Self Introduction: Bryce Carson

[Bryce Carson]

Hello Fedora Developers,

I'm an undergraduate biologist, and I've been using Linux 24/7 for four 
years. I've been involved with MesserLab's SLiM software project for 
half a year now, functioning as the volunteer package maintainer. I've 
created and maintained the Copr repository for SLiM for some months now.


In my own work, I use SLiM for population genetics simulations in my 
undergraduate research, and have used the software professionally (as a 
paid research assistant) for two years. I also use GNU R in my work, 
and I enjoy learning more about that language and frequently watch 
conference recordings (and download all the full-text PDFs I can).


I have not yet submitted my package to Bugzilla, as there is an 
outstanding binary file name conflict with Simple Login Manager (packed 
in Fedora's repos as `slim`). I have opened an issue with Ben Haller, 
the developer of Selection on Linked Mutations (SLiM), explaining the 
conflict and the solutions to it here: 
<https://github.com/MesserLab/SLiM/issues/175>.


We hope to have SLiM accepted into the Fedora Project's official 
software repository soon, and I hope that this email was a good 
self-introduction.


Regards, Fedora Friends,

Bryce Carson.

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Re: Self Introduction: Bryce Carson

[Bryce Carson]

Thanks, Dominik.

I'll also note that I have made the Review Request on Bugzilla: 
<https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1953254>.


I have spoken with the upstream developer about renaming the binary, 
and they are unwilling to do so.


A Conflicts tag might be required.

If @hubbitus (Pavel Alexeev) has input on the conflict, as they are the 
maintainer of Simple Login Manger, that'd be great.


Regards,

Bryce.

On Sun, Apr 25, 2021 at 16:45, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski 
 wrote:

Hello, Bryce.

On Sunday, 25 April 2021 at 03:01, Bryce Carson wrote:

 Hello Fedora Developers,

 I'm an undergraduate biologist, and I've been using Linux 24/7 for 
four
 years. I've been involved with MesserLab's SLiM software project 
for half a
 year now, functioning as the volunteer package maintainer. I've 
created and

 maintained the Copr repository for SLiM for some months now.

 In my own work, I use SLiM for population genetics simulations in my
 undergraduate research, and have used the software professionally 
(as a paid
 research assistant) for two years. I also use GNU R in my work, and 
I enjoy
 learning more about that language and frequently watch conference 
recordings

 (and download all the full-text PDFs I can).

 I have not yet submitted my package to Bugzilla, as there is an 
outstanding
 binary file name conflict with Simple Login Manager (packed in 
Fedora's
 repos as `slim`). I have opened an issue with Ben Haller, the 
developer of
 Selection on Linked Mutations (SLiM), explaining the conflict and 
the
 solutions to it here: 
<<https://github.com/MesserLab/SLiM/issues/175>>.


 We hope to have SLiM accepted into the Fedora Project's official 
software
 repository soon, and I hope that this email was a good 
self-introduction.


Very impressive. It looks like you're already a great open source
contributor.  We're looking forward to having you in Fedora.

Regards,
Dominik
--
Fedora   https://getfedora.org <https://getfedora.org/>  |  RPM 
Fusion  http://rpmfusion.org <http://rpmfusion.org/>

There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and
oppression to develop psychic muscles.
-- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan
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Re: New RPM submission

[Bryce Carson]

Perhaps we could improve the wiki page on Joining** to make it more clear
what the process is like?

I read through the guidelines and the Joining page a couple times, and only
near the end does it state that Joining is more about, well, joining as a
person than publishing a package. I believe it then recommendeds Copr
around that point for simple publishing.

Maybe we could ask Docs and some newer joiners to do a little review of the
wiki for Joining and see if we can rewrite and modernize?

