[Dng] test

[Franco Lanza]

-- 

Franco (nextime) Lanza
Lonate Pozzolo (VA) - Italy
SIP://c...@casa.nexlab.it
web: http://www.nexlab.net

NO TCPA: http://www.no1984.org
you can download my public key at:
http://danex.nexlab.it/nextime.asc || Key Servers
Key ID = D6132D50
Key fingerprint = 66ED 5211 9D59 DA53 1DF7  4189 DFED F580 D613 2D50
---
echo 
16i[q]sa[ln0=aln100%Pln100/snlbx]sbA0D212153574F444E49572045535520454D20454B414D204F54204847554F4E452059415020544F4E4E4143205345544147204C4C4942snlbxq
 | dc
---



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Re: [Dng] A novice attempt to speed up Devuan development

[David Hare]

While we're waiting for vdev (that does look like the way to go) I 
revisited eudev, which I never managed to get working in a usable way.


Did much better this time after some not too major hacking of the source 
posted on devuan git, mostly "rules" and "patches". I now got it working 
seemingly (too early to be sure) quite well. My usb wlan device works, 
other removables pop up normally and zero (udev) errors in dmesg output!


This did involve dpkg -P --force-all on existing udev components first. 
Got a totally trashed system numerous times, which had to be recovered 
in a chroot, before getting it going with yet another rebuild..


More later, after a little testing.

D
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Re: [Dng] Valentine alpha: Was: Re: Financial report, 1st trimester 2015

[JeremyBekka C]

Message: 8
Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 11:03:22 +0200
From: Svante Signell 
To: dng@lists.dyne.org
Subject: [Dng] Valentine alpha: Was: Re:  Financial report, 1st
trimester 2015
Message-ID: <1430730202.4404.91.ca...@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-15"

On Sun, 2015-05-03 at 22:55 -0400, JeremyBekka C wrote:

>
> I was wondering if there is a set of instructions that would explain
> how to build the current version of Devuan. I tried getting the
> original alpha working in vagrant without success.

>See

>https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150428.065313.d9ab7867.en.html


>for information on how to upgrade the Valentine release to current
>status.

Thanks for the link. I tried following the instructions but not sure if I
did this right.I was not sure what to do and I could not get the dpkg
commands to work as given in that post. What I did was change
/etc/apt/sources/list to the following:

#Devuan Sources
deb http://packages.devuan.org/merged ascii main contrib non-free
deb http://packages.devuan.org/merged jessie main contrib non-free
deb http://angband.pl/debian nosystemd main
#(deb-src entries omitted)

deb http://debian.uchicago.edu/debian/ jessie main
deb-src http://debian.uchicago.edu/debian/ jessie main

deb http://security.debian.org/ jessie/updates main
deb-src http://security.debian.org/ jessie/updates main

# wheezy-updates, previously known as 'volatile'
deb http://debian.uchicago.edu/debian/ jessie-updates main
deb-src http://debian.uchicago.edu/debian/ jessie-updates main

I then ran apt-get update and the apt-get upgrade. When I restarted my
computer the grub splash has the Debian 8 logo as well as the login screen
splash. If I search for systemd in synaptic the only thing systemd related
is libsystemd-login0, which was there even in wheezy. I have not figured
out how to get rid of it yet.

Everything seems to work fine, but I wanted to install gparted and I got
the following error:

The following packages have unmet dependencies:
 modemmanager : Breaks: network-manager (< 0.9.8.2-1) but 0.9.4.0-10 is to
be installed
E: Error, pkgProblemResolver::Resolve generated breaks, this may be caused
by held packages.

Just wondering if I messed anything up.

Thanks
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Re: [Dng] Systemd discussions at LinuxQuestions.

[miroslav . rovis1]

On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 02:17:08PM -0700, James Powell wrote:
> Unfortunately the moderators at LinuxQuestions have closed off discussing the 
> Devuan stance topic that had been open and participate in over the repeated 
> squabbling, though honestly, very little was done other than the people who 
> seemed offended by the choice of Devuan's developers lack of choice of 
> systemd, and unwillingness to stop asking about funding and other repeatedly 
> defended arguments which turned the discussion of Devuan into a defense of 
> Devuan.
>
Hi James!

It would have made sense pasting in your message the address on LQ of that 
discussion, else, the burden is on everyone curious to know where that 
discussion might be to perform the same search.

In other words, you would have spared a few people the duck-ing 
(http://duckduckgo.com) for that remaining information (ducking for info; don't 
recommend google the surveillors to anybody ever; strictly my opinion).

Like this, it remains very incomplete.

Just saying. Have no time to discuss this or search for it myself and give to 
everybody the missing address. 

I have to go, because I have another message to write to this ML.

Thank you!
> Just to make it known, the LQ staff have not taken kindly to systemd topics 
> since many of the pro-systemd crowd seem to act more in attacking the stance 
> of being anti-systemd rather than the principles of being anti-systemd for 
> software sanity reasons. Very little real discussion of systemd's merits and 
> technicals (if topics even can be soundly made) ever seems to go anywhere due 
> to the crowd there.
> 
> This is unfortunate but due to the fact several staff members are from the 
> pro-systemd camp, and the fact the staff have made their decisions on those 
> topics, any discussion is probably going to continually go in that same 
> direction, and topics will go nowhere on that forum when that topic is 
> brought up.
> 
> I though I'd let you all know before going to the LinuxQuestions topic and 
> finding it locked out.
> 
> -Jim
> 
> Sent from my Windows Phone

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-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr


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Re: [Dng] [dng] vdev status updates

[Jack L. Frost]

On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 08:03:02PM -0400, Jude Nelson wrote:
> Hey everyone,
> 
> I have the latest news for vdev:

Hi. I dunno if it's very relevant to this particular mailing list, but still.
I've packaged vdev and all its dependencies for Arch:

https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/vdev-git
https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/fskit-git
https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/libpstat-git

As there are some Arch users here too, feel free to test them and poke me if
something's wrong.


