"Maintainer" as an alias of PMC Member?
Hi, Random thought. You may find people not a native English speaker keep calling a PMC Member of Apache Foo "Foo PMC". We correct it so many times and spread the knowledge on list. But the trend I observed doesn't change and IMO it's hopeless to change. Since people tend to use a short ref and "committer" gives a one-word identifier first image, I'm trying to propose officially alias "PMC Member" as "Maintainer" so that our wording is aligned. What do you think? Best, tison.
Re: "Maintainer" as an alias of PMC Member?
Hi tison, Could you do this thread belongs apache Tomcat Regards Koti On Sat, 23 Mar 2024, 14:18 tison, wrote: > Hi, > > Random thought. > > You may find people not a native English speaker keep calling a PMC Member > of Apache Foo "Foo PMC". > > We correct it so many times and spread the knowledge on list. But the trend > I observed doesn't change and IMO it's hopeless to change. > > Since people tend to use a short ref and "committer" gives a one-word > identifier first image, I'm trying to propose officially alias "PMC Member" > as "Maintainer" so that our wording is aligned. > > What do you think? > > Best, > tison. >
Re: "Maintainer" as an alias of PMC Member?
I totally get the problem. I think if we can find a suitable title for PMC Member we could socialize it in a few years. Should have done this years ago. But "Maintainer" does not do it for me. Keep looking... Craig > On Mar 23, 2024, at 01:47, tison wrote: > > Hi, > > Random thought. > > You may find people not a native English speaker keep calling a PMC Member > of Apache Foo "Foo PMC". > > We correct it so many times and spread the knowledge on list. But the trend > I observed doesn't change and IMO it's hopeless to change. > > Since people tend to use a short ref and "committer" gives a one-word > identifier first image, I'm trying to propose officially alias "PMC Member" > as "Maintainer" so that our wording is aligned. > > What do you think? > > Best, > tison. Craig L Russell c...@apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: "Maintainer" as an alias of PMC Member?
I don't like "maintainer" here, a PMC member has a LOT more responsibility than the name implies IMO. "Maintainer" and "Contributor" feel almost interchangeable where a contributor might be a one-off and a maintainer more active. But we're splitting hair here IMO. Gary On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 3:17 PM Craig Russell wrote: > > I totally get the problem. I think if we can find a suitable title for PMC > Member we could socialize it in a few years. Should have done this years ago. > > But "Maintainer" does not do it for me. Keep looking... > > Craig > > > On Mar 23, 2024, at 01:47, tison wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > Random thought. > > > > You may find people not a native English speaker keep calling a PMC Member > > of Apache Foo "Foo PMC". > > > > We correct it so many times and spread the knowledge on list. But the trend > > I observed doesn't change and IMO it's hopeless to change. > > > > Since people tend to use a short ref and "committer" gives a one-word > > identifier first image, I'm trying to propose officially alias "PMC Member" > > as "Maintainer" so that our wording is aligned. > > > > What do you think? > > > > Best, > > tison. > > Craig L Russell > c...@apache.org > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: "Maintainer" as an alias of PMC Member?
Delegate? On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 3:42 PM Gary Gregory wrote: > > I don't like "maintainer" here, a PMC member has a LOT more > responsibility than the name implies IMO. > > "Maintainer" and "Contributor" feel almost interchangeable where a > contributor might be a one-off and a maintainer more active. But we're > splitting hair here IMO. > > Gary > > On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 3:17 PM Craig Russell wrote: > > > > I totally get the problem. I think if we can find a suitable title for PMC > > Member we could socialize it in a few years. Should have done this years > > ago. > > > > But "Maintainer" does not do it for me. Keep looking... > > > > Craig > > > > > On Mar 23, 2024, at 01:47, tison wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Random thought. > > > > > > You may find people not a native English speaker keep calling a PMC Member > > > of Apache Foo "Foo PMC". > > > > > > We correct it so many times and spread the knowledge on list. But the > > > trend > > > I observed doesn't change and IMO it's hopeless to change. > > > > > > Since people tend to use a short ref and "committer" gives a one-word > > > identifier first image, I'm trying to propose officially alias "PMC > > > Member" > > > as "Maintainer" so that our wording is aligned. > > > > > > What do you think? > > > > > > Best, > > > tison. > > > > Craig L Russell > > c...@apache.org > > > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: "Maintainer" as an alias of PMC Member?
