Re: [Dng] What about pulseaudio, avahi, ... ?

[Didier Kryn]

Le 02/04/2015 23:51, Chris Kalin a écrit :

Avahi going away, or at least not being a requirement for CUPS, would be nice.  
(Or a cups-noavahi).  I'm running a corporate network with statically defined 
printers, I don't need or want my print server trying to autodetect anything.

Cups is a pretty confuse thing. It provides a "client" and a 
"server". If you only install the client, then you are bound to only one 
server, configured statically, fine for a desktop with no printer 
attached. This is not convenient on a laptop. For roaming, you need the 
"server". I don't know how to qualify this contraption since the cups 
server is also a client and a much better client than their "client". 
Used as a client, the cups "server" allows roaming.


This Cups "server" is very badly configured by default, in 
particular on Mac and on Debian as well: browsing all available servers 
for printers and exporting these away. This leads to print jobs 
circulating across laptops before reaching the printer. The first thing 
the admin should do is to decide which host is a server and which is a 
client, and not let any host be both.


The cups stations used as clients should be configured with a list 
of possible servers, like one at work and one at home. Using automatic 
discovery would be fine if one could assume that servers are only 
servers and clients are only clients, but Cups authors apparently 
decided to mess up everything.


Didier

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Re: [Dng] Another reason of why I am considering Devuan

[Martin Steigerwald]

Please do not Cc me personally on your reply.


Am Donnerstag, 2. April 2015, 20:30:23 schrieb T.J. Duchene:
> > Where i come from ISP's dynamic IP lease times are *very* long, you
> > need to reboot the home router to get a new IP and even then you may
> > get the same IP. It's not that dynamic, at all. Add that with data
> > your browser provides, your *.google.com in|direct usage, etc... it's
> > easy to correlate and monetize.
> 
> [T.J. ] Hi, Nuno!
> 
> I used to work for multiple ISPs, and I can tell you a few things for
> what little they are worth. The source and destination IPs are tagged
> on each packet sent over Internet. If you are tracking someone from a
> browser, which is a higher level protocol than DNS, you have no need to
> correlate DNS calls.  Worrying about providers logging DNS traffic is a
> fairly pointless time waster.

T.J. in using 8.8.8.8 as DNS server Google gets all the DNS queries. The 
DNS server thus gets all the domains my client requests. With HTTP only 
the server who I access and all the references URLs from the websites, 
unless using something like the combination of Privoxy and Request Policy 
iceweasel plugin, gets to know this information.

Having a default DNS thus means that the data is *centralized*.

If everyone uses their own providers DNS, it is spread around.

I think this makes a huge difference. I think Google is dangerous, cause 
they are too big. They collect too much data.

The more user data you have, the people who want to use that user data for 
legitimate or especially illegitimate purpose have a reason to try to get 
that data from you. And also the more reason the data collector itself, 
i.e. Google in that case, has to use that data.


That said, the fallback DNS is only used if no other DNS is configured. 
Which IMHO is quite unusually.

Still: I see no point in having a default DNS. No point whatsoever. If at 
all it should be opt-in, rather than opt-out.

On installation Debian asks network data. On DHCP it gets DNS. If on the 
router DNS is not configured, then make that *visible* instead of hiding it 
behind a default that may even harm network latency cause the local DNS 
server may have lower latency than the default one.

I think the failback DNS case is a nice case for how just cause its in 
systemd doesn´t mean it is right for everyone. And I think thats exactly 
the issue with systemd upstream developers. Often they claim to have it 
right for everyone or the majority. And often they seem to use a similar 
kind of argumentation in calling the ones giving feedback as being such 
and such.


Just cause someone doesn´t like google DNS as a default doesn´t mean he or 
she is paranoid. So please stay away from personal attacks.

Thank you,
-- 
Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de
GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA  B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7
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Re: [Dng] Another reason of why I am considering Devuan

[marcxdv]

> 
> I used to work for multiple ISPs, and I can tell you a few things for what 
> little they are worth. The source and destination IPs are tagged on each 
> packet sent over Internet. If you are tracking someone from a browser, which 
> is a higher level protocol than DNS, you have no need to correlate DNS calls. 
>  Worrying about providers logging DNS traffic is a fairly pointless time 
> waster.
> 

Are you sure this line of reasoning is consistent:

- Martin was justifiably upset that if he sets *no* nameserver,
  the code defaults to google, and that this behaviour won't be
  changed

- First of all: no name server should mean *no* nameserver (cause
  maybe he only wants to serve names out of /etc/hosts only or
  something). Remember: No means no - the software should obey
  its users not the other way around

