RE: [DISCUSS] Crazy or good Idea?

[Christofer Dutz]

Hi All,

I think I commented in the document ... I think two numeric fields: How many 
hours per week to you work on open-source "paid" and "unpaid" would allow not 
only the type of evaluation regardings the gender distribution, but also would 
allow non-dei related analysis.

Chris

-Original Message-
From: Katia Rojas  
Sent: Dienstag, 26. April 2022 20:09
To: Jarek Potiuk 
Cc: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Crazy or good Idea?

Hello Jarek,

Those are very good questions.
Based on those questions we are assessing the following topics:

1.  Which percentage of the Paid/Unpaid belongs to each gender? It could be 
interesting and potentially actionable if we see a ratio mismatch between paid 
/ unpaid.

2. How would this information help with contributor experience improvement?

3. Could we summarise the questions in one or two questions, open or closed?

We are following up on those topics in the slack channel and the google docs as 
well.

Thanks,
Katia


On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 11:13 AM Jarek Potiuk  wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
> I think we have a great opportunity to get much more insight on what 
> is really needed here.
>
> Katia and the Diversity team are running the 2022 Survey about the 
> contributor's and there was already a question about whether people 
> are being paid/ not paid / mixed.
>
> I think - since this is an important topic - we should gather a bit 
> more stats on what the contributor source of paid work is and what are 
> the biggest obstacles they face in case they want to be paid. I have a 
> feeling that all of us are looking at that from their personal 
> experience and perspectives, but this might vary wildly and the survey 
> seems to be a perfect opportunity to find out more.
>
> The announcement is here and Katia asked for comments till 29th of 
> April - so we have still 3 days:
> https://lists.apache.org/thread/8r0gmw5f10r16drwc5wnyvgvppq3cbcw
>
> I already added a comment describing my ideas for the survey
> questions:
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s0TVBFf-KvOTl3IejI2FFOOTdkugZlX_pt
> nN6YWMFN0/edit?disco=YgvywxI
>
> But maybe others could contribute (and even review the survey in 
> general and make more comments) ?
>
> J.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 22, 2022 at 8:33 AM Christofer Dutz 
>  wrote:
> >
> > Yeah,
> >
> > That's exactly what I wanted to address. The bootstrapping: creating
> contacts for the different types of services (legal) , setup and run 
> the infrastructure to serve the offers I want to do and keep them 
> updated and patched (infrastructure), handling payments and chacing 
> after companies not willing to pay (finance), establish a place people 
> know to offer the services (marketing and pr) (this is probably the 
> thing requiring most
> work) and something to not appear to be a solo fighter, but be part of 
> something bigger.
> >
> > I for my part have invested a big part of my last years on all of this.
> In the end I failed mainly because my company is too small and can't 
> compete with the big closed-source names. Now I'm planning on ending 
> my business after 24 years, as I'm tired of fighting.
> >
> > But I would hate to see others in the same situation, so I would 
> > love to
> help others be successful. If what I learned the hard way helps, 
> that's the open-source idea on a next level. And I think something 
> like what I proposed would probably be the thing I personally would 
> have loved to have had and I probably would still be fully 
> self-employed, if such a thing existed.
> >
> > Thinking of my green energy supplier: when I saw the certificate of
> approval, that Greenpeace attests them serving truly green energy, 
> that convinced me to choose them. Perhaps some form of "Apache 
> approves the way this thing works"-certificate that needs to be 
> renewed (yearly), could be a form to do this without any problematic ties?
> >
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > Holen Sie sich Outlook für Android
> >
> > 
> > Von: Matt Sicker 
> > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 21. April 2022, 19:50
> > An: dev@community.apache.org 
> > Betreff: Re: [DISCUSS] Crazy or good Idea?
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 20, 2022 at 9:08 AM Jarek Potiuk  wrote:
> > > ... (snip)
> > > This is a model similar to many ASF projects commercial activities 
> > > - there are people, individuals with merit and experience in the 
> > > project and they decide to start or join a commercial company that 
> > > puts their stakes with the project. There are many stories like 
> > > that and even if some of the people are PMC members and committers that 
> > > might work.
> > > I see that it could work here as well. I think it is important to 
> > > see if there can be a real business model behind it. On top of 
> > > doing "good support" for the contributors, such a company would 
> > > have to simply have some business model and be a normal "business" I 
> > > think.
> >
> > I think I get your point here, though thi

RE: [DISCUSS] Crazy or good Idea?

[Christofer Dutz]

And I think when adding the two fields, we could eliminate question Q5 and Q6.

