Re: [Dng] Boot loader?
Ok, I have a simple question. I have a modern server and I want to
make advanced configuration for my TB data (eg. hard drives hot
swapping etc.), so I'm doing something like this:
dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda bs=4096
mkfs.btrfs -L dev_sda /dev/sda
mount /dev/sda /mnt
cd /mnt
btrfs subvolume create __active
btrfs subvolume create __active/rootvol
btrfs subvolume create __active/usr
btrfs subvolume create __active/home
btrfs subvolume create __active/var
btrfs subvolume create __snapshots
cd /
umount /mnt
mount -o subvol=__active/rootvol /dev/sda /mnt
mkdir /mnt/{usr,home,var}
mount -o subvol=__active/usr /dev/sda /mnt/usr
mount -o subvol=__active/home /dev/sda /mnt/home
mount -o subvol=__active/var /dev/sda /mnt/var
(Linux installation...)
# /etc/fstab
UUID=ID/btrfs rw,relative,space_cache,subvol=__active/rootvol0 0
UUID=ID/usrbtrfs rw,relative,space_cache,subvol=__active/usr0 0
UUID=ID/homebtrfs rw,relative,space_cache,subvol=__active/home0 0
UUID=ID/varbtrfs rw,relative,space_cache,subvol=__active/var0 0
No partitions (MBR or GPT), everything is running on btrfs. It's easy
to add new disks.
And now the question is: which bootloader supports something like that?
* lilo - no, it does not support.
* grub 0.97 - no, it does not support.
* grub 2 - yes, it works (I confirm).
* extlinux - probably works, but not tested.
I have no problem to accept lilo, but I want to be able to use
advanced configuration.
Daniel
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Boot loader?
On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 09:48:37PM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: [cut] > > Perhaps detailed instructions for doing this should be in the > documentation for devuan -- somewhere where the home user is likely to > see it. > IMHO, a home user does not necessarily need to know how to rescue from a malfunctioning LILO conf, since he should not be able to stop LILO from working by installing and upgrading packages (which are the normal things a "home user" wpuld do). To be honest, a home user wouldn't usually bother at all about which boot loader is used. The best way of getting LILO stop working is by mangling kernel image names (i.e., due to compilation/manual upgrade to another version) and messing up disk partitions, that is something the "home user" does not usually need to do. And if it does, then he is no more a "home user" but a wannabe-experienced-user, and should learn the hard way how to fix troubles he has caused (and by "the hard way" I mean experience the pain of loosing data, trashing a working distribution, erasing by mistake an entire disk, and similar funny stuff that increase your awareness about the potential damage that ignorance can make...). I believe that the way forward is simple: let's give standard, rock-solid working environments to "home users", as that provided so far by Debian & relatives, but leave the freedom to mess things up to the people that know how to do that (or would like to learn it...). My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Package Versions
On Friday, 30 de January de 2015 03:03:46 tilt escribió: > Am 30.01.2015 um 03:49 schrieb Adam Borowski: > > On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 09:39:19PM +, Noel Torres wrote: > > [...] > > > >> Given that, if we pin our repository to 1001, it will > >> always have bigger priority than Debian's, even if Debian > >> version is higher than ours, and even if we are trying to > >> downgrade from a higher Debian version to a lower Devuan > >> one. > > > > I don't think you should force a downgrade -- if the system > > is on Devuan, a higher version being installed means an > > intentional user action. Thus, a pin above 500 but less > > than 990 would be appropriate. > > I second not using pin-priority 1001 or above. > > 1001 is what many admins (not reading into the details) use > to make sure their decisions override whatever is > preinstalled/preconfigured. It's basically advertised all > over the web as the "override everything else" priority. > > If something preconfigured uses priority 1001, it's bound to > cause confusion if not frustration. I agree on not using so high pins. I was just posing an example. In fact, as our release is called Jessie, we will need to ping the repository, but after that, having different Release names will make the Target-Release rule to be enough. Regards Noel er Envite signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Boot loader?
