Re: [Dng] Combatting revisionist history
On 26 February 2015 01:21:07 CET, Neo Futur wrote: >>> That leaves the 2% benefit of cgroups, whose benefit boils down to, >and anyway openrc supports cgroups ;) >( my 2 cents : and should be used in future versions of devuan ;) I agree with this and hope OpenRC keeps supporting Linux without introducing BSD specific deps. nice thread btw, thanks golinux for posting! reading DNG is being a pleasure I often indulge, despite my time for reading is very scarce. in other threads there are also good suggestions for desktop software (now also WDM) and I hope someone can soon collect them into a summary on our gitlab wiki. Admittedly, developers active on Devuan at present are not yet busy on the desktop usage side of things... good to keep the outcomes of such discussions for later. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] idea for discussion: why 1 dbus [long e-mail]
On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 17:02:42 +0100 Godefridus Daalmans wrote: > Well, I have an idea for a discussion about "re-architecting" Linux, > however it is very likely that this is just my lack of understanding > speaking: > > I am aware that task #1 is providing Devuan Jessie (without systemd), > and that is already enough work. > > Personally I consider task #2 to do a little discovery and > documenting of what kinds of "middle-ware" I have on my Linux box and > how it all interacts (things like: what is > akonadi/nepomuk/colord/avahi and do I need all of that). My personal belief is that akonadi and nepomuk are every bit as evil as systemd. But that's not the main thrust of your post... > So I have a weird question for discussion, to study the *design* of > dbus together on this mailinglist with you lot who are probably a lot > smarter than me. I think that's a good idea, either on this mailing list or some sort of DNG SIG list. > > Please be gentle and provide arguments if you think I'm talking > crap :-) Alright, I'll be gentle. I HATE YOUR GUTS. Just kidding :-) > > > Why is there 1 dbus program (instead of 2 or 3)? > > > I have not looked at the source, but from the freedesktop.org > documentation I learned that dbus is responsible for the following > tasks in modern user-space Linux: > > 1. IPC between user programs in a GUI user session context (dbus > --session) > > 2. one-way system -> GUI session notification of events (dbus > --system), e.g. when a USB stick is inserted > > 3. one-way GUI session -> system root-privilege system commands (dbus > --system), e.g. suspend, shutdown, reboot My impression of dbus is dbus is to your OS as a global variable is to a Python program. Everybody reads it, everybody writes it, that's how everybody communicates, and if somebody gets it wrong, the results are very hard to diagnose. By the way, I try never to use global variables in my programs. Dbus afficianados will counter that dbus has addressing schemes so that process A can tell dbus it's only interested in messages from process K and process M, and that process A must name recipients when posting to dbus. OK, fine, it's more like a global object in a Python program, but things can still go wrong. And if somebody maliciously sends to dbus... I see where your 3 way division could cut down on dbus vulnerability. Theoretically, having a field in a dbus send identifying which of the 3 the send was meant to be would do the same thing, I think. [snip] > Why does this need to be a complicated and error prone message bus? > Why not just an executable? Describe it for the LSB and be done with > it: dbus_system shutdown = shutdown, dbus_system powersave = order > the CPU to slow down, etc. The preceding is way beyond my level of knowledge. I've always tried to avoid using dbus. Like you said, a discussion would be interesting. SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Logind alternative (spoiler: Consolekit fork)
Hi Everyone, I was getting desparate thinking there will be no alternative to systemd's logind. I also saw the consolekit was depreciated for quite a while. Alas! I was happy to find this just now: https://github.com/ConsoleKit2/ConsoleKit2 I would be happy to see this packaged for devuan. Cheers, Oz ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
On 02/24/2015 09:54 PM, Vernon Geiszler wrote: > >> > I think this question goes together with the badge or logo > question. It > >>> must go beyond "sans-systemd"; > > >> it is more about principles. Let's list some: > > >> > >> > - freedom of choice, > >> > - interchangealility of solutions to a given need, > >> > - reduce inter-dependencies to the strict minimum > > >> > >> > Don't know if KISS goes into details, but maybe it could > inspire the > >> > logo. > >> > >> KISS Linux? > > >Unless the band has an objection to the use of its trademark. > >Unlikely, since we're in a different business entirely. > > >Unless, of course, we choose to use the band's logo as well. > > My first vision was of the lips from Rocky Horror Show kissing Tux the > penguin. > > Vernon I found this image on the web: http://tux.crystalxp.net/png/kros753-kiss-the-demon-2286.png It's a good mix between KISS and Linux! If you like it, I can ask the guys from CrystalXP.net if it can be used for Devuan. Cheers, Anthony > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Logo survey
Of course. Should I make that link public on this list? Thanks. On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 8:21 PM, Go Linux wrote: > On Wed, 2/25/15, Linuxito wrote: > > > Subject: [Dng] Devuan Logo survey > > To: dng@lists.dyne.org > > Date: Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 10:10 AM > > > > Hi people, > > > > As you may know, we have been collecting logo proposals for > > Devuan in the Without Systemd Wiki: > > > > http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Category:Logo > > > > Now I have created a new (more graphical) survey, to give a > > vote to your favorite logo: > > > > https://surveymonkey.com/s/Q7HV9GZ > > > > Remember this is not an authoritative poll and intends to > > help the design team to make a choice on what we have at > > present. > > > > This is important because: 1- we cannot trust 100% the > > survey tools; and 2- we have decided to not select things by > > majority voting, but by a specialized workgroup. > > > > Greetings, > > Emiliano. > > > > > Thanks for setting this up. Is there a URL where we can see the results > in real time? > > golinux > > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Logo survey