On Fri., Apr. 30, 2021, 10:43 a.m. Stephen John Smoogen, 
wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 at 12:26, Mattia Verga via devel <
> devel@lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>
>> Il 30/04/21 15:16, Joan Moreau via devel ha scritto:
>>
>> Thanks but I am really scratching my head to try to understand all this:
>>
>> 1 - How to get to the "packager" group ou forum or else ?
>>
>> 2 - What does it mean to "block the FE-NEEDSPONSOR
>>  tracking
>> bug" ?
>>
>> So far, I have https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1953340
>>
>> Any help very welcome
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> JM
>>
>> Short answer: wait for someone to review your package submission,
>> meanwhile you can do some informal reviews as described here [1] to show
>> some sponsor you actually comprehend Fedora Packaging Guidelines [2].
>>
>> Becoming a Fedora packager and being allowed to push software in Fedora
>> official repositories require following specific rules and standards. Just
>> like getting a driver license, you're required to study the rules and to
>> show you know how to do things. You cannot just jump in a car and start
>> driving (at least, not in Italy).
>>
>> BTW from a quick look at your specfile, the changelog doesn't seem to be
>> in the prescribed format.
>>
>
> So going from this long list of posts, I think the core problem is that
> new people do not have a good idea of what it means to have a package in
> Fedora Linux.
>
> Fedora Linux is built around the idea that it is a total operating system,
> which means that the packages should be integrated with each other. This
> means that the packages in it have some knowledge of how the rest of the
> operating system works so that they a) do not interfere with each other and
> b) are able to ask for and use resources properly from other systems. Over
> the ~30 years of Linux operating systems a lot of corner cases and other
> complexities have been discovered which are boiled down in each operating
> system's "packaging rules". Because Fedora Linux releases every 6 months,
> there are additional complexities which are needed to allow for someone
> else to 'take over a package' that require 'prescribed formats and rules of
> the road'. Finally because each application in a 'total operating system'
> can affect the security of many different computers, there needs to be a
> certain amount of trust between people on who the packager is, why they are
> doing something, and what they know.
>
> This means that becoming a Fedora Packager requires some training (usually
> done by oneself) and it requires commitment for working through the process
> of becoming a packager. Similar processes are needed to add packages in
> Debian and some other Linux distributions also.
>
> It is a lot of work, and it is probably something we should be more
> upfront with (we mainly forget because most of us 'joined the club' years
> ago).
>
>
>
>
>> Mattia
>>
>> [1]
>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_get_sponsored_into_the_packager_group#Show_Your_Expertise_by_Commenting_on_other_Review_Requests
>> [2] https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/packaging-guidelines/
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>
> --
> Stephen J Smoogen.
> I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Flame wars in
> sci.astro.orion. I have seen SPAM filters overload because of Godwin's Law.
> All those moments will be lost in time... like posts on  BBS...
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Re: New RPM submission

[Bryce Carson]

For what it's worth, I'm trying to join and have a package included and
there are definitely some areas I would like to improve. Should we make a
thread on their mailing list?

On Fri., Apr. 30, 2021, 5:50 p.m. Bryce Carson, 
wrote:

> Perhaps we could improve the wiki page on Joining** to make it more clear
> what the process is like?
>
> I read through the guidelines and the Joining page a couple times, and
> only near the end does it state that Joining is more about, well, joining
> as a person than publishing a package. I believe it then recommendeds Copr
> around that point for simple publishing.
>
> Maybe we could ask Docs and some newer joiners to do a little review of
> the wiki for Joining and see if we can rewrite and modernize?
>
> On Fri., Apr. 30, 2021, 10:43 a.m. Stephen John Smoogen, 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 at 12:26, Mattia Verga via devel <
>> devel@lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Il 30/04/21 15:16, Joan Moreau via devel ha scritto:
>>>
>>> Thanks but I am really scratching my head to try to understand all this:
>>>
>>> 1 - How to get to the "packager" group ou forum or else ?
>>>
>>> 2 - What does it mean to "block the FE-NEEDSPONSOR
>>> <https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=FE-NEEDSPONSOR> tracking
>>> bug" ?
>>>
>>> So far, I have https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1953340
>>>
>>> Any help very welcome
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> JM
>>>
>>> Short answer: wait for someone to review your package submission,
>>> meanwhile you can do some informal reviews as described here [1] to show
>>> some sponsor you actually comprehend Fedora Packaging Guidelines [2].
>>>
>>> Becoming a Fedora packager and being allowed to push software in Fedora
>>> official repositories require following specific rules and standards. Just
>>> like getting a driver license, you're required to study the rules and to
>>> show you know how to do things. You cannot just jump in a car and start
>>> driving (at least, not in Italy).
>>>
>>> BTW from a quick look at your specfile, the changelog doesn't seem to be
>>> in the prescribed format.
>>>
>>
>> So going from this long list of posts, I think the core problem is that
>> new people do not have a good idea of what it means to have a package in
>> Fedora Linux.
>>
>> Fedora Linux is built around the idea that it is a total operating
>> system, which means that the packages should be integrated with each other.
>> This means that the packages in it have some knowledge of how the rest of
>> the operating system works so that they a) do not interfere with each other
>> and b) are able to ask for and use resources properly from other systems.
>> Over the ~30 years of Linux operating systems a lot of corner cases and
>> other complexities have been discovered which are boiled down in each
>> operating system's "packaging rules". Because Fedora Linux releases every 6
>> months, there are additional complexities which are needed to allow for
>> someone else to 'take over a package' that require 'prescribed formats and
>> rules of the road'. Finally because each application in a 'total operating
>> system' can affect the security of many different computers, there needs to
>> be a certain amount of trust between people on who the packager is, why
>> they are doing something, and what they know.
>>
>> This means that becoming a Fedora Packager requires some training
>> (usually done by oneself) and it requires commitment for working through
>> the process of becoming a packager. Similar processes are needed to add
>> packages in Debian and some other Linux distributions also.
>>
>> It is a lot of work, and it is probably something we should be more
>> upfront with (we mainly forget because most of us 'joined the club' years
>> ago).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Mattia
>>>
>>> [1]
>>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_get_sponsored_into_the_packager_group#Show_Your_Expertise_by_Commenting_on_other_Review_Requests
>>> [2] https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/packaging-guidelines/
>>> ___
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>>> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
>>> Fedora Code of Conduct:
>>> https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/pr

