Re: Dia: Why is it so hard to do simple things? dia-list Digest, Vol 89, Issue 7

[Tech Support Department]

@ Andreas Spindler,
Friend, I understand and share in your frustration.  As far as I can understand it, the majority of the 
free and open source software (FOSS) community is just creating software to serve their own needs.  That 
others may use it is besides the point.  Their web site's existence is evidently not a promotion of the 
product for others to use.  That one point can be very tricky and misleading thru-out the web.  Caveat 
emptor. Also, keep in mind that they are doing something in their own way, and they are not necessarily 
wanting to do it as others may desire, since that is not their goal.  I hope that clarifies things some. 
 In most cases, there is no substitute for commercial software or free software that is promoted by the 
programmers toward the public's use.




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Today's Topics:

1. Dia: Why is it so hard to do simple things? (Andreas Spindler)


--

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2011 13:49:28 +0200
From: Andreas Spindler
To: dia-list@gnome.org
Subject: Dia: Why is it so hard to do simple things?
Message-ID:<4e68abc8.5080...@visualco.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"


Hello,

just a quick note. I started to use Dia on Windows. As an exercise I
tried to create an UML diagram.
After five minutes I had five boxes of different sizes, different font
sizes. Nothing can be changed or aligned.
Dia just does something random. Sorry to say that, but after playing an
hour with the program I found it only frustrating.

How can I get this diagram to be printed on one page, with equally sized
boxes and the same font size? This seems
to be the least thing it should do for all diagram elements. I really
like the  specific properties dialog boxes for the different UML types,
where I can edit operations and attributes. But the result is unusable.
Please see the attached screenshot.

Or, what am I missing?

First I used "T" to create a title. The title is small, no possibility
to make it bigger.
I created a class and a box popped on the screen, so huge, I couldn't
even read it. Then I created another class,
and two others. All use different fonts. This is one of these programs
where I ask myself: "Are the
programmers really use this themselves?"




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Re: Dia: Why is it so hard to do simple things?

[Michael Ross]

Hi Andreas,

The blue lines in your image are page breaks.  They represent the area that
will print on one page given the margins you have set.

If you draw all within the page break lines it will print on one page.
If you draw across a page break line Dia will put the drawing on the printed
pages according to how you crossed over.
You could take these and tape them together into larger poster.  I learned
to call that a segmented plot when using CAD programs, if that helps.

I have never tried to verify if font sizes are accurately shown, but there
is certainly control for that via the properties of the text. (double click)
Since it is possible to scale the whole Dia I presume font sizes will be
what you expect if the page scale is 100%.
I am not sure how set a default font size.  Maybe someone will answer how to
do that.
I am guessing this is how it would work: make text 12pt size on a 100 scale
page.  The page gets too full of stuff, so you scale that page down to get a
little more space - 75% let us say.
You don't have go around and change the font size of all the text - the font
size will now be 3/4 times 12pt.
Scale the page to get the contents to fill the page better, the fonts will
increase accordingly.
Don't confuse view zooming with page scale.

I have explained some of this before and will append an earlier answer.

If you have more questions please ask.

Mike

If you want all your work to be on on single pages, then never cross a page
break line and arrange your work on adjacent pages within the marked areas.
 (You can draw right up to the page breaks because the margins will be added
when you print.)  If you want to draw north and south, east and west of the
first page it will make no difference - except maybe the pagination will be
unknown until you try it.  (I have never experimented with the pagination,
and it sounds like there may be some odd behavior.)

But if you cross a page break line Dia will have to put the work on two
pages when it is time to print.


Here is the drill.

Start a Dia and set up how you want the pages - paper size,  landscape or
portrait, and how much margin you want to show on the printed page.

The page breaks will be at the dimensions of the printed area you have
described.

Zoom in to a single page and start drawing.  If you want it all on one page
- a normal thing to want, then don't draw across the page break lines.

If you want a little more room, you can revisit the page set up and change
the scale.  A smaller scale means what you have drawn will be scaled smaller
relative the the page size.