Hi Anto, I like the same logo too. If you check out the logo submissions page on Without Systemd Wiki ( http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Category:Logo), you'll see that there is no corresponding "logo with text" (as I called it) version. Maybe we can ask the author to create a text version? Have a nice day, Emiliano. On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 7:08 AM, Linuxito wrote: > Of course. Should I make that link public on this list? > > Thanks. > > On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 8:21 PM, Go Linux wrote: > >> On Wed, 2/25/15, Linuxito wrote: >> >> > Subject: [Dng] Devuan Logo survey >> > To: dng@lists.dyne.org >> > Date: Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 10:10 AM >> > >> > Hi people, >> > >> > As you may know, we have been collecting logo proposals for >> > Devuan in the Without Systemd Wiki: >> > >> > http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Category:Logo >> > >> > Now I have created a new (more graphical) survey, to give a >> > vote to your favorite logo: >> > >> > https://surveymonkey.com/s/Q7HV9GZ >> > >> > Remember this is not an authoritative poll and intends to >> > help the design team to make a choice on what we have at >> > present. >> > >> > This is important because: 1- we cannot trust 100% the >> > survey tools; and 2- we have decided to not select things by >> > majority voting, but by a specialized workgroup. >> > >> > Greetings, >> > Emiliano. >> >> >> >> >> Thanks for setting this up. Is there a URL where we can see the results >> in real time? >> >> golinux >> >> > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Combatting revisionist history
Le 25/02/2015 22:11, Go Linux a écrit : This excellent analysis of the systemd debacle was just posted over on FDN. Should be required reading IMO. Enjoy! http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=120652&p=570371 golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng Thanks Go Linux for this post. I didn't follow thhe battle inside Debian; therefore it's interesting to read a point of view on the story. I like the jokes about the Fork posted in the replies. I see Devuan on the clear side of the Fork. About init in general, and first of all about systemd, I always thought there was an abuse in the terminology and in the implementation, which I would like to explain below: Well, there are two pecularities in process #1: a) it is the first process started by the kernel, and, as such, it is in charge of starting all the necessary services. b) it adopts the orphans These two things are very different and I am amazed that one can call "init" the process in charge to adopt the orphans and eventually re-launch them, and moreover shut down the system. Init proper, when it has finished starting the system, should exec() another application, in charge of maintaining it alive; and this other should exec() yet another one for shutdown. There is no reason to put all these delicate jobs in only one application. exec() does not change the pid. The Fork be with Devuan, yeah! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Logo survey
On Thu, 26 Feb 2015, Linuxito wrote: >Of course. Should I make that link public on this list? perhaps not, just mail the pass to golinux waters are calmer, but trolls and vandalism is still behind the corner, we cannot be too lax on our infrastructure. by the time the systemd hooligans will realize that Devuan is a serious project that will deliver, we'll have to face some fights I guess... "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." Mahatma Gandhi and as of today they are still laughing.. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Logo survey
Thanks Jaromil, We outpassed the 100 responses limit in the survey (122 actually) and sadly surveymonkey will only show you that 100 (unless you pay). I'm going to send the link to golinux. Have a great day. Emiliano. On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 7:58 AM, Jaromil wrote: > On Thu, 26 Feb 2015, Linuxito wrote: > > >Of course. Should I make that link public on this list? > > perhaps not, just mail the pass to golinux > > waters are calmer, but trolls and vandalism is still behind the corner, > we cannot be too lax on our infrastructure. by the time the systemd > hooligans will realize that Devuan is a serious project that will > deliver, we'll have to face some fights I guess... > > "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then > you win." Mahatma Gandhi > > and as of today they are still laughing.. > > > ciao > > > > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Logo survey
On Thu, 26 Feb 2015, Linuxito wrote: >Thanks Jaromil, > >We outpassed the 100 responses limit in the survey (122 actually) >and sadly surveymonkey will only show you that 100 (unless you >pay). we do have funds to pay that in case the design workgroup deems it as a useful way to collect feedback. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Logo survey
If this is something we are going to be doing more often, I can deploy https://opinahq.com/ or https://www.limesurvey.org/en/ (or whatever else people prefer) On 26 February 2015 at 13:54, Jaromil wrote: > On Thu, 26 Feb 2015, Linuxito wrote: > > >Thanks Jaromil, > > > >We outpassed the 100 responses limit in the survey (122 actually) > >and sadly surveymonkey will only show you that 100 (unless you > >pay). > > we do have funds to pay that in case the design workgroup deems it as a > useful way to collect feedback. > > ciao > > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Logo survey
