Re: Who moderates users...@openoffice.apache.org?
Hello, Am 08.11.21 um 20:13 schrieb Jörg Schmidt: I'm afraid, Marcus, we have a problem of understanding what "all" means. For me, this is the community and not a few privileged people who are in PMC. Maybe some may see it as a privilege. I see it as a (little) burden I bear voluntarily. The PMC is not any kind of peerage or order. It's a necessary working group. Kind regards Michael OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Who moderates users...@openoffice.apache.org?
Am 08.11.21 um 20:13 schrieb Jörg Schmidt: Hello Marcus, -Original Message- From: Marcus [mailto:marcus.m...@wtnet.de] Sent: Monday, November 08, 2021 5:57 PM To: dev@openoffice.apache.org Subject: Re: Who moderates users...@openoffice.apache.org? Am 08.11.21 um 07:33 schrieb Jörg Schmidt: -Original Message- From: Marcus [mailto:marcus.m...@wtnet.de] Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2021 7:48 PM To: dev@openoffice.apache.org Subject: Re: Who moderates users...@openoffice.apache.org? when you want to talk about this with names then I invite you to discuss this via private@. with pleasure, but not on private@, but by PM. sorry but please write to private@, so that we *all* can have the same information and can discuss it. I'm afraid, Marcus, we have a problem of understanding what "all" means. For me, this is the community and not a few privileged people who are in PMC. I don't know in which circle you see a PMC. It's not a club of old men or a secret organization like Illuminati or any other voodoo. Please see the mail from Dave Fisher he posted on Nov, 07th. Why I no longer want to write to private@, namely because my experiences with requests to private@ are negative, I told you by PM. For me, the greatest possible openness has always been a 'trademark' of the ASF, but with AOO I experience that the PMC tries to build up more insider knowledge than is necessary. Knowledge that should actually be known and discussed within the entire community. Sorry I don't know what you mean with "inside knowledge". Some tasks have to be handled by the PMC only (e.g., people issues, binding release voting, trademark) . This is the rule that comes from the ASF itself. So please excuse me, but I am not interested in secret talks with the PMC. And I've no interest to talk to you in private about topic(s) that affects actually more people. Or what do you expect from me? We both talk and I take it further to someone else, then further and further? I hope that this is not the thing you have in mind. Finally: When you have a topic to discuss that affects the PMC, then you have to talk with the PMC. Marcus - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
RE: Who moderates users...@openoffice.apache.org?
Hello, > -Original Message- > From: Dr. Michael Stehmann [mailto:anw...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de] > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2021 10:58 AM > To: dev@openoffice.apache.org > Subject: Re: Who moderates users...@openoffice.apache.org? > > Hello, > > Am 08.11.21 um 20:13 schrieb Jörg Schmidt: > > > I'm afraid, Marcus, we have a problem of understanding what > "all" means. For me, this is the community and not a few > privileged people who are in PMC. > > Maybe some may see it as a privilege. I see it as a (little) burden I > bear voluntarily. It is a pity that not everyone is allowed to shoulder this "extra" burden if they want to... > The PMC is not any kind of peerage or order. The self-image of the AOO-PMC is different, as I have often experienced. my mistake, in the past, was to compare the PMC with a "leadership" in the conventional sense (which is why I was also irritated by PMCs with a large number of members in other ASF projects). Jörg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
RE: Who moderates users...@openoffice.apache.org?
> -Original Message- > From: Marcus [mailto:marcus.m...@wtnet.de] > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2021 11:44 AM > To: dev@openoffice.apache.org > Subject: Re: Who moderates users...@openoffice.apache.org? > > I'm afraid, Marcus, we have a problem of understanding what > "all" means. For me, this is the community and not a few > privileged people who are in PMC. > > I don't know in which circle you see a PMC. It's not a club > of old men > or a secret organization like Illuminati or any other voodoo. I am only talking about the AOO PMC (not all ASF PMCs in general). I had given my assessment of this by PM and I am happy to repeat it here: "a PMC of a free project should be inspired by a spirit of freedom, openness and fairness to all, and not play tactical games like a business club where personal goodwill counts more than performance." > Sorry I don't know what you mean with "inside knowledge". Some tasks > have to be handled by the PMC only (e.g., people issues, > binding release > voting, trademark) . This is the rule that comes from the ASF itself. It is certainly not a rule of the ASF that a PMC is the place to make appointments to harm parts of the (general) community by poaching volunteers from them. Or do you think I am so simple-minded as to believe that poaching D. from the ProOO-Box was not discussed in advance? And if you think such 'tactical games' are right, at least ask yourself what the balance is. In any case, my conclusion is: the ProOO Box has lost an active contributor (and there was a bad atmosphere, which I very much regret), but the project still does not have a finished flyer. So both sides (de-AOO and ProOO-Box) have only suffered damage. > Or what do you expect from me? mayby your advice as a community and PMC member on how I should behave. > When you have a topic to discuss that affects the PMC, then > you have to > talk with the PMC. It is pointless to talk to the PMC because it refuses to even question its own inappropriate thinking and behaviour and understands every sufficiently noticeable criticism as an attack and emphasises things completely wrongly as a defence. For example, when I turned to private@ a long time ago to suggest certain personnel changes, the reaction was not constructive but an attack on my person with the insinuation that I wanted to speak disparagingly about the performance of individuals. The specific comparison made to me (which I do not wish to repeat publicly here) was in bad taste. Jörg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Who moderates users...@openoffice.apache.org?