On Sun, Feb 01, 2015 at 10:18:02AM +, KatolaZ wrote: > On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 09:48:37PM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > [cut] > > > > > Perhaps detailed instructions for doing this should be in the > > documentation for devuan -- somewhere where the home user is likely to > > see it. > > > > IMHO, a home user does not necessarily need to know how to rescue from > a malfunctioning LILO conf, since he should not be able to stop LILO > from working by installing and upgrading packages (which are the > normal things a "home user" wpuld do). To be honest, a home user > wouldn't usually bother at all about which boot loader is used. Really easy to end up without LILO working. If you boot from a floppy, LILO will try to write the boot informatino on the floppy. Just forget to diable write-protect on the floppy before an upgrade. You'll get a few messages, but may not see them. Or an inept backup and restore that replaces the kernel with itself. > [...] > I believe that the way forward is simple: let's give standard, > rock-solid working environments to "home users", as that provided so > far by Debian & relatives, but leave the freedom to mess things up to > the people that know how to do that (or would like to learn it...). Rock solid is good, yes. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Boot loader?
On Sun, 1 Feb 2015 10:18:02 + KatolaZ wrote: > On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 09:48:37PM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > [cut] > > > > > Perhaps detailed instructions for doing this should be in the > > documentation for devuan -- somewhere where the home user is likely > > to see it. > > > > IMHO, a home user does not necessarily need to know how to rescue from > a malfunctioning LILO conf, since he should not be able to stop LILO > from working by installing and upgrading packages (which are the > normal things a "home user" wpuld do). To be honest, a home user > wouldn't usually bother at all about which boot loader is used. > > The best way of getting LILO stop working is by mangling kernel image > names (i.e., due to compilation/manual upgrade to another version) and > messing up disk partitions, that is something the "home user" does not > usually need to do. And if it does, then he is no more a "home user" > but a wannabe-experienced-user, By all means then, a wannabe-experienced-user. Let's document busting back into a borked LILO machine for the wannabe-experienced-user so he can bust back into his machine if he borks it. > and should learn the hard way how to > fix troubles he has caused (and by "the hard way" I mean experience > the pain of loosing data, trashing a working distribution, erasing by > mistake an entire disk, and similar funny stuff that increase your > awareness about the potential damage that ignorance can make...). That's a little harsh and punitive, don't you think? I'd imagine just having to bust back in and re-lilo would get his attention --- he needn't lose those family pictures he took yesterday and hasn't backed up yet. > I believe that the way forward is simple: let's give standard, > rock-solid working environments to "home users", as that provided so > far by Debian & relatives, but leave the freedom to mess things up to > the people that know how to do that (or would like to learn it...). Abso-Lutely. As the OP, I never intended to suggest that Devuan should necessarily switch *the default* away from Grub2. I merely voiced the hope that LILO, ELILO, and the syslinux group would be available as packages. And I wholeheartedly agree with Hendrick that the process of busting back into a borked LILO machine, fixing lilo.conf, and re-liloing, should be documented. I wrote a rudimentary form of such a document, as applied to 1999 technology, here: http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/knoppix/knoppix_rescue.htm#_Busting_into_a_Locked_Up_Machine SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Boot loader?