- You said google wasn't a problem cause the ISP might log
  DNS as well, so one might as well go with google

- Now you appear to say that the ISP could log/see anything at a 
  different level anyway. This implies that if we were to 
  use google DNS, *both* google *and* the ISP have the data, while if 
  one were to go with the ISP DNS, then *only* the ISP would have it, which
  we can agree is a better situation (the latter being a proper
  subset of the former). Particularly as there are many ISPs - so
  the data isn't as concentrated, and some ISPs actually operate
  in jurisdictions with some privacy protections

- On top of that you don't think google is that bad cause you say:

  "Even so, if Google is monetizing DNS data, Adam, in what way does
  that violate anyone's privacy?  DNS calls are nonspecific
  data, associated only with your carrier's dynamic IP address,
  not a specific user."

  So DNS queries can be lined with HTTP requests, and if you
  pay attention to the number of sites with googleanalytics or
  googleapis in them, it is trivial for google work out the full
  set of DNS requests on a per person basis too. You said you worked 
  for multiple ISPs - surely this would be obvious then ?

  Now recall that google was bust in France for collecting not only
  street-view pictures but also sniffing wireless access points. And now
  with all the andriod phones in the wild, we have google trying to
  know the password, mac addresses and building photo for most access 
  points on the planet - are you really sure we should trust them 
  with even more data ?

  Could it be we have some sort of Stockholm Syndrome where people
  whose data is captured at google start emphasising with the captor ? 
  Or maybe we dimly remember that somewhere they use Linux and claimed 
  that they weren't doing evil, so that is all ok, lalala ? Maybe we 
  aren't immune to marketing after all, and careful lines of reasoning 
  get clobbered by those with adwords ?

regards

marc
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Re: [Dng] Another reason of why I am considering Devuan

[Didier Kryn]

Le 03/04/2015 11:10, marc...@welz.org.za a écrit :

   Could it be we have some sort of Stockholm Syndrome where people
   whose data is captured at google start emphasising with the captor ?
   Or maybe we dimly remember that somewhere they use Linux and claimed
   that they weren't doing evil, so that is all ok, lalala ?


Simpler and easier to explain than Stockolm Syndrom: feeling 
threatened about something is an uncomfortable psychological situation. 
If you can convince yourself that there's no threat, you immediately 
feel better. Hence the trend to deny the threat. It's relatively spread, 
about global warming for example.


For what concerns Google, there's the well known principle to make 
one's mind: if a for-profit company provides you a service for free, 
then you're not the client, you're the product.


Didier

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Re: [Dng] nameservers

[Gulbrandsen]

I have always thought that Google DNS is an attack against the ISPs 
that want to use their resolvers to act as gatekeepers, divert their 
customers to a different site, inject ads etc. Google needs your 
ability to access the real net for its profit.


Arnt
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Re: [Dng] Another reason of why I am considering Devuan

[Martin Steigerwald]

Am Freitag, 3. April 2015, 10:35:45 schrieb Martin Steigerwald:
> That said, the fallback DNS is only used if no other DNS is configured. 
> Which IMHO is quite unusually.

I think not even then, cause I think systemd-resolved is not used, unless 
activated and configured to be used in nsswitch.conf

For now with current Sid Debian still uses good old ifupdown and glibc 
resolver.

-- 
Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de
GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA  B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7
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Re: [Dng] X and GPUs

[Ron]

On Thu, 2 Apr 2015 20:46:13 -0600
Gordon Haverland  wrote:

> Originally, the reason people bought graphics cards (or better graphics
> cards) was to improve graphics performance.  Which to a dinosaur like
> me means X11 and X servers.

With due respect, your Worship, the reason people originally bought graphic 
cards (Hercules IIRC) was to get some graphic display posibility, in days when 
the PC could only display text in MDA mode...
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
   The moment the slave resolves that he will no longer be a slave,
   his fetters fall. He frees himself and shows the way to others.
Freedom and slavery are mental states.
  -- Mahatma Gandhi

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 

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Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 11:36 PM, Franco Lanza  wrote:
> Personally on debian i was using from date
>
> APT:Install-Recommends "0";
> APT:Install-Suggests "0";

+1
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Re: [Dng] Another reason of why I am considering Devuan

[Hendrik Boom]

On Thu, Apr 02, 2015 at 02:52:46PM -0500, T.J. Duchene wrote:
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Adam Borowski [mailto:kilob...@angband.pl]
> > 
> > Then why not set up a recursor by default?  Benefits include:
> > * avoiding this privacy issue
> > * caching
> > * secure DNSSEC (no last mile issues)
> 

> [T.J. ] Oh I agree, however, there is no accounting for taste or common
> sense.  Each of these Linux distributors has their own quirks that everyone
> who uses their Linux is subjected to.  