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[Dng] Devuan News, volume 02, issue XXIV

[hellekin]

# Devuan News Issue XXIV

__Volume 02, Week 19, Devuan Week 24__

Released Tuesday, 12015/05/12 [HE](why-he)

https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-news/wikis/past-issues/volume-02/issue-024

## Editorial

You may have noticed that some time has elapsed since the last issue was
published. We are sorry for that delay.

One of the reasons is the lack of free time as the newsletter is a
volunteer project and there is a lot of hard work going on with the
developers.

But *Devuan Weekly News* hasn't disappeared, we're still here. And now
we are officially dropping *'Weekly'* from our name. For two reasons.

The first reason is to avoid confusion with the Debian Weekly News (also
DWN).  The Devuan newsletter will now be known as Devuan News (DN).

The second reason is the lack of (wo)man power. The DN will be published
when it's published depending on our collective circumstances and
inclinations.

A final note goes to thank all the volunteers working on the Devuan News.

*You* make this possible.

@etech3

## Lately in Devuan

### [vdev status update][3]

Jude keeps delivering the goods with `vdev`.  After having extracted
`libudev` from `systemd 219` , he shares a difficulty with
the initial idea of using `inotify(2)` to monitor devices changes, and
announces a workaround plan.

Any feedback on the above development plan is welcome, especially if a
simpler, more robust approach can be found.

Thanks to all who followed [Jude's instruction to provide testing
information for vdev development][3a].  Keep'em coming!

### [Financial report, 1st trimester 2015][4]

This report from @jaromil also includes a summary of the Devuan
project's development.

### [Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?][5]

There was a thread started by Anto which included several interesting
responses:

From jaromil -
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150505.173308.c2f664a8.en.html

From Isaac Dunham -
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150505.235121.db200a9a.en.html

### [A novice attempt to speed up Devuan development][6]

Anto posted on his Devuan installation via debootstrap.

### [Please stop vain discussion][7]

Didier commented on yet another debate over whether Devuan should allow
systemd usage or forbid it completely.

@nextime responded with a statement about Devuan generic policy and systemd:

> "The official position is we will support anything that can be
packaged without hijacking the whole system to be installed. Actually
systemd doesn't match this requirement, so, Devuan will not support it
as long it doesn't radically change. Anyway we will not intentionally
obstacle anyone that eventually wants to use it outside official Devuan
release."

### [I used Devuan's debootstrap and installed Devuan][8]

Several users (like Edward Bartolo and David Hare) reported their
experiences with Devuan's new debootstrap.

### [Linux boot documentation][9]

Steve Litt announced his latest oeuvre which generated an interesting
technical discussion of the boot process.

### Are we there yet?

There has been some chatter on and off the last few weeks (on the IRC
channels) relating to the

Q: "Has there been an official release of Devuan?"

A: There is no official release as of yet, but a testable iso
([pre-alpha][pre-alpha] and a [vagrant][vagrant] version).

Q: Are there any rough estimates for the first release? is it more like
2 months or more like a year?

A: "When it's ready" :D

nextime responded "when it is ready, but at least I can assure that it
isn't a year".

## Devuan's Not Gnome

DNG is the discussion list of the Devuan Project.

- [Subscribe to the list][subscribe]
- [Subscribe to the feed][atom-feed]
- [Read online archives][archives]

---
Read you soon!

Devuan News is made by your peers: you're [welcome to contribute][wiki]!

+ Created by Noel "@Envite" Torres
+ @hellekin (editor at large)
+ @golinux (word wrangler)
+ @lightbringer (AKA. MinceR, sentence fixaupper)
+ @DocScrutinizer05 (proofreader)
+ @etech3 (markdown master in training MMIT)

--

[3]:
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150406.203624.a1b96212.en.html
"vdev status update"

[3a]:
https://git.devuan.org/pkgs-utopia-substitution/vdev/blob/master/how-to-test.md
"How to test vdev"

[4]:
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150503.224708.236843dd.en.html
"Financial report, 1st trimester 2015"

[5]:
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150505.105746.fea9a964.en.html
"Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?"

[6]:https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150505.065520.2303aae4.en.html
"A novice attempt to speed up Devuan development"

[7]:
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/thread/20150506.194559.3168e0c6.en.html
"Please stop vain discussion"

[8]:
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150503.043143.ff8d2240.en.html
"I used Devuan's debootstrap and installed Devuan"

[9]:
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150504.144806.e841d24a.en.html
"Linux boot documentation"

[pre-alpha]:
h

Re: [Dng] [dng] vdev status updates

[Jude Nelson]

On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 7:42 AM, Jack L. Frost  wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 08:03:02PM -0400, Jude Nelson wrote:
> > Hey everyone,
> >
> > I have the latest news for vdev:
>
> Hi. I dunno if it's very relevant to this particular mailing list, but
> still.
> I've packaged vdev and all its dependencies for Arch:
>
> https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/vdev-git
> https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/fskit-git
> https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/libpstat-git


Hey, this is pretty cool!  Thanks for taking the time to do this :D

I'm working on Debian packages at the moment.

-Jude
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[Dng] Devuan - Fork or Derivative (or perhaps both)

[Daniel Reurich]

Hi

I wonder if Devuan should rebrand it's relationship to Debian as a 
Derivative rather then a Fork.  It may help to smooth things over a bit.


This may also be a good marketing approach as well as reduce the 
hostility when we send bugreports and patches to debian.



Regards,
Daniel.
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Re: [Dng] Systemd discussions at LinuxQuestions.

