Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
Le 02/03/2015 23:43, T.J. Duchene a écrit : We just see things differently. My first question would be: is there are a justified reason NOT to use C? There is a very good reason, and I heard it was given by Kernighan and Ritchie: "we assume the programmer knows what (s)he is doing". And there is a second reason: C is very tied to the hardware; it is lacking abstractions. The sentence can be compared to Ada's design rationale: "we assume the programmer is a human being" (meaning (s)he persistently makes mistakes). Maybe K&R never wrote that sentence, but I like it because it fits very well with the nature of the C language. unsigned u = -2; /* example */ I am very admirative of how the Linux kernel is efficient and safe, but everybody knows that this is achieved by hard work of some of the best C programmers in the world. This is THE exception. I had experiences of big programs in C and my experience is that debugging is long (and probably never ended) and evolution is a nightmare. For me, the question is rather why choose a given language out of all available languages? And the reason is generally because the programmer feels more comfortable with one. It can be discussed wether the choice makes sense, but I don't see even why C should always be considered. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
Le 03/03/2015 01:08, T.J. Duchene a écrit : It's interesting that you'd mention Java here. I don't much like the Java language or the Java programming culture, but Java bytecode has the interesting property that, with a little plumbing, one can send executable code over the network and have it run on a remote machine. This actually winds up being useful for large-scale data crunching, where you want to move the code to the data rather than the data to the code wherever possible. I wouldn't know how to build a system that does this in C (for instance) that isn't brittle. There is no magic to it. Java's core is usually written in C after all. Realistically, the reason Java can do that is that Java bytecode is processor generic. You could theoretically do that with C as long as the processors are the same. Alas no! There's the F. shared libraries. It works only if you link statically, which is discouraged by the glibc just because Ulrich Drepper does not like it. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] VNC starts to be subsumed by systemd
http://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=15/03/02/1037248
" VLC Media Player Gains Support For Logging To Systemd's Journal"
Honestly, I am starting to suspect that userland will need to be entirely
forked to stay away from systemd. It seems every developer these days is
infected with a mind virus: from the phoning home that todays linux software
does (be it the browsers or things like VNC) to the acceptance and then
reliance on systemd, to the cavilear attitude towards security of any kind,
today's developers are not the trustworthy people of the past. Linux is now
where the microsoft world was in the 90s, with the same type of persons. ("if
you're not doing anything wrong" Yes, we may be doing things that you say are
wrong, guess what we live in different cultures and maybe are mortal enemies)
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Re: [Dng] V^DNLC starts to be subsumed by systemd
On Tue, 2015-03-03 at 18:11 +0100, Tom Collins wrote:
> http://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=15/03/02/1037248
> " VLC Media Player Gains Support For Logging To Systemd's Journal"
>
> Honestly, I am starting to suspect that userland will need to be
> entirely forked to stay away from systemd. It seems every developer
> these days is infected with a mind virus: from the phoning home that
> todays linux software does (be it the browsers or things like V^DNLC) to
> the acceptance and then reliance on systemd, to the cavilear attitude
> towards security of any kind, today's developers are not the
> trustworthy people of the past. Linux is now where the microsoft world
> was in the 90s, with the same type of persons. ("if you're not doing
> anything wrong" Yes, we may be doing things that you say are wrong,
> guess what we live in different cultures and maybe are mortal enemies)
I assume you mean VLC in your mail at all entries, not VNC, that's
something different :)
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Re: [Dng] V^DNLC starts to be subsumed by systemd
Yes, that is what I mean (Video Lan Client)
It also phones home these days by default:
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/downloading-and-installing-vlc-media-player-in-win.pageCd-storyboard,pageNum-11.html#slideshow
The linux we knew is done unless everything is forked. The new generation of developers are not trustworthy. They feel if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear. Bascially what that means is that their world view is correct and anyone who is against their worldview _should_ be found out and be subject to the law (which they support). They are totalitarians and feel that the world is theirs and it is only right that people follow their worldview and people that do not be punished and pushed out of the world.
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 at 5:25 PM
From: "Svante Signell"
To: dng@lists.dyne.org
Subject: Re: [Dng] V^DNLC starts to be subsumed by systemd
On Tue, 2015-03-03 at 18:11 +0100, Tom Collins wrote:
> http://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=15/03/02/1037248
> " VLC Media Player Gains Support For Logging To Systemd's Journal"
>
> Honestly, I am starting to suspect that userland will need to be
> entirely forked to stay away from systemd. It seems every developer
> these days is infected with a mind virus: from the phoning home that
> todays linux software does (be it the browsers or things like V^DNLC) to
> the acceptance and then reliance on systemd, to the cavilear attitude
> towards security of any kind, today's developers are not the
> trustworthy people of the past. Linux is now where the microsoft world
> was in the 90s, with the same type of persons. ("if you're not doing
> anything wrong" Yes, we may be doing things that you say are wrong,
> guess what we live in different cultures and maybe are mortal enemies)
I assume you mean VLC in your mail at all entries, not VNC, that's
something different :)
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Re: [Dng] V^DNLC starts to be subsumed by systemd
> They feel if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear.
what gives you that idea? they dont collect usage stats or anything,
they just give you the /option/ to have the player look up missing
information about what is playing or check if there is a new release.
what is so sinister about that?
you sound like a lot like a troll.