I tried limesurvey once, works great. That would be great. On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 9:14 AM, Martijn Dekkers < devuan-li...@dekkers.org.uk> wrote: > If this is something we are going to be doing more often, I can deploy > https://opinahq.com/ or https://www.limesurvey.org/en/ (or whatever else > people prefer) > > On 26 February 2015 at 13:54, Jaromil wrote: > >> On Thu, 26 Feb 2015, Linuxito wrote: >> >> >Thanks Jaromil, >> > >> >We outpassed the 100 responses limit in the survey (122 actually) >> >and sadly surveymonkey will only show you that 100 (unless you >> >pay). >> >> we do have funds to pay that in case the design workgroup deems it as a >> useful way to collect feedback. >> >> ciao >> >> >> >> ___ >> Dng mailing list >> Dng@lists.dyne.org >> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng >> > > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 8:15 AM, Anthony Scemama wrote: > I found this image on the web: > > http://tux.crystalxp.net/png/kros753-kiss-the-demon-2286.png > > It's a good mix between KISS and Linux! > If you like it, I can ask the guys from CrystalXP.net if it can be used for > Devuan. I don't want, it's ugly as hell. It's like robocop meets lady gaga ate tux... Obviously my opinion. Cheers, NUno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Logo survey
On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 12:14 PM, Martijn Dekkers wrote: > If this is something we are going to be doing more often, I can deploy > https://opinahq.com/ or https://www.limesurvey.org/en/ (or whatever else > people prefer) If there's a way to make sure each user only votes once, it would be interesting to get the general population involved. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Logo survey
who are "the general population"? On 26 February 2015 at 14:59, Nuno Magalhães wrote: > On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 12:14 PM, Martijn Dekkers > wrote: > > If this is something we are going to be doing more often, I can deploy > > https://opinahq.com/ or https://www.limesurvey.org/en/ (or whatever else > > people prefer) > > If there's a way to make sure each user only votes once, it would be > interesting to get the general population involved. > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Logo survey
The survey was configured to allow only one vote for IP address. On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 9:59 AM, Nuno Magalhães wrote: > On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 12:14 PM, Martijn Dekkers > wrote: > > If this is something we are going to be doing more often, I can deploy > > https://opinahq.com/ or https://www.limesurvey.org/en/ (or whatever else > > people prefer) > > If there's a way to make sure each user only votes once, it would be > interesting to get the general population involved. > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Logo survey
On 26/02/15 14:15, Martijn Dekkers wrote: who are "the general population"? I guess that would be the people who are really desperate to have Debian without systemd and its related components, like me :D ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Logo survey
On 02/26/15 10:24, Linuxito wrote: > The survey was configured to allow only one vote for IP address. > *** Which allows me, a Tor user, to reload the page and vote again. When will people realize that IP address != person? What about people sharing a proxy? "Sorry, you already voted!" "N!" Anyway, jaromil, please don't waste a cent to allow a larger survey. This is pointless and would do more harm than good to waste supporters money on bikeshedding. None of the proposed logos will be used for reasons explained earlier: they are mostly rough ideas, directions. And we probably won't use any before 1.0, as in: subject to change. If some proposal gets consensus, we'll see. Martijn seems to have a solution for polls, let's do that instead. FWIW. The logo threads are multiplying: it shows the impatience is growing. What I'd like to see instead is a focus on a real issue we have, which is shipping desktop background designs. This is not a unique item, so people can have the distro shipped with the background they'd like to use. Isn't that more interesting? == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Logo survey
On 26/02/15 15:50, hellekin wrote: The logo threads are multiplying: it shows the impatience is growing. What I'd like to see instead is a focus on a real issue we have, which is shipping desktop background designs. This is not a unique item, so people can have the distro shipped with the background they'd like to use. Isn't that more interesting? Yes. That would be interesting. But we would need a logo on the background, wouldn't we? Or are we going to use what ever backgrounds that are currently available in Debian with Debian logo? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Logo survey
Well, that's the only possibility that tool has to offer for free. I know its limitations. I just wanted to help someway. Sorry for the inconvenience. On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 11:50 AM, hellekin wrote: > On 02/26/15 10:24, Linuxito wrote: > > The survey was configured to allow only one vote for IP address. > > > *** Which allows me, a Tor user, to reload the page and vote again. > When will people realize that IP address != person? What about people > sharing a proxy? "Sorry, you already voted!" "N!" > > Anyway, jaromil, please don't waste a cent to allow a larger survey. > This is pointless and would do more harm than good to waste supporters > money on bikeshedding. None of the proposed logos will be used for > reasons explained earlier: they are mostly rough ideas, directions. And > we probably won't use any before 1.0, as in: subject to change. If some > proposal gets consensus, we'll see. > > Martijn seems to have a solution for polls, let's do that instead. FWIW. > > The logo threads are multiplying: it shows the impatience is growing. > What I'd like to see instead is a focus on a real issue we have, which > is shipping desktop background designs. This is not a unique item, so > people can have the distro shipped with the background they'd like to > use. Isn't that more interesting? > > == > hk > > -- > _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom > (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Logo survey