[miroslav . rovis1]

On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 02:17:08PM -0700, James Powell wrote:
> Unfortunately the moderators at LinuxQuestions have closed off discussing the 
> Devuan stance topic that had been open and participate in over the repeated 
> squabbling, though honestly, very little was done other than the people who 
> seemed offended by the choice of Devuan's developers lack of choice of 
> systemd, and unwillingness to stop asking about funding and other repeatedly 
> defended arguments which turned the discussion of Devuan into a defense of 
> Devuan.
>
Hi James!

It would have made sense pasting in your message the address on LQ of that 
discussion, else, the burden is on everyone curious to know where that 
discussion might be to perform the same search.

In other words, you would have spared a few people the duck-ing 
(http://duckduckgo.com) for that remaining information (ducking for info; don't 
recommend google the surveillors to anybody ever; strictly my opinion).

Like this, it remains very incomplete.

Just saying. Have no time to discuss this or search for it myself and give to 
everybody the missing address. 

I have to go, because I have another message to write to this ML.

Thank you!
> Just to make it known, the LQ staff have not taken kindly to systemd topics 
> since many of the pro-systemd crowd seem to act more in attacking the stance 
> of being anti-systemd rather than the principles of being anti-systemd for 
> software sanity reasons. Very little real discussion of systemd's merits and 
> technicals (if topics even can be soundly made) ever seems to go anywhere due 
> to the crowd there.
> 
> This is unfortunate but due to the fact several staff members are from the 
> pro-systemd camp, and the fact the staff have made their decisions on those 
> topics, any discussion is probably going to continually go in that same 
> direction, and topics will go nowhere on that forum when that topic is 
> brought up.
> 
> I though I'd let you all know before going to the LinuxQuestions topic and 
> finding it locked out.
> 
> -Jim
> 
> Sent from my Windows Phone

> ___
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-- 
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Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr


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Re: [Dng] Systemd discussions at LinuxQuestions.

[Philip Lacroix]

I've read the mentioned thread, although not completely yet, and I 
appreciated Jude's and nextime's interventions. Guys, you met TobiSGD, 
who should be a LQ moderator but is also an active systemd advocate, 
according to what I've seen in the past (and more than ever on that very 
thread). Unfortunately, several systemd-related threads (as well as 
others about other "controversial" topics) have been turned into 
disgusting cesspits quite recently on LQ, hence I can understand why 
other moderators like unSpawn prefer not to see anything like that 
anymore. Too bad that the Devuan thread was closed down, but IMHO it was 
not because of Devuan as such: somebody, apparently, is not willing to 
clean up heaps of trolls' rubbish once again.


Best,
Philip


Am 10.05.2015 23:17 schrieb James Powell:

Unfortunately the moderators at LinuxQuestions have closed off
discussing the Devuan stance topic that had been open and participate
in over the repeated squabbling, though honestly, very little was done
other than the people who seemed offended by the choice of Devuan's
developers lack of choice of systemd, and unwillingness to stop asking
about funding and other repeatedly defended arguments which turned the
discussion of Devuan into a defense of Devuan.

Just to make it known, the LQ staff have not taken kindly to systemd
topics since many of the pro-systemd crowd seem to act more in
attacking the stance of being anti-systemd rather than the principles
of being anti-systemd for software sanity reasons. Very little real
discussion of systemd's merits and technicals (if topics even can be
soundly made) ever seems to go anywhere due to the crowd there.

This is unfortunate but due to the fact several staff members are from
the pro-systemd camp, and the fact the staff have made their decisions
on those topics, any discussion is probably going to continually go in
that same direction, and topics will go nowhere on that forum when
that topic is brought up.

I though I'd let you all know before going to the LinuxQuestions topic
and finding it locked out.

-Jim


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[Dng] No new posts since 2+ days, DN XXIV not published -- mail server broken?

[Joerg Reisenweber]

basically ignore this mail, it has no relevant content. Actually when you see 
it, it's moot ;-)

/j
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Re: [Dng] Systemd discussions at LinuxQuestions.

[miroslav . rovis1]

On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 02:17:08PM -0700, James Powell wrote:
> Unfortunately the moderators at LinuxQuestions have closed off discussing the 
> Devuan stance topic that had been open and participate in over the repeated 
> squabbling, though honestly, very little was done other than the people who 
> seemed offended by the choice of Devuan's developers lack of choice of 
> systemd, and unwillingness to stop asking about funding and other repeatedly 
> defended arguments which turned the discussion of Devuan into a defense of 
> Devuan.
>
Hi James!

It would have made sense pasting in your message the address on LQ of that 
discussion, else, the burden is on everyone curious to know where that 
discussion might be to perform the same search.

In other words, you would have spared a few people the duck-ing 
(http://duckduckgo.com) for that remaining information (ducking for info; don't 
recommend google the surveillors to anybody ever; strictly my opinion).

Like this, it remains very incomplete.

Just saying. Have no time to discuss this or search for it myself and give to 
everybody the missing address. 

I have to go, because I have another message to write to this ML.

Thank you!
> Just to make it known, the LQ staff have not taken kindly to systemd topics 
> since many of the pro-systemd crowd seem to act more in attacking the stance 
> of being anti-systemd rather than the principles of being anti-systemd for 
> software sanity reasons. Very little real discussion of systemd's merits and 
> technicals (if topics even can be soundly made) ever seems to go anywhere due 
> to the crowd there.
> 
> This is unfortunate but due to the fact several staff members are from the 
> pro-systemd camp, and the fact the staff have made their decisions on those 
> topics, any discussion is probably going to continually go in that same 
> direction, and topics will go nowhere on that forum when that topic is 
> brought up.
> 
> I though I'd let you all know before going to the LinuxQuestions topic and 
> finding it locked out.
> 
> -Jim
> 
> Sent from my Windows Phone

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-- 
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http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr


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Re: [Dng] why someone might want systemd on devuan

[T.J. Duchene]

>This is the exact situation in which I'm glad for containers and VMs.
>Use all the systemd you want, but keep it in a Biosafety level 4
>containment facility.

