Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2016-08-12)

2016-08-14 Thread Peter Robinson
On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 12:34 AM, Kevin Kofler  wrote:
> Stephen Gallagher wrote:
>> * #1592 - Redefinition of what constitutes a secondary/alternate
>> ~  architecture in Fedora  (sgallagh, 16:04:18)
>> ~  * AGREED: FESCo approves the new alternative architectures plan (+7,
>> ~0, -0)  (sgallagh, 16:11:29)
>
> Sigh! So the proposal to break Fedora got unanimously approved without
> restrictions. I wonder why you requested a mailing list thread to be opened
> at all, given that you simply completely ignored the mailing list feedback.
> The "feedback request" from the proposal owners was already worded as if the
> mailing list thread was only a formality, and it looks like they were right.

Not going the way you wanted it to and ignoring the email thread are
not the same thing.

There was feedback that was taken into account as part of the proposal
that came from the mailing list, given I'm the proposal owner (but not
the only one involved) I did not vote (and I'm not on FESCo to vote
anyway) so I can't comment on behalf of FESCo as to whether that feed
back had any impact on their vote.

> I still do not see why every exotic architecture no real user cares about
> has to fail our builds instead of being built in its own koji-shadow sandbox
> where it can only break itself. There was no satisfactory answer to that.
> Our actual users use x86 machines. Delaying the builds for the machines our
> users use by some indefinite time because of some obscure toolchain bug
> affecting some toy machine only a couple people at Red Hat or at some
> university have sitting on their desk helps no one. Real users do NOT use
> dev boards without even a case, FPGA development kits, or similar developer
> toys. They use "a computer", which out there in the real world means x86.

See that's where we disagree, there are 1000s of users that use those,
you could also argue that the vast majority of Fedora instances aren't
desktop platforms but servers/VMs and other non desktop usecases (I
know of one company running Fedora on over a million ARM devices) yet
we still care about and ship various desktops too or some of the weird
18K odd source packages that we also distribute the binaries for.
There are users of these out in the wider Fedora ecosystem that
benefit from all these different options and even though they don't
fit in YOUR definition of a "real world" user it doesn't mean they're
not. Fedora is very much about options and diversity whether that be
people, language, location, desktop or architecture :-)

Peter
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Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2016-08-12)

2016-08-14 Thread Tom Hughes

On 14/08/16 08:49, Peter Robinson wrote:


See that's where we disagree, there are 1000s of users that use those,
you could also argue that the vast majority of Fedora instances aren't
desktop platforms but servers/VMs and other non desktop usecases (I
know of one company running Fedora on over a million ARM devices) yet
we still care about and ship various desktops too or some of the weird
18K odd source packages that we also distribute the binaries for.
There are users of these out in the wider Fedora ecosystem that
benefit from all these different options and even though they don't
fit in YOUR definition of a "real world" user it doesn't mean they're
not. Fedora is very much about options and diversity whether that be
people, language, location, desktop or architecture :-)


I'm sure most of us would love to support all these platforms in 
principle but that doesn't really help with the practical problems of 
trying to do so.


The change proposal states, for example, that there is either access to 
hardware or the secondary architecture teams will help but that doesn't 
really square with my experience. The secondary architecture teams just 
open bugs and punt things back to the packager and none of these new 
architectures seems to have any hardware listed in the wiki.


So with that I'll go back to trying to find a way to reproduce the 
aarch64 bug you reported on one of my packages the other day...