On Thu, 26 Feb 2015, hellekin wrote: > On 02/26/15 10:24, Linuxito wrote: > > The survey was configured to allow only one vote for IP address. > > > *** Which allows me, a Tor user, to reload the page and vote again. > When will people realize that IP address != person? What about people > sharing a proxy? "Sorry, you already voted!" "N!" yep that's obvious to many I guess :^) that's why is called poll or survey not vote. > Anyway, jaromil, please don't waste a cent to allow a larger survey. OK > Martijn seems to have a solution for polls, let's do that instead. > FWIW. yes that is a kind offer. I do believe surveys help to choose things the LEAN way, keeping in touch with the general sense, so yes Martijn we'll use it. > The logo threads are multiplying: it shows the impatience is growing. yes. can we then choose a placeholder logo for now? so that it can be used without much fuzz. Loving this one by Gravis http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/File:Spiral_double_3.jpg > What I'd like to see instead is a focus on a real issue we have, which > is shipping desktop background designs. This is not a unique item, so > people can have the distro shipped with the background they'd like to > use. Isn't that more interesting? Is likely not going to be the most interesting thing in Devuan, but anyway I wish we tag this process soon with some black and white minimalist design to be used, I really hope for that. Having different things to try in the Alpha when ready is also a good idea, base-desktop is the package to start with. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] simple backgrounds
On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 04:05:40PM +0100, Anto wrote: > On 26/02/15 15:50, hellekin wrote: > >The logo threads are multiplying: it shows the impatience is growing. > >What I'd like to see instead is a focus on a real issue we have, which > >is shipping desktop background designs. This is not a unique item, so > >people can have the distro shipped with the background they'd like to > >use. Isn't that more interesting? > > Yes. That would be interesting. But we would need a logo on the > background, wouldn't we? Or are we going to use what ever > backgrounds that are currently available in Debian with Debian logo? I don't need a desktop background design. I'd be completely happy with a blank screen. I might possibly want to tweak the background colour, for visual pleasance behind my windows. Let those who care choose their own pictures and install them. We specifically don't need Debian logos. I don't mind if we do the same for splash screens during booting. Don't really need them. Don't want them if they get in the way of seeing what it's doing while it boots. And don't want Devuan deelopers to waste time on them if it means delaying our release. After a usable release, we'll have time for such matters. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] simple backgrounds
+1 hendrik May I suggest some timeline milestones here (which I know is around to the Devs). I for one would look forword to a working base install with no DE. That could be a alpha 0.XX milestone. Just saying ... As golinux says, may the fork be with you On 02/26/2015 12:04 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 04:05:40PM +0100, Anto wrote: On 26/02/15 15:50, hellekin wrote: The logo threads are multiplying: it shows the impatience is growing. What I'd like to see instead is a focus on a real issue we have, which is shipping desktop background designs. This is not a unique item, so people can have the distro shipped with the background they'd like to use. Isn't that more interesting? Yes. That would be interesting. But we would need a logo on the background, wouldn't we? Or are we going to use what ever backgrounds that are currently available in Debian with Debian logo? I don't need a desktop background design. I'd be completely happy with a blank screen. I might possibly want to tweak the background colour, for visual pleasance behind my windows. Let those who care choose their own pictures and install them. We specifically don't need Debian logos. I don't mind if we do the same for splash screens during booting. Don't really need them. Don't want them if they get in the way of seeing what it's doing while it boots. And don't want Devuan deelopers to waste time on them if it means delaying our release. After a usable release, we'll have time for such matters. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] simple backgrounds
On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 12:19:05PM -0500, etech3 wrote: > +1 hendrik > > May I suggest some timeline milestones here (which I know is around > to the Devs). I for one would look forword to a working base install > with no DE. That could be a alpha 0.XX milestone. Do you meen no X? no window manager? or just no fancy desktop? Initally I would be happy with X and a minimal window manager. Worked that way in the 80's. Could work that way again. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] simple backgrounds
On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 12:43:50PM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 12:19:05PM -0500, etech3 wrote: > > +1 hendrik > > > > May I suggest some timeline milestones here (which I know is around > > to the Devs). I for one would look forword to a working base install > > with no DE. That could be a alpha 0.XX milestone. > > Do you meen no X? no window manager? or just no fancy desktop? > > Initally I would be happy with X and a minimal window manager. Worked > that way in the 80's. Could work that way again. Most of what I do can be done in a few xterms on screen. Of course it should nowadays be a few unicode xterms rather than the old ASCII xterms, but that's feasible nowadays. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] simple backgrounds
On Thu, 26 Feb 2015, etech3 wrote: > +1 hendrik yes, we will not cover up boot with framebuffer stuff for sure. so to say Devuan is sugar-free and doesn't makes your computer fat :^) > May I suggest some timeline milestones here (which I know is around > to the Devs). I for one would look forword to a working base install > with no DE. That could be a alpha 0.XX milestone. well, its sad if one does apt-get install xfce4 and systemd comes in. however, DE-free then the pre-alpha valentine is already it. perhaps we need to remove the Debian branding. the CI and package repository also is close to be ready and there is a loginkit build in it :^) http://packages.devuan.org/devuan/ right now the progress is in nextime's hands with the git structure https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-maintainers/wikis/GitPackages and after this and some documentation is in place on how to add packages to jenkins, we can start spinning all pkgs-base into our repo and have the alpha ready :^) ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] simple backgrounds