On Sun, Feb 01, 2015 at 11:56:40AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: [cut] > > > I believe that the way forward is simple: let's give standard, > > rock-solid working environments to "home users", as that provided so > > far by Debian & relatives, but leave the freedom to mess things up to > > the people that know how to do that (or would like to learn it...). > > Abso-Lutely. As the OP, I never intended to suggest that Devuan should > necessarily switch *the default* away from Grub2. I merely voiced the > hope that LILO, ELILO, and the syslinux group would be available as > packages. And I wholeheartedly agree with Hendrick that the process of > busting back into a borked LILO machine, fixing lilo.conf, and > re-liloing, should be documented. > OK, but then I don't see the problem. Currently, Debian Jessie makes available LILO, ELILO, GRUB, GRUB2, syslinux (the whole suite, including the bootloaders for xfs, btrfs and PXE), SILO, PALO, petitboot, gummiboot, and who knows how many other boot loaders, and Devuan will (at least initially) be an exact copy of Debian Jessie without systemd installed by default. So those packages will still be there, I suppose :) I have to admit that I don't like grub2 either, and I still miss a bit the old-fashioned LILO, syslinux, SBM and the like, but again: how many users (and how often) do really care about which bootloader is available or installed by default? I bet that 99.9% of the users of Debian do not care, and maybe more than 85% of Devuan's ones will not as well... My point is that if you need to care about boot loaders (or recompiling the kernel, or shrinking/extending a couple of partitions), then you should know exactly what you are doing, or be ready to accept the consequences, or refrain from doing anything :) You might find it harsh, but I am convinced that most of the mess we are forced to deal with nowadays (including the systemd nonsense and a lot of other shit around) is due to a series of attempts to make things "easy for the home user", under the assumption that the system should act as a nanny and be able to deal with the ignorance, lack of experience and laziness of the "home user", even for tasks that can potentially hinder the functionality of the entire operating system. That's why I get a bit nervous when anything is proposed "for the good of the home user" :) HND KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Boot loader?
On Sun, Feb 01, 2015 at 10:13:09PM +, KatolaZ wrote: > > My point is that if you need to care about boot loaders (or > recompiling the kernel, or shrinking/extending a couple of > partitions), then you should know exactly what you are doing, or be > ready to accept the consequences, or refrain from doing anything :) My point is that it should be easy to learn what it is you're doing. > > You might find it harsh, but I am convinced that most of the mess we > are forced to deal with nowadays (including the systemd nonsense and a > lot of other shit around) is due to a series of attempts to make > things "easy for the home user", under the assumption that the system > should act as a nanny and be able to deal with the ignorance, lack of > experience and laziness of the "home user", even for tasks that can > potentially hinder the functionality of the entire operating > system. That's why I get a bit nervous when anything is proposed "for > the good of the home user" :) Which is exactly why I want to see documentation rather than more take-care-of-everything automation. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Boot loader?
I am just finishing getting over a grub2/gpt problem that I am sidestepping by using the IsoLinux part of SysLinux (until Devuan comes out, so I can ditch Gentoo), and I had volunteered to do a presentation on backups to my local engineering association. As far as booting goes, there are too many ways to boot a computer. Off the floppy, off the CD/DVD, off the hard disk, off NFS, off Ethernet, off an encrypted disk, which requires interaction with a USB device involved with encryption, and so on. In the context of my backup presentation; the boss comes into work, takes his USB thingy out of his pocket, types in his password, plugs it into the USB port, and boots the backup computer. The computer won't boot unless the USB thingy is active (has the correct password entered). The backup computer asks for 1000 (more?) encryption keys, one key for each object to be backed up that day. He then removes his USB thingy. The next time he plugs in and boots, the backup computer will download information as to what each key was used for. I wasn't impressed with the SysLinux documentation, but how many packages have good documentation? :-) How many times can you stare at a short plain text file, and not see that a single space and an equal sign are not the same thing? I am not a proper computer engineer/scientist. I am a materials science person who knows more than he should. I once was at a lecture where (I think it was Brian Kernighan) was talking about little languages. And I had used a bunch of them (eqn, tbl, pic, ...). I've looked at things related to yacc, bison, the recursive descent parser in Perl and so on. I think if it is at all possible to design something as a language (or at least a little language), it is easier to design a consistent parser and document the thing. I think a boot loader would be something that could be done this way. But, I am not volunteering. I am due to try and start and composites fabrication business soon (hopefully Devuan is up before then, otherwise I will have to deal with Gentoo longer). Gord ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