If I recall correctly, so far *every* Linux I've used uses an external 
DNS by default instead of installing its own recursor.

I figure there must be a reason, but I don't know what it is.

-- hendrik
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Re: [Dng] Another reason of why I am considering Devuan

[Hendrik Boom]

On Thu, Apr 02, 2015 at 09:40:09PM +0100, Nuno Magalhães wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 8:52 PM, T.J. Duchene  wrote:
> > DNS calls are nonspecific
> > data, associated only with your carrier's dynamic IP address, not a specific
> > user.
> 
> Where i come from ISP's dynamic IP lease times are *very* long, you
> need to reboot the home router to get a new IP and even then you may
> get the same IP. It's not that dynamic, at all. Add that with data
> your browser provides, your *.google.com in|direct usage, etc... it's
> easy to correlate and monetize.

Don't assume even that every home uses has a temporary IP number.
Mine is permanant.

-- hendrik
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Re: [Dng] Another reason of why I am considering Devuan

[william moss]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On 04/03/2015 10:33 AM, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 02, 2015 at 02:52:46PM -0500, T.J. Duchene wrote:
>>
>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Adam Borowski [mailto:kilob...@angband.pl]
>>>
>>> Then why not set up a recursor by default?  Benefits include:
>>> * avoiding this privacy issue
>>> * caching
>>> * secure DNSSEC (no last mile issues)
>>
> 
>> [T.J. ] Oh I agree, however, there is no accounting for taste or common
>> sense.  Each of these Linux distributors has their own quirks that everyone
>> who uses their Linux is subjected to.  
> 
> If I recall correctly, so far *every* Linux I've used uses an external 
> DNS by default instead of installing its own recursor.
> 
> I figure there must be a reason, but I don't know what it is.
> 
> -- hendrik

Setting up a local name (bind(8)) server is moderately complex. In a
complete installation, there are multiple file. A typical bind(8) setup
includes, for each logical segment X.Y.Z.0 with the domain name
'DomainName':

/var/named/DomainName/
  X.Y.Z.forward 
  controls
  domain.master
  domain.slave  
  forward
  reverse
  zone.master
  zone.slave

Maintaining this is a pain.

Since a local LAN should use reserved addresses (e.g., 10.100.100.0/24),
they need not be registered with ICANN.
Rather, one uses a router to map them (NAT) to the single real IP
supplied by your ISP.

Your LAN server must be on for the DNS server to be active.

Even more relevant, is that most modern DD-WRT routers have static
mapping tables that are effectively a name server for the router's
segment. In this table, one can map a MAC address to a host name
(hostname -s) and an IP.

Before inexpensive routers would do name resolution and assignment of IP
Via DHCP, I maintained my own DNS and NIS server. I have happily
relegated this task to my LAN's router.


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Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/

iF4EAREIAAYFAlUeryYACgkQpY/BHpBmP2r/ygD9GCzCl0nqr9fnAFcQ2QzxAExj
NQXX6z7I649jUVeQgVUA/RnDpoWWDUyAgEIqYRzta9NGTxmzkzjdpJfJg6QArtqk
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[Dng] [OT]I have been liberated!

[Go Linux]

I just unsubscribed from debian-user!  It was time to say good-bye and move on 
. . .
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Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?

[Anto]

On 03/04/15 00:36, Franco Lanza wrote:

Personally on debian i was using from date

APT:Install-Recommends "0";
APT:Install-Suggests "0";

in all my install apt.conf.

I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required
but just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded
envs, but also on my desktop.

What do you think if we make this the default in devuan?


Hello Franco,

I have been using this exact same setting for years in apt.conf.d folder 
of my servers and desktops. So I really support this idea. It is very 
safe and good setting especially for servers, in my opinion.


However, on my desktops sometime I have to be more careful to check the 
"Suggested" and "Recommended" packages when installing something as I 
had some issues because of that setting. I don't remember exactly which 
packages experience the issues, but the most recent issue that I had was 
on parole or possibly on xfce4-mixer where I could not hear mp3 music on 
my USB headset, only on my PC speaker. It was fixed after I installed 
audacious with all its "Suggested" and "Recommended" packages. I didn't 
try further to find out which packages are actually required by parole 
as I only wanted to hear music that night :)


Cheers,

Anto

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Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?

[Anto]

On 03/04/15 01:53, hellekin wrote:

Oh, did I just announce the Devuan forum?


You did! And I just registered myself there.