Tom

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Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2016-08-12)

2016-08-14 Thread Peter Robinson
>> See that's where we disagree, there are 1000s of users that use those,
>> you could also argue that the vast majority of Fedora instances aren't
>> desktop platforms but servers/VMs and other non desktop usecases (I
>> know of one company running Fedora on over a million ARM devices) yet
>> we still care about and ship various desktops too or some of the weird
>> 18K odd source packages that we also distribute the binaries for.
>> There are users of these out in the wider Fedora ecosystem that
>> benefit from all these different options and even though they don't
>> fit in YOUR definition of a "real world" user it doesn't mean they're
>> not. Fedora is very much about options and diversity whether that be
>> people, language, location, desktop or architecture :-)
>
>
> I'm sure most of us would love to support all these platforms in principle
> but that doesn't really help with the practical problems of trying to do so.
>
> The change proposal states, for example, that there is either access to
> hardware or the secondary architecture teams will help but that doesn't
> really square with my experience. The secondary architecture teams just open
> bugs and punt things back to the packager and none of these new
> architectures seems to have any hardware listed in the wiki.

The "just open bugs and punt things back to the packager" is
completely unture. There's bugs opened for tracking purposes, in a lot
of cases the maintainers know the packages better and often fix it,
but there are 100s of packages fixed by the secondary teams all the
time just look through the average rawhide or branched reports and
there's names of those teams appearing all the time!

On the hardware side of things there's numerous ways go getting access
to hardware, we now have a pair of very large Power8 boxes in the
Fedora cloud instance, there's a number of universities that provide
access to IBM Power and Z-series devices and Linaro has a means of
providing access to aarch64 hardware, and there will soon be aarch64
hardware in the Fedora cloud instance too.

> So with that I'll go back to trying to find a way to reproduce the aarch64
> bug you reported on one of my packages the other day...
>
> Tom
>
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Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2016-08-12)

2016-08-14 Thread Kevin Kofler
Peter Robinson wrote:
> There was feedback that was taken into account as part of the proposal
> that came from the mailing list,

Only in the form of more writeup in the Q&A section giving various excuses 
for not addressing any of the fatal flaws that were pointed out in the 
thread (such as the "fail on one = fail on all" principle). You did not 
change anything whatsoever in the substance of the proposal.

> See that's where we disagree, there are 1000s of users that use those,
> you could also argue that the vast majority of Fedora instances aren't
> desktop platforms but servers/VMs and other non desktop usecases (I
> know of one company running Fedora on over a million ARM devices) yet

You mean the same company whose (x86-based) 1.0 hardware FESCo rendered 
almost worthless by not doing anything about the accumulating bloat that is 
increasing the size of all our images from release to release (starting from 
the "Mini"DebugInfo "feature" that globally increased the size of all 
packages for very little benefit, but that has also served as a general 
precedent for making bloat that makes an image fail its size target always 
the fault of the image's size target rather than of the bloat) and thus 
making it almost impossible to stick a current Fedora into its limited 
storage space? How long until that issue hits 1.5 too?

> we still care about and ship various desktops too or some of the weird
> 18K odd source packages that we also distribute the binaries for.
> There are users of these out in the wider Fedora ecosystem that
> benefit from all these different options and even though they don't
> fit in YOUR definition of a "real world" user it doesn't mean they're
> not. Fedora is very much about options and diversity whether that be
> people, language, location, desktop or architecture :-)

What does diversity of people have to do with this? By your strange 
definition of "diversity", we should try to run Fedora on a toaster, or even 
on a dead badger. We would NOT be excluding any ethnic or social group of 
people by supporting only x86. CPUs do not have human rights. So I sense a 
strawman (or worse, an attempt to defame me by putting my position into a 
completely different context).

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Access to hardware (was: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2016-08-12))

2016-08-14 Thread Björn Persson
Peter Robinson wrote:
> On the hardware side of things there's numerous ways go getting access
> to hardware, we now have a pair of very large Power8 boxes in the
> Fedora cloud instance, there's a number of universities that provide
> access to IBM Power and Z-series devices and Linaro has a means of
> providing access to aarch64 hardware, and there will soon be aarch64
> hardware in the Fedora cloud instance too.

Access to some of that hardware could have helped me recently when I was
working on GPRbuild. Out of the four secondary architectures, I
eventually managed to get one of them hobbling in an emulator so that I
could troubleshoot. Then I probed the Koji instances with specially
crafted scratch builds to get the details I needed for the other
architectures. It was a quite time-consuming procedure.

