[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
I have been silently watching the debate/debacle, and I would like to suggest the name for Lucid Lynx be changed to Livid Lynx, because the vast majority of people are livid about it. ;) As a computer user for over 32 years, changing the button order and location for unspecified reasons is an unwise move in my opinion. Mark and Canonical are certainly entitled to do as they wish, but so am I. I will not use the gconf hack because I believe that while this may temporarily solve one issue; and it may indeed only contribute to the further breaking of the overal UI experience because of the burron order/position being implemented by those responsible for the changes of the UI. I'm already using a more popular operating system at work where I must constantly "band-aid" and "fix" shoddy programming. I won't do that at home or for my clients. If the order/position does not change back in Ubuntu before the final release, I will simply move on to straight Debian, leaving Ubuntu behind. I agree with the sentiments of those who have posted on the various message boards, blogs, emails, and in this very bug post here; on the negative things that this will cause for Ubuntu, Canonical and users. This will not make people who were loyal stay, and it certainly won't entice Windows users to switch. Most of the public is very, very, very non-technical. Lucid Lynx will soon become the same albatross to Canonical that Vista was to Microsoft. Clearly, there is a division and a schism that transcends far beyond merely button order/positions; and while such changes are major (though all too-often I've seen them called "trival", trust me, they are not...); what is even more major than this change is the fact that these changes were snuck in ala Microsoft-style right before the freeze. This tells me that people KNEW this would go over like a lead balloon. Ubuntu the OS is technically based on Debian. Ubuntu the community is based on the Ubuntu philosophy of "humanity to others". Making major changes, and especially sneaking them in, is counter-productive to all involved. It is also inhumane to do because of the imposed learning curve and the very real potential for breakage of related UI systems because of this fundamental change to the UI. Try changing "File Edit View" to "googlimaxmus Fredricktar and Jimjombjam". It's only a "trival" change. No one will get upset, and if they do, well, they are just being unreasonable. Right? -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Now the sheer irony... post #404 and talking about spy software not found in Ubuntu. 404indeed. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@Mark, I like the idea in post #414. You need real world data, not just from us geeks, but Joe Sixpack End-User. That being said " - where does the average mouse rest?" Upper-righthand corner "i.e., when it's not being used, where is the mouse, usually?" Same place as above...in the upper right-hand corner. "are there accidental clicks on the close button in the new location?" Yes. A little story that applies here... Back when I worked as a Guitar Tech, my motto was "Never let the musician think" because if they have to think, they can't play. They lose their flow. Crazy as it sounds, but if that effects pedal is not in the exact same place on that stage every night, it WILL throw them off. I guarantee it. It becomes habit to "feel" and "know" where "X" (whatever X is" be it an X button or an X pedal on a stage. EVERYONE is a creature of habit, and while we can adapt, some things are better left *as is* unless there is a VERY good reason otherwise. I have not seen any concrete reasoning other than some vague references to possibilities in 10.10; and as someone else said here awhile agowhy not have those unnamed/unverified features a spot on the left vs the right side? As for those features, I think people would at least like a rough idea of your concepts for that spot. To quote use a famous movie quote..."throw me a bone here, people." "We know that the new location has lots going on around it." Yes. Too much in fact. "Are people accidentally clicking the wrong thing?" I'm not...because I refuse to use it that way. I tried liver once too and know I don't like it, so why eat it? Ya know? "does it take longer to click it in the new location, once one is moving with intent in the right direction?" Yes. See my comments on moving and thinking, crteatures of habit, etc. "We know that the fact that there's a lot around the target means finer motor control is required, and we know that generally means slower, more careful, more irritating movements." In where many older people are using Ubuntu and America's boomers are getting older, this is not such a good idea. "But is that actually measurably observed?" Tangibly? No, not in hard data format, but only tangible in the sense that it affects those who attempt to use it that way. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@pako #438 So then run Enlightenment or XFCE. Ideally, everything (*nix, Gnome, KDE, XFCE, Konversation, etc) should have a developmental branch and a production branch; with nothing in the Dev version being put into the Prod version until fully tested. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Yeah, Gnome uses a lot less than KDE, but XFCE uses even less than GNome, but of course true geeks ask "GUI? What's that? We're in CLUI since the 70's man. No mouse needed. What's the fuss?" -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@Jefspa Leta: AMEN!!! Not defining what you want will not get you what you want; and that is what Mar kis doing. It's like going to a party and asking people "Hey... you remember that one time that one guy did that one thing you know where with you know who?" u yeah..suuure. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@Everyone. April 29th, the release date is the scheduled release date of the 3rd LTS release...at this point, rather than copy Microsoft and release Canonical's version of Vista because of this "Button-Gate"; maybe it's also time to: 1) Resolve it the way the majority of people want it or... 2) Provide real-world data and reasoning for the button order and position change to the left or. 3) If 1 or 2 cannot be done (or done in time...) then to postpone the final release. A missed LTS release date is better than a messed up released LTS. Let MS release the MEs and Vistas to the world, NOT Canonical. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@scholli "What a nonsense" Such is your opinion. I have stated mine and you disagree. cool. So be it. "In what relations you can put together the Vista-fail with the buttons?" Vista was going to be this be-all-end-all-wonderful thing with the GREAT idea of the UAC.. just like how there is a GREAT idea of this button order/move as well as all of this new features in 10.04LTS as well. Beware all. beware. 1". you are sure the majority want it?" Judging from here at 450+ posts, judging from the Planet Ubuntu blogs, other websites/blogs, I would venture to say "YES", the majority DO want it to stay the way it is now in 9.x and earlier, the way it is in Windows. "You want it" Glad you got that. "Peoples who didn't tried it for a long period will say firstly "no". But this statement is generally not fair." People are creatures of habits and resist change without VERY good reason, which as you agreed to in my #2, has yet to be disclosed by Mark or anyone else responsible. I, we are waiting Mark. "2. this is a fair point." Indeed. See the above. 3. :O Joke? "Why you did this provocations?" I stated my opinion, which unlike this button order/move, has not prompted "Buttongate" and thousands of posts on websites, blogs, emails, etc. IF there is ANY controversy, it is not because of my opinion, but rather because of the move and order of the buttons propgated by the powers-that-be. THEY provoked. I, WE, responded. "Why did you say this rubbish?" Please refrain from stating your opinion as fact. This is not church. "For throw nonsense-wood in the fire?" See the above. Now moving on if we can... "You think this will resolve your wish and the fear about that nonsense you said will put the buttons to the right place immediately?" No. I will wait and see and if it is not to my liking, which I know about the gconf hack, but I know that doing that will break the UI on the DE and applications, I will simply move to Debian. Problem solved for me. I DO prefer to stick with Ubuntu, but so far that loyalty has been pretty one-sided. "Be fair and mature, please." I TOTALLY agree. Mark? Are you listening? How about that explanation about the reasons for the button order change, button location move, and exactly what things are planned for the space on the right which in no way could possibly go on the left hand side instead? I, we are waiting. Yes, please. DO be fair. DO be mature. Mark, the cat is clawing the bag. Let it out already. "The statement form Mark S. was clearly. He is looking for value data." Define "data". Too vague. Too ambiguous. This one time this one guy did this one thing -- you know. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Sprang, I agree. Every year there is a list that comes out of the most popular distros, and for quite a few, Ubuntu held that, but I really do believe that if this move goes through, Ubuntu will become as current and relevant in today's world as NeXtstep, BeOS, Amiga and OS/2 are. It's bad enough that we IT geeks have to do major workarounds to keep windows going for people, but now Ubuntu too? Is Canonical trying to compete with Microsoft for the most PITA OS to use? Maybe windowing shouldn't be square.. How about we make all windowing shapes circles instead? No one will care. Right? Let's go for the ugliest and most difficult OS to use... then we will be great, like Microsoft. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Thank you Jeff. You've said a lot of what is on my mind, as well as the mind of others, and you also included the issues that IT/Support people are going to face with this button order/move issue. I think at this point, I could list many things, but so many people have listed them so many times, in so many different ways, we are just going round and round... so let's move on from the b*tchfest and go with the next action step. Mark, UI Team, What's next? Where are we at now? Where are we going next? How will we get there? -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 938756] Re: Gedit opens a useless blank file, when opening another file with gksudo