If you didn't take up the whole page then you can scale the drawing up to
better fill the page.


Suppose you have given up on the idea of all the Dia on one single letter
size page.   You can choose a larger page size - say B size which is two
portrait letter pages side by side.
You just change it and the page breaks are reconfigured according to the
scale and margins you have set.  Your Dia will probably not be
in exactly the placement you like so you move things around in the B size
printed area (margins not shown), don't cross the page breaks and it will
all print out on one B size page.

Suppose you now have a Dia that is huge or so detailed that it will be hard
to read.  Now you can simply scale it to fit over as many pages you want -
without any regard to the numbers on the ruler.  When you print Dia will
break it up into the exact pages shown by the page breaks.  The printed
pages will have the material from within the page breaks outlined by the
exact margins you specified.  If your printer will do it you could probably
have no margins at all.  But forget that, it you print this huge Dia that
covers many pages you can simple take your transparent tape or glue stick
and piece all the individual pages together into a single poster.

This is all very interesting, but it never really comes up for the work I do
with Dia.  For a project I may draw all over the Dia work area.  The first
page might have a graph from an image in another program.  Then I annotate
that, then I create a new image of a graph where the test was changed, then
I may start to add narrative about the difference in tests.  I might move
below or above and put together a functional block diagram, to the right is
a flow chart, there might be some more images of test apparatus or
photographic evidence from the testing.   I might have an areas that just
contains handy shapes I have created that I want to copy elsewhere.  I might
create a layers and overlay mark ups that can be toggled on and off.

I do this with no concern for how printing will turn out because I hardly
ever use Dia for printing.  I usually compose a printed page from some
elements of the overall diagram, and do a screen dump when I like it.  I
will take that as a jpg and add it to Open Office docs, or webpages.  More
often than not I never print anything.

Frequently, I take these screen dumps into Inkscape where I can creat

Re: Dia: Why is it so hard to do simple things?

[Paul Chavent]

I don't know wich dia version you use. But,

(1) for aligning object i often use object->align

(2) for making a text (if you use) "T" bigger, double click then increase the 
font size (or change its type...).

(3) for different font for different class, i think that's because you check 
"abstract" !?

I think that you need some practice, or ask how to do before saying dia can't 
do ...

But i agree with you dia has some points to improve.

On 09/08/2011 01:49 PM, Andreas Spindler wrote:


Hello,

just a quick note. I started to use Dia on Windows. As an exercise I tried to
create an UML diagram.
After five minutes I had five boxes of different sizes, different font sizes.
Nothing can be changed or aligned.
Dia just does something random. Sorry to say that, but after playing an hour
with the program I found it only frustrating.

How can I get this diagram to be printed on one page, with equally sized boxes
and the same font size? This seems
to be the least thing it should do for all diagram elements. I really like the
specific properties dialog boxes for the different UML types,
where I can edit operations and attributes. But the result is unusable. Please
see the attached screenshot.

Or, what am I missing?

First I used "T" to create a title. The title is small, no possibility to make
it bigger.
I created a class and a box popped on the screen, so huge, I couldn't even read
it. Then I created another class,
and two others. All use different fonts. This is one of these programs where I
ask myself: "Are the
programmers really use this themselves?"



--

*Andreas Spindler*

/Web:/  www.visualco.de
IT-Consultant
Senior Software-Entwickler/Engineer
Systemprogrammierung UNIX/Windows/Linux /Email:/i...@visualco.de

/Tel.:/ +49 6084 959990
/Mobil:/+49 171 9579893




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Re: Dia: Why is it so hard to do simple things?

[Pierre-Louis Bonicoli]

On 08/09/2011 13:49, Andreas Spindler wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> just a quick note. I started to use Dia on Windows. As an exercise I tried to 
> create an UML diagram.
> After five minutes I had five boxes of different sizes, different font sizes. 

Hi !

just a quick response :)

As an experienced programmer and a specialist, you should know that more
informations are needed in order to get some help (Interesting reading:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html). What versions of
windows/Dia are you using ?

> Nothing can be changed or aligned.