Re: New RPM submission

[Bryce Carson]

Yes, that distinction is clear to me, but as you said if English is not
your first language it might be less clear or the process might seem scary.

I feel there could at least be maintenance of the documents themselves,
which never hurts. It's a part of Fedora too! We have the nice site for
Packaging Guidelines themselves, but Joining the Package Collection
Maintainers wiki page is a little dated in layout and whatnot. We could
earmark that.

I haven't thought of submitting my package at all until last week. I've
maintained it on Copr for several months now, and I've spent a few hours
with a Debian user who was having troubles with an build script I made for
Debian & Ubuntu users (they had library conflicts because of Matlab).

It's clear, but it's not plainly stated that package submission to, and
more importantly inclusion in, the official package repository is a
different thing from simple application distribution. Responding to users,
addressing edge cases, and ensuring breakage don't occur is definitely the
actual responsibility that comes with hurdling through the process and
having a package included in the repo.

For all other intents and purposes, Copr, the Outer Rim, is the place to
be. It's fun there, a bit of a Kessel run.

On Sat., May 1, 2021, 2:42 a.m. Mattia Verga via devel, <
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:

> Il 01/05/21 10:21, Joan Moreau via devel ha scritto:
> >
> > For instance, personally, I am not using Fedora at all (Arch fan ;) )
> > but just willing to make my piece of software available widely for
> > those interested. I am happy to maintain the package in the long run,
> > but will not get involve to much into Fedora project except my small
> > piece of software contribution.
> >
> >
> That's absolutely fine, but in my opinion the wiki should clarify one
> thing: a certain amount of involvement in Fedora should be taken into
> account if one wants to become a packager.
>
> I don't think it's not entirely clear that by publishing a package in
> Fedora repositories implies 1) maintain the package updated, 2) maintain
> the specfile in line with future Packaging Guidelines changes and 3) get
> in touch with the community to handle possible bugs filed by other users
> which install your package.
>
> There must be a section that clearly states that if the scope is "I made
> this piece of software and I'll fire through Fedora repositories, then
> goodbye", or "I use this software, I'll push into Fedora repositories
> and never touch it again until this version is fine for me" there are
> other means to achieve that.
>
> That's the reason for having the "sponsorship barrier" at joining time,
> that, I know very well, it's quite scaring if you're not English mother
> tongue. Anyway, after a successful review of a package, one could get in
> touch with some sponsors by filing a ticket in the appropriate page [1]
> and some nice folk will help them to enter the packager group.
>
> Mattia
>
> [1] https://pagure.io/packager-sponsors/
>
>
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Re: New RPM submission

[Bryce Carson]

Awesome. I'll follow that suggestion and review my Technical Writing notes
from the Fall! :)

--
Badger Badger Badger Mushroom Mushroom
A ssnake

On Mon., May 3, 2021, 8:36 a.m. Matthew Miller, 
wrote:

> On Mon, May 03, 2021 at 04:29:54PM +0200, Vít Ondruch wrote:
> > Right, but this sub- thread it about
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Join_the_package_collection_maintainers
>
> Ah, sorry. I got lost. :)
>
> But now that you mention it, I'd like to see that migrated to the new docs
> system too.
>
> --
> Matthew Miller
> 
> Fedora Project Leader
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