I'd use a VM. I suspect a container or chroot would not be sufficient.  =)


All jokes aside, this would be why I am watching the systembsd project to
see if they come up with a compatibility layer for systemd that does not
contain the icky parts we do not want.


T.J.


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Re: [Dng] Systemd discussions at LinuxQuestions.

[miroslav . rovis1]

On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 02:17:08PM -0700, James Powell wrote:
> Unfortunately the moderators at LinuxQuestions have closed off discussing the 
> Devuan stance topic that had been open and participate in over the repeated 
> squabbling, though honestly, very little was done other than the people who 
> seemed offended by the choice of Devuan's developers lack of choice of 
> systemd, and unwillingness to stop asking about funding and other repeatedly 
> defended arguments which turned the discussion of Devuan into a defense of 
> Devuan.
>
Hi James!

It would have made sense pasting in your message the address on LQ of that 
discussion, else, the burden is on everyone curious to know where that 
discussion might be to perform the same search.

In other words, you would have spared a few people the duck-ing 
(http://duckduckgo.com) for that remaining information (ducking for info; don't 
recommend google the surveillors to anybody ever; strictly my opinion).

Like this, it remains very incomplete.

Just saying. Have no time to discuss this or search for it myself and give to 
everybody the missing address. 

I have to go, because I have another message to write to this ML.

Thank you!
> Just to make it known, the LQ staff have not taken kindly to systemd topics 
> since many of the pro-systemd crowd seem to act more in attacking the stance 
> of being anti-systemd rather than the principles of being anti-systemd for 
> software sanity reasons. Very little real discussion of systemd's merits and 
> technicals (if topics even can be soundly made) ever seems to go anywhere due 
> to the crowd there.
> 
> This is unfortunate but due to the fact several staff members are from the 
> pro-systemd camp, and the fact the staff have made their decisions on those 
> topics, any discussion is probably going to continually go in that same 
> direction, and topics will go nowhere on that forum when that topic is 
> brought up.
> 
> I though I'd let you all know before going to the LinuxQuestions topic and 
> finding it locked out.
> 
> -Jim
> 
> Sent from my Windows Phone

> ___
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-- 
Miroslav Rovis
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http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr


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[Dng] Is it useful to create a .so file to replace functions imported from libsystemd & Co.?

[T.J. Duchene]

With respect, Edward, I can't imagine why you are taking the "long way
around" in regards to systemd  XFCE 4.12 can be compiled without systemd to
my knowledge.   That would eliminate any concerns.


T.J.


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[Dng] Devuan Jessie repo (in the meantime)

[Jaret Cantu]

Hey there, every-Devuan:


Is this list just being unusually quiet, or is my email broken?  Or is 
dng broken?


Anyway, I have set up a repo to which I am frequently pushing new 
packages from git.devuan.org not yet served from packages.devuan.org.  
(And some new gnome packages as I strip and build them -- still working 
on getting that up and running, however.)  You can use this repo in the 
meantime until Devuan gets a complete repository.


My repo serves 32- and 64-bit x86 as well as the modified sources, so it 
should be easy for others to debuild the packages and serve them from 
your own repository, too.  Considering that my server is just an old 
board sitting in my apartment which suffers from frequent power outages 
(and will suffer more due to neighbors running air during summer days), 
re-serving these packages elsewhere probably isn't a bad idea.


Of note, I am serving the necessary xfce4 packages from the 
git.devuan.org.  I am also serving pulseaudio, which I haven't seen in 
any of the other systemd-free repos.
I know angband.pl also serves systemd-less xfce packages, but I don't 
see xfce4-session there, which does have systemd requirements.


With the below apt/sources.list entry, I was able to install a fully 
functional Devuan xfce desktop.  I'm using it right now!  My repo just 
fills in some gaps.



deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://pkg.realitysend.net/devuan meantime main
deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://packages.devuan.org/devuan jessie main
deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://packages.devuan.org/merged jessie main


Get some more desktop-y filth by tacking on:

deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian jessie contrib 
non-free



Get the public key lazily:

wget -O- http://pkg.realitysend.net/realitysend-archive-20150510.gpg | 
sudo apt-key add -



And lookit:

[jaret@ragnarok ~]$ dpkg -l '*systemd*'
Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold
| 
Status=Not/Inst/Conf-files/Unpacked/halF-conf/Half-inst/trig-aWait/Trig-pend

|/ Err?=(none)/Reinst-required (Status,Err: uppercase=bad)
||/ Name   Version  Architecture Description
+++-==---=
un  systemd  (no description available)
un  systemd-sysv (no description available)


Sure, it still uses udev, sure, but otherwise pretty good!


Enjoy!

Jaret Cantu
Started typing my work signature out of habit and fortunately caught myself
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[Dng] stonix

[Roy Nielsen]

Hello,

We released a (beta) security tool to give non-windows operating systems a
base level of security based on government guideline and industry best
practices.

https://github.com/CSD-Public/stonix

The documentation is a bit sketchy, but feel free to check it out.

Let me know if I can answer any questions.

Regards,
-Roy
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[Dng] Systemd discussions at LinuxQuestions

[Matt]

It's sad there is so much hostility to people who struggle to keep init freedom 
available, I am very thankful to the devs of devuan ! 

