Re: [Dng] Looking for advices in preparation to switch from Debian to Devuan
On 24/02/15 17:08, Anto wrote: Here is what I plan to do: 1. Re-install Xen DomU image of Debian squeeze 2. Add the following files: # cat /etc/apt/preferences.d/blocksystemd Package: *systemd* Pin: origin "" Pin-Priority: -1 # # cat /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/77norecommends APT::Install-Recommends "0"; APT::Install-Suggests "0"; 3. Keep switching the repository from squeeze --> wheezy --> jessie --> testing, and do dist-upgrade on each step 4. I will pin some of the packages to their previous version when they fail to be upgraded Due to the pinning, I might not get the latest version of packages from testing repositories. But I think I can live with that until Devuan is being released. I think I finally managed to achieve my goal. That is to have Debian on my Xen VPS without any file or folder or even dmesg output containing "systemd". Considering that the initial release of Devuan will be based on Debian Jessie, I stopped at jessie's repository to avoid possible problems when I switch to Devuan later on. A part of pinning all packages containing "systemd" to Pin-Priority: -1 (which I actually have to list them one by one as wildcard does not work), I also added init-system-helpers into the list as it keeps creating folders /etc/systemd and /lib/systemd including all other useless files under that folders. Why am I being forced to have them? Why do I need those files and folders? I clearly don't want to use systemd. It is definitely the helper for systemd. So why the other packages are being made depending on init-system-helpers? Why does it not only being made as dependency of systemd, which will not be installed if I don't use systemd? Anyway. As I expected, I ended up with mixed versions of packages from multiple repositories. All other packages a part from the ones I noted below and anything related to them, are from jessie's repository. Some people say this is not recommended, but I think I can live with this for a while. - anacron is kept at version 2.3-19 on wheezy * anacron version 2.3-23 on jessie depends on init-system-helpers - at is kept at version 3.1.13-2 on wheezy * at version 3.1.16-1 on jessie depends on init-system-helpers - bsdutils is kept at version 1:2.20.1-5.3 on wheezy * bsdutils version 1:2.25.2-5 on jessie depends on libsystemd0 - consolekit is kept at version 0.4.5-3.1 on wheezy * consolekit version 0.4.6-5 on jessie depends on libck-connector0 (= 0.4.6-5) - cron is kept at version 3.0pl1-124 on wheezy * cron version 3.0pl1-127 on jessie depends on init-system-helpers - dbus is kept at version 1.2.24 on squeeze-lts * dbus version 1.6.8 on wheezy depends libsystemd-login0 * dbus version 1.8.16 on jessie depends on libsystemd0 - dmsetup is kept at version 2:1.02.74-8 on wheezy * dmsetup version 2:1.02.90-2 on jessie depends on libdevmapper1.02.1 (>= 2:1.02.90) - initscripts is kept at version 2.88dsf-41 on wheezy * initscript 2.88dsf-58 on jessie depends on sysvinit-utils (>= 2.88dsf-50) - libck-connector0 is kept at version 0.4.5-3.1 on wheezy * libck-connector0 version 0.4.6-5 on jessie depends on UNKOWN (must be related to systemd) - libdevmapper1.02.1 is kept at version 2:1.02.74-8 on wheezy * libdevmapper1.02.1 version 2:1.02.90-2 on jessie depends on dmsetup (>= 2:1.02.90-2) - libpolkit-gobject-1-0 is kept at version 0.105-3 on wheezy * libpolkit-gobject-1-0 version 0.105-8 on jessie depends on libsystemd0 - nginx-extras is going to be recompiled * it reqires nginx-common which even the wheezy's version keeps creating /lib/systemd/system/nginx.service - php5 packages are kept at version 5.4.36-0+deb7u3 on wheezy * php5-fpm version 5.6.5+dfsg-2 on jessie depends on libsystemd0 - rsyslog is kept at version 5.8.11-3 on wheezy * rsyslog version 8.4.2-1 on jessie depends on init-system-helpers - sysvinit is kept at version 2.88dsf-41 on wheezy * sysvinit version 2.88dsf-58 on jessie is forced to depend on everything related to systemd - sysvinit-utils is kept at version 2.88dsf-41 on wheezy * sysvinit-utils version 2.88dsf-58 on jessie replaces sysvinit (<= 2.86.ds1-65) - sysv-rc is kept at version 2.88dsf-41 on wheezy * sysv-rc version 2.88dsf-58 on jessie depends on sysvinit-utils (>= 2.86.ds1-62) - udev is kept at version 175-7.2 on wheezy * I don't really like to see *systemd* on my dmesg output - uuid-runtime is kept at version 2.20.1-5.3 on wheezy * uuid-runtime version 2.25.2-5 on jessie depends on libsystemd0 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] three important UI features
On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 07:32:05PM -0430, Richard wrote: [cut] > > > > And leaving the code as-is might be the faster way to get to Devuan 1.0. > > > > -- hendrik > > ___ > > Dng mailing list > > Dng@lists.dyne.org > > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > Which seems a worthwhile goal for Devuan today. > All these other interesting ideas will be great fun once we have workable, > usable basic distro to install and use, without systemd. Totally agree. We'd better have strong foundations before even start thinking about how the furniture of the penthouse on the 18th floor should look like My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] plan to install valentine pre-alpha on real hardware.
On 28 February 2015 16:19:58 CET, Svante Signell wrote: >On Sat, 2015-02-28 at 09:45 -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: > >> >> I read the Debian installer mailing list since I upgraded to Jessie >> early and had huge difficulties. Yes, there are currently many >> gotchas. There's apparently a bug that prevents them from >> offering a choice of inits, which they think is too comlex to >> fix before the Jessie release. > >Of course they don't want to offer alternate inits :( And the bug is a >long-standing one, where the maintainer refuses to include the very >small patch to debootstrap, see >https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=668001#20 >https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=668001#90 >https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=668001#100 wow, this thread is pretty much in sync with the development I'm doing yesterday I was respinning a new iso with loginkit for Dima to test and I hit this bug, keeping me busy for hours. cheers, I'll merge the patch. about the discussion and tones of the maintainer ... oyvey what an attitude!!! ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] pre-alpha live iso
On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 2:31 AM, Go Linux wrote: > fsmithred over at Refracta created a live iso of the valentine's pre-alpha > with refractasnapshot. He said I could post a link here for those who want > to check it out but don't want to install. > > http://distro.ibiblio.org/refracta/files/other/ Tested LiveCD unofficial-live-20150227_0355.iso Booted with Easy2boot on usb stick. Boots with no discernable problem, root password hacked at third attempt after trying "root", "debian" Problems with wireless allthough iwlwifi seemed to be loaded I could not get wlan0 interface Have errors in dmessg reagrding this. Missing interface. Problem for later. Found the old ethernet cable in the closet and got IP No browser so rebooted and downloaded opera static from my usual linux which is arch based so I have no prior knowledge to debian. The link is http://sourceforge.net/projects/portable/files/Opera%2011.50/download can be wget'ed tried my hand at apt-get: apt-get update # works but seems to ignore a lot of debian repos, probably a feature, right apt-get upgrade # Something did happen: mount util-linux upgraded apt-get install * # where * denotes what I tried like firefox and so on failed # probably doesn't have repo setup No problem mounting any media ntfs, FAT32, ext, BTRFS reboot worked but showed some warning or errors All in all it seems pretty solid in this pre-alpha state I have good hopes for the future Keep up the good work Best regards Scooby ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News XI
On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 03:12:54PM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: > I think we're seeing cultural differences here. What may not be a > swearword in one community may be in another. The guy is east european and has a very loose grasp on the english language. It's not a cultural difference, it's plain and simple ignorance. signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Re-compiling nginx without anything related to systemd
Hello Everybody,
I managed to re-compile nginx 1.6.2-5 from Debian jessie repository, and
it seems to be installed and running fine. What I did is basically just
removing everything that I thought to be related to systemd. But I am
not really sure if I did that properly. I would really appreciate your
feedbacks on this. Please have a look on the diff output below.