Would it be possible to mention those boxes on
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Machine_Resources_For_Package_Maintainers
so that packagers can find out how to access them?

Björn Persson


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Removing aliases on bugzilla

2016-08-14 Thread Igor Gnatenko
Hi,

Probably you've seen some strange activity from me like removing
aliases from old (and new) bugs.

Actually there is bug in bugzilla which prevents searching by text
which is written in some bug's alias. Unfortunately I didn't realize
when I ran script that it will send ton of notifications and that it's
actual bug of buzilla (I thought it's a feature).

Sorry for noise.
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Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2016-08-12)

2016-08-14 Thread Richard W.M. Jones
On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 11:29:13AM +0100, Peter Robinson wrote:
> On the hardware side of things there's numerous ways go getting access
> to hardware, we now have a pair of very large Power8 boxes in the
> Fedora cloud instance,

Peter, is it possible to set up long-term access to a POWER virtual
machine?  By this I mean, I want to create a cloud instance that will
persist for months/years.

Of course I won't actually be using it that whole time, it'll be
almost entirely idle.

I find this helps me with debugging because I don't have to recreate
the environment whenever I need to debug something.

Rich.

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Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2016-08-12)

2016-08-14 Thread Kevin Fenzi
On Sun, 14 Aug 2016 19:52:21 +0100
"Richard W.M. Jones"  wrote:

> On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 11:29:13AM +0100, Peter Robinson wrote:
> > On the hardware side of things there's numerous ways go getting
> > access to hardware, we now have a pair of very large Power8 boxes
> > in the Fedora cloud instance,  
> 
> Peter, is it possible to set up long-term access to a POWER virtual
> machine?  By this I mean, I want to create a cloud instance that will
> persist for months/years.
> 
> Of course I won't actually be using it that whole time, it'll be
> almost entirely idle.
> 
> I find this helps me with debugging because I don't have to recreate
> the environment whenever I need to debug something.

I'm planning (probibly next week, if I can kick this flu) to setup a
ppc64le test machine, just like the other test machines... Hopefully
that will help out. 

We can do the same for aarch64 in a few weeks when we have them
available in the right place. 

kevin


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Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2016-08-12)

2016-08-14 Thread Florian Weimer

On 08/14/2016 08:52 PM, Richard W.M. Jones wrote:

On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 11:29:13AM +0100, Peter Robinson wrote:

On the hardware side of things there's numerous ways go getting access
to hardware, we now have a pair of very large Power8 boxes in the
Fedora cloud instance,


Peter, is it possible to set up long-term access to a POWER virtual
machine?  By this I mean, I want to create a cloud instance that will
persist for months/years.

Of course I won't actually be using it that whole time, it'll be
almost entirely idle.


Why can't you automate the machine setup?

Wouldn't be the first thing after not using it for a few months a 
reinstallation anyway, to be in a known-good state?


Florian
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Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2016-08-12)

2016-08-14 Thread Kevin Fenzi
On Sun, 14 Aug 2016 01:34:18 +0200
Kevin Kofler  wrote:

> Sigh! So the proposal to break Fedora got unanimously approved
> without restrictions. I wonder why you requested a mailing list
> thread to be opened at all, given that you simply completely ignored
> the mailing list feedback. The "feedback request" from the proposal
> owners was already worded as if the mailing list thread was only a
> formality, and it looks like they were right.

Well, I can't speak for all of FESCo, but I read all the feedback. 

> I still do not see why every exotic architecture no real user cares
> about has to fail our builds instead of being built in its own
> koji-shadow sandbox where it can only break itself. 

It's not "every exotic architecture", it's the alternative arches that
have for the last several Fedora releases releases on or very close to
the same day as primary.

> There was no
> satisfactory answer to that. Our actual users use x86 machines.
> Delaying the builds for the machines our users use by some indefinite
> time

I don't think anyone said "indefinite" time. As with anything else
common sense should be used. If the bug cannot be fixed and is holding
back something important you can exclude arch to get the other builds
flowing while the bug is worked on. 