The login form seems to support the synchronisation with Gitlab account, 
which I also already registered a few months back. But I got nginx 404 
error when I clicked on "with Gitlab".


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Re: [Dng] Another reason of why I am considering Devuan

[Jim Jackson]

> > Where i come from ISP's dynamic IP lease times are *very* long, you
> > need to reboot the home router to get a new IP and even then you may
> > get the same IP. It's not that dynamic, at all. Add that with data
> > your browser provides, your *.google.com in|direct usage, etc... it's
> > easy to correlate and monetize.
> 
> Don't assume even that every home uses has a temporary IP number.
> Mine is permanant.
> 

Interstingly, all the discussion here has assumed IPv4. Using IPv6 each 
machine can become visible, although use of RFC4921 privacy extensions 
would make it more like IPv4 with temp. IP address. And yes google provide
a free public IPv6 DNS service.
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Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?

[Go Linux]

On Fri, 4/3/15, Anto  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" 
dependency?
 To: dng@lists.dyne.org
 Date: Friday, April 3, 2015, 11:28 AM

On 03/04/15 01:53, hellekin wrote:
> Oh, did I just announce the Devuan forum?

You did! And I just registered myself there.

The login form seems to support the synchronisation with Gitlab account,
which I also already registered a few months back. But I got nginx 404
error when I clicked on "with Gitlab".



Yes, hellekin put in a monumental effort to get the forum up and running.  
Kudos to him for his contribution!  Unfortunately, the icon rendering is locked 
in to the font. I posted about this over at Mozillazine - 
http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2925899  patrickjdempsey's 
statement sums up the problem nicely:

"At this time there is no way to force websites to use a specific font and also 
have these kinds of icons appear. I've personally been attempting to find a way 
to make a CSS hack for that and it appears that the way that web fonts have 
been implemented is so incredibly stupid and shortsighted that it's not 
possible to work around. I'm not even sure who to blame for the stupidity of 
the implementation... it's just bad all around."

Ironic that a distribution which is based on the user's freedom to choose, 
would utilize a font that denies a user the option to chose their preferred 
font on the web.  I'm not happy about this and It will probably keep me from 
participating in the forum . . .

golinux


 
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Re: [Dng] Another reason of why I am considering Devuan

[Nate Bargmann]

In my case I prefer OpenWRT which uses dnsmasq to handle the task of LAN
IP assignments and name resolution.

- Nate

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us
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Re: [Dng] Another reason of why I am considering Devuan

[marc]

> If I recall correctly, so far *every* Linux I've used uses an external 
> DNS by default instead of installing its own recursor.
> 
> I figure there must be a reason, but I don't know what it is.

So a cache becomes more efficient if several machines use it -
especially given the branching/hierarchical structure of DNS.
But that was in the good old days - thesedays with intrusive
monitoring, it might be worthwhile to run a local DNS cache
for the privacy benefit and take the hit of a bit more back
and forth - modern client machines have enough resources to
run it

I believe some distributions already use things like dnsmasq
to do simpler caching, and I remember that a while ago
libc offered a caching daemon (nscd ? nsdc ?) for anything 
in nsswitch.conf although I think the API there didn't allow for 
some of the subtleties that DNS offers

Actually it might even even be worth investigating alternate
NS implementations - maybe somebody knows of a proof-of-work 
libnss_* library ? Something like that might decentralise 
things even more ...

I suppose the latter are pie in the sky ideas - getting a
useful release out is more important, but maybe work for 
later...

regards

marc
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Re: [Dng] Another reason of why I am considering Devuan

[Joerg Reisenweber]

On Fri 03 April 2015 22:55:58 marc wrote:
> I believe some distributions already use things like dnsmasq
> to do simpler caching

Maemo (N900) using dnsmasq 
and even my more ancient wrt54g 2nd level router with "Firmware: DD-WRT v24-
sp2 (07/22/09) mini"  offers to run dnsmasq ;-)

Two nice examples where I don't want some systemd-resolvd to sneak in a 
8.8.8.8 when I mess up some config. 127.0.0.1 would be the only bearable 
fallback default

 IroN900:~# cat /etc/resolv.conf 
 nameserver 127.0.0.1
 IroN900:~# ll /etc/resolv.conf
 -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 21 2009-09-17 10:48 /etc/resolv.conf


cheers
/j

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Re: [Dng] Another reason of why I am considering Devuan

[Wim]

Hi Marc,


P2P dns springs to mind. But it seems to have no recent development...

https://github.com/Mononofu/P2P-DNS
http://sourceforge.net/projects/p2pdns/
http://sourceforge.net/projects/qtdnsp2p/
http://qtdnsp2p.sourceforge.net/

You could also have a look at MaidSafe, for P2P cloud storage and currency.
http://maidsafe.net/
https://forum.safenetwork.io/
It's not dns per sé, but it has a lot of interesting stuff. And a small
open and dedicated community. Development by a well funded Scottish company.