Kind regards,
Anto
diff -ru nginx-1.6.2_original/debian/control nginx-1.6.2/debian/control
--- nginx-1.6.2_original/debian/control2014-12-01 12:12:00.0
+0100
+++ nginx-1.6.2/debian/control2015-03-01 13:28:41.0 +0100
@@ -10,7 +10,6 @@
Christos Trochalakis
Build-Depends: autotools-dev,
debhelper (>= 9),
- dh-systemd (>= 1.5),
dpkg-dev (>= 1.15.5),
libexpat-dev,
libgd2-dev | libgd2-noxpm-dev,
diff -ru
nginx-1.6.2_original/debian/modules/nginx-http-push/tests/examine_coredump.sh
nginx-1.6.2/debian/modules/nginx-http-push/tests/examine_coredump.sh
---
nginx-1.6.2_original/debian/modules/nginx-http-push/tests/examine_coredump.sh
2014-12-01 12:12:00.0 +0100
+++ nginx-1.6.2/debian/modules/nginx-http-push/tests/examine_coredump.sh
2015-03-01 13:22:27.0 +0100
@@ -12,6 +12,5 @@
echo "saving coredump for $target at $dump"
-sudo systemd-coredumpctl dump $target > $dump
kdbg ./nginx "$dump" 2>/dev/null
# rm "$dump" #keep it around for now
diff -ru
nginx-1.6.2_original/debian/modules/nginx-http-push/tests/nginx-pushmodule/PKGBUILD
nginx-1.6.2/debian/modules/nginx-http-push/tests/nginx-pushmodule/PKGBUILD
---
nginx-1.6.2_original/debian/modules/nginx-http-push/tests/nginx-pushmodule/PKGBUILD
2014-12-01 12:12:00.0 +0100
+++
nginx-1.6.2/debian/modules/nginx-http-push/tests/nginx-pushmodule/PKGBUILD
2015-03-01 13:23:17.0 +0100
@@ -147,7 +147,6 @@
#install -D -m644 "${srcdir}/nginx.logrotate"
"${pkgdir}/etc/logrotate.d/${_pkgname}" #no default logrotate.
install -D -m644 "${srcdir}/nginx.conf" "${pkgdir}/etc/conf.d/nginx"
- install -D -m644 "${srcdir}/nginx.service"
"${pkgdir}/lib/systemd/system/nginx.service"
install -D -m644 "LICENSE" "${pkgdir}/usr/share/licenses/nginx/LICENSE"
if [[ -z $NGINX_VERYOLDVERSION ]]; then
install -D -m644 "man/nginx.8" "${pkgdir}/usr/share/man/man8/nginx.8"
diff:
nginx-1.6.2_original/debian/modules/nginx-http-push/tests/nginx-pushmodule/pushmodule:
recursive directory loop
Only in nginx-1.6.2_original/debian: nginx-common.nginx.service
diff -ru nginx-1.6.2_original/debian/rules nginx-1.6.2/debian/rules
--- nginx-1.6.2_original/debian/rules2014-12-01 12:12:00.0 +0100
+++ nginx-1.6.2/debian/rules2015-03-01 13:25:36.0 +0100
@@ -113,7 +113,7 @@
--add-module=$(MODULESDIR)/ngx_http_substitutions_filter_module
%:
-dh $@ --with systemd
+dh $@
override_dh_auto_configure: $(foreach
flavour,$(FLAVOURS),config.arch.$(flavour))
override_dh_auto_build: $(foreach
flavour,$(FLAVOURS),build.arch.$(flavour))
@@ -124,9 +124,6 @@
override_dh_installinit:
dh_installinit --no-restart-on-upgrade --no-start --name=nginx
-override_dh_systemd_enable:
-dh_systemd_enable --name=nginx
-
override_dh_installlogrotate:
dh_installlogrotate --package nginx-common --name=nginx
___
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Dng@lists.dyne.org
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Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 06:11:42PM -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote: > * On 2015 28 Feb 17:07 -0600, T.J. Duchene wrote: > > As for systemd having "tentacles", there is certainly truth to that, but > > then the same argument could be said of Python or Perl. Both are rooted > > so far into "standard" distributions that it is hard to extract them. > > With all respect, T.J., those are merely programming languages--shell, C > and C++ are also "hard to extract"--but none are trying to dictate > policy. They are tools a programmer uses to solve a problem which > parallels your point that systemd is a tool for distributions, but yet > it is seeking to impose a policy many of us dislike, especially going > forward. Debian users are a bit insulated at the moment as the freeze > is keeping systemd at a given version. Its tentacles extend even > further in later versions, AIUI. The way Perl and Python are different from systemd is that they are not exclusionary -- using them for one package doesn't prevent using other tools in other packages. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] simple backgrounds
On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 06:55:01PM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 10:09:50PM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote: > > > > > > Aren't there wallpapers provided by the DE's, eg. xfce4? In this > > case, it isn't usefull to provide anything else. > > Didier > > And in fact, it would be work to remove them, so leave them be. > > Except on my Debian Jessie system the walpaper I get is a blue screen > with a Debian logo, a few artistic-looking wwhite curved lines, and the > words "Debian 8". > > There's an menu for choosing another background called "xfce-blue.jpg", > but even when I select it, it doesn't seem to appear on the background. > (Could systemd be involved here?) > > No. it's not important to tell me how to change the background -- I > don't really care all that much. Eventully it'll all just work on > Devuan, and I'll wait for that. Dor copleteness, I *did* manage to change the background -- intermittently. I chose an image that was on my hard disk, used the xfce coniguration menus to set it to being the background. It now shows up some of the time when I log in. Other times I just get the usual bland background. No, don't waste time here debugging my use of Debian Jessie. There are more important things I need to do. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] us as tech support (was: Can't hit Internet from Valentines
On Sun, Mar 01, 2015 at 01:09:21AM -0500, Gravis wrote: > now we're tech support? To an extent, yes. We need to know what problems people have with our software, so we can either fix it or fix the documentation. Or do we want to be accused of "notlistening to our users"? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
On Sun, Mar 01, 2015 at 01:53:11AM -0500, Gravis wrote: > > Having [perl and python] doesn't cost much, IMO. > > this is true however, you only need a single deep-seeded flaw to > exploit an entire system when it comes to scripting. for further > reading, see bash. This is true of any library you might use, whether it's a scripting language or not. Such tools tend to get more reliable the more they are used, because more bugs are found and fixed. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What if systemd infects the kernel?