--Gravis
On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 12:51 PM, Tom Collins wrote:
> Yes, that is what I mean (Video Lan Client)
> It also phones home these days by default:
> http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/downloading-and-installing-vlc-media-player-in-win.pageCd-storyboard,pageNum-11.html#slideshow
>
> The linux we knew is done unless everything is forked. The new generation of
> developers are not trustworthy. They feel if you have nothing to hide you
> have nothing to fear. Bascially what that means is that their world view is
> correct and anyone who is against their worldview _should_ be found out and
> be subject to the law (which they support). They are totalitarians and feel
> that the world is theirs and it is only right that people follow their
> worldview and people that do not be punished and pushed out of the world.
>
>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 at 5:25 PM
> From: "Svante Signell"
> To: dng@lists.dyne.org
> Subject: Re: [Dng] V^DNLC starts to be subsumed by systemd
> On Tue, 2015-03-03 at 18:11 +0100, Tom Collins wrote:
>> http://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=15/03/02/1037248
>> " VLC Media Player Gains Support For Logging To Systemd's Journal"
>>
>> Honestly, I am starting to suspect that userland will need to be
>> entirely forked to stay away from systemd. It seems every developer
>> these days is infected with a mind virus: from the phoning home that
>> todays linux software does (be it the browsers or things like V^DNLC) to
>> the acceptance and then reliance on systemd, to the cavilear attitude
>> towards security of any kind, today's developers are not the
>> trustworthy people of the past. Linux is now where the microsoft world
>> was in the 90s, with the same type of persons. ("if you're not doing
>> anything wrong" Yes, we may be doing things that you say are wrong,
>> guess what we live in different cultures and maybe are mortal enemies)
>
> I assume you mean VLC in your mail at all entries, not VNC, that's
> something different :)
>
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Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News XIV - Where no toy has gone before
Minor correction: I should point out that Linus was mad at Kay Sievers for breaking udev, and then blaming the kernel's firmware loader. The breakage didn't have anything to do with kdbus, as far as I know (which is what I was trying to clarify in the first place--Linus and Kay weren't fighting about anything related to kdbus or systemd integration). -Jude On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 2:19 AM, hellekin wrote: > # Devuan Weekly News Issue XIV > > __Volume 002, Week 9, Devuan Week 14__ > > Released 03/03/12015 [HE](why-he) > > > https://git.devuan.org/Envite/devuan-weekly-news/wikis/past-issues/volume-02/issue-014 > > ## Editorial > > It's hard to believe it's winter when you have to mop the sweat out of > your keyboard, but the intensity of this week's conversations, and > @golinux's [penguins][0] made thinking about cold easier. Cold reigns > in deep space as well and Devuan users will appreciate the identity > moving away from toyland: although Debian Jessie refers to an > adventurous toy cowgirl with an attitude, Devuan's Jessie refers to a > place no toy has ever gone before. Exit the naughty `Sid` brat, > welcome `Ceres`, largest object in the asteroid belt, and the first > minor planet discovered in the 19th Century. That's right, [Devuan > release codenames][1] will be named after minor planets of our solar > system. As far as visual identity goes, and although the logo still > consumes a significant bit of attention, it won't be revealed before > the code: part of the distro's publishing policy is to deliver working > code before a shiny image. Welcome to Issue XIV of the DWN, cooked > _al dente_ by your interim editor, @hellekin, with the invaluable help > of @golinux and @joerg_rw. > > ## Last Week in Devuan > > ### [Debian Problems with Jessie][2] > > T.J.Duchene advises not to bring "Debian mud" to the list: "Devuan > does not need to justify its own existence." Here comes the largest > thread this week: a swashbuckling introspective and speculative bubble > visiting what's wrong with collective creation of software. (It all > started with _Simple Backgrounds_, go figure.) > > ### [Three Important UI Features][3] > > Last week Jonathan Wilkes introduced the idea of improving the > features for the default devuan desktop. Wolfgang Pirker proposes two > solutions for the "find apps as you type" #2 feature. Feature #3 > "menu on the Super key" can be addressed with `dmenu`. A consensual > voice raises in favor of Xfce as the default desktop environment (DE), > which comes with its own implementation equivalent to what dmenu > provides. > > In passing, for your hacker jeopardy, here's a funky compiler flag in > `Enlightenment` that will probably break the layout of many screen > applications displaying this: > > `--enable-i-really-know-what-i-am-doing-and-that-this-will-probably-break-things-and-i-will-fix-them-myself-and-send-patches-aba`. > > ### [Xfce Desktop Environment in Devuan][4] > > As `Xfce 4.12` was released this week on the 28th of February, it was > also chosen to become the default DE in Devuan, which makes it the > first _non-systemd_ difference between cowgirl Jessie and planet > Jessie. David Harrison talked with the Xfce team, and @jaromil > confirms existing coordination and good terms between Devuan and Xfce. > > ### [Logind Alternative][5] > > Oz Tiram introduces the `ConsoleKit2` fork that does not depend on > `systemd-logind`. Svante Signell offers to package it for Devuan. > Dima Krasner reminds that "ConsoleKit2 was already packaged by Max, > but we don't need it in the Jessie cycle because the logind dependency > was dropped from all packages." > > ### [Simple Backgrounds][6] > > Hendrik Boom is concerned not to delay the first release for designing > the project's visual identity (and he's right). As @jaromil puts it: > "Devuan is sugar-free and doesn't makes your computer fat :^)" See the > > > editorial. > > ### More of Devuan Logo > > Discussions abound regarding the potential Devuan logo. Linuxito > announces a [graphical version of the survey][7], warning that it's > informative, and Anto notes that a logo without matching text "would > look strange". In [another thread][8], Hendrik Boom suggests using > the Milky Way as the basis for the logo (that was before the release > code names were announced, but it was in the air). Tzu-Pei Chen shows > that a single-arm spiral galaxy exists, which Hendrik qualifies as > "debian galaxy", leaving the interpretation of the comment's depth to > the astute reader. Neo Futur engages in the [philosophy of KISS][9]. > > ### The Valentine <3 Pre-Release Support > > More people come with feedback over the Valentine Pre-Release ISO. > Please [report any issue][10] with this release so the team can ensure > > > these are gone in the next batch. John Morris reports [quite a few > issues][11], some of them coming from Debian Installer itself. His > verdict: "most problems were fixable and process 1 is init > so Winning!