Also, NameCoin, CryptoCoin and other virtual currencies seem to have P2P
dns buitl-in:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_DNS_root#NameCoin_P2P_DNS

Let's also not forget that names.space is still suing ICANN:
https://rally.org/namespace.



Cheers,


Wim



2015-04-03 22:55 GMT+02:00 marc :

> > If I recall correctly, so far *every* Linux I've used uses an external
> > DNS by default instead of installing its own recursor.
> >
> > I figure there must be a reason, but I don't know what it is.
>
> So a cache becomes more efficient if several machines use it -
> especially given the branching/hierarchical structure of DNS.
> But that was in the good old days - thesedays with intrusive
> monitoring, it might be worthwhile to run a local DNS cache
> for the privacy benefit and take the hit of a bit more back
> and forth - modern client machines have enough resources to
> run it
>
> I believe some distributions already use things like dnsmasq
> to do simpler caching, and I remember that a while ago
> libc offered a caching daemon (nscd ? nsdc ?) for anything
> in nsswitch.conf although I think the API there didn't allow for
> some of the subtleties that DNS offers
>
> Actually it might even even be worth investigating alternate
> NS implementations - maybe somebody knows of a proof-of-work
> libnss_* library ? Something like that might decentralise
> things even more ...
>
> I suppose the latter are pie in the sky ideas - getting a
> useful release out is more important, but maybe work for
> later...
>
> regards
>
> marc
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[Dng] Call for factoids on the Debian fork

[hellekin]

Hello dears,

one of the current tasks of the Devuan Editors is to gather facts about
the Debian fork in order to write a compelling story to be told on
debianfork.org.

This domain will hopefully be the place to deflect and defuse any troll
about the Debian fork and systemd, in order to focus devuan.org on the
actual distro work.

Any help is welcome to gather original emails, timelines, witness
accounts, key people and facts.  The objective, I repeat, is to gather
facts, not gossip, and not opinions or feelings about systemd.

What I want to do is reply to the question: "why did Devuan fork
Debian?" in the most sensible way possible.  (Incidentally, "how" it
happened may also be relevant ;o)

If you'd like to get involved in the writing process, please idle on
#devuan-www on Freenode IRC.  Thank you for your attention and for your
help.

==
hk

-- 
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(_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/
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Re: [Dng] Another reason of why I am considering Devuan

[T.J. Duchene]

> -Original Message-
> From: Martin Steigerwald [mailto:mar...@lichtvoll.de]
> Sent: Friday, April 3, 2015 3:36 AM
> To: dng@lists.dyne.org
> Subject: Re: [Dng] Another reason of why I am considering Devuan
> 
> Please do not Cc me personally on your reply.
[T.J. ] Apologies.  "Reply to all" defaults.
> 
 
> Having a default DNS thus means that the data is *centralized*.
[T.J. ] In caching DNS, sure.  If it bothers you, use a list and randomize.
It would be much simpler to setup your own server.
> 
> If everyone uses their own providers DNS, it is spread around.
> 
[T.J. ] Not really. A lot of providers do not run actual nameservers, just
caching ones - but that is not material to the discussion. 

> I think this makes a huge difference. I think Google is dangerous, cause
they
> are too big. They collect too much data.
> 
Perhaps.  But if that is a concern, then best not to use anything Google,
and not visit any page that uses Google Adsense.  Best thing to do would be
to setup your own nameserver and black-hole any traffic to or from Google's
subnets in your router.  Otherwise, you will be aggregating data whether you
like it or not.

> Just cause someone doesn´t like google DNS as a default doesn´t mean he or
> she is paranoid. So please stay away from personal attacks.

[T.J. ] All I said what that "worrying about providers logging DNS traffic
is a fairly pointless time waster." That was just a frank observation, not a
personal attack.   I didn't intend an "attack" on Nuno or anyone else,
Martin.  From a traffic standpoint, I would be far more concerned with
someone logging your HTTP packets rather than DNS.  HTTP connections are a
bit more direct, and usually encrypted.  Usually your connection is only
distributed across a limited number of servers hosting a particular website.
By comparison, DNS is far, far more distributed and not encrypted.  Your DNS
calls might require requests all the way from your ISP all the way across
Internet to an authorative nameserver, with a few hopes in-between.  There
is not much you can do about it: that is the way the system works.

Have a great night!


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