Delegate from what to what? "member" is fine IMO. Gary On Sat, Mar 23, 2024, 4:14 PM Christopher wrote: > Delegate? > > On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 3:42 PM Gary Gregory > wrote: > > > > I don't like "maintainer" here, a PMC member has a LOT more > > responsibility than the name implies IMO. > > > > "Maintainer" and "Contributor" feel almost interchangeable where a > > contributor might be a one-off and a maintainer more active. But we're > > splitting hair here IMO. > > > > Gary > > > > On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 3:17 PM Craig Russell > wrote: > > > > > > I totally get the problem. I think if we can find a suitable title for > PMC Member we could socialize it in a few years. Should have done this > years ago. > > > > > > But "Maintainer" does not do it for me. Keep looking... > > > > > > Craig > > > > > > > On Mar 23, 2024, at 01:47, tison wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > Random thought. > > > > > > > > You may find people not a native English speaker keep calling a PMC > Member > > > > of Apache Foo "Foo PMC". > > > > > > > > We correct it so many times and spread the knowledge on list. But > the trend > > > > I observed doesn't change and IMO it's hopeless to change. > > > > > > > > Since people tend to use a short ref and "committer" gives a one-word > > > > identifier first image, I'm trying to propose officially alias "PMC > Member" > > > > as "Maintainer" so that our wording is aligned. > > > > > > > > What do you think? > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > tison. > > > > > > Craig L Russell > > > c...@apache.org > > > > > > > > > - > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > >
Re: "Maintainer" as an alias of PMC Member?
Delegate implies designated authority/responsibility, more than "maintainer" or "member", I think. The PMC role is delegated by the ASF Board (usually lazily, upon notice by existing PMC members). So, I think the word technically works here, but I won't argue that it's that much better than "PMC member", but I'll point out that "member" on its own has similar questions: member of what? The main argument I'll make is that we don't use the word delegate in any other context, so it's less likely to cause confusion. Others to consider might be: associate (PMC-A) or representative (PMC Rep, or PMC-R). I thought "maintainer" was okay, because it implies some responsibility for the project... rather than merely somebody who occasionally contributes. But the wording is a bit confusing, because you're not exactly a "PMC maintainer" or "somebody who maintains the PMC". A maintainer would maintain the project, not the PMC for the project. So, it's more accurate to say a "PMC member" is a " maintainer". So, it doesn't quite work to replace the word "member", which I think is part of the goal. Personally, I'm not particularly fond of any of these... I don't have a problem using the more explicit "PMC Member" either... but these are suggestions that might work if somebody were to really champion one of them to help reduce confusion for non-native English speakers, or anybody who tends to prefer nominative uses of language over descriptive uses and needs an unambiguous shortname. On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 4:34 PM Gary Gregory wrote: > > Delegate from what to what? > > "member" is fine IMO. > > Gary > > On Sat, Mar 23, 2024, 4:14 PM Christopher wrote: > > > Delegate? > > > > On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 3:42 PM Gary Gregory > > wrote: > > > > > > I don't like "maintainer" here, a PMC member has a LOT more > > > responsibility than the name implies IMO. > > > > > > "Maintainer" and "Contributor" feel almost interchangeable where a > > > contributor might be a one-off and a maintainer more active. But we're > > > splitting hair here IMO. > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 3:17 PM Craig Russell > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I totally get the problem. I think if we can find a suitable title for > > PMC Member we could socialize it in a few years. Should have done this > > years ago. > > > > > > > > But "Maintainer" does not do it for me. Keep looking... > > > > > > > > Craig > > > > > > > > > On Mar 23, 2024, at 01:47, tison wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > Random thought. > > > > > > > > > > You may find people not a native English speaker keep calling a PMC > > Member > > > > > of Apache Foo "Foo PMC". > > > > > > > > > > We correct it so many times and spread the knowledge on list. But > > the trend > > > > > I observed doesn't change and IMO it's hopeless to change. > > > > > > > > > > Since people tend to use a short ref and "committer" gives a one-word > > > > > identifier first image, I'm trying to propose officially alias "PMC > > Member" > > > > > as "Maintainer" so that our wording is aligned. > > > > > > > > > > What do you think? > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > tison. > > > > > > > > Craig L Russell > > > > c...@apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > - > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: "Maintainer" as an alias of PMC Member?