> because of some obscure toolchain bug affecting some toy machine
> only a couple people at Red Hat or at some university have sitting on
> their desk helps no one. Real users do NOT use dev boards without
> even a case, FPGA development kits, or similar developer toys. They
> use "a computer", which out there in the real world means x86.

No, it helps everyone. Many bugs on these other arches turn out to
expose bugs on x86 too. If we wanted to change and be a distro for only
the most popular things we would just drop Fedora and focus on EPEL. 

As always we can also see how the addition of aarch64 goes and if it
presents burden revisit things.

The sky: not falling. 

kevin


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Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2016-08-12)

2016-08-14 Thread Kevin Fenzi
On Sun, 14 Aug 2016 12:57:52 -0600
Kevin Fenzi  wrote:

> I'm planning (probibly next week, if I can kick this flu) to setup a
> ppc64le test machine, just like the other test machines... Hopefully
> that will help out. 
> 
> We can do the same for aarch64 in a few weeks when we have them
> available in the right place. 

Oh, and I forgot, we are working on giving access to our private cloud
to members of some groups (starting with packager/qa). Once we do that
anyone who is a packager can just spin up an instance for testing.

kevin


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Re: Removing aliases on bugzilla

2016-08-14 Thread Kevin Kofler
Igor Gnatenko wrote:
> Probably you've seen some strange activity from me like removing
> aliases from old (and new) bugs.
> 
> Actually there is bug in bugzilla which prevents searching by text
> which is written in some bug's alias. Unfortunately I didn't realize
> when I ran script that it will send ton of notifications and that it's
> actual bug of buzilla (I thought it's a feature).
> 
> Sorry for noise.

Removing those aliases is a horrible idea to begin with. Those aliases are 
an extremely convenient way to quickly find the review request for a 
package. (They should really be required for all review requests.)

Kevin Kofler
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Re: Removing aliases on bugzilla

2016-08-14 Thread Jeff Fearn
On 15/08/16 03:38, Igor Gnatenko wrote:
> Actually there is bug in bugzilla which prevents searching by text
> which is written in some bug's alias. 

Is there a bug open for this?

Cheers, Jeff.

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Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2016-08-12)

2016-08-14 Thread Kevin Kofler
Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> No, it helps everyone. Many bugs on these other arches turn out to
> expose bugs on x86 too.

All the ones I ran into were bugs or obscure limitations in the toolchain 
that were entirely target-specific. They weren't even bugs in the package 
that failed to build, let alone ones that would also affect x86.

For the rare latent bug that gets uncovered by a build failure on a 
secondary architecture, detecting it in koji-shadow is good enough, it does 
not have to fail the x86 build immediately.

Kevin Kofler
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Re: Removing aliases on bugzilla

2016-08-14 Thread Adam Williamson
On Sun, 2016-08-14 at 19:38 +0200, Igor Gnatenko wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Probably you've seen some strange activity from me like removing
> aliases from old (and new) bugs.
> 
> Actually there is bug in bugzilla which prevents searching by text
> which is written in some bug's alias. Unfortunately I didn't realize
> when I ran script that it will send ton of notifications and that it's
> actual bug of buzilla (I thought it's a feature).
> 
> Sorry for noise.

Please do not remove any aliases from blocker tracker bugs, they are a
vital part of the process.
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Re: Removing aliases on bugzilla

2016-08-14 Thread Parag Nemade
Hi,

On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 11:08 PM, Igor Gnatenko  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Probably you've seen some strange activity from me like removing
> aliases from old (and new) bugs.
>
> Actually there is bug in bugzilla which prevents searching by text
> which is written in some bug's alias. Unfortunately I didn't realize
> when I ran script that it will send ton of notifications and that it's
> actual bug of buzilla (I thought it's a feature).

Can you let us know about what bug are you seeing in bugzilla? Have
you reported it already so that bugzilla maintainers can look at it?