On Sun, 3/1/15, Jude Nelson wrote: Subject: Re: [Dng] What if systemd infects the kernel? To: "Gravis" Cc: "dng@lists.dyne.org" Date: Sunday, March 1, 2015, 12:01 AM >> I have been aware of the pending assimilation of systemd into the kernel >> since Linus dramatically rejected Kay >> Sievers' code last spring. Recently there has been renewed chatter about >> the impending doom. But I'm not quite >> clear how that would affect devuan. Hoping you can help me get a grip on >> the situation: >> > As far as I know, systemd is *not* getting merged into the kernel. It's not > even being *considered* for merging. > > Linus was mad at Kay Sievers for something completely unrelated. Kay had > introduced a regression in udev that > could cause it to hang due to the way it handled a driver's request for > firmware (until the kernel timed the firmware > request out after 30 > seconds). Instead of fixing the regression (and it was a regression--he was > using the *well > documented* firmware loader *incorrectly*), he went on to suggest that the > kernel developers were at fault for the > situation by designing Linux's > firmware loader the way they did, instead of fixing the problem he created. > The rest > is history. > > As I said in another thread, kdbus as it is incarnated today (and this is > subject to change--it's been pretty much > re-written each time Greg KH has submitted it to lkml) requires some > userspace help in setting it up. This is only > necessary if your kernel has kdbus and you have programs that want to use it. > kdbus by itself is just another way > to move bytes between processes, and > it offers some semantics that aren't found in other existing IPC > mechanisms. It is *not at all* like dbus, any more than a UNIX domain socket > is like dbus or a pipe is like dbus. > The only thing kdbus has in common with dbus is that it shares part of the > name. > > -Jude Thank to you, Jude, and the others who helped to clear some of the fog. :) golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] us as tech support
On 01/03/15 17:38, Hendrik Boom wrote: On Sun, Mar 01, 2015 at 01:09:21AM -0500, Gravis wrote: now we're tech support? To an extent, yes. We need to know what problems people have with our software, so we can either fix it or fix the documentation. Or do we want to be accused of "notlistening to our users"? -- hendriks I only posted 2 topics in this mailing list so far, with the hope to get the "tech support". The question of Gravis above makes me wonder if I posted my emails to the right mailing list, as that kind of question is implying that this is not the right mailing list to ask for "tech support". If so, I am really sorry for that. If there is other mailing list or perhaps a public forum for the "tech support" related questions, please let me know that. I am quite sure there are a lot of people out there who are genuinely eager to get in touch with Devuan. I think that kind of media also helps Devuan to gain publicity. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] us as tech support
On Sun, Mar 01, 2015 at 06:06:01PM +0100, Anto wrote: > On 01/03/15 17:38, Hendrik Boom wrote: > >On Sun, Mar 01, 2015 at 01:09:21AM -0500, Gravis wrote: > >>now we're tech support? > >To an extent, yes. > > > >We need to know what problems people have with our software, so we can > >either fix it or fix the documentation. > > > >Or do we want to be accused of "notlistening to our users"? > > > >-- hendriks > I only posted 2 topics in this mailing list so far, with the hope to > get the "tech support". The question of Gravis above makes me wonder > if I posted my emails to the right mailing list, as that kind of > question is implying that this is not the right mailing list to ask > for "tech support". If so, I am really sorry for that. If there is > other mailing list or perhaps a public forum for the "tech support" > related questions, please let me know that. I am quite sure there > are a lot of people out there who are genuinely eager to get in > touch with Devuan. I think that kind of media also helps Devuan to > gain publicity. This is the right mailing list. There is no other at present. Gravis expressed surprise at having a tech support request, but he *did* answer the question. I'm happy to have seen the first tech support request here. It's a milestone. I just expected it to arrive after the first release. This wasn't even called an alpha release yet! -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] us as tech support
On Sun, 3/1/15, Anto wrote: Subject: Re: [Dng] us as tech support To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Sunday, March 1, 2015, 11:06 AM On 01/03/15 17:38, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Sun, Mar 01, 2015 at 01:09:21AM -0500, Gravis wrote: >>> now we're tech support? >> To an extent, yes. >> >> We need to know what problems people have with our software, so we can >> either fix it or fix the documentation. >> >> Or do we want to be accused of "notlistening to our users"? >> > -- hendriks > I only posted 2 topics in this mailing list so far, with the hope to get > the "tech support". The question of Gravis above makes me wonder if I > posted my emails to the right mailing list, as that kind of question is > implying that this is not the right mailing list to ask for "tech > support". If so, I am really sorry for that. If there is other mailing > list or perhaps a public forum for the "tech support" related questions, > please let me know that. I am quite sure there are a lot of people out > there who are genuinely eager to get in touch with Devuan. I think that > kind of media also helps Devuan to gain publicity. > Anto, there are also freenode IRC channels for devuan discussion/support - #debianfork and #devaun are probably the two best options. golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] us as tech support
+1 on this. That should be the main point or one of them. If not point to FAQs, Installation docs. Hey can this be added to git? I'll help. On 03/01/2015 12:06 PM, Anto wrote: On 01/03/15 17:38, Hendrik Boom wrote: On Sun, Mar 01, 2015 at 01:09:21AM -0500, Gravis wrote: now we're tech support? To an extent, yes. We need to know what problems people have with our software, so we can either fix it or fix the documentation. Or do we want to be accused of "notlistening to our users"? -- hendriks I only posted 2 topics in this mailing list so far, with the hope to get the "tech support". The question of Gravis above makes me wonder if I posted my emails to the right mailing list, as that kind of question is implying that this is not the right mailing list to ask for "tech support". If so, I am really sorry for that. If there is other mailing list or perhaps a public forum for the "tech support" related questions, please let me know that. I am quite sure there are a lot of people out there who are genuinely eager to get in touch with Devuan. I think that kind of media also helps Devuan to gain publicity. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] us as tech support
On 01/03/15 18:27, Hendrik Boom wrote: This is the right mailing list. There is no other at present. Gravis expressed surprise at having a tech support request, but he *did* answer the question. I'm happy to have seen the first tech support request here. It's a milestone. I just expected it to arrive after the first release. This wasn't even called an alpha release yet! -- hendrik Thanks a lot Hendrik for your confirmation. As you might be aware, my questions are mostly about the preparation to switch from Debian to Devuan on my 2 Xen VPS', hence pre-alpha release questions. I am worry that my VPS providers will not provide Xen DomU image of Devuan in a few months after it is being released. Based on my previous experience, they provided the Xen DomU image of Debian Wheezy several months after it was being released. For Devuan, it is very likely to take longer time, if that would happen at all. The only way that I see is to switch the repository from Debian to Devuan. But I am not really sure if that would work, so I am trying to minimise all possible issues based on my limited knowledge. I really hope that I will not face the impossibility like switching the repository from Debian to Ubuntu for instance. Kind regards, Anto ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