On May 11, 2015 5:00:02 AM PDT, dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org wrote:
>Send Dng mailing list submissions to
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>Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Systemd discussions at LinuxQuestions. (James Powell)
>
>
>--
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 14:17:08 -0700
>From: James Powell 
>To: 
>Subject: [Dng] Systemd discussions at LinuxQuestions.
>Message-ID: 
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
>Unfortunately the moderators at LinuxQuestions have closed off
>discussing the Devuan stance topic that had been open and participate
>in over the repeated squabbling, though honestly, very little was done
>other than the people who seemed offended by the choice of Devuan's
>developers lack of choice of systemd, and unwillingness to stop asking
>about funding and other repeatedly defended arguments which turned the
>discussion of Devuan into a defense of Devuan.
>
>Just to make it known, the LQ staff have not taken kindly to systemd
>topics since many of the pro-systemd crowd seem to act more in
>attacking the stance of being anti-systemd rather than the principles
>of being anti-systemd for software sanity reasons. Very little real
>discussion of systemd's merits and technicals (if topics even can be
>soundly made) ever seems to go anywhere due to the crowd there.
>
>This is unfortunate but due to the fact several staff members are from
>the pro-systemd camp, and the fact the staff have made their decisions
>on those topics, any discussion is probably going to continually go in
>that same direction, and topics will go nowhere on that forum when that
>topic is brought up.
>
>I though I'd let you all know before going to the LinuxQuestions topic
>and finding it locked out.
>
>-Jim
>
>Sent from my Windows Phone
>-- next part --
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>
>
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>End of Dng Digest, Vol 8, Issue 34
>**

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Re: [Dng] Valentine alpha: Was: Re: Financial report, 1st trimester 2015

[Svante Signell]

On Wed, 2015-05-13 at 00:24 -0400, JeremyBekka C wrote:
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 11:03:22 +0200
> From: Svante Signell 
> To: dng@lists.dyne.org
> Subject: [Dng] Valentine alpha: Was: Re:  Financial report, 1st
> trimester 2015
> Message-ID: <1430730202.4404.91.ca...@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-15"

> 
> Thanks for the link. I tried following the instructions but not sure
> if I did this right.I was not sure what to do and I could not get the
> dpkg commands to work as given in that post. What I did was
> change /etc/apt/sources/list to the following:
> 
> #Devuan Sources
> deb http://packages.devuan.org/merged ascii main contrib non-free

This might be a problem. ascii is testing/stretch, but probably not.
However, don't use that if you want stable/wheezy.

I think it is the debian jessie repos, remove these:
deb http://debian.uchicago.edu/debian/ jessie main
deb http://security.debian.org/ jessie/updates main
deb http://debian.uchicago.edu/debian/ jessie-updates main

> Everything seems to work fine, but I wanted to install gparted and I
> got the following error:
> 
> The following packages have unmet dependencies:
>  modemmanager : Breaks: network-manager (< 0.9.8.2-1) but 0.9.4.0-10
> is to be installed

I just installed gparted and got 0.19.0-2.

apt-get -s install network-manager gave
 network-manager : Depends: libpam-systemd but it is not going to be
installed

Did you set the preferences files correctly? #
cat /etc/apt/preferences.d/avoid-systemd 
Package: systemd-sysv
Pin: release o=Debian
Pin-Priority: -1

# cat /etc/apt/preferences.d/systemd 
Package: systemd
Pin: release o=Debian
Pin-Priority: -1


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Re: [Dng] A novice attempt to speed up Devuan development

[Anto]

On 13/05/15 03:12, David Hare wrote:
While we're waiting for vdev (that does look like the way to go) I 
revisited eudev, which I never managed to get working in a usable way.


Did much better this time after some not too major hacking of the 
source posted on devuan git, mostly "rules" and "patches". I now got 
it working seemingly (too early to be sure) quite well. My usb wlan 
device works, other removables pop up normally and zero (udev) errors 
in dmesg output!


This did involve dpkg -P --force-all on existing udev components 
first. Got a totally trashed system numerous times, which had to be 
recovered in a chroot, before getting it going with yet another rebuild..


More later, after a little testing.

D


Hello David,

I have to admit that I lied when I wrote on one of that threads that "I 
am done with eudev". :)


That fact is that I have been still searching and hoping that someone 
managed to use eudev in Debian based distros, and posted that in the 
internet like what you did. Would you plan to update 
https://git.devuan.org/pkgs-utopia-substitution/devuan-eudev, so we can 
try that as well?


Like you, I am also waiting for vdev and I am trying to help Jude as 
much as  I can. But I think it would be good to have some options, while 
we are waiting for vdev to stabilise.


Cheers,

Anto

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Re: [Dng] No new posts since 2+ days, DN XXIV not published -- mail server broken?

[Jaromil]

On Tue, 12 May 2015, Joerg Reisenweber wrote:

> basically ignore this mail, it has no relevant content. Actually when you see 
> it, it's moot ;-)

well it contains some truth, indeed the postfix queue needed some
attention, no mails were lost, the last 3 days of traffic was just
delivered. thanks all for your patience

ciao

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Re: [Dng] A novice attempt to speed up Devuan development

[T.J. Duchene]

> -Original Message-
> From: Dng [mailto:dng-boun...@lists.dyne.org] On Behalf Of David Hare
> Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2015 8:12 PM
> To: dng@lists.dyne.org
> Subject: Re: [Dng] A novice attempt to speed up Devuan development
> 
> While we're waiting for vdev (that does look like the way to go) I revisited
> eudev, which I never managed to get working in a usable way.

Has something happened with standard udev that you are looking to switch?  I've 
not heard anything lately, but that does not make immediate sense to me.  

Granted, the future of udev is in consideration with regard to systemd 
maintenance, but has it an immediate issue that affects Devuan release?  If it 
is not, I would respectfully submit that that the thread should be marked as 
[research] or [dev] in some way as to not detract attention from what really 
needs focus presently.  

Have a great day!