I saw you extended the table to the bottom to allow me so select something in 
both columns ;-) 

Chris

-Original Message-
From: Christofer Dutz  
Sent: Mittwoch, 27. April 2022 10:34
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSS] Crazy or good Idea?

Hi All,

I think I commented in the document ... I think two numeric fields: How many 
hours per week to you work on open-source "paid" and "unpaid" would allow not 
only the type of evaluation regardings the gender distribution, but also would 
allow non-dei related analysis.

Chris

-Original Message-
From: Katia Rojas 
Sent: Dienstag, 26. April 2022 20:09
To: Jarek Potiuk 
Cc: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Crazy or good Idea?

Hello Jarek,

Those are very good questions.
Based on those questions we are assessing the following topics:

1.  Which percentage of the Paid/Unpaid belongs to each gender? It could be 
interesting and potentially actionable if we see a ratio mismatch between paid 
/ unpaid.

2. How would this information help with contributor experience improvement?

3. Could we summarise the questions in one or two questions, open or closed?

We are following up on those topics in the slack channel and the google docs as 
well.

Thanks,
Katia


On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 11:13 AM Jarek Potiuk  wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
> I think we have a great opportunity to get much more insight on what 
> is really needed here.
>
> Katia and the Diversity team are running the 2022 Survey about the 
> contributor's and there was already a question about whether people 
> are being paid/ not paid / mixed.
>
> I think - since this is an important topic - we should gather a bit 
> more stats on what the contributor source of paid work is and what are 
> the biggest obstacles they face in case they want to be paid. I have a 
> feeling that all of us are looking at that from their personal 
> experience and perspectives, but this might vary wildly and the survey 
> seems to be a perfect opportunity to find out more.
>
> The announcement is here and Katia asked for comments till 29th of 
> April - so we have still 3 days:
> https://lists.apache.org/thread/8r0gmw5f10r16drwc5wnyvgvppq3cbcw
>
> I already added a comment describing my ideas for the survey
> questions:
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s0TVBFf-KvOTl3IejI2FFOOTdkugZlX_pt
> nN6YWMFN0/edit?disco=YgvywxI
>
> But maybe others could contribute (and even review the survey in 
> general and make more comments) ?
>
> J.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 22, 2022 at 8:33 AM Christofer Dutz 
>  wrote:
> >
> > Yeah,
> >
> > That's exactly what I wanted to address. The bootstrapping: creating
> contacts for the different types of services (legal) , setup and run 
> the infrastructure to serve the offers I want to do and keep them 
> updated and patched (infrastructure), handling payments and chacing 
> after companies not willing to pay (finance), establish a place people 
> know to offer the services (marketing and pr) (this is probably the 
> thing requiring most
> work) and something to not appear to be a solo fighter, but be part of 
> something bigger.
> >
> > I for my part have invested a big part of my last years on all of this.
> In the end I failed mainly because my company is too small and can't 
> compete with the big closed-source names. Now I'm planning on ending 
> my business after 24 years, as I'm tired of fighting.
> >
> > But I would hate to see others in the same situation, so I would 
> > love to
> help others be successful. If what I learned the hard way helps, 
> that's the open-source idea on a next level. And I think something 
> like what I proposed would probably be the thing I personally would 
> have loved to have had and I probably would still be fully 
> self-employed, if such a thing existed.
> >
> > Thinking of my green energy supplier: when I saw the certificate of
> approval, that Greenpeace attests them serving truly green energy, 
> that convinced me to choose them. Perhaps some form of "Apache 
> approves the way this thing works"-certificate that needs to be 
> renewed (yearly), could be a form to do this without any problematic ties?
> >
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > Holen Sie sich Outlook für Android
> >
> > 
> > Von: Matt Sicker 
> > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 21. April 2022, 19:50
> > An: dev@community.apache.org 
> > Betreff: Re: [DISCUSS] Crazy or good Idea?
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 20, 2022 at 9:08 AM Jarek Potiuk  wrote:
> > > ... (snip)
> > > This is a model similar to many ASF projects commercial activities
> > > - there are people, individuals with merit and experience in the 
> > > project and they decide to start or join a commercial company that 
> > > puts their stakes with the project. There are many stories like 
> > > that and even if some of the people are PMC members and committers that 
> > > might work.
> > > I 

It’s time to change the name

[Walter Cameron]

Hello all,

When the Apache Group named itself and its software Apache, they were
continuing a long-practiced North American settler tradition of
appropriating Native identity as a costume for their own causes. An
environment filled with propaganda including everything from Hollywood
media to music festivals and children’s summer camps enabled them to feel
entitled to play Indian.