On 26/02/15 18:04, Hendrik Boom wrote: And don't want Devuan deelopers to waste time on them if it means delaying our release. After a usable release, we'll have time for such matters. -- hendrik Hello Hendrik, I agree with what you mentioned as the highest priority is to get the first version of Devuan being released. I am quite sure that in the next 6 months or so after Devuan is being released, I will not need any logo, background or even splash screen. As my first priority is to switch my 2 Xen VPS' from Debian into Devuan. I will test that first on my backup NAS server, which is now just lying around gathering dust. Having said that, perhaps I can use this old server to test Devuan and report any problems. However, logo is quite important as it is all about identity. I think Devuan needs that. Don't you think? There is no harm in discussing it now. Some good artistic ideas could come out of this discussion. So turning this kind of discussions down, would not help getting those ideas. Kind regards, Anto ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] simple backgrounds
On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 07:22:15PM +0100, Anto wrote: > On 26/02/15 18:04, Hendrik Boom wrote: > >And don't want Devuan deelopers to waste time on them if it means > >delaying our release. After a usable release, we'll have time for > >such matters. > > > >-- hendrik > > Hello Hendrik, > > I agree with what you mentioned as the highest priority is to get > the first version of Devuan being released. > > I am quite sure that in the next 6 months or so after Devuan is > being released, I will not need any logo, background or even splash > screen. As my first priority is to switch my 2 Xen VPS' from Debian > into Devuan. I will test that first on my backup NAS server, which > is now just lying around gathering dust. Having said that, perhaps I > can use this old server to test Devuan and report any problems. > > However, logo is quite important as it is all about identity. I > think Devuan needs that. Don't you think? There is no harm in > discussing it now. Some good artistic ideas could come out of this > discussion. So turning this kind of discussions down, would not help > getting those ideas. Of course! Keep talking! It's just that the conversation was getting elaborate in terms of implementation. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] simple backgrounds
I agree with you. We need identity, and more important, we need a brand. Although I know nothing about marketing, I think a logo it's the most important component of a brand. It will help us make our distribution known by others, it will bring contributions, donations, etc. So I believe choosing a logo, at least a temporary one, it's something important. >From Wikipedia: "Marketing is communicating the value of a product, service or brand to customers, for the purpose of promoting or selling that product, service, or brand." We need to "sell" Devuan to get more help and let our community grow. On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Anto wrote: > On 26/02/15 18:04, Hendrik Boom wrote: > >> And don't want Devuan deelopers to waste time on them if it means >> delaying our release. After a usable release, we'll have time for >> such matters. >> >> -- hendrik >> > > Hello Hendrik, > > I agree with what you mentioned as the highest priority is to get the > first version of Devuan being released. > > I am quite sure that in the next 6 months or so after Devuan is being > released, I will not need any logo, background or even splash screen. As my > first priority is to switch my 2 Xen VPS' from Debian into Devuan. I will > test that first on my backup NAS server, which is now just lying around > gathering dust. Having said that, perhaps I can use this old server to test > Devuan and report any problems. > > However, logo is quite important as it is all about identity. I think > Devuan needs that. Don't you think? There is no harm in discussing it now. > Some good artistic ideas could come out of this discussion. So turning this > kind of discussions down, would not help getting those ideas. > > Kind regards, > > Anto > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] simple backgrounds
On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 04:03:42PM -0300, Linuxito wrote: > I agree with you. We need identity, and more important, we need a brand. > > Although I know nothing about marketing, I think a logo it's the most > important component of a brand. It will help us make our distribution known > by others, it will bring contributions, donations, etc. > > So I believe choosing a logo, at least a temporary one, it's something > important. > > From Wikipedia: "Marketing is communicating the value of a product, service > or brand to customers, for the purpose of promoting or selling that > product, service, or brand." > > We need to "sell" Devuan to get more help and let our community grow. > Well, I agree about the necessity of having a logo, but there is no point into having a great brand without anything concrete behind it, IMHO. I believe that the most important thing at the moment is to have a working Devuan, not having a nice logo for it, which is something that will become important afterwards, when Devuan is stable and when it has a user base. People do not choose distributions for their logo. Otherwise I would have steyed with RedHat, back in the days... My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] simple backgrounds
On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 07:13:38PM +, KatolaZ wrote: [cut] > > > Well, I agree about the necessity of having a logo, but there is no > point into having a great brand without anything concrete behind it, > IMHO. I believe that the most important thing at the moment is to have > a working Devuan, not having a nice logo for it, which is something > that will become important afterwards, when Devuan is stable and when > it has a user base. > > People do not choose distributions for their logo. Otherwise I would > have steyed with RedHat, back in the days... > Just to support my point, Debian has a great logo, but this is what is currently happening to the users of Jessie, thanks to the systemd-nonsense: https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/02/msg00013.html HND KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] simple backgrounds