Did you try the Objects->Align menu ? It's mentioned in the tutorial
available here http://projects.gnome.org/dia/diatut/all/all.html#L015
and in the manual available here
http://dia-installer.de/doc/en/objects-chapter.html#aligning-objects

> Dia just does something random. Sorry to say that, but after playing an hour 
> with the program I found it only frustrating.
> 
> How can I get this diagram to be printed on one page, with equally sized 
> boxes 
> and the same font size? This seems
> to be the least thing it should do for all diagram elements. I really like 
> the 
> specific properties dialog boxes for the different UML types,
> where I can edit operations and attributes. But the result is unusable. 
> Please 
> see the attached screenshot.
> 
> Or, what am I missing?
> 
> First I used "T" to create a title. The title is small, no possibility to 
> make 
> it bigger.

I can not reproduce: using properties dialog box of a "standard - Text"
object i am able to modify the size of font.

> I created a class and a box popped on the screen, so huge, I couldn't even 
> read 
> it. Then I created another class,
> and two others. All use different fonts.

So i can not reproduce problems you encounter using dia 0.97.1 (with
Linux or Windows).

> This is one of these programs where I 
> ask myself: "Are the
> programmers really use this themselves?"

Maybe you should try to fix one of bugs you described: write a patch and
then become a programmer who was first an user :) Or maybe you could do
nothing in order to improve (as a developper, yes you can!) what you
think is wrong and continue to whine /o\

Pierre-Louis
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Re: Non-transparent background for custom shapes - possible?

[Hans Breuer]

Hi Andrey,
At 29.08.2011 18:11, Andrey Repin wrote:

Greetings, All.

I'm trying to create some custom shapes to automate my diagram creation, but
I'm unable to find a way to have  field span outside element
boundaries and maintain it's readability at the same time, as it is possible
with simple text field. Is there a way that I'm missing?

I'm not sure I I understood your problem, but dit you try the resize="no" 
attribute? See:

http://git.gnome.org/browse/dia/tree/doc/custom-shapes#n100

This should give you text "sapn outside boundaries". And the textbox 
background will not be drawn, so it would be transparent.


But if you want an opaque textbox with shapes - like the draw background 
option of Standard - Text - that's indeed not possible with resize="no".


HTH,
Hans

 Hans "at" Breuer "dot" Org ---
Tell me what you need, and I'll tell you how to
get along without it.-- Dilbert
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Re: Dia: Why is it so hard to do simple things? dia-list Digest, Vol 89, Issue 7

[Michael Ross]

It is worth noting that many people like this software and work productively
with it who did not write it.

Questions about how to use Dia almost always get answered in fairly short
time.

But, the only mechanism for getting ones wishes met regarding new features,
is to make a good case for the work.  That means having a cooperative
conversation with the developers - or doing it yourself (never an option
with commercial software).  The supplicant/requestor needs to do what is
necessary to clearly convey the feature desired, and must have sufficient
experience with the software to understand its basic use; otherwise they are
just asking for things that may be solved in ways they have not learned yet.


Getting bugs fixed is quite expeditious with Dia even compared to commercial
software where polite entreaties get you nowhere at all.

Complaints such as, "it doesn't work like Visio," or whatever, aren't
exactly pertinent since this isn't Visio.  A person can easily use Visio,
and Dia is still no cost at all to use as well.



On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 12:57 PM, Tech Support Department <
t...@frontrowcomputer.com> wrote:

 Also, keep in mind that they are doing something in their own way, and they
> are not necessarily wanting to do it as others may desire, since that is not
> their goal.  I hope that clarifies things some.  In most cases, there is no
> substitute for commercial software or free software that is promoted by the
> programmers toward the public's use.
>
>
-- 
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. 
Edison

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824  Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

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Re: Dia: Why is it so hard to do simple things?

[Octavio Alvarez]

On Thu, 08 Sep 2011 04:49:28 -0700, Andreas Spindler 
wrote:


How can I get this diagram to be printed on one page, with equally sized
boxes and the same font size?