Re: [Dng] V^DNLC starts to be subsumed by systemd
Also, VLC 2.2.0 (latest) has been compiled by Alien Bob for Slackware, without
systemd.
http://alien.slackbook.org/blog/coordinated-release-of-vlc-2-2-0/
-Original Message-
From: "Gravis" [rin...@adaptivetime.com]
Date: 03/03/2015 01:56 PM
To: "Tom Collins"
CC: "dng@lists.dyne.org"
Subject: Re: [Dng] V^DNLC starts to be subsumed by systemd
> They feel if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear.
what gives you that idea? they dont collect usage stats or anything,
they just give you the /option/ to have the player look up missing
information about what is playing or check if there is a new release.
what is so sinister about that?
you sound like a lot like a troll.
--Gravis
On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 12:51 PM, Tom Collins wrote:
> Yes, that is what I mean (Video Lan Client)
> It also phones home these days by default:
> http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/downloading-and-installing-vlc-media-player-in-win.pageCd-storyboard,pageNum-11.html#slideshow
>
> The linux we knew is done unless everything is forked. The new generation of
> developers are not trustworthy. They feel if you have nothing to hide you
> have nothing to fear. Bascially what that means is that their world view is
> correct and anyone who is against their worldview _should_ be found out and
> be subject to the law (which they support). They are totalitarians and feel
> that the world is theirs and it is only right that people follow their
> worldview and people that do not be punished and pushed out of the world.
>
>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 at 5:25 PM
> From: "Svante Signell"
> To: dng@lists.dyne.org
> Subject: Re: [Dng] V^DNLC starts to be subsumed by systemd
> On Tue, 2015-03-03 at 18:11 +0100, Tom Collins wrote:
>> http://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=15/03/02/1037248
>> " VLC Media Player Gains Support For Logging To Systemd's Journal"
>>
>> Honestly, I am starting to suspect that userland will need to be
>> entirely forked to stay away from systemd. It seems every developer
>> these days is infected with a mind virus: from the phoning home that
>> todays linux software does (be it the browsers or things like V^DNLC) to
>> the acceptance and then reliance on systemd, to the cavilear attitude
>> towards security of any kind, today's developers are not the
>> trustworthy people of the past. Linux is now where the microsoft world
>> was in the 90s, with the same type of persons. ("if you're not doing
>> anything wrong" Yes, we may be doing things that you say are wrong,
>> guess what we live in different cultures and maybe are mortal enemies)
>
> I assume you mean VLC in your mail at all entries, not VNC, that's
> something different :)
>
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Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News XIV - Where no toy has gone before
Question: Is there an rss feed with which to follow the "Devuan Weekly News" ? For those of us who rely on newsbeuter... -grant ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] VNC starts to be subsumed by systemd
hi Tom, On Tue, 03 Mar 2015, Tom Collins wrote: > http://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=15/03/02/1037248 > " VLC Media Player Gains Support For Logging To Systemd's Journal" not a problem I'd say. There are plenty of userland applications out there that have support for systemd and we can be just fine with that, as long as it is not mandatory. FWIW VLC has also support for OSX stuff, for Win32 stuff and all sorts of platforms where it is ported. I see nothing bad in developers choosing to support systemd if they want. But I would never advise any developer to rely solely on systemd and less than ever to let his/her own software be entangled in such a dependency nightmare without any way out, any --without-systemd switch ciao signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News XIV - Where no toy has gone before
hi Sisyphus, On Wed, 04 Mar 2015, sisyphus wrote: > Question: Is there an rss feed with which to follow the "Devuan > Weekly News" ? For those of us who rely on newsbeuter... yes http://lists.devuan.org/dwn/atom.xml just being setted up these days, unfortunately due to some adjustements it got a duplicate on the last issue, but I guess we can ignore that for the moment, also because the issue reads really good :^) ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News XI
В Fri, 27 Feb 2015 18:05:49 -0300 hellekin пишет: > impressive", or "very effective". As a non-native English speaker as > well, it didn't occur to me that it was impolite to do so, and > apparently the people who worked on this issue were not shocked > either. As was mentioned before, anyone is welcome to participate in > the editing process of the DWN, so I recommend that you join us on > Monday so that such offense does not happen again. Thank you. How i can join 'on monday'? Sthu. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News XI
On Tue, 3/3/15, Ста Деюс wrote: Subject: Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News XI To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2015, 3:07 PM В Fri, 27 Feb 2015 18:05:49 -0300 hellekin пишет: >> impressive", or "very effective". As a non-native English speaker as >> well, it didn't occur to me that it was impolite to do so, and >> apparently the people who worked on this issue were not shocked >> either. As was mentioned before, anyone is welcome to participate in >> the editing process of the DWN, so I recommend that you join us on >> Monday so that such offense does not happen again. >Thank you. How i can join 'on monday'? >Sthu. Here you go: https://git.devuan.org/Envite/devuan-weekly-news/wikis/upcoming-issue golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges
В Fri, 27 Feb 2015 17:30:22 -0300 hellekin пишет: > > Awesome! As it is the planet-wide project, why make it necessary to > > translate even logo into languages? - Let it be just graphical > > stuff. > *** Why is everybody looking for the One Ring to Rule Them All? Can't > we have unity through diversity? Are we all subject of Mordor's > torpor and subjugation? > I'd like to see logos I can't read: in Cyrillic, in Mandarin, in > Arabic, ... If "if" makes a great logo for English-speaking people, > what makes a great logo for Indians? Embrace cultural differences > for freedom sake! Do not know what's Mordor is, but i think it will be hard to translate logo to every language. For example, when redesigned, or some other graphical work will be done. Also it is possible, that having text logo wil never be translated into all the languages. Again, it is just mine opinion. :o) Sthu. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News XI
В Fri, 27 Feb 2015 16:08:40 -0500 Gravis пишет: > this coming from the person that has the initials for "shut the hell > up" as their signature. WOW! 8oO Yet, Sthu. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges
В Fri, 27 Feb 2015 21:25:59 -1000 Joel Roth пишет: > It could be the One Ring, or it could be The Matrix. > I think penguins walking out of jail gives a similar idea, > while using a more universal symbol. Perhaps I should try my hand > at photo-shopping, err.. gimping it. I suggest to list our wishes on logo: what it should reflect. Sthu. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges
On Wed, Mar 04, 2015 at 04:22:55AM +0700, ?? wrote: > ?? Fri, 27 Feb 2015 17:30:22 -0300 > hellekin ??: > > > > Awesome! As it is the planet-wide project, why make it necessary to > > > translate even logo into languages? - Let it be just graphical > > > stuff. > > > *** Why is everybody looking for the One Ring to Rule Them All? Can't > > we have unity through diversity? Are we all subject of Mordor's > > torpor and subjugation? > > Do not know what's Mordor is, but i think it will be hard to translate (Context for those who haven't read Tolkien; if you have, feel free to ignore.) In "The Lord of the Rings" (J.R.R. Tolkien), Mordor was the realm of Sauron, the lord of all the forces of evil. Sauron created a ring to enslave all the world, on which was engraved this verse/enchantment (actually a portion of a larger verse): One Ring to rule them all, one Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them. If I understand correctly, the point of the allusion is that the quest for *one and only one* solution is not desireable. Isaac Dunham ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
On Tue, 3 Mar 2015 07:25:23 + KatolaZ wrote: > Well, if you found that *for your particular tasks* C can replace Perl > or Python, I believe you. But it's just not true that this should be > the case for everybody else, in every possible use case. > What I have found is that many of the arguments surrounding the particular choice of "this language is better for task A, while this one is better for task B" is very subjective and often entirely false. All computer languages are constrained to the physical nature of the processor, so the benefits of one over another are usually really nothing more than syntactic sugar. Perl or Python in the core language might be "better" for breaking down strings, but give C an identically functioned library and it will do just as well. Both languages are actually written in C and the thus constrained by C's internals, which are actually nothing more than the processor architecture. I honestly wouldn't give a tinker's dam what people want to use, if it were not for the fact that many of the popular languages use some really annoying name mangling techniques, produce less than optimal object code, and waste energy by constantly reconverting high level code back into object code every time that it executed. > But you can't deny that other languages > exist, and can be useful (even *more* useful than C for certain > tasks), Actually, that is precisely the mode of thinking that I am challenging. I will grant you that given the fact that C has seen a lack of use over Perl or Python, and thus its users find one easier, but I would also argue that an experienced C programmer with the vast arsenal of C libraries that exist, could easily turn that argument on its head, especially with RAD tools. Perl or Python's syntactic abilities are in reality, nothing more than blocks of C code, compiled into their interpreter cores. As a counter-argument, I would offer that you can perform any task in C, (with the extremely occasional asm block) that the processor is physically capable of, but the reverse cannot be said of other languages. > > Unfortunately, the world is not just black or white, when it comes to > languages. And I am among those who believe that the world *IS* and > *SHOULD BE* absolutely black or white, in many other respects... :D THAT is very true, and regardless of what we decide here, the world will go on its merry way. These languages might be "easier to use" by those allergic to to lower level ones, but the overhead and inefficiency wastes battery power. Ultimately, the time the programmers might save are spent by the potential thousand users who have wait 5 minutes for the app to run rather than 2 1/2. I think the end goal of my "rage" against certain programming languages would be to shame them into creating better compilers, optimizers and using the traditional interpreter only for debugging. > And I can mantion dozens of counterexamples in which Perl or Python > would solve the task more easily than C. Just to give you an idea, I > have been doing quite a bit of XML parsing, mainly to convert data > sets of all sorts in a reasonable (ASCII) format. Well, I have done it > both in C and Python, so I think I can make a fair comparison between > the two *for this particular task* and for *my specific needs*. My sympathies. XML is like the fleas on a mangy dog. It's hard to get rid of and everywhere you turn, it reappears. Well my response to that would be that it is easier for "you" to use Python for this task, but it would NOT be easier for someone else to do so. The whole "ease argument" is entirely subjective. > Usually the C implementation of a