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Re: [Dng] Devuan - Fork or Derivative (or perhaps both)

[T.J. Duchene]

> -Original Message-
> From: Dng [mailto:dng-boun...@lists.dyne.org] On Behalf Of Daniel 
> Reurich
> Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2015 3:58 PM
> To: dng@lists.dyne.org
> Subject: [Dng] Devuan - Fork or Derivative (or perhaps both)
> 
> Hi
> 
> I wonder if Devuan should rebrand its relationship to Debian as a 
> Derivative rather than a Fork.  It may help to smooth things over a bit.

With respect,  Devuan is a fork.  It was born not out a need to adapt Debian
for a particular use, but because Debian and Devuan deliberately parted
company over  philosophical and practical problems: software maintenance and
committee politics.  There is no healing that breach.  Devuan and Debian are
just too different.  Just because they have disagreements does not mean that
they have to be hostile.  There is such a thing as agreeing to disagree, and
remaining civil or even friends.  Devuan needs to go its own way, free of
systemd, but most importantly free of any need to be beholden to Debian's
way of doing things.

> 
> This may also be a good marketing approach as well as reduce the 
> hostility when we send bugreports and patches to debian.

Just politely give them the patches and reports.  If they refuse them at
some point, then it is not Devuan's fault, but Debian's.  Anyone is going to
be hostile, let it be Debian.   I think that Devuan wants to, it can hold
itself to a higher standard. It need not get mired in the same bickering
that Debian does. 

Just my two cents



T.J.


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Re: [Dng] Systemd discussions at LinuxQuestions.

[James Powell]

Unfortunately this seems to be a growing trend following the Microsoft playbook 
of acquisition, suppression, and extinction on various Linux communities and 
mailing lists I've been privy to as of recent.

Fewer and fewer distributions have avoided systemd but discussion into 
alternatives is growingly met with hostilities. ArchLinux took a severe 
hardline approach and rampantly banned any anti-systemd topics and users as 
well as anyone offering alternatives. While LQ has been trying to maintain 
neutrality as a position, growing numbers of systemd fanboys who immediately 
attack and troll people just to get them hushed or banned is climbing.

If you read the other, long closed, systemd topics, there are several trolls 
who have mercilessly attacked several users including TobiSGD.

Trying to talk technicality on systemd gets futile unless you are pro-systemd.

-Jim

P.S. - I'm working on a better email client, but unfortunately this is all I 
can manage currently. Sorry if it's awkward for Devuan's mailing list here.

Sent from my Windows Phone

From: Philip Lacroix
Sent: ‎5/‎13/‎2015 9:15 AM
To: dng@lists.dyne.org
Subject: Re: [Dng] Systemd discussions at LinuxQuestions.

I've read the mentioned thread, although not completely yet, and I
appreciated Jude's and nextime's interventions. Guys, you met TobiSGD,
who should be a LQ moderator but is also an active systemd advocate,
according to what I've seen in the past (and more than ever on that very
thread). Unfortunately, several systemd-related threads (as well as
others about other "controversial" topics) have been turned into
disgusting cesspits quite recently on LQ, hence I can understand why
other moderators like unSpawn prefer not to see anything like that
anymore. Too bad that the Devuan thread was closed down, but IMHO it was
not because of Devuan as such: somebody, apparently, is not willing to
clean up heaps of trolls' rubbish once again.

Best,
Philip


Am 10.05.2015 23:17 schrieb James Powell:
> Unfortunately the moderators at LinuxQuestions have closed off
> discussing the Devuan stance topic that had been open and participate
> in over the repeated squabbling, though honestly, very little was done
> other than the people who seemed offended by the choice of Devuan's
> developers lack of choice of systemd, and unwillingness to stop asking
> about funding and other repeatedly defended arguments which turned the
> discussion of Devuan into a defense of Devuan.
>
> Just to make it known, the LQ staff have not taken kindly to systemd
> topics since many of the pro-systemd crowd seem to act more in
> attacking the stance of being anti-systemd rather than the principles
> of being anti-systemd for software sanity reasons. Very little real
> discussion of systemd's merits and technicals (if topics even can be
> soundly made) ever seems to go anywhere due to the crowd there.
>
> This is unfortunate but due to the fact several staff members are from
> the pro-systemd camp, and the fact the staff have made their decisions
> on those topics, any discussion is probably going to continually go in
> that same direction, and topics will go nowhere on that forum when
> that topic is brought up.
>
> I though I'd let you all know before going to the LinuxQuestions topic
> and finding it locked out.
>
> -Jim

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[Dng] [dng] vdev status update (2015-05-03)

[Jude Nelson]

Hey everyone,

I have the latest news for vdev:

* vdev now creates symlinks for:
-- /dev/v4l/by-path
-- /dev/disk/by-partuuid
-- /dev/disk/by-partlabel

Thank you Scooby for helping me confirm this!

* vdev now sets the proper ownership and permissions for:
-- /dev/mISDNtimer
-- /dev/mwave
-- /dev/parport[0-9]
-- /dev/printer
-- /dev/ppdev
-- /dev/lp[0-9]
-- /dev/irlpt[0-9]
-- /dev/sch[0-9]
-- /dev/pktcdvd[0-9]
-- /dev/qft[0-9]
-- /dev/zqft[0-9]
-- /dev/nqft[0-9]
-- /dev/nzqft[0-9]
-- /dev/rawqft[0-9]
-- /dev/nraqft[0-9]
-- /dev/rawctl
-- /dev/aoe
-- /dev/lirc[0-9]
-- /dev/legousbtower
-- /dev/sonypi
-- /dev/mmtimer
-- /dev/sgi_*
-- /dev/z90crypt

* Didier Kryn has gotten vdevd and vdevfs to statically link and compile
with musl libc.  I'm looking forward to merging his contributions :)

* the build system has been refactored to use Makefiles more appropriately:
-- every generated file gets written to a separate build/ directory
-- every generated file is created by a non-phony target (i.e. nothing
happens by side-effect)
-- global buildconf.mk for setting variables
Thanks to Didier again for the suggestion!