On Sun, 1 Mar 2015 09:01:58 -0500 Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 06:11:42PM -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote: > > * On 2015 28 Feb 17:07 -0600, T.J. Duchene wrote: > > > As for systemd having "tentacles", there is certainly truth to > > > that, but then the same argument could be said of Python or > > > Perl. Both are rooted so far into "standard" distributions that > > > it is hard to extract them. > > > > With all respect, T.J., those are merely programming > > languages--shell, C and C++ are also "hard to extract"--but none > > are trying to dictate policy. They are tools a programmer uses to > > solve a problem which parallels your point that systemd is a tool > > for distributions, but yet it is seeking to impose a policy many of > > us dislike, especially going forward. Debian users are a bit > > insulated at the moment as the freeze is keeping systemd at a given > > version. Its tentacles extend even further in later versions, AIUI. > > The way Perl and Python are different from systemd is that they are > not exclusionary -- using them for one package doesn't prevent using > other tools in other packages. True, and in addition, they've both been pretty much assumed to be installed on every distro for the last decade. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] us as tech support
You may want to see if the vps provider supports uploading your own (devuan) iso image. I remember finding one for a project that wanted to use Slack. On 03/01/2015 01:03 PM, Anto wrote: On 01/03/15 18:27, Hendrik Boom wrote: This is the right mailing list. There is no other at present. Gravis expressed surprise at having a tech support request, but he *did* answer the question. I'm happy to have seen the first tech support request here. It's a milestone. I just expected it to arrive after the first release. This wasn't even called an alpha release yet! -- hendrik Thanks a lot Hendrik for your confirmation. As you might be aware, my questions are mostly about the preparation to switch from Debian to Devuan on my 2 Xen VPS', hence pre-alpha release questions. I am worry that my VPS providers will not provide Xen DomU image of Devuan in a few months after it is being released. Based on my previous experience, they provided the Xen DomU image of Debian Wheezy several months after it was being released. For Devuan, it is very likely to take longer time, if that would happen at all. The only way that I see is to switch the repository from Debian to Devuan. But I am not really sure if that would work, so I am trying to minimise all possible issues based on my limited knowledge. I really hope that I will not face the impossibility like switching the repository from Debian to Ubuntu for instance. Kind regards, Anto ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Circumvention Tech Festival
As some of you know, I'm in the CTF. Being here, I wonder: Can Devuan be a security-aware, privacy-aware distro? Er Envite Enviado de Samsung Mobile___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] us as tech support
On 01/03/15 19:18, etech3 wrote: You may want to see if the vps provider supports uploading your own (devuan) iso image. I remember finding one for a project that wanted to use Slack. I have already asked and they do not support that. It could possibly be that I took their cheapest plan, so the customisation support is quite limited. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Circumvention Tech Festival
...CTF? On 1 March 2015 at 20:20, envite wrote: > As some of you know, I'm in the CTF. > > Being here, I wonder: > > Can Devuan be a security-aware, privacy-aware distro? > > Er Envite > > > Enviado de Samsung Mobile > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Circumvention Tech Festival
On 03/01/2015 01:53 PM, Martijn Dekkers wrote: > ...CTF? > Probably the [Circumvention Tech Festival][0], as in the subject. [0]: https://openitp.org/festival/about.html -- Istvan Chung ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Circumvention Tech Festival
On Mar 1, 2015 1:50 PM, "envite" wrote: > > As some of you know, I'm in the CTF. > > Being here, I wonder: > > Can Devuan be a security-aware, privacy-aware distro? > > Er Envite > > > Enviado de Samsung Mobile > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > It may be. Time will tell. No one knows yet. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Circumvention Tech Festival
dear Envite, On Sun, 01 Mar 2015, envite wrote: >Being here, I wonder: >Can Devuan be a security-aware, privacy-aware distro? Devuan 1.0 is not yet there: until then we are not building a lot of character beyond being systemd-free and fork-friendly. We do inherit a lot from Debian, especially for the privacy aware part. Yet simplicity and transparency mean better security. There are many opsec and pentesting professionals I know who believe that, even if systemd would be written by the best coders on Earth, with its entry by default in Debian we are facing the opening of a huge attack surface due to bugs not yet foreseen and to behaviour of its users who aren't aware of its functioning just yet. It may be just a matter of statistics if we compare the probability of a new bug to appear in the 20 year old way to do things and the 2 year old way. Therefore I dare to say that Devuan is more security-aware than Debian for two main reasons: it keeps the status-quo and it doesn't engages deployement of a new core component that exists only since a few years. On top of that also consider we are doing our best to contain the attitude of GNOME and other DE developments which are spawning daemons like there is no tomorrow, polluting the process tree and making it very difficult to know what is what... ciao -- Jaromil, Dyne.org Software Foundry (est. 2000) We are free to share code and we code to share freedom Web: https://j.dyne.org Contact: https://j.dyne.org/c.vcf GPG: 6113 D89C A825 C5CE DD02 C872 73B3 5DA5 4ACB 7D10 Confidential communications: https://keybase.io/jaromil ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
Am 01.03.2015 00:04 schrieb T.J. Duchene: As for systemd having "tentacles", there is certainly truth to that, but then the same argument could be said of Python or Perl. Both are rooted so far into "standard" distributions that it is hard to extract them. As other members have already pointed out, this is not a fair comparison. Ultimately, the whole problem revolves around the idea of packaging. Personally, I've come to believe that the existing idea of package management is more damaging to Linux than systemd itself. If the Debian packaging system separated the actual init files from binary package files, then majority of developers making Jesse packages that assume systemd rather than System 5 would be non-issue. I'm not sure that I agree with this. Packaging is, in the end, just a practical way to manage compiled software on your system. On the other hand, what a given software does, and how that software is tied to other software, is inherently independent from which package management system is being used. If software A needs software B because its developer decided to rely on software B, then it doesn't matter whether the downstream packager decides to put B as a dependency or not. However, if he doesn't, then software A most probably won't work as intended, if it'll work at all. Of course packaging, especially when automatic dependency resolution is implemented, will introduce loads of possible decisions that can be made by downstream packagers, but this is a completely different story, let alone the so-called "tasks", which I admit having always skipped while using Debian: in fact I wanted to decide by myself which were the "defaults" I needed. That being said, the Grand Unifying Init System's attempt to hijack a large part of the free software ecosystem, by imposing itself as a hard dependency, is technically independent from downstream packaging decisions, even if it does influence those decisions. I guess that far from focusing on subjective topics, DeVuan is forking DeBian itself right now, while encouraging objective and balanced discussion, which is welcome and a pleasure to