non-trivial XML parser might require > a couple of days to be finished and be able to digest the whole schema > (you have to construct the data structure piece by piece, and to pass > around a lot of garbage, and to be sure that you don't have leaks > anywhere, and to catch and handle errors by hand...). Conversely, the > Python implementation is usually ready in less than two hours, at > most, and gives you the same set of functionalities at the cost of a > slightly longer processing time (in the range of tens of seconds, or > minutes, in the worst case). And if I have to use that code only once > (as it is *very often* the case with 98% of the code), then the Python > way is overall far better, faster, easier and convenient than any > other thing you can conceive. > > Not if you use a library already written for the task. As I said, i find the argument somewhat subjective and based on your personal preference. On the other hand, I can say factually that Python's abilities are nothing more than C code behind the scenes. The day that Python is actually written in Python rather than C, then I will happily accept that argument. Cheers! t.j. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/
Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges
On 03/03/15 18:38, Isaac Dunham wrote: > > If I understand correctly, the point of the allusion is that the quest > for *one and only one* solution is not desireable. > *** Indeed, Isaac, that was my point. It's not just for the IF badges though, but a general principle: we tend to forget about diversity, especially as globalization has been soaring and the "Western" monoculture has been taken as the unique valid point of view, the "best of the best", etc. Unity, yes, through diversity! == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
On Tue, 03 Mar 2015 12:46:17 +0100 Didier Kryn wrote: > > Le 02/03/2015 23:43, T.J. Duchene a écrit : > > We just see things differently. My first question would be: is > > there are a justified reason NOT to use C? > > There is a very good reason, and I heard it was given by > Kernighan and Ritchie: "we assume the programmer knows what (s)he is > doing". And there is a second reason: C is very tied to the hardware; > it is lacking abstractions. > Fair enough. If you need that level of abstraction to get the job done, so be it. It's at least a better reason that most of the others that I have heard. I would comment that levels of abstraction can be achieved in any language, and that C is just as good any other at doing so. You use abstracted libraries everyday. Although I would have to disagree that C is not tied to the hardware. That is the whole point of C. That is why C is used over assembly and why C is considered a universal language. It's usually the first one ported to any processor. Saying it is hardware dependent doesn't make sense when C, and the Linux kernel written in C are used on so many different forms of hardware. > I had > experiences of big programs in C and my experience is that debugging > is long (and probably never ended) and evolution is a nightmare. That can be true, but it is also true of any language, or of project of substantial size: say 2,000,000+ lines of code. It really depends on how well it was designed and documented. It can be discussed > wether the choice makes sense, but I don't see even why C should > always be considered. > > Efficiency and guaranteed portability, Diedler. You can't say the same of Python, Perl, etc - because in order to use them, you have to compile them from C first. Cheers! t.j. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] VNC starts to be subsumed by systemd
On Tue, 3 Mar 2015 18:11:56 +0100 "Tom Collins" wrote: > http://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=15/03/02/1037248 > " VLC Media Player Gains Support For Logging To Systemd's Journal" > > Honestly, I am starting to suspect that userland will need to be > entirely forked to stay away from systemd. It seems every developer > these days is infected with a mind virus: from the phoning home that > todays linux software does (be it the browsers or things like VNC) No offense,but frankly, I think that's a bit of a "knee jerk" reaction. Just because some piece of software has support for systemd does not mean that you have to use it, any more than support for JACK requires that you therefore MUST use only JACK. So systemd is a PITA, and we can agree on that. On the other hand, unless VLC is going to abandon every other platform, including Windows, then optional systemd logs are nothing to worry about. Just compile VLC without systemd. t.j. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
On Tue, Mar 03, 2015 at 07:25:23AM +, KatolaZ wrote: > On Mon, Mar 02, 2015 at 04:35:24PM -0600, T.J. Duchene wrote: > > When you code in Perl, you are using subroutines and libraries that > > were incorporated into Perl core.The fact you are calling an > > entire subroutine when you "split" strings in Perl is no different > > than having a C string library. You call the library to do the > > work. You don't care how it does it, only that you get the results. > > C gets a bad reputation because a percentage of programmers never > > learned how to prevent buffer overflows or leaks is all. That is > > certainly not C's fault. > > > > And I can mantion dozens of counterexamples in which Perl or Python > would solve the task more easily than C. Just to give you an idea, I > have been doing quite a bit of XML parsing, mainly to convert data > sets of all sorts in a reasonable (ASCII) format. Well, I have done it > both in C and Python, so I think I can make a fair comparison between > the two *for this particular task* and for *my specific needs*. > > Usually the C implementation of a non-trivial XML parser might require > a couple of days to be finished and be able to digest the whole schema > (you have to construct the data structure piece by piece, and to pass > around a lot of garbage, and to be sure that you don't have leaks > anywhere, and to catch and handle errors by hand...). Conversely, the > Python implementation is usually ready in less than two hours, Are you using expat for the C implementation, like you are for Python behind the scenes? python-stdlib requires expat, BDB 5.3, bz2, ncurses, readline, sqlite, and openssl, along with FFI, terminfo, and mime-support. However, I recognize you probably won't get C done in less than 2 hours like you do with Python. I will say that it sometimes seems like the reason leaks are a problem in C specifically is that leaks aren't considered a problem in other languages. Sure, gc-based languages eventually collect the garbage. But they seem to take a long time to do it. And they encourage a sloppy approach where acquiring a resource is not habitually matched with releasing it. And exceptions can at times be more obscure and verbose than checking return values: something three imports deep could throw an exception you never thought about, and it may propagate. Now, I've used Python a little bit, and I've used C a little bit. I won't say that Python/$scripting_language "should not be used, period". But there are a lot of the features that come at costs that sometimes seem to be ignored. Thanks, Isaac Dunham ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News XIV - Where no toy has gone before
Good work, hellekin! On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 7:19 AM, hellekin wrote: > ### [Beware The Red Hat Octopus][25] > > Steven W. Scott warns against Red Hat's way, comparing systemd with > Microsoft's failed attempt to supplant Sun's Java. (Is there a Godwin > point for mentioning M$?) He offers to chainsaw the octopus' > tentacles. It'll get even more interesting when Red Hat and Oracle merge. Oh, it'll happen... Cheers, Nuno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 10:42 PM, T.J. Duchene wrote: > On Tue, 3 Mar 2015 07:25:23 + > KatolaZ wrote: > > All computer languages are constrained to the physical nature of the > processor, so the benefits of one over another are usually really > nothing more than syntactic sugar. So what you're saying is that all languages are syntactic sugar over assembly? :) > As a counter-argument, I would offer that you can perform any task in C, > (with the extremely occasional asm block) that the processor is > physically capable of, but the reverse cannot be said of other > languages. Fornicate yeah! > These languages might be "easier to use" by those allergic to to lower > level ones, but the overhead and inefficiency wastes battery power. > Ultimately, the time the programmers might save are spent by the > potential thousand users who have wait 5 minutes for the app to run > rather than 2 1/2. More and more i see "it'll be more work / take longer to implement / be more complex" as developer excuses to use more "user-friendly" languages like java (and less and less developers learning C in college so they're biased). It should be easy for the end-user, definitely; and if it can be easy for the developer as well, cool. Making something less efficient/fast/scalable/ because it's hard...? My uncalled-for €0.02 Cheers, Nuno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News XIV - Where no toy has gone before
On Tue, Mar 03, 2015 at 04:19:06AM -0300, hellekin wrote: > ## Editorial > > It's hard to believe it's winter when you have to mop the sweat out of > your keyboard, but the intensity of this week's conversations, and > @golinux's [penguins][0] made thinking about cold easier. Cold reigns > in deep space as well and Devuan users will appreciate the identity > moving away from toyland: although Debian Jessie refers to an > adventurous toy cowgirl with an attitude, Devuan's Jessie refers to a > place no toy has ever gone before. Exit the naughty `Sid` brat, > welcome `Ceres`, largest object in the asteroid belt, and the first > minor planet discovered in the 19th Century. That's right, [Devuan > release codenames][1] will be named after minor planets of our solar > system. As far as visual identity goes, and although the logo still > consumes a significant bit of attention, it won't be revealed before > the code: part of the distro's publishing policy is to deliver working > code before a shiny image. Welcome to Issue XIV of the DWN, cooked > _al dente_ by your interim editor, @hellekin, with the invaluable help > of @golinux and @joerg_rw. > Thanks hellekin and all DWN contributors, with this editorial you made my day, i love it :D As we have such naming and as "where no toy has gone before" is so close to a citation, can i suggest/hope that we can dedicate Jessie to Leonard Nimoy? -- Franco (nextime) Lanza Lonate Pozzolo (VA) - Italy SIP://c...@casa.nexlab.it web: http://www.nexlab.net NO TCPA: http://www.no1984.org you can download my public key at: http://danex.nexlab.it/nextime.asc || Key Servers Key ID = D6132D50 Key fingerprint = 66ED 5211 9D59 DA53 1DF7 4189 DFED F580 D613 2D50 --- echo 16i[q]sa[ln0=aln100%Pln100/snlbx]sbA0D212153574F444E49572045535520454D20454B414D204F54204847554F4E452059415020544F4E4E4143205345544147204C4C4942snlbxq | dc --- signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] My pinning list is getting longer :)
Hello Everybody, I feel like being forced to (indirectly) use libsystemd0 on my VPS just now. I pinned my php5 packages to version 5.4.36-0+deb7u1 on wheezy, because php5-fpm version 5.6.5+dfsg-2 on jessie requires libsystemd0. When I did dist-upgrade just now, it wanted to upgrade dpkg, dpkg-dev and libdpkg-perl from version 1.17.23 to 1.17.24. But it also wanted remove php5-fpm. It turned out that the new version of dpkg breaks php5-fpm (<< 5.6.4+dfsg-3). So I just included those 3 packages into my pinning list, to see which other packageswill force me again to use anything related to systemd. I know that this is the risk of including jessie repository in my source.list, as it is quite clear that they have made the decision to support systemd. I guess they will always link any packages into systemd as much as possible, even if there is a possibility to compile the package without dependency to anything related to systemd. Looking at http://php.net/ChangeLog-5.php, they have put the option "--with-fpm-systemd" starting from version 5.5.0. So I assume that I can re-compile the php5 source from jessie repository with the option "--without-fpm-systemd". Did anybody try that before? Or do I have to use the upstream source to be able to use that option? Kind regards, Anto ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