* the initramfs hook conditionally pulls in iproute2, lvm, dmsetup, blkid,
etc.  Moreover, vdev's helpers conditionally use these programs if they are
present.  This means that vdev doesn't strictly depend on them anymore,
which is good if you're not using mapped devices or logical volumes.
Thanks to Anto for the suggestion!

* the initramfs hook pulls in the correct GNU libc files now, so chown(1)
will work correctly in the initramfs.  Thanks to Scooby, Isaac Dunham, Tom
H for their help!


[For Next Time]

* The next immediate objective is to package vdevd for Devuan, to make it
easier to test (in particular, easier to get a working initramfs).  I'm
currently dissecting udev's packaging and reading through Isaac's mdev
scripts to see what to expect and what we can recycle.  I've never packaged
something this complex before.  Thanks to Scooby, Anto, Tom H, and others
for all their help on getting me this far!

* Symlinks and permissions for RAID devices (/dev/md[0-9] and friends).  I
don't run a RAID myself, so I'll need to go set one up in QEMU.  If someone
wants to test vdev with a RAID, let me know, and I'll try to write a helper
script to play around with sooner rather than later.

* In some distros and configurations, a separate device manager (like mdev)
can populate just enough of /dev to mount root, but not try to set up any
symlinks.  Vdevd must have a way for the admin to tell it to run helper
scripts for the device even if its device node was already created
(indicating that it has been set up), so the symlinks and permissions still
get set appropriately.  Thanks to Scooby for reporting this!

Thanks,
-Jude
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Re: [Dng] Systemd discussions at LinuxQuestions.

[T.J. Duchene]

 

 

Unfortunately this seems to be a growing trend following the Microsoft playbook 
of acquisition, suppression, and extinction on various Linux communities and 
mailing lists I've been privy to as of recent.

Fewer and fewer distributions have avoided systemd but discussion into 
alternatives is growingly met with hostilities. ArchLinux took a severe 
hardline approach and rampantly banned any anti-systemd topics and users as 
well as anyone offering alternatives. While LQ has been trying to maintain 
neutrality as a position, growing numbers of systemd fanboys who immediately 
attack and troll people just to get them hushed or banned is climbing.

 

In advance, I just want to say that what I am about to say is my own opinion 
and in no way reflects or represents anyone else.

 

Put politely as possible: “Stuff them.”   

 

I do not think that this is any one person, community or agenda.  The Linux 
community for the most part has been dominated by communities beholden to a 
particular version of Linux and never to Linux as a whole.  This encourages 
“group think.”  Once you get them fixated on anything – it does not have to be 
systemd – it could be package format or filesystem, everyone else is wrong and 
they are right.  It does not matter what the  reasons are.  Almost all 
individual impulse is subsumed.  When someone objects, for example Ian Jackson 
over at Debian, the community becomes so hostile that they leave.   

 

I just use the code.  That is the whole point of opensource, and if people do 
not like my opinions then so be it.  I seldom participate in Linux communities 
outside of developer discussions or help topics.  Devuan is an exception.  I 
came back, because for some reason I am genuinely curious about what goes on 
here.  In the main, it is my opinion that the entire community is just too 
toxic.  Just like politics, people have become intolerant beyond reason.  I try 
very hard to be reasonable, but I frown on Linux these days.

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Re: [Dng] Systemd discussions at LinuxQuestions.

[T.J. Duchene]

I am reposting this with apologies to all concerned.  Outlook mangled the
message text.  The top few paragraphs were not my own.  They belong to James
P.  




>Unfortunately this seems to be a growing trend following the Microsoft
playbook of acquisition, suppression, and extinction on various Linux
communities and mailing lists I've been privy to as of recent.

>Fewer and fewer distributions have avoided systemd but discussion into
alternatives is growingly met with hostilities. ArchLinux took a severe
hardline approach and rampantly banned any anti-systemd topics and users as
well as anyone offering alternatives. While LQ has been trying to maintain
neutrality >as a position, growing numbers of systemd fanboys who
immediately attack and troll people just to get them hushed or banned is
climbing.

>In advance, I just want to say that what I am about to say is my own
opinion and in no way reflects or represents anyone else.



Put politely as possible: "Stuff them."   

I do not think that this is any one person, community or agenda.  The Linux
community for the most part has been dominated by communities beholden to a
particular version of Linux and never to Linux as a whole.  This encourages
"group think."  Once you get them fixated on anything - it does not have to
be systemd - it could be package format or filesystem, everyone else is
wrong and they are right.  It does not matter what the  reasons are.  Almost
all individual impulse is subsumed.  When someone objects, for example Ian
Jackson over at Debian, the community becomes so hostile that they leave.   

I just use the code.  That is the whole point of opensource, and if people
do not like my opinions then so be it.  I seldom participate in Linux
communities outside of developer discussions or help topics.  Devuan is an
exception.  I came back, because for some reason I am genuinely curious
about what goes on here.  In the main, it is my opinion that the entire
community is just too toxic.  Just like politics, people have become
intolerant beyond reason.  I try very hard to be reasonable, but I frown on
Linux these days.

T.J.


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Re: [Dng] Systemd discussions at LinuxQuestions.

[James Powell]

I agree T. J.

The problem is too much "thinking" about problems, rather than offering a clear 
solution other than scrapping the fore and replacing it entirely seems to be 
the source of the problem.

One argument I stand by adamantly is that while sysvinit was imperfect in 
design, it left room to allow the tree to branch in various ways with the 
applied tools. OpenRC is a prime example of taking sysvinit and expanding upon 
it in a way that allows for diversity just like daemontools, bsd-style 
scripting, and other service supervisors do brilliantly. Sysvinit doesn't have 
to be the workhorse, but it can be the harness providing the standard functions 
of startup and shutdown for the workhorse of your choosing.