read. Fair enough, Philip. Who am I to say it does not have entertainment value? Not only entertainment value: educational and *ethical* value as well. As a person who has written C code and used Unixes for about 20+ years, I see some technical benefit in systemd's approach. Just because systemd itself has design flaws does not mean the entire concept is bad. The fact that I come right out and say so, even if it just happens to go against the majority sensibility is: with blunt honestly, not my problem. No one ever said that its entire concept is bad. Moreover, I think it is kind of useless to insist with this here, since Devuan is intentionally, consciously and rationally avoiding systemd, no matter what its technical merits are. I'm not really looking for a debate on the topic, because in the grand scheme of things my opinion does not amount to much, really. Nor should it. You should always make up your own mind. Of course. If you'd rather not hear it, I can certainly go elsewhere or refrain from posting, but I personally do not believe that Devuan needs "yes men" (or yes-women). Well, the decision is completely up to you. I am a guest on this list, and I'm a peaceful fellow, hence it is not my goal, nor my right, to send anyone away, whatever opinions they have. On the other hand, as others have pointed out, there are plenty of pro/anti systemd debates on the Web already, so it makes no sense to replicate them here, a systemd-free project by definition. This one seems to have been inspired by Microsoft's ancient anti-Linux FUD marketing campaign - you know, the one with a long-proboscized monster-penguin. Not at all. It is simply a comment on the collective nature of Linux. Sometimes design by committee is not the best approach. That's simply life. That I call Linux a "Linux is a mean-spirited, ugly camel with the number of humps chosen by committee" but "endearing" at the same time is nothing more than a recognition that it has flaws. There are precisely zero perfect software projects in the world. Having had this much time in the field, I simply have no illusions about it is all, and I feel free to say so. Agreed, but one can find drawbacks in every approach, and again, it makes little sense to reiterate this here, since it is a well known factor which can potentially affect just about every situation where humans interact. Most of all, it doesn't seem to be a problem affecting Devuan very much. I'm sorry if that bothers you, but it hardly seems a secret to me. It doesn't bother me, I just find it pretty useless and redundant, and not much constructive: I guess we already know that "the Open Source community is full of a**holes", etc. etc. Have a great day, Philip! =) Have a great day too, t.j. Philip ___
Re: [Dng] us as tech support
On Sun, 01 Mar 2015 18:06:01 +0100 Anto wrote: > On 01/03/15 17:38, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > On Sun, Mar 01, 2015 at 01:09:21AM -0500, Gravis wrote: > >> now we're tech support? > > To an extent, yes. > > > > We need to know what problems people have with our software, so we > > can either fix it or fix the documentation. > > > > Or do we want to be accused of "notlistening to our users"? > > > > -- hendriks > I only posted 2 topics in this mailing list so far, with the hope to > get the "tech support". The question of Gravis above makes me wonder > if I posted my emails to the right mailing list, Obviously one of the uses of this mailing list is tech support. And as such, we always walk a fine line between enabling lazy people who won't search for themselves, and snarking out people who have already looked, or have no idea where to look. Personally, I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, as long as they submit a reasonable symptom description. That's what Gravis did, giving me a 1 sentence path to take. In this particular case, I think the deal was that I was asking a qemu question, not a Devuan Valentines question. And it got answered. The reasons I didn't spend more time searching for an answer were: 1) I didn't know at the time that it was not a Devuan Valentines question. 2) Any time I spent troubleshooting the problem would have come right off the time I was spending doing the Devuan dmenu howto. 3) I believe the purpose of RTFM is to eliminate easy, five minute answers, not to cost the questioner a lot of time when the answer just might be a single sentence. Anyway, I think obviously one of the list's functions should be tech support. Some of us will want to do that, and some would prefer to ignore the question, and that's fine. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] us as tech support
Take a look at https://my.vultr.com, Don't know anything about them so YWMV. I know you can upload Slack. On 03/01/2015 01:48 PM, Anto wrote: On 01/03/15 19:18, etech3 wrote: You may want to see if the vps provider supports uploading your own (devuan) iso image. I remember finding one for a project that wanted to use Slack. I have already asked and they do not support that. It could possibly be that I took their cheapest plan, so the customisation support is quite limited. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News XI
On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 03:12:54PM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 07:22:26PM +0300, Jack L. Frost wrote: > > > Could you please cease ??kickass?? here -- for people read your news > > > also, but such rudness leaves them nothing but to shrink from your > > > writing. Thanks again for the news though. > > > > ???kickass??? is not even a swear word. > > I think we're seeing cultural differences here. What may not be a > swearword in one community may be in another. Over here, those who are more particular about such things consider "ass" to be a somewhat vulgar term when referring to the posterior rather than a male donkey (and "kick ass" refers to the aforesaid pportion of the anatomy). Not quite a swear word, but something to be avoided. Thanks, Isaac Dunham ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] No way to use a prepartioned disk?
I tried using the valentine installer on a disk that already had three primary partitions and a lot of empty space. I could not get manual partitioning to leave the existing partitions alone and install devuan to secondary partitions in the empty space. The closest I could get was a question whether I'd like it to replace the existing partition table with a new empty one. Of course I answered 'no'. I wanted it to start from the existing partition structure. 'yes' seemed somewhat dangerous. Well, in reality, those partitions wera a copy of files I had elsewhere and wanted to be able to use on the new system in a dual-boot configuration, so in theory I could have gone further and restored those partition later, and when I have time I may still do that to further test the installer. But I'd rather test how well int cooperates with other existing systems. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] No way to use a prepartioned disk?
On Sun, Mar 01, 2015 at 05:44:47PM +, Hendrik Boom wrote: > I tried using the valentine installer on a disk that already had three > primary partitions and a lot of empty space. In case it's relevant, I was using the expert install, wanting to make my own paritioning decisions. That's what I usually do when installing Debian. Was this a mistake? -- hendrik > > I could not get manual partitioning to leave the existing partitions > alone and install devuan to secondary partitions in the empty space. The > closest I could get was a question whether I'd like it to replace the > existing partition table with a new empty one. Of course I answered > 'no'. I wanted it to start from the existing partition structure. > 'yes' seemed somewhat dangerous. > > Well, in reality, those partitions wera a copy of files I had elsewhere > and wanted to be able to use on the new system in a dual-boot > configuration, so in theory I could have gone further and restored those > partition later, and when I have time I may still do that to further test > the installer. But I'd rather test how well int cooperates with other > existing systems. > > -- hendrik > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] No way to use a prepartioned disk?
