>> shouldn't be that difficult to create it? We would only need to setup
>>> sudo to run the littel GTK2 app.
>>>
>>> What do you think?
>>>
>>> On 24/08/2015, Steve Litt  wrote:
 On Mon, 24 Aug 2015 00:26:16 +0200
 adamdm  wrote:

> I can't shutdown Devuan from xfce, the button is just disabled...
> Am I missing something?

 I've intermittently had this problem on multiple versions of multiple
 distros. I think of it as being part of the plan --- just the way life
 is.

 If you're really concerned about it, you could put in a (complicated)
 hotkey combo to run a shellscript that runs poweroff, and make sure
 that
 poweroff is set in sudoers to run as root and require no password
 (assuming this is a personal computer, and not a multiuser).

 By the way, if you happen to be booting to the command prompt and then
 running startx, Xfce is functioning as designed when it grays out its
 shutdown and reboot buttons.

 SteveT

 Steve Litt
 August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
 http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust
 ___
 Dng mailing list
 Dng@lists.dyne.org
 https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

>>> ___
>>> Dng mailing list
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Daniel Reurich
>> Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd.
>> 021 797 722
>>
>
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Re: [DNG] xfce not shutting down on Devuan

[iguleder]

apt-get update;apt-get -y upgrade

I've spent many nights debugging power/session management issues in Xfce on 
Devuan - all confirmed disabled button issues are fixed.




Let me know if the problem persists.


 On Mon, 24 Aug 2015 01:26:16 +0300 adamdm wrote 
 

I can't shutdown Devuan from xfce, the button is just disabled...
Am I missing something?

Thanks
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