[Dng] systemd free badge
hello i just thought of sharing a simple idea see if anyone likes to get started at it: how about designing a badge that all distros that are systemd free can show? this is not strictly Devuan related, but will benefit people willing to understand such an important architectural aspect of a distro without wasting too much time with its docs I also think such a badge should be different from the without-systemd logo and more like a positive assertion. perhaps it should not really be about systemd, but init freedom more in general, as in distros allowing to have the choice to safely remove all systemd or even download a systemd-free flavour. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] systemd free badge
I like the idea, I tought of trying to gather people around some kind of "rootslinux" foundation, to share efforts, ideas and coding, the badge could be part of this roots linux idea . . . anyone interested ? On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Jaromil wrote: > hello i just thought of sharing a simple idea see if anyone likes to get > started at it: > how about designing a badge that all distros that are systemd free can show? > > this is not strictly Devuan related, but will benefit people willing to > understand such an > important architectural aspect of a distro without wasting too much time with > its docs > > I also think such a badge should be different from the without-systemd logo > and more > like a positive assertion. perhaps it should not really be about systemd, but > init freedom > more in general, as in distros allowing to have the choice to safely remove > all systemd > or even download a systemd-free flavour. > > ciao > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] systemd free badge
On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 10:08:04AM +0100, Jaromil wrote: > hello i just thought of sharing a simple idea see if > anyone likes to get started at it: how about designing a > badge that all distros that are systemd free can show? > > this is not strictly Devuan related, but will benefit > people willing to understand such an important > architectural aspect of a distro without wasting too much > time with its docs > > I also think such a badge should be different from the > without-systemd logo and more like a positive assertion. > perhaps it should not really be about systemd, but init > freedom more in general, as in distros allowing to have > the choice to safely remove all systemd or even download a > systemd-free flavour. Good idea! Brainstorming here, I'm thinking about "Coke Classic". So, what are the classical (or traditional) things we are preserving by excising systemd? Classical Unix Architecture Classical Unix Administration Classical Unix Services Classical Unix Security Classical/traditional AASS means "you don't need to hire special consultants, just competent Unix developers/administrators." Cheers, > ciao > -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] LoginKit on the pre-alpha
I created a Jessie branch in LoginKit's repository. This branch does not have libsystemd*, just loginkitd (the daemon). I removed all functionality from it, except Inhibit(). It's a method implemented in logind and ConsoleKit2. Session managers and display managers call it. After some research, I found out that the only package in the Devuan pre-alpha that calls logind D-Bus methods is xfce4-power-manager and it calls only Inhibit(), to (listen carefully) *disable logind's power management functionality*, because xfce4-power-manager has an internal implementation that conflicts with logind's. As far as I see, that's the only reason why Xfce depends on logind. Therefore, the daemon in LoginKit's Jessie branch exposes Inhibit(), but it doesn't do any power management (because Xfce disables it anyway). It's good, because its code is tiny now. Easier to maintain, less buggy and more secure. I updated the control file, to make this branch the default for Jessie. Maybe we should make xfce4-power-manager depend on loginkit or systemd, but prefer loginkit. I'm fine with packaging loginkit for Jessie, because the daemon is just a stub now. https://git.devuan.org/pkgs-utopia-substitution/loginkit/blob/jessie/debian/control On Sat, 21 Feb 2015 08:23:04 +0100 Jaromil wrote: > > > On 21 February 2015 06:13:29 CET, Jude Nelson wrote: > >Congratulations Dima! This is wonderful news for the future of Devuan! > > > >On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 4:44 PM, Dima Krasner > >wrote: > > > >> Hello folks, > >> > >> Good news on the logind front! I got the pre-alpha to play nicely > >with > >> LoginKit instead of logind. > >> > >> http://i.imgur.com/1PTI6L5.png > > > Indeed. Everything is falling in place nicely. > > Nextime is almost done with the CI now, he faced some problems with dak and > now decided > to maintain his own fork of it, to have it play well with jenkins. After > that, we'll work on instructions > for people to set up more build mirrors and start working to cover as much > architectures as possible > > We have no doubts we will soon succeed to have a 1.0 that is completely > systemd clean > and will probably feel very good if not indispensable in the hands of all > those used to sysvinit > > ciao > > -- Dima Krasner, dimakrasner.com pgppVJMgRQqpx.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Init Freedom badges
On 21/02/2015 12:00, dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org wrote: hello i just thought of sharing a simple idea see if anyone likes to get started at it: how about designing a badge that all distros that are systemd free can show? this is not strictly Devuan related, but will benefit people willing to understand such an important architectural aspect of a distro without wasting too much time with its docs I also think such a badge should be different from the without-systemd logo and more like a positive assertion. perhaps it should not really be about systemd, but init freedom more in general, as in distros allowing to have the choice to safely remove all systemd or even download a systemd-free flavour. What about an Init Freedom Group? Freedom sounds more postitive to me than 'free of', though it's seen some iffy use in recent years. This kind of thing work at two levels. 'Member/Supporter of', meaning it's a goal or a sponsorship target, or you're sympathetic. And 'certificate', meaning the distro confirms there are no nasties lurking in the init woodshed. It would work for packages too, for example any DE that steers clear of hard systemd dependencies, or succeeds at rehab... This makes the badge a source of pride rather than a retrograde step. 2 cents in the tin. David H ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] systemd free badge