@Hendrik, I installed Valentine on an existing partition of a 150 GiB HD on an Acer Aspire One. As I remember the terminology of the installer is a bit vague on the subject. I must have changed the FS to ext4 since that is what it reports via lsblk. On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 1:14 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > I tried using the valentine installer on a disk that already had three > primary partitions and a lot of empty space. > > I could not get manual partitioning to leave the existing partitions > alone and install devuan to secondary partitions in the empty space. The > closest I could get was a question whether I'd like it to replace the > existing partition table with a new empty one. Of course I answered > 'no'. I wanted it to start from the existing partition structure. > 'yes' seemed somewhat dangerous. > > Well, in reality, those partitions wera a copy of files I had elsewhere > and wanted to be able to use on the new system in a dual-boot > configuration, so in theory I could have gone further and restored those > partition later, and when I have time I may still do that to further test > the installer. But I'd rather test how well int cooperates with other > existing systems. > > -- hendrik > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > -- PCLinuxOS, MS-14, Trios, Devuan ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] No way to use a prepartioned disk?
dear Hendrik, On Sun, 01 Mar 2015, Hendrik Boom wrote: > I tried using the valentine installer on a disk that already had three > primary partitions and a lot of empty space. > > I could not get manual partitioning to leave the existing partitions > alone and install devuan to secondary partitions in the empty space. The > closest I could get was a question whether I'd like it to replace the > existing partition table with a new empty one. Of course I answered > 'no'. I wanted it to start from the existing partition structure. > 'yes' seemed somewhat dangerous. this may be food for thought for debian-installer "upstream" at Debian. We will not fix it further than removing systemd in this phase and the limits that you mention are also in Debian I believe. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] No way to use a prepartioned disk?
On Sun, 3/1/15, Hendrik Boom wrote: Subject: [Dng] No way to use a prepartioned disk? To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Sunday, March 1, 2015, 11:44 AM > I tried using the valentine installer on a disk that already had three > primary partitions and a lot of empty space. > > I could not get manual partitioning to leave the existing partitions > alone and install devuan to secondary partitions in the empty space. The > closest I could get was a question whether I'd like it to replace the > existing partition table with a new empty one. Of course I answered > 'no'. I wanted it to start from the existing partition structure. > 'yes' seemed somewhat dangerous. > > Well, in reality, those partitions wera a copy of files I had elsewhere > and wanted to be able to use on the new system in a dual-boot > configuration, so in theory I could have gone further and restored those > partition later, and when I have time I may still do that to further test > the installer. But I'd rather test how well int cooperates with other > existing systems. > > -- hendrik fsmithred experienced something similar a while back. http://refracta.freeforums.org/post4651.html#p4651 That's when I decided to wait for a live iso to play with rather than installing on metal. golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] No way to use a prepartioned disk?
On Sun, Mar 01, 2015 at 10:44:20PM +0100, Jaromil wrote: > > dear Hendrik, > > On Sun, 01 Mar 2015, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > I tried using the valentine installer on a disk that already had three > > primary partitions and a lot of empty space. > > > > I could not get manual partitioning to leave the existing partitions > > alone and install devuan to secondary partitions in the empty space. The > > closest I could get was a question whether I'd like it to replace the > > existing partition table with a new empty one. Of course I answered > > 'no'. I wanted it to start from the existing partition structure. > > 'yes' seemed somewhat dangerous. > > > this may be food for thought for debian-installer "upstream" at Debian. > We will not fix it further than removing systemd in this phase and the > limits that you mention are also in Debian I believe. Interesting. I've used the Debian installer before, I think in the time of wheezy, and it worked with existing partitions. Could sticking systemd into it have broken their partitioning? Did they really put systemd into the installer?? Anyway, someone else reports success installing with existing partitions, so I guess it's a matter of confusing messages, rather than missing functionality. But he doesn't seem to remember just exactly what he did. Which version of the Debian installer was our valentine based on? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] No way to use a prepartioned disk?
On Sun, Mar 01, 2015 at 05:07:10PM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: > Interesting. I've used the Debian installer before, I think in the > time of wheezy, and it worked with existing partitions. So does the one in jessie. I guess you did something wrong. As long as one partition is marked for mounting as /, everything seems to work for me. > Could sticking systemd into it have broken their partitioning? Did they > really put systemd into the installer?? Not yet. Jessie's installer is systemd-free, except for unavoidably[1] installing systemd on the target system. [1]. You can partially remove it later using late_command, but by then, lots of droppings are already there. Supporting packages, files, system users and groups, etc... -- // If you believe in so-called "intellectual property", please immediately // cease using counterfeit alphabets. Instead, contact the nearest temple // of Amon, whose priests will provide you with scribal services for all // your writing needs, for Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory prices. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Doc Devuan
https://git.devuan.org/devuan-doc group is looking for participants, especially Debianites working with the Debian Documentation Project. So far the existing Debian Manuals repository was imported from the SVN, and available at https://git.devuan.org/devuan-doc/debian-manuals https://git.devuan.org/devuan-doc/devuan-reference includes the original Debian Quick Reference in the debian-reference branch, and the master is mostly a placeholder for now. I suppose it would be doable to activate Asciidoc support in the Gitlab wiki to be able to minimize the changes in documentation from Debian to Devuan. Plans include using devuan.org/doc like debian.org/doc for general devuan reference. It will obviously take some time before Devuan has its own documentation independent from Debian's. In the meantime, we're using the devuan-doc/manuals wiki at https://git.devuan.org/devuan-doc/manuals/wikis/help. Steve Litt inaugurated it with https://git.devuan.org/devuan-doc/manuals/wikis/how-to-use-dmenu-in-devuan \o/ Cheers, == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] No way to use a prepartioned disk?
On Sun, 01 Mar 2015, Hendrik Boom wrote: > Interesting. I've used the Debian installer before, I think in the > time of wheezy, and it worked with existing partitions. Could sticking > systemd into it have broken their partitioning? Did they really put > systemd into the installer?? systemd is there in the very early phases of install yes. As documented in another thread here, it is forced into debootstrap which is the very first tool used to generate a new Debian system. the DD maintaining deboostrap refuses to accept a fix for a bug - lack to honor the "exclude" directive - which among other things is useful to avoid systemd indeed. so yes: systemd is forced inside the installer and in ways that are very questionable, to say the least. > Which version of the Debian installer was our valentine based on? it is 20150107, the RC1 for Debian Jessie. ciao signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] No way to use a prepartioned disk?