On Thu, 2/26/15, Linuxito wrote: Subject: Re: [Dng] simple backgrounds To: "Anto" Cc: "dng" Date: Thursday, February 26, 2015, 1:03 PM > I agree with you. We need identity, and more important, we need a brand. > > Although I know nothing about marketing, I think a logo it's the most > important component of a brand. It will help us > > make our distribution > known by others, it will bring contributions, donations, etc. > > So I believe choosing a logo, at least a temporary one, it's something > important. > > It could be confusing and a market disadvantage if the logo used for the alpha doesn't have a resemblance to the one that will finally represent Devuan. To date there has been almost no feedback from the VUAs (who will make the final decision) on the direction(s) they would prefer. That's understandable as they have more important work to do ATM. But without their direction, the design team is a bit adrift in still waters. The best solution would probably be to use a text identity until the graphics get sorted after the alpha is released. For the record . . . I submitted a background proposal using a photo taken by a friend in Antarctica a few years ago. http://www.saynotogmos.org/ss/penguins/trio.png Be aware though . . . those are Gentoo penguins! golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] A New Video and Text I came across.
On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 22:48:12 -0500 Clarke Sideroad wrote: > Not mine. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYpnbbONrKw > > Clarke Oh my gosh, that guy (he calls himself Fireicer Cooper) really is in love with himself. I thought it was just a summer thing. Just gotta be amazed when this guy suggests *yet another abstraction level* to unite systemd, openrc, and sysvinit (he conveniently leaves out all the rest). I can't even tell whether he has an opinion, or what that opinion is, but he's a perpetual motion machine mouth hooked to an empty brain. By the way, I did a 10 minute search on this guy, found no resume, no authoritative material, but lots and lots of comments on other peoples' stuff. With friends like Fireicer Cooper, we don't need enemies. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Logind alternative (spoiler: Consolekit fork)
On Tue, 2015-02-24 at 22:40 +0100, Oz Nahum Tiram wrote: > Hi Everyone, > > > > I was getting desparate thinking there will be no alternative to > systemd's logind. > > I also saw the consolekit was depreciated for quite a while. Alas! I > was happy to > > find this just now: > > https://github.com/ConsoleKit2/ConsoleKit2 > > > I would be happy to see this packaged for devuan. > > > > Cheers, > > Oz > To quote the original Star Trek: "There are always possibilities." There are shims available also, as well as two separate efforts to replace systemd completely while trapping its calls: systemdbsd and uselessd. Personally, I like the name of the last one, it has a nice ring to it. he only reason that people are pitching a fit is because the major distributors want to use "the easy way out" - which happens to be systemd right now. In a few years, something else fashionable will come along. Systemd-login, and indeed, all of Lennart and Siever's fiefdom "systemd-dom" is merely an annoyance, nothing more. t.j. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] simple backgrounds
On Thursday, 26 de February de 2015 17:54:01 Jaromil escribió: > On Thu, 26 Feb 2015, etech3 wrote: > > +1 hendrik > > yes, we will not cover up boot with framebuffer stuff for sure. > > so to say > > Devuan is sugar-free and doesn't makes your computer fat :^) I want the freedom to take my Devuan with sugar! Now seriously: some things are important, and some are prescindible. I'm a heavy user of text consoles, but I do so in a DE because I like some things that DE gives me: a browser, a PDF viewer for all the documentation I need to read, camera and USB automounting, Eclipse, gitg and so on. While I use not to be able to see my desktop background, it's there, and I'd like to have a Devuan one. I volunteer to create some backgrounds, quite fast, once we have a logo. Preferrably a logo and colour palette (but the pair of darl blue and orange works quite well). Regards er Envite -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? OpenPGP key: 1586 50C8 7DBF B050 DE62 EA12 70B4 00F3 EEC7 C372 Spiral galaxies always have at least TWO arms. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] simple backgrounds
Le 26/02/2015 18:04, Hendrik Boom a écrit : On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 04:05:40PM +0100, Anto wrote: On 26/02/15 15:50, hellekin wrote: The logo threads are multiplying: it shows the impatience is growing. What I'd like to see instead is a focus on a real issue we have, which is shipping desktop background designs. This is not a unique item, so people can have the distro shipped with the background they'd like to use. Isn't that more interesting? Yes. That would be interesting. But we would need a logo on the background, wouldn't we? Or are we going to use what ever backgrounds that are currently available in Debian with Debian logo? I don't need a desktop background design. I'd be completely happy with a blank screen. I might possibly want to tweak the background colour, for visual pleasance behind my windows. Let those who care choose their own pictures and install them. We specifically don't need Debian logos. I don't mind if we do the same for splash screens during booting. Don't really need them. Don't want them if they get in the way of seeing what it's doing while it boots. And don't want Devuan deelopers to waste time on them if it means delaying our release. After a usable release, we'll have time for such matters. -- hendrik Aren't there wallpapers provided by the DE's, eg. xfce4? In this case, it isn't usefull to provide anything else. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] A New Video and Text I came across.