*** This bug is a duplicate of bug 796076 *** https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/796076 Same here but under KDE 4.9.00 on Kubuntu 12.04LTS 64-bit OS. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to gedit in Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/938756 Title: Gedit opens a useless blank file, when opening another file with gksudo To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/gedit/+bug/938756/+subscriptions -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@Bob, fyi, and not to derail this bug, but you'll find that Fedora is a lot more bleeding edge than say Ubuntu or one of its' derivatives (like Linux Mint) are. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
I just downloaded and tried the latest Lucid: 1) I don't like the menu button order. Too confusing. 2) I don't like the button location on the left. Too confusing. In both cases, my mouse hangs to the right by default. 3) I like how clear the default theme is, but the purple background, button order and moves make it look way too much like a Mac. If I wanted a Mac, I'd buy one. If I wanted to run Mac OS X, I'd run it. Same goes for Windows. I actually LIKE the Human theme from Ubuntu 8.04LTS. 4) Why can't I add my own custom GDM login screens anymore? Why have this and other GDM theme/features also disappeared? I'll hang on to 8.04 LTS as long as I can, then move over to Debian if things don't change. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@scholli Sorry. I must not be a "key person" aka Developer God, so my opinion doesn't count I guess. I tried Lucid at an early stage, waited, then downloaded the latest one like I said. I only use Linux every day, install it on people's machines for my friends and business customers, support and promote it (by the way, I said "Linux".. not JUST "Ubuntu".) @jefspa "Have you been running Karmic?" No. Karmic was bad for me. I had 9.04 on my laptop, upgraded, and then neither video or compiz would work, so I reformatted it, installed 9.10 without upgrading it, and whle that fixed the video, compiz still didn't work. I reformatted once again, put 9.04 back on it and everything works great. I left my desktop alone because I will only use LTS+1 on that, so it won't be upgraded until 10.04.1LTS or if things don't change, I'll just go straight Debian. "My understanding that the GDM customization issue you refer to was introduced when moving to GDM 2.26 from 2.20 because of the refactoring of upstream GDM the original gdmconfig no longer works. Ubuntu skipped several upstream releases of GDM to avoid regressions due to the refactoring...but you can't wait forever and GDM was finally updated again in the run up to Karmic's released introducing the configuration regression." So how then does one use GDM themes / login screens in 10.x? -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Secret Future Ubuntu User Interface Plans Revealed! http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/44121 -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Mark, clearly there MUST be enough data here by now, on the Internet in general, etc, to make a sound decision and back it up with clear and concise data. Right now this is taking a play right out of ex-president Bush's playbook... "Stay the course". If we see a "Mission Accomplished" sigh unveiled before the release, we know the boat is sunk. I won't request to get any data from you or the UI team as to what changes (exactly or conceptually) are in mind for the right-hand space, I've given up on that. I'm trying really hard to not give up on Ubuntu as I've been a loyal user for years. I'll stick around until the release and see what transpires; but I'm not going to hack gconf and other things to try and counter what is done by default for such a major thing such as the button order and location. I spent way too many years fighting Microsoft and Windows, I'm just too tired of it all. I've been working with computers since age 11 in 1978 - (32 years and counting now at age 43), and I'm perhaps a bit on the lazy and jaded side. I'm too used to things the way they are to switch. I'm pretty open to change, but some things that are and have been the core foundation of many OSes and GUIs, yeah... I'm not going to change that in myself. I'm too used to it the way it is and I LIKE it there anyway. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@scholli Perhaps you have hit on it right there. Make every theme work either with the wacked out max,min,close now on the left OR the proper min,max,close on the right like 95% of the World's computer users are used to. I know about the "Dust" theme, but I don't care fo it and I don't want to be locked into one theme or a limited number of it. That being said, how would something like this affect applications? Would changing the theme also change button order/location for each application on the PC as well? IF so, then that would be wonderful because then no hacks would be needed and it could be theme-driven and the user could choose. For those of us who use Ubuntu @ home as our only OS, but must work on Windows @ work, we could have it as max,min,close now on the right. For those who use Macs and Ubuntu, they can have it the other way on the left. Now like I said, if it's a global-theme-based change that affects all applications etc, that'd be cool, and in that way, I CAN support such a change. I believe that the current way of gconf editing may break things, or at least cause wacked out drop shadow effects, etc. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Addendum: By default, everything should be on the right and in the normal order. As for the ambiguous never-clarified-changes Mark has mentioned for 10.010, those should move with the theme selected as well. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