On Mar 1, 2015 5:58 PM, "Jaromil" wrote: > > On Sun, 01 Mar 2015, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > Interesting. I've used the Debian installer before, I think in the > > time of wheezy, and it worked with existing partitions. Could sticking > > systemd into it have broken their partitioning? Did they really put > > systemd into the installer?? > > systemd is there in the very early phases of install yes. As documented > in another thread here, it is forced into debootstrap which is the very > first tool used to generate a new Debian system. the DD maintaining > deboostrap refuses to accept a fix for a bug - lack to honor the > "exclude" directive - which among other things is useful to avoid > systemd indeed. so yes: systemd is forced inside the installer and in > ways that are very questionable, to say the least. > > > Which version of the Debian installer was our valentine based on? > > it is 20150107, the RC1 for Debian Jessie. > > ciao > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > I'll try it again since I overwrote that install of Devuan. I'll make notes. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] No way to use a prepartioned disk?
> > On 03/01/2015 04:41 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote:> On Sun, Mar 01, 2015 at > 05:44:47PM +, Hendrik Boom wrote: >>> I tried using the valentine installer on a disk that already had three >>> primary partitions and a lot of empty space. >> >> In case it's relevant, I was using the expert install, wanting to make >> my own paritioning decisions. That's what I usually do when installing >> Debian. Was this a mistake? >> >> -- hendrik >> The first time I installed the valentine preview, it was on existing partitions in a virtualbox VM. I chose a regular (non-expert)install, chose manual partitioning. When the partitioner showed me the existing partitions, I noticed that there were two partitions instead of one. There was a swap partition inside an extended partition, which I'm sure I did not create. Other than that, the installation went fine. I then booted the VM with a live CD and repartitioned the drive using gparted. Made a single partition again, then rebooted the valentine iso to see if the same thing would happen, but it did not. I could not reproduce it. I even tried a third time. Except for that first install, the partitioner did what I expected it to do - it showed me the existing partitions and allowed me to choose whether to use them or not. fsr >> >> I could not get manual partitioning to leave the existing partitions >> alone and install devuan to secondary partitions in the empty space. The >> closest I could get was a question whether I'd like it to replace the >> existing partition table with a new empty one. Of course I answered >> 'no'. I wanted it to start from the existing partition structure. >> 'yes' seemed somewhat dangerous. >> >> Well, in reality, those partitions wera a copy of files I had elsewhere >> and wanted to be able to use on the new system in a dual-boot >> configuration, so in theory I could have gone further and restored those >> partition later, and when I have time I may still do that to further test >> the installer. But I'd rather test how well int cooperates with other >> existing systems. >> >> -- hendrik >> >> ___ >> Dng mailing list >> Dng@lists.dyne.org >> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
On Sun, 2015-03-01 at 21:12 +0100, Philip Lacroix wrote: > As other members have already pointed out, this is not a fair > comparison. Perhaps. The reasons I made the comparison are: a) All of them have a dependency chain so interwoven and complex that they become non-trivial to remove. You literally cannot have a Debian/Devuan system without things like Perl or Python installed. b) The software written in either language have complex module dependency chains. Install something like MailScanner, and you will install a dozen Perl modules as well as a requirement. c) In both languages, modules are usually something of a "black art" and notorious for being unreliable at unexpected times. In my experience, while you can generally expect things like the Perl core language to act reliably,you can't expect the same of the rest of the Perl ecosystem to do the same. The QA simply is not there. Not to mention that all of this can massively impact performance. Systemd comes on the scene. Like everything else, it naturally has its good and bad points. Soon it starts following a repeating pattern: a) Soon Linux requires it, and it is non-trivial to be rid of it. b) Modules are written in such a way that you must have the core or a shim to use the system. Then they are incorporated into yet more software, and it snowballs. (Sound familiar?) c) The systemd modules impact system performance, and are less than reliable. Again like the the above, the real QA is simply not there. So yes, I do feel the comparison is somewhat valid. My concern however is not a perfect symmetry, but rather the design philosophy behind them. Over the years I've been a programmer the level of abstraction has increased dramatically. More and more complex layers of dependencies are placed one on top of the other. It's the order of the day, and to what end? Call me a minimalist if you like, but as Scotty used to say: "The more you over-think the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain." Software performance and reliability has actually decreased in spite of the fact that your machines are far, far more powerful than the old 8086 I used to spend my days on. You are, of course, welcome to disagree and even tell me to "stuff it" if you wish. Maybe I just come from another time, but I would characterize things like Perl, Python, and Systemd as the push for more and more abstraction that is detrimental to computer science in general. > Packaging is, in the end, just a > practical > way to manage compiled software on your system. On the other hand, what > a given > software does, and how that software is tied to other software, is > inherently > independent from which package management system is being used. If > software A > needs software B because its developer decided to rely on software B, > then it > doesn't matter whether the downstream packager decides to put B as a > dependency > or not. However, if he doesn't, then software A most probably won't work > as > intended, if it'll work at all. I'm not advocating abandoning the model entirely, rather that some of the constraints could be removed and that a more robust model could be created using version management software. I suggested that init files should be separated for example. Init files seldom change between versions. Sometimes they do, certainly - but the majority of the time they are virtually identical. Why repackage the same files over and over? It wastes repo space and user bandwidth every single time an update is issued. Furthermore, if Debian had had a policy of keeping init files apart from binary files, I doubt Devuan would have as much work as they eventually will when Debian goes all in on systemd. Only the init setups, and binaries linked to systemd would require systemd in their chain. At least, that's the way I see it. Feel welcome to disagree, it was just a brainstorm I was tossing about after considering that it was actually the System 5 maintenance resolution that crippled Debian, not systemd itself. The lack of any promise for System 5 is why we are here. Cheers! t.j. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
On Sun, 1 Mar 2015, T.J. Duchene wrote: On Sun, 2015-03-01 at 21:12 +0100, Philip Lacroix wrote: As other members have already pointed out, this is not a fair comparison. Perhaps. The reasons I made the comparison are: a) All of them have a dependency chain so interwoven and complex that they become non-trivial to remove. You literally cannot have a Debian/Devuan system without things like Perl or Python installed. The perl-base package pre-depends on libc6 and dpkg. And nothing else. The python2.7-minimal package depends on libpython2.7-minimal and zlib1g and pre-depends on libc6. The libpython2.7-minimal package has no depends or pre-depends. This does not look "interwoven and complex" to me. You need a C library, you need dpkg, and you need zlib, all of which are perfectly reasonable things to expect from a bare-bones Linux system. b) The software written in either language have complex module dependency chains. Install something like MailScanner, and you will install a dozen Perl modules as well as a requirement. You can write programs in Perl or Python that do not depend on any modules that are not installed in the base Perl and Python packages. c) In both languages, modules are usually something of a "black art" and notorious for being unreliable at unexpected times. Are you claiming that perl's module system does not always work as expected? Or just that some perl modules are poorly-written? In my experience, while you can generally expect things like the Perl core language to act reliably,you can't expect the same of the rest of the Perl ecosystem to do the same. The QA simply is not there. Not to mention that all of this can massively impact performance. This reads like FUD to me. Yes, it's possible to write Perl modules. Like anything else, it's possible to do slipshod work. Why are you trying to paint this as a *bad* thing? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Beginning of Devuan Dmenu Howto