On 02/21/15 06:08, Jaromil wrote: > > how about designing a badge that all distros that are systemd free can show? > *** I think some kind of cross-distros work is good. Code sharing will be facilitated with good inter-distros communication. On the one hand, I understand the urge to polarize against systemd: it can be used to denounce its bad aspects and strengthen the identity of the project. On the other hand, giving more attention to systemd than it deserves may cause a disservice to the community. Debian existed before systemd was even thought of, and so Devuan should rather build on this legacy rather than reducing itself to a reactionary stance. Both edges are sharp: the former focuses on the momentum, and the latter focuses more on the long term. I've read both "systemd is here to stay" and "systemd is a fad". Watching empty hands... == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Xfce
On 21/02/2015 01:12, dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org wrote: Definitely, I think we want to maintain a healthy relationship with the Xfce camp. They forked ConsoleKit (https://github.com/consolekit2/consolekit2) and enhanced it with some logind-like functionality. Saturday morning was a poor time to reach out over irc, so I emailed their core developers. If they respond directly I'll let you know. However they now have details of the mailing list and irc channel, so please look out for them and extend the now-traditional Devuan welcome :-) Cheers, David ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] KDE systemd lock-in
On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 5:47 PM, Steve Litt wrote: > They were > specialists in monolithic entanglement when Lennart was in diapers. i'd say any Behemoth DE does that and, like some else said, systemd doing it is just the latest (and most blatant) example of this. Cheers, Nuno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] OT: Linux kernel and the force behind it
On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Nate Bargmann wrote: > > As a home user of Debian running Xfce and also with a strong hobbyist > interest and advocate for Linux systems, I do not wish to be excluded by > Devuan and, at least for 1.0, that does not appear to be in the plan. +1 I don't see what's the fuss about server-oriented vs desktop-oriented. As long as it's not monolithic anyone can/should be able to install a bare-bones CLI-only Devuan then just apt-get Xfce, startx and there you have it: a desktop. I prefer the *box family but what the heck i can go back to xfce. Modular and choice-oriented. Win win. -- "On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog." ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] systemd free badge
On Sat, 21 Feb 2015 10:08:04 +0100 Jaromil wrote: > hello i just thought of sharing a simple idea see if anyone likes to > get started at it: how about designing a badge that all distros that > are systemd free can show? > > this is not strictly Devuan related, but will benefit people willing > to understand such an important architectural aspect of a distro > without wasting too much time with its docs > > I also think such a badge should be different from the > without-systemd logo and more like a positive assertion. perhaps it > should not really be about systemd, but init freedom more in general, > as in distros allowing to have the choice to safely remove all > systemd or even download a systemd-free flavour. I think this is a spectacular idea, and it should also be applied to applications. After all, if Gnome, NetworkManager and a few other apps were systemd-free, Devuan's job would have been much easier. Most of the free software apps I've made aren't GUI, but I'll find a way to put that badge on them anyway. Great idea! SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] systemd free badge
On Fri, 20 Feb 2015 23:46:04 -1000 Joel Roth wrote: > On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 10:08:04AM +0100, Jaromil wrote: > > > hello i just thought of sharing a simple idea see if > > anyone likes to get started at it: how about designing a > > badge that all distros that are systemd free can show? > > > > this is not strictly Devuan related, but will benefit > > people willing to understand such an important > > architectural aspect of a distro without wasting too much > > time with its docs > > > > I also think such a badge should be different from the > > without-systemd logo and more like a positive assertion. > > perhaps it should not really be about systemd, but init > > freedom more in general, as in distros allowing to have > > the choice to safely remove all systemd or even download a > > systemd-free flavour. > > Good idea! > > Brainstorming here, I'm thinking about "Coke Classic". So, > what are the classical (or traditional) things we are > preserving by excising systemd? > > Classical Unix Architecture > Classical Unix Administration > Classical Unix Services > Classical Unix Security > > Classical/traditional AASS means "you don't need to hire > special consultants, just competent Unix > developers/administrators." > > Cheers, IMHO "Classic" or "Classical" doesn't yield a value judgement. Of course, somebody who remembers the "New Coke" debacle would completely see the analogy, but to others, "classic" might equal "neckbeard". SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] systemd free badge