What do you think would happen if Microsoft said "We're doing away with the Start Menu and Taskbar we've had since 1995. we're going to implement the Ribbon interface instead." I can guarantee that the corporate users would not deal with that change at all. Companies would balk about the learning curve, how it breaks this or that, etc. Home users would complain to the ends of the Earth, switch to Mac, refuse to upgrade (like the last hardcore hold-outs for XP are doing now), etc. Livid Lynx...sorry... Lucid Lynx is fast becoming the "Vista with the Ribbon UI" in the minds of many I believe. Mar. Canonical. LEARN from Microsoft's mistakes. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@scholli "Wrong Pyramid. Microsoft will include a new feature, because it's really better and if they are unsure the will insert a option for redo this change to old habits." We shall see if Office 2010 has the ribbon UI, the old UI, or the ribbon U with an option to revert, which Office 2007 does not have. MS Implemented the ribbon UI without the option to revert and withouth forethought on how it would affect the end-user...so it is the case with 10.04 and these stupid button's order/placement. "The same happens here. We have a change, but you are always free to redo it if you wish it.' If I wanted to constantly have to tweak and "fix" my OS, I'd use Windows, not Linux. "The mistakes of Microsoft are that they made very complex changes ... this isn't the case here." I have a feeling that it will be very complex for the average user to switch over easily from right to left, with the new order of the buttons. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@piko No mistreatment meant. Demands? No. Not at all. You are free to code as you wish, but any company or entity that ignores the majority of it's customer base, is doomed to fail. I think the majority of users (based on my own data gathering from view blog posts, websites, etc) is in favor of the way things currently are. Proceed at your own peril, that's all. Code as you will. Yes, there is a "patch", but again, this does not change any button effects such as drop shadow. Also, what will this do to applications and themes? Break them or work flawlessly? I know about Kubuntu. No, I don't want to use Windows. No, I don't want to emulate Windows (nor do I wish to emulate Mac). I want the placements to remain "as is" unless there is good cause and reason to change it around otherwise. (Also, KDE uses more overhead than Gnome does.) -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@Jefspa Is anyone a "customer" in the literal sense of money exchanging hands? No, not to my knowledge. I guess I could have said "user", "customer" "end-user", or "if A creates B and C uses it" ..it's all really the same thing in the end. Rather than argue semantics, let's focus on the points I made. Yes, that would be actually ironic "if later it becomes known that these design changes were in fact prompted in part by paying customers such as OEM partners over the concerns of non-paying customers." This is diverting off-topic, but you bring up a point, so I'll respond to it Microsoft and Yahoo partnered up with each other to form bing; and now Canonical us changing the default search engine to Yahoo! because of financial reasons. I get it. They need to make money to provide Ubuntu for free. I have ZERO problem with them doing that because you can easily change your default homepage, search engine, etc; but now if it goes deeper than that, such as changes to the kernel, UI, we start seeing ads popping up, I think that is a different animal. There isn't a black and white absolute on what is acceptable and what is not, except as each person decides for themselves what that is for them. Again, off-topic, I apologize. I don't want to derail this, but you DO and DID bring up a valid, possible point. There are most certainly things going on behind the scenes of which we are not fully aware. Perhaps this is why the uber-secret mystical "features" of 10.10 have not (or cannot legally be) stated publicly.. or maybe it's just some twist on E.E.E. or F.U.D. I don't know. @scholli Yes, we disagree. and that's ok. I welcome insights from all, even if I don't agree with them. I do think the idea of making the buttons in the current order on the right-hand side like they currently are; and then have everything theme-driven with the option to change to left (with the new button order) or to leave it "as is" in the current order and location on the right; is really the best way to do things. gconf, etc are just hacks that will break the UI. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Pako Yes, I will hack my work PC that I don't own and I'm sure that won't break corporate policy. Riiight. No. The reason I don't want the menu button order and location changed is because for the past 32 years (longer than many on here have been alive I'm sure), I've used it the current way. As noted above by another user, Gurkan said "Even I as an experienced computer user was annoyed." You want them on the left? go left. I, and most people, want them on the right. Again, refer back to my idea of theme-driven. Pako, you fail to realize that I am in the majority and you are treating me with contempt and going on the offensive like I am doing something so horribly wrong by wanting the same thing as the majority of users do. It is the attitude like that, even more so than the button move, that will drive users AWAY from Ubuntu. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