Hi all, I am SO sick of these toxic threads of a certain person... I don't want to read his conspiracy theories anymore, but one thing: "D." has become committer and did stop his contributions shortly after. How should "D." become part of the PMC?! Let's stop this and go back to work and move on with the project instead of harming it. Regards, Matthias Am 09.11.21 um 10:58 schrieb Dr. Michael Stehmann: > Hello, > > Am 08.11.21 um 20:13 schrieb Jörg Schmidt: > >> I'm afraid, Marcus, we have a problem of understanding what "all" >> means. For me, this is the community and not a few privileged people >> who are in PMC. > > Maybe some may see it as a privilege. I see it as a (little) burden I > bear voluntarily. > > The PMC is not any kind of peerage or order. It's a necessary working > group. > > Kind regards > Michael > smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: Who moderates users...@openoffice.apache.org?
> On 11/09/2021 12:13 PM Matthias Seidel wrote: > Let's stop this and go back to work and move on with the project > instead of harming it. +1 Pedro - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Who moderates users...@openoffice.apache.org?
Am 09.11.21 um 13:13 schrieb Matthias Seidel: I am SO sick of these toxic threads of a certain person... I don't want to read his conspiracy theories anymore I also think I can say what I want. It's always understood differently and not trying to think about any attempt to change it. Let's stop this and go back to work and move on with the project instead of harming it. Good point. :-) Marcus Am 09.11.21 um 10:58 schrieb Dr. Michael Stehmann: Hello, Am 08.11.21 um 20:13 schrieb Jörg Schmidt: I'm afraid, Marcus, we have a problem of understanding what "all" means. For me, this is the community and not a few privileged people who are in PMC. Maybe some may see it as a privilege. I see it as a (little) burden I bear voluntarily. The PMC is not any kind of peerage or order. It's a necessary working group. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Openssl, serf and curl
I've recently folded in openssl-1.1 to trunk and all branches, but this gets us in a corner. To support this version of openssl, we need to upgrade Serf. This means that we need to also update apr and apr-util as well as include a requirement that the build server also as SCons installed. This could be problematic, esp for those older, legacy systems that we want to continue to support. One alternative is to simply drop Serf completely; we already require curl, and we could start using curl for the WebDav functionality instead of it being the (sole, afaict) reason for Serf. The focus would be on ./main/ucb/source/ucp/webdav and migrating it from Serf to curl... Comments? Suggestions? Alternatives? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Openssl, serf and curl
Hi Jim, Am 09.11.21 um 21:50 schrieb Jim Jagielski: > I've recently folded in openssl-1.1 to trunk and all branches, but this gets > us in a corner. > > To support this version of openssl, we need to upgrade Serf. This means that > we need to also update apr and apr-util as well as include a requirement that > the build server also as SCons installed. This could be problematic, esp for > those older, legacy systems that we want to continue to support. > > One alternative is to simply drop Serf completely; we already require curl, > and we could start using curl for the WebDav functionality instead of it > being the (sole, afaict) reason for Serf. +1 simply for reducing the dependencies on those various libraries. If it can be done with curl we should try it. Matthias > > The focus would be on ./main/ucb/source/ucp/webdav and migrating it from Serf > to curl... > > Comments? Suggestions? Alternatives? > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org > smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: Openssl, serf and curl
Am 09.11.21 um 22:31 schrieb Matthias Seidel: Am 09.11.21 um 21:50 schrieb Jim Jagielski: I've recently folded in openssl-1.1 to trunk and all branches, but this gets us in a corner. To support this version of openssl, we need to upgrade Serf. This means that we need to also update apr and apr-util as well as include a requirement that the build server also as SCons installed. This could be problematic, esp for those older, legacy systems that we want to continue to support. One alternative is to simply drop Serf completely; we already require curl, and we could start using curl for the WebDav functionality instead of it being the (sole, afaict) reason for Serf. +1 simply for reducing the dependencies on those various libraries. If it can be done with curl we should try it. yes, please try it. Marcus - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Who moderates users...@openoffice.apache.org?