On 02/26/15 14:36, Steve Litt wrote: On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 22:48:12 -0500 Clarke Sideroad wrote: Not mine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYpnbbONrKw Clarke Oh my gosh, that guy (he calls himself Fireicer Cooper) really is in love with himself. I thought it was just a summer thing. Just gotta be amazed when this guy suggests *yet another abstraction level* to unite systemd, openrc, and sysvinit (he conveniently leaves out all the rest). I can't even tell whether he has an opinion, or what that opinion is, but he's a perpetual motion machine mouth hooked to an empty brain. By the way, I did a 10 minute search on this guy, found no resume, no authoritative material, but lots and lots of comments on other peoples' stuff. With friends like Fireicer Cooper, we don't need enemies. Hi Steve, I doubt his parents baptized him as Fireicer Cooper. The text is IMO pretty much to the point, agreed the audio presentation drags and rambles on and on. I gave him a thumbs up anyway, it's better than most of the YouTube rabid systemd fanboi crap put out to convince the already convinced. I think what he was trying to get across for was the complication and confusion caused by the lack of swap-ability of systemd and its components, while still trying to walk some middle ground. Agreed a further interface/abstraction layer to accomplish this interchange and enforce it on all potential interacting components would be insane almost as insane as the de facto forced adoption of systemd in the first place. In actual fact all this should have been handled by systemd and its ever increasing number of components to allow them to interoperate with the existing application infrastructure. This of course would have made the systemd based Linux operating system even more of a bloated POS and counter the cleanliness that was one of it's "get the foot in the door" selling points. If it had gone that way we wouldn't even be here. I think the way things are going with Devuan, Trios and the distros that have resisted systemd will get the point across. I'm sure the migration away from systemd will largely go unnoticed until it hits critical mass and by then nerds, geeks and the majority of Linux servers will be systemd free. Clarke P.S. Google thought the alias Clarke Sideroad was more acceptable for Google+ registration than my real name, I don't really exist except on maps. (-; ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Logo survey
> On 02/26/15 10:24, Linuxito wrote: >> The logo threads are multiplying: it shows the impatience is growing. I disagree. IMHO the logo threads show a lot of users like to chip in with their opinions. No harm there, and no impatience either. I believe rushed things tend to hit fans. Therefore, i'd rather wait longer and have a decent, stable(ish) alpha rather than having a cool looking breakage-prone thing tomorrow. I vote for Release when ready.™ >> What I'd like to see instead is a focus on a real issue we have, which >> is shipping desktop background designs. This is not a unique item, so >> people can have the distro shipped with the background they'd like to >> use. Isn't that more interesting? Nope. *To me*, it's neither a real issue nor is it interesting and along the same lines i don't give a rat's ass about the logo either (although i obviously do have aesthetic preferences and picked a logo from the poll). Since alpha's gonna ship with a minimalist DE, i'd go with a gradient/solid color background and focus developer time in real issues like removing systemd dependencies. I'd even be cool with no GUI in the alpha release, but i grok and support how a minimalist DE is a good compromise. On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 5:00 PM, Jaromil wrote: > Is likely not going to be the most interesting thing in Devuan, but > anyway I wish we tag this process soon with some black and white > minimalist design to be used, Prior to recent (at least in Debian) releases, Xorg came with the classic checkered monochrome pattern, i'm cool with that :) (Now it comes with a black background which is really moronic 'cos it leaves me wondering "Did --configure barf or is this the root window?"). My personal 2¢ Cheers, Nuno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] simple backgrounds
On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 7:42 PM, Go Linux wrote: > The best solution would probably be to use a text identity until the graphics > get sorted after the alpha is released. There's a certain project called hasciicam which can be used to create very nifty text logos... > For the record . . . I submitted a background proposal using a photo taken by > a friend in Antarctica a few years ago. > > http://www.saynotogmos.org/ss/penguins/trio.png Ha! There, a desktop background, problem solved. > Be aware though . . . those are Gentoo penguins! They're cute, they're penguins, beats having Linus' face as your background (IMHO). Cheers, Nuno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] simple backgrounds