On Tue, Mar 03, 2015 at 05:36:54PM -0600, T.J. Duchene wrote: > On Tue, 03 Mar 2015 12:46:17 +0100 > Didier Kryn wrote: > > > I had > > experiences of big programs in C and my experience is that debugging > > is long (and probably never ended) and evolution is a nightmare. > > That can be true, but it is also true of any language, or of project of > substantial size: say 2,000,000+ lines of code. It really depends on > how well it was designed and documented. I get this from a conference proceedings -- I forget which, but if pressed I can probably get a specific reference within a few days. A firm had an enterprise resource management system (at lease, that's what I think it was called) that contained about 200,000 lines of C code. Yes, that's an order of magnitude smaller thatn your example. They decided that they needed a scripting language to simplify their work. They picked Gambit Scheme for their scripting language, and they found it quite effective. Gambit Scheme is an implementation of Scheme that has a particularly intimate connection with C. It can be interpreted, but it has a compatible compiler that compiles Scheme to C. Interfacing Gambit to C is particularly easy. As time passed, they kept finding new uses for their scripting language. Occasionally they would realize and existing module needed major new functinoality, and it was easier to write the new version in Scheme than to modify the old. Over two years or so, they ended up replacing their C code, piece by piece, with Scheme code. In the end they had a system that was mostly written in Scheme, was more reliable, did more, ran faster, and was only about 3 lines of Scheme. It was really a win for the high-level, garbage-collected language. Now I'll admit that not all problems are like that. But I suspect that many are. > > It can be discussed > > wether the choice makes sense, but I don't see even why C should > > always be considered. > > > > > Efficiency and guaranteed portability, Diedler. You can't say the same > of Python, Perl, etc - because in order to use them, you have to > compile them from C first. Case study above, Scheme was clearly superior to C. Granted, Scheme code did get compiled to C, but what I care about here is the code the human programmers see. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] My pinning list is getting longer :)
from: http://php.net/manual/en/install.fpm.php FPM (FastCGI Process Manager) is an alternative PHP FastCGI implementation with some additional features (mostly) useful for heavy-loaded sites. this actually makes some sense because systemd does do process management. regardless, my guess was that it was enabled because "everybody is using systemd, so why not?" and i expect it will happen even more in the future. --Gravis On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 10:00 PM, Anto wrote: > Hello Everybody, > > I feel like being forced to (indirectly) use libsystemd0 on my VPS just now. > > I pinned my php5 packages to version 5.4.36-0+deb7u1 on wheezy, because > php5-fpm version 5.6.5+dfsg-2 on jessie requires libsystemd0. When I did > dist-upgrade just now, it wanted to upgrade dpkg, dpkg-dev and libdpkg-perl > from version 1.17.23 to 1.17.24. But it also wanted remove php5-fpm. It > turned out that the new version of dpkg breaks php5-fpm (<< 5.6.4+dfsg-3). > So I just included those 3 packages into my pinning list, to see which other > packageswill force me again to use anything related to systemd. > > I know that this is the risk of including jessie repository in my > source.list, as it is quite clear that they have made the decision to > support systemd. I guess they will always link any packages into systemd as > much as possible, even if there is a possibility to compile the package > without dependency to anything related to systemd. > > Looking at http://php.net/ChangeLog-5.php, they have put the option > "--with-fpm-systemd" starting from version 5.5.0. So I assume that I can > re-compile the php5 source from jessie repository with the option > "--without-fpm-systemd". Did anybody try that before? Or do I have to use > the upstream source to be able to use that option? > > Kind regards, > > Anto > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News XIV - Where no toy has gone before
On Tue, 3/3/15, Franco Lanza wrote: Subject: Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News XIV - Where no toy has gone before To: "dng" Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2015, 8:41 PM > > Thanks hellekin and all DWN contributors, > with this editorial you made my day, i love it :D > > As we have such naming and as "where no toy has gone before" is so close > to a citation, can i suggest/hope that we can dedicate Jessie to Leonard > Nimoy? > A dedication to Leonard Nimoy? Not only a wonderful tribute but an opportunity for devuan to get some good press around the launch. golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
On Wed, Mar 04, 2015 at 12:51:21AM +, Isaac Dunham wrote: [cut] > > However, I recognize you probably won't get C done in less than 2 hours > like you do with Python. That's exactly my point :) And sometimes having a Python code ready in two hours is much more important for me than having a perfect, efficient and neat C code ready for the same thing but in one day. Evan if C would always be my preferred language, there are some tasks for which C is not just right, *for me* ;) [cut] > > Now, I've used Python a little bit, and I've used C a little bit. > I won't say that Python/$scripting_language "should not be used, period". > But there are a lot of the features that come at costs that sometimes > seem to be ignored. I have been writing a little bit of Python and a little bit of C as well, and I think I have a rough idea of the shortcomings of both. This is why when chosing between writing something in C or in Python I also take into account the time you need to get the code ready to run, the number of times that specific code is going to be ever used, and how much important efficiency is for that specific task. Sometimes the answer is "C. Fullstop", some other times it is "Python. Fullstop", and some other times it might be "well, either would be just fine", and I usually opt for C ;) My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