Am 07.11.21 um 21:18 schrieb Dave: On 07/11/2021 19:42, Dave Fisher wrote: Sorry to put it this way Dave, but this is the same answer that I have had received from you and other PMC members previously. If your statement is true, then we and the ASF have a very serious and extreme privacy challenge here: https://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html#openoffice In my view anyone who "steps up to he plate" for ANY role in an OPEN source project should not have any concerns about being identified a contributor and their role that project. I am not ashamed of being identified as a (very small, relatively unimportant) contributor to the AOO project and I suggest that ANYONE who is wishes to adopt this underhanded, secretive approach, should step away from the project. I agree about every role except moderation. I moderate 27 different Apache Mailing Lists only one of which is an AOO list. If the community wishes to disclose all of the moderators that would be an acceptable outcome. I read your words, which are the same as you and other PMC members have previously stated, but I still do not read any explanation as to the rational of why moderators should hold any more of an exclusive or covert role within the ASF. Let's just put this down to my natural stupidity and end this thread, because there is nothing to be gained by perusing the subject. normally I would agree. However, I'm curious to know what you mean with "... why moderators should hold any more of an exclusive or covert role within the ASF ..." and why you think there is something secret? A moderator is just a committer as you and me. Some are also a PMC member or maybe also supporter/committer/member of other ASF projects. But thats it. I volunteer to create a Wiki page to show who is moderating which mailing list(s) - if the community think it has a value. Marcus - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Who moderates users...@openoffice.apache.org?
Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 9, 2021, at 3:48 PM, Marcus wrote: > > Am 07.11.21 um 21:18 schrieb Dave: >> On 07/11/2021 19:42, Dave Fisher wrote: Sorry to put it this way Dave, but this is the same answer that I have had received from you and other PMC members previously. If your statement is true, then we and the ASF have a very serious and extreme privacy challenge here: https://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html#openoffice In my view anyone who "steps up to he plate" for ANY role in an OPEN source project should not have any concerns about being identified a contributor and their role that project. I am not ashamed of being identified as a (very small, relatively unimportant) contributor to the AOO project and I suggest that ANYONE who is wishes to adopt this underhanded, secretive approach, should step away from the project. >>> I agree about every role except moderation. I moderate 27 different Apache >>> Mailing Lists only one of which is an AOO list. >>> >>> If the community wishes to disclose all of the moderators that would be an >>> acceptable outcome. >> I read your words, which are the same as you and other PMC members have >> previously stated, but I still do not read any explanation as to the >> rational of why moderators should hold any more of an exclusive or >> covert role within the ASF. >> Let's just put this down to my natural stupidity and end this thread, >> because there is nothing to be gained by perusing the subject. > > normally I would agree. However, I'm curious to know what you mean with "... > why moderators should hold any more of an exclusive or covert role within the > ASF ..." and why you think there is something secret? > > A moderator is just a committer as you and me. Some are also a PMC member or > maybe also supporter/committer/member of other ASF projects. But thats it. > > I volunteer to create a Wiki page to show who is moderating which mailing > list(s) - if the community think it has a value. That’s ok as long as it is made clear NOT to ever contact moderators directly about the mailing list. I hope you see the conundrum being presented. Regards, Dave > > Marcus > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
RE: Who moderates users...@openoffice.apache.org?
Hallo Mathias, > -Original Message- > From: Matthias Seidel [mailto:matthias.sei...@hamburg.de] > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2021 1:14 PM > To: dev@openoffice.apache.org > Subject: Re: Who moderates users...@openoffice.apache.org? > > Hi all, > > I am SO sick of these toxic threads of a certain person... > > I don't want to read his conspiracy theories anymore, I am not talking about conspiracy theories here. Stop making such insinuations. > "D." has become committer and did stop his contributions > shortly after. You know the other contexts very well. > How should "D." become part of the PMC?! Not at all, because I did not claim anything like that (=D. should become part of the PMC). Please stop putting untrue statements in my mouth. Jörg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
RE: Who moderates users...@openoffice.apache.org?
> -Original Message- > From: Marcus [mailto:marcus.m...@wtnet.de] > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2021 6:30 PM > To: dev@openoffice.apache.org > Subject: Re: Who moderates users...@openoffice.apache.org? > > Am 09.11.21 um 13:13 schrieb Matthias Seidel: > > I am SO sick of these toxic threads of a certain person... > > > > I don't want to read his conspiracy theories anymore > > I also think I can say what I want. It's always understood > differently > and not trying to think about any attempt to change it. > > > Let's stop this and go back to work and move on with the project > > instead of harming it. > > Good point. :-) And the fact that the voluntary work of others (=ProOO-Box) is being affected is of no interest? I can still remember what it was like when OOo was in production, without PMC and without the know-it-all attitude of certain privileged project members. Who was there at that time? And who was not, but today presumes to judge the performance of others? Jörg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