> http://www.saynotogmos.org/ss/penguins/trio.png ha! it just needs words like "Linux: Strut your stuff" [?] --Gravis On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 2:42 PM, Go Linux wrote: > On Thu, 2/26/15, Linuxito wrote: > > Subject: Re: [Dng] simple backgrounds > To: "Anto" > Cc: "dng" > Date: Thursday, February 26, 2015, 1:03 PM > > > I agree with you. We need identity, and more important, we need a brand. > > > > Although I know nothing about marketing, I think a logo it's the most > important component of a brand. It will help us > > make our distribution > known by others, it will bring contributions, donations, etc. > > > > So I believe choosing a logo, at least a temporary one, it's something > important. > > > > > > > > It could be confusing and a market disadvantage if the logo used for the > alpha doesn't have a resemblance to the one that will finally represent > Devuan. To date there has been almost no feedback from the VUAs (who will > make the final decision) on the direction(s) they would prefer. That's > understandable as they have more important work to do ATM. But without > their direction, the design team is a bit adrift in still waters. The best > solution would probably be to use a text identity until the graphics get > sorted after the alpha is released. > > For the record . . . I submitted a background proposal using a photo taken > by a friend in Antarctica a few years ago. > > http://www.saynotogmos.org/ss/penguins/trio.png > > Be aware though . . . those are Gentoo penguins! > > golinux > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] simple backgrounds
On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 06:02:16PM -0500, Gravis wrote: > > http://www.saynotogmos.org/ss/penguins/trio.png > > ha! it just needs words like "Linux: Strut your stuff" [?] I thought of photoshopping in a jail out of which they are walking. > --Gravis -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] simple backgrounds
On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 10:09:50PM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote: > > Le 26/02/2015 18:04, Hendrik Boom a écrit : > >On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 04:05:40PM +0100, Anto wrote: > >>On 26/02/15 15:50, hellekin wrote: > >>>The logo threads are multiplying: it shows the impatience is growing. > >>>What I'd like to see instead is a focus on a real issue we have, which > >>>is shipping desktop background designs. This is not a unique item, so > >>>people can have the distro shipped with the background they'd like to > >>>use. Isn't that more interesting? > >>Yes. That would be interesting. But we would need a logo on the > >>background, wouldn't we? Or are we going to use what ever > >>backgrounds that are currently available in Debian with Debian logo? > >I don't need a desktop background design. > >I'd be completely happy with a blank screen. I might possibly want to > >tweak the background colour, for visual pleasance behind my windows. > >Let those who care choose their own pictures and install them. > > > >We specifically don't need Debian logos. > > > >I don't mind if we do the same for splash screens during booting. > >Don't really need them. Don't want them if they get in the way of > >seeing what it's doing while it boots. > > > >And don't want Devuan deelopers to waste time on them if it means > >delaying our release. After a usable release, we'll have time for > >such matters. > > > >-- hendrik > > Aren't there wallpapers provided by the DE's, eg. xfce4? In this > case, it isn't usefull to provide anything else. > Didier And in fact, it would be work to remove them, so leave them be. Except on my Debian Jessie system the walpaper I get is a blue screen with a Debian logo, a few artistic-looking wwhite curved lines, and the words "Debian 8". There's an menu for choosing another background called "xfce-blue.jpg", but even when I select it, it doesn't seem to appear on the background. (Could systemd be involved here?) No. it's not important to tell me how to change the background -- I don't really care all that much. Eventully it'll all just work on Devuan, and I'll wait for that. -- hendrik > > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Logo survey
On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 10:22:28PM +, Nuno Magalhães wrote: > On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 5:00 PM, Jaromil wrote: > > Is likely not going to be the most interesting thing in Devuan, but > > anyway I wish we tag this process soon with some black and white > > minimalist design to be used, > > Prior to recent (at least in Debian) releases, Xorg came with the > classic checkered monochrome pattern, i'm cool with that :) No. The checkered monochrome background flickered horribly on some monitors. Bad default. > (Now it comes with a black background which is really moronic 'cos it > leaves me wondering "Did --configure barf or is this the root > window?"). Different colour would clear that up. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Logo survey
On Thu, 26 Feb 2015, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > Prior to recent (at least in Debian) releases, Xorg came with the > > classic checkered monochrome pattern, i'm cool with that :) > > No. The checkered monochrome background flickered horribly on some > monitors. Bad default. AFAIK it was there exactly for that, so that one could tune the frequency and check the distortion of the monitor. That was back in the times in which we used to configure XF86Config by hand and sometimes having ad-hoc modelines for non-standard monitors. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Logo survey
On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 10:22:28PM +, Nuno Magalh??es wrote: > Prior to recent (at least in Debian) releases, Xorg came with the > classic checkered monochrome pattern, i'm cool with that :) > (Now it comes with a black background which is really moronic 'cos it > leaves me wondering "Did --configure barf or is this the root > window?"). I like the root weave too. If you want it back, use Xorg -retro or xsetroot -def. HTH, Isaac Dunham ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