On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 4:59 PM Christopher wrote: > > Delegate implies designated authority/responsibility, more than > "maintainer" or "member", I think. The PMC role is delegated by the > ASF Board (usually lazily, upon notice by existing PMC members). So, I > think the word technically works here, but I won't argue that it's > that much better than "PMC member", but I'll point out that "member" > on its own has similar questions: member of what? Uh? Member of the PMC! Gary The main argument > I'll make is that we don't use the word delegate in any other context, > so it's less likely to cause confusion. > > Others to consider might be: associate (PMC-A) or representative (PMC > Rep, or PMC-R). > > I thought "maintainer" was okay, because it implies some > responsibility for the project... rather than merely somebody who > occasionally contributes. But the wording is a bit confusing, because > you're not exactly a "PMC maintainer" or "somebody who maintains the > PMC". A maintainer would maintain the project, not the PMC for the > project. So, it's more accurate to say a "PMC member" is a " name> maintainer". So, it doesn't quite work to replace the word > "member", which I think is part of the goal. > > Personally, I'm not particularly fond of any of these... I don't have > a problem using the more explicit "PMC Member" either... but these > are suggestions that might work if somebody were to really champion > one of them to help reduce confusion for non-native English speakers, > or anybody who tends to prefer nominative uses of language over > descriptive uses and needs an unambiguous shortname. > > On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 4:34 PM Gary Gregory wrote: > > > > Delegate from what to what? > > > > "member" is fine IMO. > > > > Gary > > > > On Sat, Mar 23, 2024, 4:14 PM Christopher wrote: > > > > > Delegate? > > > > > > On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 3:42 PM Gary Gregory > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I don't like "maintainer" here, a PMC member has a LOT more > > > > responsibility than the name implies IMO. > > > > > > > > "Maintainer" and "Contributor" feel almost interchangeable where a > > > > contributor might be a one-off and a maintainer more active. But we're > > > > splitting hair here IMO. > > > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 3:17 PM Craig Russell > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I totally get the problem. I think if we can find a suitable title for > > > PMC Member we could socialize it in a few years. Should have done this > > > years ago. > > > > > > > > > > But "Maintainer" does not do it for me. Keep looking... > > > > > > > > > > Craig > > > > > > > > > > > On Mar 23, 2024, at 01:47, tison wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > Random thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > You may find people not a native English speaker keep calling a PMC > > > Member > > > > > > of Apache Foo "Foo PMC". > > > > > > > > > > > > We correct it so many times and spread the knowledge on list. But > > > the trend > > > > > > I observed doesn't change and IMO it's hopeless to change. > > > > > > > > > > > > Since people tend to use a short ref and "committer" gives a > > > > > > one-word > > > > > > identifier first image, I'm trying to propose officially alias "PMC > > > Member" > > > > > > as "Maintainer" so that our wording is aligned. > > > > > > > > > > > > What do you think? > > > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > tison. > > > > > > > > > > Craig L Russell > > > > > c...@apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > - > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: "Maintainer" as an alias of PMC Member?