"And here you breaking the policy of Ubuntu" Pot - kettle - black. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Debian here I come. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@scholli, since you're a gambling person, I need to open a casino. Odds are 100% in the house's favor (me) on not going back to Ubuntu. You've never seen an rm -rf /* done so fast in your life. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@scholli YEAH!! YOU WIN!!! *** YOU *** get a cookie...and tons of people leaving. I've said my opinion. Others have said theirs, now time will indeed tell. What will you say when the mass exodus AWAY from Ubuntu happens? Ohh yes, you and Piko will say how wrong everyone else is.. and you'll wonder why people left. I'll give you a clue, while the buttons may be the final straw that broke the camel's back, the elitist attitudes of Ubuntu developers is the real cause. You have fun with that now. ya hear ;) -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
http://havethebuttonsmovedbackyet.com/ -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@running... Stop with the F.U.D. "trade secrets" in Open Source? If that's the case, boy does Debian have a bone to pick. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Taken from another website, this post below illustrates many of things I've said; so while the words below are not mine, their sentiment most certainly is...along with many, many, many other people's sentiment as well. http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/04/ubuntu-windo... http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/23899/ http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1422422 http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1430585 http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1439536 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light... http://havethebuttonsmovedbackyet.com/ http://betterubuntu.org/ http://blog.daviey.com/blogroll/anything-but-th... http://humphreybc.wordpress.com/2010/03/11/its-... http://www.kilobitspersecond.com/2010/03/03/the... http://moonlitrants.wordpress.com/2010/03/11/he... http://kyleabaker.com/2010/03/09/ubuntu-10-04s-... http://piestar.net/2010/03/04/ubuntu-rebrand/ http://lifehacker.com/5500577/move-ubuntus-wind... You're right, I'm the only one that disagrees with it. All sarcasm aside, lets talk about community. You say the "vast majority" has not voiced their opinion. So this is the only way things get decided upon? We're waiting for this vast majority from the unknown to vote in some unknown manner for it to be taken seriously? I guess the community from the official ubuntu forums, brainstorm and launchpad don't actually count then. Someone should have told us before we voiced our opinion that our voice does not matter before asking us to voice our opinion (which Mark did in the bug). You say Canonical's target audience is the novice user who is new to computers. Is this the vast majority you speak of? People who downloaded and installed ubuntu on their computer but do not take part in the forums or launchpad or brainstorm to voice their opinion? So the rest of us are just free marketing and bug fixing but have no say in how the OS develops? I think something is missing here because it really doesn't make sense to me. A company focus's on the user who takes no part in the community while ignoring the active community. moving on... It's a bad decision because: #1 Nobody but mac users are used to it. 90% of the rest of the world are used to it being on the right. #2 There has been ZERO explanations as to why this needs to be done. There is no benefit. There is no advantage. There is only upset and agnostic users. The only excuse has been "we might put something on the right". PUT IT ON THE LEFT! #3 LTS. We are stuck with this half-design for the next 3 years. #4 Zero community input taken into consideration. I'll say zero, because if I mention Mark asked for input from the community and the majority (see above) yelled loud and clear that they were against it and the decision was still made in favor, then that makes the decision look much worse. #5 major UI change 2 weeks after a UI freeze... in an LTS I'm done with this issue. I'm really tired of trying to explain this on deaf ears. The powers that be just don't understand what pissing off your core users really means. Yes, WE are your core users. We are the ones spending our time, money and energy using, advocating, fixing and improving your OS just because we like it and the community. This "vast majority" of users you speak of who do not participate who give nothing back but arbitrary numbers should not take precedence over the satisfaction of your core users. This all said, I am a power user and will continue to configure the OS I spend so much time, money and energy on improving upon to fit my needs. I will continue more testing of my family and customers to see if I will need to do further customizing for them as well. If it weren't for this community I would jump ship. There is no other place like it. Maybe Canonical should stop taking this for granted. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@Michael... #609 That illustrates my point clearly on why this whole left-right thing should be theme-driven. Thanks :D -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@bernhard, not as a primary OS. I run it on a test box. My main OS is still 8.04.4LTS and my laptop runs 9.04. (I still think 8.04 is really the best one to date. It all went downhill from there.) If it has been implemented, then why post #609? If this is possible, then both he and I (and many others) MUST be missing it. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Thank you. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@Jeff Burns, I'm in the same boat as you and second everything you said so far. Well said, and I totally agree 1%. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Pako, because creating a Linux distro doesn't make me money; but supporting Linux does. Were you just bored that you decided to try and stir up some sh*t or what? -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@Pako, Transference won't work. I'm not angry at all. Frustrated over the stupid moves made by the UI team/Mark/Canonical, yes... but angry? no. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Post #647 validates a point I made long ago...that we are going to have to hack workarounds. First, gconf, now this to make sure that you don''t close out of the window instead of hitting the File menu. (Maybe Canonical should move that to the right side and really confuse people ;) /snark) "Gnome global menu applet ( http://code.google.com/p/gnome2-globalmenu/ ) is a very good way of avoiding the problem of clicking Close when intending to open the File menu." Post #648 brings up another point I (and others) have about this whole change breaking the UI. Of course Canonical with it's hubris will expect Metacity, Gnome, all GTK applications, programmers and end-users to change for them. Sounds a LOT like Microsoft or Apple's way of thinking. I still have Ubuntu 8.04.4LTS on one machine, while it will stay that way until it can't work anymore. The other now runs Debian. Hopefully the madness decisions of Livid Lynx 10.04LTS will be reversed. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Pako, People are not precise. They are however, creatures of habit. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
"there are few users including me that already found advantages in left side buttons." Key word here is "few". There are FEW Mac users compared to Windows users. There are FEW Linux users compared to Windows users. there are FEW people willing to adapt to such a change as the button order and location. Once again.People are not precise. They are however, creatures of habit. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
For anyone that hasn't left already (such as myself); if Ubuntu turns into spware-adware-twitter-ware central in order to support it; that will truly p*ss people off and make them leave Ubuntu. At least with Windows there isn't some ad popping up in every titlebar window. No, it's not yet there in Ubuntu either... but "yet" is the key word here. "It could be something so bad that people* will complain about it by itself, let alone the title bar scramble, so Mark is attempting to separate the criticisms, reordering the title bar now so that the future complains would be limited to the new gimmick alone" This is/would be a totally political move, and a good way to do it to minimize the perceived impact on people. This may also be why Mark and company haven't even given the slighted indication of what the invisible titlebar voodoo may be. (in case anyone asks: Why am I still posting here if I've moved to Debian? Well, I'm in the lifeboat just watching the Titanic sink is all.) -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@scholli "It's rising ... after publishing Lucid, it still will growing. No Titanic here! Why? Because Ubuntu is cleaning up the ***old*** dust and is the only one with a shiny, modern look. This is what peoples are ***looking for**' Yes,iPad sales were up initially too. All this demonstrates if that just like Apple users, Ubuntu users are becoming sheeple too because they get distracted by "neat, shiny things that look cool" versus actually being usable and assist in productivity. @Bob - I hear you. I'm on your side man. MANY here, including Mark, don't get it - or care to even try to. @running_rabbt07 "How many people were really using desktop computers in the 70s?" I have been since I started in 1978 at age 11. "If you guys are really this stubborn how did you manage to actually leave Windows?" I started out on UNIX, CLUI-based, migrated to Mac for about 10 years (Mac had the min,max,close on the right back then), then went to Windows (min,max,close), and then to various distros of Linux, which until Ubuntu Livid Lynx 10.04, were the same way. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Yet another voice against this move http://www.zdnet.com.au/new-ubuntu-look-too-destructive-339302224.htm -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@jon..Mint may not be bad, but it's still part of the Ubuntu-strain. better off going with the original Ubuntu steals all of it's code fromDebian. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