On Tue, Mar 03, 2015 at 04:42:42PM -0600, T.J. Duchene wrote: > On Tue, 3 Mar 2015 07:25:23 + > KatolaZ wrote: > > > > Well, if you found that *for your particular tasks* C can replace Perl > > or Python, I believe you. But it's just not true that this should be > > the case for everybody else, in every possible use case. > > > > What I have found is that many of the arguments surrounding the > particular choice of "this language is better for task A, while this one > is better for task B" is very subjective and often entirely false. > Well, being "subjective" does not automatically imply "being false". IMHO, as with all other creative activities, programming is all about background, knowledge, taste, mood, weather conditions, and millions of other *subjective* factors. And when you choose a language these subjective factors will have some relevance and count. I won't ever consider JAVA for anything serious, despite I think I used to know that language to a sufficient proficiency level. My repulsion is based just on personal *subjective* factors, not on any technical consideration or efficiency evaluation. And this will not change even if you show me with convincing scientific evidence that JAVA is the best possible language for every possible application you might ever need to code. I will not use it anyway :) A completely different story is being able to write *good* code, which is normally not strongly related with the language you use. If you are a good coder, you will always spit out good code in LISP, javascript, pascal, fortran, C, haskell or whatever. If you are an asshole of a coder, you will unavoidably vomit garbage, whatever fancy language you will end up using... No language will save you. There is a *huge* lot of very bad C code out there, and not because C is a bad language or enforces bad programming habits or avoids good practices. Just because there are far many more assholes than good coders, IMHO. My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
On Tue, Mar 03, 2015 at 10:07:41PM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: [cut] > > It can be discussed > > > wether the choice makes sense, but I don't see even why C should > > > always be considered. > > > > > > > > Efficiency and guaranteed portability, Diedler. You can't say the same > > of Python, Perl, etc - because in order to use them, you have to > > compile them from C first. > > Case study above, Scheme was clearly superior to C. Granted, Scheme > code did get compiled to C, but what I care about here is the code the > human programmers see. > Without entering a religious war about languages, similar examples exist about using Erlang or Haskell instead of legacy C code. For some specific tasks (but honestly not always) these languages can outperform C implementations, in a much shorter time than that needed to get a brand-new and better-conceived C implementation of the same thing. And both Erlang and Haskell are portable on a large variety of platforms. Again, the world is not just black or white when it comes to languages (of any kind) :) My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
On 03/03/2015 09:07 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: As time passed, they kept finding new uses for their scripting language. Occasionally they would realize and existing module needed major new functinoality, and it was easier to write the new version in Scheme than to modify the old. Over two years or so, they ended up replacing their C code, piece by piece, with Scheme code. In the end they had a system that was mostly written in Scheme, was more reliable, did more, ran faster, and was only about 3 lines of Scheme. When I say this, please do not think that I am making remarks against your experience or observations, but I just "don't get it". I don't see how that can be the case. The version of Scheme that you mention is specifically implemented on top of C, so your remarks cannot be entirely true, nor make any sense to me at all. Scheme can't be more reliable, do more, or run faster, especially if it implemented on top of C or even converted into system object code by the very same C compiler. The entire statement is "non sequitur." I will that any specific compiler, even a C compiler, can be total and utter crap, if it is badly implemented. I will also agree that individuals' programming skills can be massively lacking. It is possible that they were more skilled with Scheme than C, but that does not make Scheme superior to C by any objective standard. It was really a win for the high-level, garbage-collected language. I've used enough GC languages to know the problems that they try to solve. It's a good idea to try, really, and it is a fantastic debugging tool when testing code. But that is all it is good for. No one has ever created a fail-proof GC design. When the GC model fails, it makes fixing your code difficult, sometimes even impossible to correct without a patch for the entire runtime, not to mention you may need to recompile everything regardless after you get it. When someone can design a GC language that solves leaks and buffer overflows 100% of the time, I'll give them all the praise they deserve. Until then, the only things that GC does for you is waste memory, processor time, and force you to reboot the entire system more frequently in order to clear the exhausted resources. Have a great evening! t.j. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