Please don't remove aliases they are useful to many people.

Regards,
Parag.
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Re: Removing aliases on bugzilla

2016-08-14 Thread Igor Gnatenko
I didn't remove bugs from any tracker bugs. Only for closed bugs with flag
fedora-review+.

-Igor Gnatenko

On Aug 15, 2016 3:12 AM, "Adam Williamson" 
wrote:

> On Sun, 2016-08-14 at 19:38 +0200, Igor Gnatenko wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Probably you've seen some strange activity from me like removing
> > aliases from old (and new) bugs.
> >
> > Actually there is bug in bugzilla which prevents searching by text
> > which is written in some bug's alias. Unfortunately I didn't realize
> > when I ran script that it will send ton of notifications and that it's
> > actual bug of buzilla (I thought it's a feature).
> >
> > Sorry for noise.
>
> Please do not remove any aliases from blocker tracker bugs, they are a
> vital part of the process.
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Re: Removing aliases on bugzilla

2016-08-14 Thread Igor Gnatenko
Will open it today.

-Igor Gnatenko

On Aug 15, 2016 1:23 AM, "Jeff Fearn"  wrote:

> On 15/08/16 03:38, Igor Gnatenko wrote:
> > Actually there is bug in bugzilla which prevents searching by text
> > which is written in some bug's alias.
>
> Is there a bug open for this?
>
> Cheers, Jeff.
>
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Re: Removing aliases on bugzilla

2016-08-14 Thread Florian Weimer

On 08/14/2016 07:38 PM, Igor Gnatenko wrote:


Probably you've seen some strange activity from me like removing
aliases from old (and new) bugs.

Actually there is bug in bugzilla which prevents searching by text
which is written in some bug's alias. Unfortunately I didn't realize
when I ran script that it will send ton of notifications and that it's
actual bug of buzilla (I thought it's a feature).


I believe I have recovered the aliases which were removed, in case 
someone wants to undo the damage.