>From Planet Ubuntu in a blog post about Canonical reversing it's decision to have Yahoo! as the default search vs. Google...which now Google will once again be the standard in 10.04LTS.. "No, unfortunately, not that (link gone, but pointed to this bug report) decision. The decision to use Yahoo has the default search engine in Mozilla Firefox in Ubuntu 10.04 has been changed back to Google. Granted, I could care less what default search engine is used in Firefox. It’s a setting that can be changed in a very easy and user friendly manner. I’ve also stopped using MemoryLeakFox in favor of a slightly less memory hog, Google Chrome. What gets me is the comment made by Rick Spencer in regard to the decision: In this case, choosing Google will be familiar to everybody upgrading from 9.10 to 10.04 Last I checked, familiarity was not a valid or adequate reason for basing decisions on. If familiarity has now become a good enough reason, then I know some other bugs that could use another once-over." Now my comments So Mark, Canonical, you WILL reverse decisions ok. cool. So now I must ask, then if with all of this input from people in blogs, with websites even being created AGAINST your boneheaded move, WHY will you NOT reverse this decision that is about as popular as a 3rd presidential term from Resident Bush aka "W") -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@Bob Pendleton - I've been at this since 1978, so I can relate with everything you've said, as I've had similar experiences. I think Mark and company have enough data on what most users would like, for it to be min,max,close on the right-hand side, and clearly this is the majority of end-users. (End-users aren't on here. We're programmers, developers, IT geeks, etc) I'm not going to get into a debate, as I think everyone (including Mark) already knows my stance on this as well as my previous points made. I won't repeat them again here and now. All that being said, I've done my own research and people agree with me for the most part. Some don't care either way, some like it on the left of the window, same goes for not only the button positions, but the order of them as well. It's all over the spectrum, but the vast majority of people I've shown Lucid to vs older versions of Ubuntu, liked it as min, max, close on the right-hand side. Be all of that as it may.. I think the solution is to make it so people can use any theme (so that probably means making 2 different versions of the same theme, one for left-side buttons in close,min,max and one for right-hand side with min,max,close) so that people may easily choose which they would like. This change of the button order and position is not something within the Metacity window manager or within Gnome, but rather within Ubuntu itself. Perhaps these 2 different GTK themes will give other people who use Debian and other distros the option as well, which may be a bonus of this now-only-Ubuntu-specific deal. I think this is where the focus needs to be at right now. As for whatever unverified features that will be in Ubuntu 10.10, that too will need to be movable. So to reiterate, I think the keep here is flexibility. This should fit right in-line with the core modular basis of Linux as a whole anyway. Aside from all of the technical aspects of this, it is certainly a social experiment gone wild. Interesting, to say the least. PS: To anyone who has gone 'round and 'round with me in the past on thus bug, please... just don't. Save it. Save everyone the hassle. This post isn't about any of that. It's about contributing positive data. Nothing else. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
"Interesting, how often UI changes although already frozen..." - Martin Wildham Interesting indeed. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
If the pilot ejects themselves, that's not a bug,it's a feature. There is unused space next to the switch for which you will be informed sometime in the future of a maybe-feature that might happen. Nevermind planes are crashing everywhere and we had to rebuild it on the day of releasetrivial things such as bug fixes...err more features, do not matter. We need more data. ok..end snarkiness. I downloaded Ubuntu 10.04LTS final and due to (what I consider) some major issues, I won't install it, but did run the live cd. Parts of it are good, nice, etc, but other parts, (Me Menu, button order/position UI-breaking of themes/applkications/muscle memory/etc), not going to install it on a machine until 10.04.2LTS at least. Right now my main box runs Debian. Hopefully some of the insanity in this LTS will be undone. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Yes.. you CAN gconftool-2 --set /apps/metacity/general/button_layout --type string "menu:minimize,maximize,close" to fix the issue, however, what about all of the themes (not the native ones in Ubuntu 10.04LTS) and various 3rd party applications? Is Mark/Canonical sure that the current button organization, orde, position, does not break UI on any themes and applications not included in 10.04LTS? -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