On Sat, 2/21/15, Steve Litt wrote: Subject: Re: [Dng] systemd free badge To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Saturday, February 21, 2015, 8:29 AM On Sat, 21 Feb 2015 10:08:04 +0100 Jaromil wrote: >> hello i just thought of sharing a simple idea see if anyone likes to >> get started at it: how about designing a badge that all distros that >> are systemd free can show? >> >> this is not strictly Devuan related, but will benefit people willing >> to understand such an important architectural aspect of a distro >> without wasting too much time with its docs >> >> I also think such a badge should be different from the >> without-systemd logo and more like a positive assertion. perhaps it >> should not really be about systemd, but init freedom more in general, >> as in distros allowing to have the choice to safely remove all >> systemd or even download a systemd-free flavour. > >I think this is a spectacular idea, and it should also be applied to >applications. After all, if Gnome, NetworkManager and a few other apps >were systemd-free, Devuan's job would have been much easier. Most of >the free software apps I've made aren't GUI, but I'll find a way to put >that badge on them anyway. >Great idea! >SteveT Yes, a very good idea. A bit like a non-GMO certification. Thinking on terms of Unix principles: Modularity-preserved Linux Linux your way Lockin-freed Linux Undoubtedly there are many other ways to communicate this idea. golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges
On 02/21/15 09:14, David Harrison wrote: > > What about an Init Freedom Group? Freedom sounds more postitive to me > than 'free of', though it's seen some iffy use in recent years. > > This kind of thing work at two levels. 'Member/Supporter of', meaning > it's a goal or a sponsorship target, or you're sympathetic. And > 'certificate', meaning the distro confirms there are no nasties lurking > in the init woodshed. > > It would work for packages too, for example any DE that steers clear of > hard systemd dependencies, or succeeds at rehab... > > This makes the badge a source of pride rather than a retrograde step. > *** 100% agreed. https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-art/blob/devuan-alpha/graphics/init-freedom/if.png (my display tricked me into believing the 'f' was shorter, but the somehow the result is interesting: the bodies are centered parallel segments ;o) == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges
On Sat, 2/21/15, David Harrison wrote: Subject: [Dng] Init Freedom badges To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Saturday, February 21, 2015, 6:14 AM On 21/02/2015 12:00, dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org wrote: > hello i just thought of sharing a simple idea see if anyone likes to get > started at it: >> how about designing a badge that all distros that are systemd free can show? >> >> this is not strictly Devuan related, but will benefit people willing to >> understand such an >> important architectural aspect of a distro without wasting too much time >> with its docs >> >> I also think such a badge should be different from the without-systemd logo >> and more >> like a positive assertion. perhaps it should not really be about systemd, >> but init freedom >> more in general, as in distros allowing to have the choice to safely remove >> all systemd >> or even download a systemd-free flavour. > What about an Init Freedom Group? Freedom sounds more postitive to me > than 'free of', though it's seen some iffy use in recent years. > > This kind of thing work at two levels. 'Member/Supporter of', meaning > it's a goal or a sponsorship target, or you're sympathetic. And > 'certificate', meaning the distro confirms there are no nasties lurking > in the init woodshed. > > It would work for packages too, for example any DE that steers clear of > hard systemd dependencies, or succeeds at rehab... > > This makes the badge a source of pride rather than a retrograde step. Urm . . . it's about more than just init and that needs to be conveyed in the badge. golinux 2 cents in the tin. David H ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] systemd free badge
On 02/21/15 13:35, Go Linux wrote: > > Modularity-preserved Linux > Linux your way > Lockin-freed Linux > *** Hmmm... It's about *init*, not the kernel :o) == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges
On Sat, 21 Feb 2015 13:37:53 -0300 hellekin wrote: > > This makes the badge a source of pride rather than a retrograde > > step. > > > *** 100% agreed. > https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-art/blob/devuan-alpha/graphics/init-freedom/if.png How bout this: http://www.a3b3.com/litt/badge.svg Just kidding. :-) SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges
On 02/21/15 13:40, Go Linux wrote: > > Urm . . . it's about more than just init and that needs to be conveyed in the > badge. > *** It says "if" :) https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-art/blob/devuan-alpha/graphics/init-freedom/if.png -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] KDE systemd lock-in
* On 2015 20 Feb 11:56 -0600, Steve Litt wrote: > On Fri, 20 Feb 2015 08:59:33 -0800 > Go Linux wrote: > > > We all knew this was coming . . . > > > > KDE Will Depend on 'logind' and 'timedated' in 6 Months > > > > https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=15/02/20/101235 Following on here since I inadvertently deleted Go Linux's post. Ughh, so they will apparently drop "legacy" support. Why? What does it hurt? Why is backward compatibility anathema to these people? I couldn't care less if they want to use various systemd services, but why can there only be one way? Imagine the chaos if the maintainers of the C library behaved in a like manner (okay, we'd have Python, but I digress ;-). I guess that I am simply too dense to "get" the current paradigm. Actually, I do get it and this is now simply unacceptable behavior from supposedly free software projects. - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] OT: Linux kernel and the force behind it
On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 01:58:59PM +, Nuno Magalhães wrote: > > I don't see what's the fuss about server-oriented vs desktop-oriented. > As long as it's not monolithic anyone can/should be able to install a Even monoliths can be tolerated if they do not exclude other ways of running the system. Desktops should not be mutually exclusive with servers. > bare-bones CLI-only Devuan then just apt-get Xfce, startx and there > you have it: a desktop. I prefer the *box family but what the heck i > can go back to xfce. > > Modular and choice-oriented. Win win. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