Florian

 bug_id  | removed  
-+--
 1356907 | rust
 1302909 | drupal8
 1288739 | petpvc
 1290995 | python-visionegg-quest
 1123645 | mingw-libgee
 1327218 | libvterm
 122 | python-prov
 1363935 | python-yara
 1279579 | itktools
 1123771 | mingw-rest
 1336159 | golang-github-rubyist-tracerx
  237741 | HTTP-Request-AsCGI
 1082552 | mahout-collection-codegen-plugin
 1245022 | ghc-base-compat
 1151818 | nodejs-typeahead.js
 1362265 | yara
 1353000 | gns3-server
 1279176 | isis
 1285112 | DiffusionKurtosisFit
  241078 | perl-Net-SSH2
 1228089 | zetacomponents/base
  472083 | perl-boolean
  838775 | ghc-css-text
 1320725 | phonon-qt5
  846850 | rosa-launcher
  462982 | buffer
  886320 | mingw-nspr
  996186 | python-argh
 1016258 | mingw-log4c
  735133 | kalzium
 1136519 | f21-kde-theme
  873454 | mate-image-viewer
 1320583 | swiftmailer/swiftmailer
  497192 | polkit-qt
  910526 | kreversi
  995167 | lokalize
 1286460 | mcpanel
  282261 | isync-review
  452636 | mod_proxy_html
  691894 | pyrit
  952444 | drupal7-i18n_boxes
 1021080 | Horde_Socket_Client
  454416 | mingw32-zlib
  566406 | packETH
  693037 | perl-Test-HasVersion
  492250 | perl-Git-CPAN-Patch
  666889 | perl-Package-Pkg
  851793 | mingw-fftw
  886221 | python-dogpile-core
  910481 | bomber
  587915 | perl-Dir-Self
 1327160 | unibilium
  910388 | kpat
  975281 | drupal7-metatag
  455172 | perl-Convert-Ber-r.
  853689 | libmateui
  820659 | python-ufc
  438406 | ufiformat
  735147 | ktouch
  520463 | perl-common-sense
  670558 | ape
  924897 | drupal7-boxes
  235234 | aoetools
 1304145 | kf5-libkexiv2
  575491 | perl-Test-SharedFork
  243978 | cjet-review
  985065 | peg-solitaire
  236539 | perl-Math-Vec
 1228091 | zetacomponents/console-tools
  567937 | mpir
  962423 | writerperfect
 1015909 | org.abego.treelayout.core
  629551 | ghc-gio
  235236 | vblade
  499066 | perl-Text-Context
  514911 | mvali...@redhat.com
 1285514 | php-paragonie-random-compat
 1003280 | postscriptbarcode
 1288756 | python-amico
  785448 | horde-autoloader
  231753 | perl-DBD-Mock
 1262469 | php-patchwork-utf8
 1276910 | python-transforms3d
 1278673 | octave-jsonlab
  987731 | qt4pas
  498887 | perl-Class-Mix
 1258430 | dolphin
  316971 | centerim-review
 1332717 | kf5-incidenceeditor
  735138 | khangman
  498920 | perl-HTML-Toc
 1118273 | Horde_OpenXchange
  737228 | ghc-data-default
  851180 | mingw-lcms
 1086445 | dbusmenu-qt5
 1277441 | nette/safe-stream
  947640 | snappy-player
  730033 | perl-autobox-dump
  785473 | Horde_Perms
  713361 | ghc-pcre-light
  222597 | pear-Crypt-CHAP
  765953 | qyoto
 1319522 | kactivitymanagerd
  234812 | tcpreplay
  233742 | perl-Math-Spline
  447844 | krazy2
  714326 | libtpcmisc
 167 | php-mtdowling-transducers
  844154 | libmatekeyring
  648100 | ghc-xml
 1295260 | php-mnapoli-phpunit-easymock
  467854 | parprouted
  710907 | oct-specfun
 1060989 | ghc-io-streams
 1291341 | qt5-qtstyleplugins
  454410 | mingw32-gcc
  568052 | normaliz
  464054 | projectM-pulseaudio
 1004760 | ColPack
 120 | python-pydotplus
  499087 | perl-Locale-PO
 1122325 | mingw-libtheora
  491616 | mingw32-zfstream
  894563 | Horde_SpellChecker
 1149289 | telepathy-qt
 1289634 | libchardet
  882561 | mate-bluetooth
  903826 | perl-Net-Domain-TLD
 1277470 | nette/application
  491647 | taglib-extras
  495336 | perl-Sort-Key
 1332254 | kf5-calendarsupport
  970034 | libmm-qt
  875308 | mate-menu-editor
  251805 | orafce
 1009375 | ghc-hslua
  959664 | drupal7-language_cookie
  498397 | perl-Devel-REPL
  713677 | klt
  436683 | xmltoman-review
  720804 | kross-interpreters
  959666 | drupal7-admin_language
  589167 | perl-ParseTemplate
  199029 | jokosher
  261801 | xyz-gallery-review
  771052 | kde-workspace
 1048260 | qt5-qtlocation
 1105550 | kf5-kdoctools
  504076 | libiodbc
 1278293 | python-moss
  567733 | marave
  495436 | perl-File-Pid
(152 rows)

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Re: Removing aliases on bugzilla

2016-08-14 Thread Igor Gnatenko
Me too.

-Igor Gnatenko

On Aug 15, 2016 8:41 AM, "Florian Weimer"  wrote:

> On 08/14/2016 07:38 PM, Igor Gnatenko wrote:
>
> Probably you've seen some strange activity from me like removing
>> aliases from old (and new) bugs.
>>
>> Actually there is bug in bugzilla which prevents searching by text
>> which is written in some bug's alias. Unfortunately I didn't realize
>> when I ran script that it will send ton of notifications and that it's
>> actual bug of buzilla (I thought it's a feature).
>>
>
> I believe I have recovered the aliases which were removed, in case someone
> wants to undo the damage.
>
> Florian
>
>
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