On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 6:06 PM Gary Gregory wrote: > > On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 4:59 PM Christopher wrote: > > > > Delegate implies designated authority/responsibility, more than > > "maintainer" or "member", I think. The PMC role is delegated by the > > ASF Board (usually lazily, upon notice by existing PMC members). So, I > > think the word technically works here, but I won't argue that it's > > that much better than "PMC member", but I'll point out that "member" > > on its own has similar questions: member of what? > > Uh? Member of the PMC! Based on this response, I'm not sure I was clear. My point was that you could answer the question similarly for member as you could for delegate: 1. Member of what? the PMC 2. Delegate to what? the PMC It's not exactly identical... maybe "delegate" raises more questions... I don't know what other people think when they hear that word. My point was that it was kind of similar... if used on its own. But used in conjunction with "PMC", it's not really unclear: "PMC Member" vs. "PMC Delegate" seems pretty much equivalent to me. Perhaps that's not the case for others. I can only speak to what happens in my own brain. In any case, like I said, I'm not particularly fond of it either. So I'll leave it to others to debate. It was just a suggestion. > > Gary > > The main argument > > I'll make is that we don't use the word delegate in any other context, > > so it's less likely to cause confusion. > > > > Others to consider might be: associate (PMC-A) or representative (PMC > > Rep, or PMC-R). > > > > I thought "maintainer" was okay, because it implies some > > responsibility for the project... rather than merely somebody who > > occasionally contributes. But the wording is a bit confusing, because > > you're not exactly a "PMC maintainer" or "somebody who maintains the > > PMC". A maintainer would maintain the project, not the PMC for the > > project. So, it's more accurate to say a "PMC member" is a " > name> maintainer". So, it doesn't quite work to replace the word > > "member", which I think is part of the goal. > > > > Personally, I'm not particularly fond of any of these... I don't have > > a problem using the more explicit "PMC Member" either... but these > > are suggestions that might work if somebody were to really champion > > one of them to help reduce confusion for non-native English speakers, > > or anybody who tends to prefer nominative uses of language over > > descriptive uses and needs an unambiguous shortname. > > > > On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 4:34 PM Gary Gregory wrote: > > > > > > Delegate from what to what? > > > > > > "member" is fine IMO. > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > On Sat, Mar 23, 2024, 4:14 PM Christopher wrote: > > > > > > > Delegate? > > > > > > > > On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 3:42 PM Gary Gregory > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I don't like "maintainer" here, a PMC member has a LOT more > > > > > responsibility than the name implies IMO. > > > > > > > > > > "Maintainer" and "Contributor" feel almost interchangeable where a > > > > > contributor might be a one-off and a maintainer more active. But we're > > > > > splitting hair here IMO. > > > > > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 3:17 PM Craig Russell > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I totally get the problem. I think if we can find a suitable title > > > > > > for > > > > PMC Member we could socialize it in a few years. Should have done this > > > > years ago. > > > > > > > > > > > > But "Maintainer" does not do it for me. Keep looking... > > > > > > > > > > > > Craig > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mar 23, 2024, at 01:47, tison wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Random thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You may find people not a native English speaker keep calling a > > > > > > > PMC > > > > Member > > > > > > > of Apache Foo "Foo PMC". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We correct it so many times and spread the knowledge on list. But > > > > the trend > > > > > > > I observed doesn't change and IMO it's hopeless to change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since people tend to use a short ref and "committer" gives a > > > > > > > one-word > > > > > > > identifier first image, I'm trying to propose officially alias > > > > > > > "PMC > > > > Member" > > > > > > > as "Maintainer" so that our wording is aligned. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What do you think? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > > tison. > > > > > > > > > > > > Craig L Russell > > > > > > c...@apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > > > > For additional commands, e-m
Re: "Maintainer" as an alias of PMC Member?