I don't know about the UML sheets, as I mostly do network diagrams, but I
usually set it to Fit:1x1 in Page Setup. I then export it to PNG and print
it with Gimp or include it in an ODF Text Document. It will save you a lot
of time.

As for the text size, I am able to select multiple text boxes and bring
up the dialog as if they were a single group. I can change the text from
there.

There are aligning options, and even keyboard shortcuts to have a faster
work flow.

I don't know about uniform sizing, though. I *think* box sizes depend on
the contents for those figures, but don't take my word for it.


This seems to be the least thing it should do for all diagram elements.

I really like the specific properties dialog boxes for the different
UML types, where I can edit operations and attributes. But the result
is unusable.

Please see the attached screenshot.


Sorry if I'm harsh on you, but I think you didn't even went through the
menus, and also you expected it work exactly like some particular other
program you may already know.

Also, your screenshot was 220K in size, which is huge for some
subscribers, and it was not informative enough. I don't even know what
exact boxes are you using there because I don't know UML. You
made it difficult for me to help you.

So, please, next time: try to make it smaller. Include a sample .dia
file. Ask specific questions. Provide fixes for your problems.


I created a class and a box popped on the screen, so huge, I couldn't
even read it.


Change your screen resolution to something more up to date?

Also, did you tweak your DPI, or did you change the font settings for
your desktop? Is your GTK+ theme misconfigured?


This is one of these programs where I ask myself: "Are the
programmers really use this themselves?"


I don't know, but I do know that your statement did absolutely nothing
to improve the software. We don't have a "git apply-whine". :-)

I do think that Dia has a lot of limitations, and the only way to
overcome them is to provide patches. This is a community-developed
piece of software. You are welcome to contribute with good bug reports
(not all bug reports are useful), and with good patches (not all
patches are useful).


--
Octavio.
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dia components

[Michael Scheepers]

Hi, a question from a dia user perspective:

Earlier this year I put together a Network diagram using the standard dia
install on SUSE. I've predominantly used Visio for this purpose for some
time, however I was really impressed with dia and based on my experience in
this instance, resolved that dia is absolutely a viable alternative for this
purpose.

I subsequently replaced SUSE with Linux Mint, however the default dia
install available in Mint is missing a lot of the Network elements that were
available to me on SUSE. Contrary to my earlier extremely positive
experience on SUSE, the small handful of "missing" network elements on Mint
unfortunately prevent dia from even being an option for producing Network
diagrams via the Mint platform.

I checked and both SUSE and MINT had the same version of dia (0.9.7 if I
recall correctly but I may be mistaken).

Can anyone shed some light on why the  same version of dia would have a
different set of elements to choose from, when installed on two different
Linux distributions?

And more importantly, can anyone advise on how I can correct this problem on
Mint and get access to the "missing" dia elements?
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Can I set a default for the text font and size?

[Michael Ross]

Can I set a default for the text font and size?

--
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness,
or should I help others gain happiness?
Dalai Lama

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
Warren Buffet

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

michael.e.r...@gmail.com
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Re: Can I set a default for the text font and size?

[Pierre-Louis Bonicoli]

On 09/09/2011 01:53, Michael Ross wrote:
> Can I set a default for the text font and size?
For each object type you can choose the default settings, it's explained
here:
http://dia-installer.de/doc/en/objects-chapter.html#default-properties

Pierre-Louis
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Re: Can I set a default for the text font and size?

[Michael Ross]

Thanks!  That works very well.

I apologize for not looking that up myself.  Having used Dia for a long
time, I have no habit of looking at the user guide - it was so sparse when I
began.

M

On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 8:37 PM, Pierre-Louis Bonicoli <
pierre-louis.bonic...@gmx.fr> wrote:

> On 09/09/2011 01:53, Michael Ross wrote:
> > Can I set a default for the text font and size?
> For each object type you can choose the default settings, it's explained
> here:
> http://dia-installer.de/doc/en/objects-chapter.html#default-properties
>
> Pierre-Louis
> ___
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> Main page at http://live.gnome.org/Dia
>
>


-- 
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. 
Edison

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824  Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

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