However few people are willing to step outside their boxes and look for ways to 
improve systems without resulting to rampant progressivism with new software 
than isn't even finished in it's goals.

In the late 90s Dan Bernstein's daemontools could have ended the overreliance 
on sysvinit, but few embraced it.

Now we see the rush to "do" when something comes along to create a rift. No ill 
will to anyone, but if anyone had have "done" years ago, there might be less a 
need to "do" now.

Sent from my Windows Phone

From: T.J. Duchene
Sent: ‎5/‎13/‎2015 8:27 PM
To: dng@lists.dyne.org
Subject: Re: [Dng] Systemd discussions at LinuxQuestions.





Unfortunately this seems to be a growing trend following the Microsoft playbook 
of acquisition, suppression, and extinction on various Linux communities and 
mailing lists I've been privy to as of recent.

Fewer and fewer distributions have avoided systemd but discussion into 
alternatives is growingly met with hostilities. ArchLinux took a severe 
hardline approach and rampantly banned any anti-systemd topics and users as 
well as anyone offering alternatives. While LQ has been trying to maintain 
neutrality as a position, growing numbers of systemd fanboys who immediately 
attack and troll people just to get them hushed or banned is climbing.



In advance, I just want to say that what I am about to say is my own opinion 
and in no way reflects or represents anyone else.



Put politely as possible: “Stuff them.”



I do not think that this is any one person, community or agenda.  The Linux 
community for the most part has been dominated by communities beholden to a 
particular version of Linux and never to Linux as a whole.  This encourages 
“group think.”  Once you get them fixated on anything – it does not have to be 
systemd – it could be package format or filesystem, everyone else is wrong and 
they are right.  It does not matter what the  reasons are.  Almost all 
individual impulse is subsumed.  When someone objects, for example Ian Jackson 
over at Debian, the community becomes so hostile that they leave.



I just use the code.  That is the whole point of opensource, and if people do 
not like my opinions then so be it.  I seldom participate in Linux communities 
outside of developer discussions or help topics.  Devuan is an exception.  I 
came back, because for some reason I am genuinely curious about what goes on 
here.  In the main, it is my opinion that the entire community is just too 
toxic.  Just like politics, people have become intolerant beyond reason.  I try 
very hard to be reasonable, but I frown on Linux these days.

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Re: [Dng] [dng] vdev status update (2015-05-03)

[James Powell]

Thanks Jude.

The Slackware package is delayed, but only due to the lack of a Slackware style 
script. I might try to ask one of the Slackware team for assistance when I 
resume work. However, the package is fairly much completed in terms of 
installation points and directory setup.

Sent from my Windows Phone

From: Jude Nelson
Sent: ‎5/‎13/‎2015 8:24 PM
To: dng@lists.dyne.org
Subject: [Dng] [dng] vdev status update (2015-05-03)

Hey everyone,

I have the latest news for vdev:

* vdev now creates symlinks for:
-- /dev/v4l/by-path
-- /dev/disk/by-partuuid
-- /dev/disk/by-partlabel

Thank you Scooby for helping me confirm this!

* vdev now sets the proper ownership and permissions for:
-- /dev/mISDNtimer
-- /dev/mwave
-- /dev/parport[0-9]
-- /dev/printer
-- /dev/ppdev
-- /dev/lp[0-9]
-- /dev/irlpt[0-9]
-- /dev/sch[0-9]
-- /dev/pktcdvd[0-9]
-- /dev/qft[0-9]
-- /dev/zqft[0-9]
-- /dev/nqft[0-9]
-- /dev/nzqft[0-9]
-- /dev/rawqft[0-9]
-- /dev/nraqft[0-9]
-- /dev/rawctl
-- /dev/aoe
-- /dev/lirc[0-9]
-- /dev/legousbtower
-- /dev/sonypi
-- /dev/mmtimer
-- /dev/sgi_*
-- /dev/z90crypt

* Didier Kryn has gotten vdevd and vdevfs to statically link and compile
with musl libc.  I'm looking forward to merging his contributions :)

* the build system has been refactored to use Makefiles more appropriately:
-- every generated file gets written to a separate build/ directory
-- every generated file is created by a non-phony target (i.e. nothing
happens by side-effect)
-- global buildconf.mk for setting variables
Thanks to Didier again for the suggestion!

* the initramfs hook conditionally pulls in iproute2, lvm, dmsetup, blkid,
etc.  Moreover, vdev's helpers conditionally use these programs if they are
present.  This means that vdev doesn't strictly depend on them anymore,
which is good if you're not using mapped devices or logical volumes.
Thanks to Anto for the suggestion!

* the initramfs hook pulls in the correct GNU libc files now, so chown(1)
will work correctly in the initramfs.  Thanks to Scooby, Isaac Dunham, Tom
H for their help!


[For Next Time]

* The next immediate objective is to package vdevd for Devuan, to make it
easier to test (in particular, easier to get a working initramfs).  I'm
currently dissecting udev's packaging and reading through Isaac's mdev
scripts to see what to expect and what we can recycle.  I've never packaged
something this complex before.  Thanks to Scooby, Anto, Tom H, and others
for all their help on getting me this far!

* Symlinks and permissions for RAID devices (/dev/md[0-9] and friends).  I
don't run a RAID myself, so I'll need to go set one up in QEMU.  If someone
wants to test vdev with a RAID, let me know, and I'll try to write a helper
script to play around with sooner rather than later.

* In some distros and configurations, a separate device manager (like mdev)
can populate just enough of /dev to mount root, but not try to set up any
symlinks.  Vdevd must have a way for the admin to tell it to run helper
scripts for the device even if its device node was already created
(indicating that it has been set up), so the symlinks and permissions still
get set appropriately.  Thanks to Scooby for reporting this!

Thanks,
-Jude
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