On Sat, 23 Mar 2024 at 22:26, Christopher wrote: > > On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 6:06 PM Gary Gregory wrote: > > > > On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 4:59 PM Christopher wrote: > > > > > > Delegate implies designated authority/responsibility, more than > > > "maintainer" or "member", I think. The PMC role is delegated by the > > > ASF Board (usually lazily, upon notice by existing PMC members). So, I > > > think the word technically works here, but I won't argue that it's > > > that much better than "PMC member", but I'll point out that "member" > > > on its own has similar questions: member of what? > > > > Uh? Member of the PMC! > > Based on this response, I'm not sure I was clear. My point was that > you could answer the question similarly for member as you could for > delegate: > 1. Member of what? the PMC > 2. Delegate to what? the PMC > > It's not exactly identical... maybe "delegate" raises more > questions... I don't know what other people think when they hear that > word. My point was that it was kind of similar... if used on its own. > But used in conjunction with "PMC", it's not really unclear: "PMC > Member" vs. "PMC Delegate" seems pretty much equivalent to me. Perhaps > that's not the case for others. I can only speak to what happens in my > own brain. > > In any case, like I said, I'm not particularly fond of it either. So > I'll leave it to others to debate. It was just a suggestion. Note that there are also ASF members (and generic ASF committers). It seems to me that any attempt to remove PMC from the name will result in ambiguity. > > > > Gary > > > > The main argument > > > I'll make is that we don't use the word delegate in any other context, > > > so it's less likely to cause confusion. > > > > > > Others to consider might be: associate (PMC-A) or representative (PMC > > > Rep, or PMC-R). > > > > > > I thought "maintainer" was okay, because it implies some > > > responsibility for the project... rather than merely somebody who > > > occasionally contributes. But the wording is a bit confusing, because > > > you're not exactly a "PMC maintainer" or "somebody who maintains the > > > PMC". A maintainer would maintain the project, not the PMC for the > > > project. So, it's more accurate to say a "PMC member" is a " > > name> maintainer". So, it doesn't quite work to replace the word > > > "member", which I think is part of the goal. > > > > > > Personally, I'm not particularly fond of any of these... I don't have > > > a problem using the more explicit "PMC Member" either... but these > > > are suggestions that might work if somebody were to really champion > > > one of them to help reduce confusion for non-native English speakers, > > > or anybody who tends to prefer nominative uses of language over > > > descriptive uses and needs an unambiguous shortname. > > > > > > On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 4:34 PM Gary Gregory > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Delegate from what to what? > > > > > > > > "member" is fine IMO. > > > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > On Sat, Mar 23, 2024, 4:14 PM Christopher wrote: > > > > > > > > > Delegate? > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 3:42 PM Gary Gregory > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't like "maintainer" here, a PMC member has a LOT more > > > > > > responsibility than the name implies IMO. > > > > > > > > > > > > "Maintainer" and "Contributor" feel almost interchangeable where a > > > > > > contributor might be a one-off and a maintainer more active. But > > > > > > we're > > > > > > splitting hair here IMO. > > > > > > > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 3:17 PM Craig Russell > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I totally get the problem. I think if we can find a suitable > > > > > > > title for > > > > > PMC Member we could socialize it in a few years. Should have done this > > > > > years ago. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But "Maintainer" does not do it for me. Keep looking... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Craig > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mar 23, 2024, at 01:47, tison wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Random thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You may find people not a native English speaker keep calling a > > > > > > > > PMC > > > > > Member > > > > > > > > of Apache Foo "Foo PMC". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We correct it so many times and spread the knowledge on list. > > > > > > > > But > > > > > the trend > > > > > > > > I observed doesn't change and IMO it's hopeless to change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since people tend to use a short ref and "committer" gives a > > > > > > > > one-word > > > > > > > > identifier first image, I'm trying to propose officially alias > > > > > > > > "PMC > > > > > Member" > > > > > > > > as "Maintainer" so that our wording is aligned. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What do you think? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > > > tison. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Craig L Russell > > > > > > > c