Hi all, In a previous thread I discussed the usefulness and productivity of using dmenu in parallel with the hierarchical menu. I'm about 1/4 done, all of it dmenu general and not specific to Devuan, because I still don't know how Devuan's dmenu package will look. Anyway, you can see what's there so far at https://git.devuan.org/devuan-doc/manuals/wikis/how-to-use-dmenu-in-devuan SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] XFCE 4.12
Evening! Just wanted to shout out that tonight I compiled the new XFCE 4.12 released yesterday. Like Inigo Montoya in the Princess Bride: I hate waiting... There are some nice improvements in there, and I would definitely recommend it over the version that Devuan is likely to inherit from Debian Jesse, now that Jesse is frozen. The window manager itself is much improved with vsync w/ blank support, which makes a huge difference if you do anything related to video, which is basically anything. No tearing! Yay. There is also finally decent support for multiple monitors. There are a lot of other additions to functionality. t.j. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Beginning of Devuan Dmenu Howto
> On March 2, 2015 at 12:07 AM Steve Litt wrote: > > > Hi all, > > In a previous thread I discussed the usefulness and productivity of > using dmenu in parallel with the hierarchical menu. I'm about 1/4 done, > all of it dmenu general and not specific to Devuan, because I still > don't know how Devuan's dmenu package will look. Does dmenu act without me pressing Enter? I'm wondering what happens when I make a typo that happens to match the name of a program I never heard of. Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
On 03/01/2015 05:56 PM, Tor Myklebust wrote: The perl-base package pre-depends on libc6 and dpkg. And nothing else. I was not referring to all the software that depends on them when using Debian/Devuan. I've never believed that they make good choice for a required component. Frankly, I've also believe that interpreted languages should never be used for anything other than a teaching tool. If you must use something like that, at least use something that supports JIT to native code. You can write programs in Perl or Python that do not depend on any modules that are not installed in the base Perl and Python packages. I never suggested otherwise. In fact, I went out of my way to say that the community attitude of overuse and the extensions specifically were the problem, not the core. c) In both languages, modules are usually something of a "black art" and notorious for being unreliable at unexpected times. Are you claiming that perl's module system does not always work as expected? Or just that some perl modules are poorly-written? My remarks about Perl stem from poor QA in many Perl modules, and issues with the community/CPAN. In my experience, while you can generally expect things like the Perl core language to act reliably,you can't expect the same of the rest of the Perl ecosystem to do the same. The QA simply is not there. Not to mention that all of this can massively impact performance. This reads like FUD to me. Yes, it's possible to write Perl modules. Like anything else, it's possible to do slipshod work. Why are you trying to paint this as a *bad* thing? Just because my opinions may not be conventional, does not mean that I am "painting" anything. Personally, I think you missed the crux of what I was trying to say about the piling one layer of interpreted software, one abstraction, on top of another. It hardly matters though. I said my piece. You're certainly welcome to read it however you like. I said what was on my mind, and you are free to make your own judgements. I'm not offended in any case. So you don't agree. Good for you! =) That means that you gave it some thought. t.j. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
On 03/02/2015 12:16 AM, T.J. Duchene wrote: I was not referring to all the software that depends on them when using Debian/Devuan. *I was referring to all the software that depends on them when using Debian/Devuan. * Bad editing on my part. Mea Culpa. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] XFCE 4.12
I wonder - is it possible to mix 4.12 components with 4.10 ones? If yes, we could backport only user-visible parts (xfwm4, Thunar, xfce4-panel, etc') to keep maintenance costs down. On Sun, 01 Mar 2015 23:24:49 -0600 "T.J. Duchene" wrote: > Evening! > > Just wanted to shout out that tonight I compiled the new XFCE 4.12 > released yesterday. Like Inigo Montoya in the Princess Bride: I hate > waiting... > > There are some nice improvements in there, and I would definitely > recommend it over the version that Devuan is likely to inherit from > Debian Jesse, now that Jesse is frozen. > > The window manager itself is much improved with vsync w/ blank support, > which makes a huge difference if you do anything related to video, which > is basically anything. No tearing! Yay. There is also finally decent > support for multiple monitors. > > There are a lot of other additions to functionality. > > > t.j. > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Dima Krasner, dimakrasner.com pgptQ6kHIpljL.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] XFCE 4.12
On 03/02/2015 01:01 AM, Dima Krasner wrote: I wonder - is it possible to mix 4.12 components with 4.10 ones? If yes, we could backport only user-visible parts (xfwm4, Thunar, xfce4-panel, etc') to keep maintenance costs down. My first response to that is probably "Sorry, but no." While the two share commonalities, they also probably have differing interlinking code between desktop components. If you swap one, you would be wise to simply do change them all out. I'm not trying to make a presumption to say this, but I think that a desktop Devuan should, when dealing with workstations, standardize on XFCE. What people on the desktop really want is a polished working Linux that does what they need. Tailor every app on the distribution toward that end, even if that means tossing out a few programs with duplicate functionality or redoing a GUI. XFCE is by far the most lightweight of the major desktop offerings. It's certainly far more stable, and less crash prone than Plasma, and is not a totally dysfunctional, simplified, systemd-ified, CPU sucking pig like Gnome. It wouldn't mean that you have to toss out the best of the Qt/KDE apps,. Just set the style to GTK+ by default, and they integrate with XFCE very nicely. That way you can completely avoid Plasma altogether. As for Gnome apps, to be perfectly blunt, I have yet to see a number of Gnome 3 apps that I cannot live without. Virtually every decent Gnome app worth having still uses GTK2, with very few exceptions. I use a few things like virt-manager for the sake of convenience, but that could be overcome. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
On Mon, Mar 02, 2015 at 12:18:56AM -0600, T.J. Duchene wrote: > > On 03/02/2015 12:16 AM, T.J. Duchene wrote: > >> > >I was not referring to all the software that depends on them when > >using Debian/Devuan. > > *I was referring to all the software that depends on them when using > Debian/Devuan. * > > Bad editing on my part. Mea Culpa. Well guys, we need be honest on this point: it's not just a matter of programming languages. If you would like to blame "the modern programming languages" for giving the possibility of having several layers of abstraction, then Perl and Python are definitely the worst examples, since they date back to the late 80s and the early 90s, respectively, and cannot be considered "modern" at all. So the problem is not the language. The truth is that in the last 30 years we have started doing millions new things with computers, and these new needs have unavoidably brought new software and new libraries. Despite I like to keep my programs small, simple and reliable, I believe that it is not possible to set limits to the creativity of coders: let them use all the freedom they need. Unless they use this freedom to break my toys apart, in which case I get nervous ;) I personally don't see the massive usage of Perl or Python *per se* as a threat to the reliability of the OS. I think that bad programming habits in C or C++ are even more dangerous than good Perlisms, as the SSH heartbleed saga has recently shown. My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