The feather logo, meant to symbolize this community was clearly chosen for
its association with Native people and their cultures. In the US feathers
from many birds are highly regulated by the Feds, a lasting legacy of
attempts at suppressing Indigenous cultures. In the 1970’s the Washington
Redskins had a feather logo. After protests from Native people complaining
about the name and the indignity of a feather being used to represent
people, the team commissioned a Native artist to redraw one of their older
“Indian head” logos instead of doing the right thing and changing the name
and branding entirely.

There’s no respectful way to use other people, let alone survivors of
genocide, as a costume for your own causes. ASF’s mascotry has spawned its
own niche of digital redface in projects like Apache Geronimo and Apache
Arrow and no doubt inspired many others to use similar stereotyping. It’s
almost a cliché to say but imagine substituting a different group with
different stereotypes to use as branding.

As a developer I recognize that ASF is involved in some of the most
influential software out there. But as a Tlingit with the privilege of
living on Lingít Aaní I can’t discuss ASF or its projects without cringing.
By now there have been multiple peer-reviewed studies outlining the direct
and indirect harm that Native mascotry causes Native and non-Native people.
Schools, commercial products, and professional sports teams have changed
their names and rebranded. It’s long past time for ASF to do the same.

Gunalchéesh,
Walter Cameron

Re: It’s time to change the name

[Sam Ruby]

A name change would be a lot of work.

Put another way, the only way such a change will occur is if there are
volunteers willing to see it through.

Stating the problem with the hopes that somebody else solves it
generally doesn't produce a satisfactory outcome.

Walter: what are you personally willing to volunteer to do?  What is
your plan?  What resources do you need?

- Sam Ruby

On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 9:00 PM Walter Cameron
 wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> When the Apache Group named itself and its software Apache, they were
> continuing a long-practiced North American settler tradition of
> appropriating Native identity as a costume for their own causes. An
> environment filled with propaganda including everything from Hollywood
> media to music festivals and children’s summer camps enabled them to feel
> entitled to play Indian.
>
> The feather logo, meant to symbolize this community was clearly chosen for
> its association with Native people and their cultures. In the US feathers
> from many birds are highly regulated by the Feds, a lasting legacy of
> attempts at suppressing Indigenous cultures. In the 1970’s the Washington
> Redskins had a feather logo. After protests from Native people complaining
> about the name and the indignity of a feather being used to represent
> people, the team commissioned a Native artist to redraw one of their older
> “Indian head” logos instead of doing the right thing and changing the name
> and branding entirely.
>
> There’s no respectful way to use other people, let alone survivors of
> genocide, as a costume for your own causes. ASF’s mascotry has spawned its
> own niche of digital redface in projects like Apache Geronimo and Apache
> Arrow and no doubt inspired many others to use similar stereotyping. It’s
> almost a cliché to say but imagine substituting a different group with
> different stereotypes to use as branding.
>
> As a developer I recognize that ASF is involved in some of the most
> influential software out there. But as a Tlingit with the privilege of
> living on Lingít Aaní I can’t discuss ASF or its projects without cringing.
> By now there have been multiple peer-reviewed studies outlining the direct
> and indirect harm that Native mascotry causes Native and non-Native people.
> Schools, commercial products, and professional sports teams have changed
> their names and rebranded. It’s long past time for ASF to do the same.
>
> Gunalchéesh,
> Walter Cameron

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Re: It’s time to change the name

[Walter Cameron]

On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby  wrote:

> Walter: what are you personally willing to volunteer to do?  What is
> your plan?  What resources do you need?


Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to bring attention to this issue and
the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m kinda winging it but I appreciate
your eagerness and openness to change. I had hoped I’d speak up, people
would finally pull their heads out of the sand and work to undo the harm
they’ve caused.

ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would think that might spur effort
for change by those perpetuating the harm, but if you want me to do the
work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that familiar with the details of the
organization, surely not as familiar as one of its Directors, so in a lot
of ways I don’t fully understand the scope of what needs to be done, but
I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of my rudimentary technical and
design skills to run a “Find & Replace…” and put together a new logo or
whatever you think would be helpful in this effort. I haven’t designed a
logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing to give it a try.

I would have assumed that an organization with a paid staff and goals to
increase the diversity of its contributors and continue receiving corporate
donations would understand that the costs of inaction outweigh the costs of
action here.

Let me know what else I can do to help.

Walter