Debian presence on newer platforms
Hi,
a lot of communication in Debian happens over IRC. However IRC is not
as nice to use as newer alternatives, creating a barrier for newer
contributors.
Do you think Debian should be more active to establish (official)
presence on newer platforms?
A disadvantage is splitting the community, but I'm not sure keeping IRC
forever as the world moves on is a good option either...
In particular I also wonder if Debian should look at Matrix[1]: it is a
free and decentralized platform, and the UI (of Riot[2]) seems more
friendly than IRC clients.
(I haven't used Matrix much myself yet... Just played a bit as ${work}
might use it and they have set up a test installation.)
Similar things also apply to mailing lists; there are solutions that
might be more accessible to some users (e.g. mailman3's web interface
which for example Fedora uses). Though I can't say much about those as
I haven't used them so far.
Ansgar
[1] https://matrix.org
[2] https://riot.im
Re: Debian presence on newer platforms
> "Ansgar" == Ansgar writes: Ansgar> Hi, a lot of communication in Debian happens over IRC. Ansgar> However IRC is not as nice to use as newer alternatives, Ansgar> creating a barrier for newer contributors. Ansgar> Do you think Debian should be more active to establish Ansgar> (official) presence on newer platforms? I've been looking at Matrix too and it seems kind of nice. There already seem to be a number of channels related to Debian (or gatewayed from oftc) on Matrix. I think that we're still in the initial explorations stage of this work. Interested people should explore technologies and put together something concrete. This isn't something I would drive as DPL myself, but it's something where I'd be happy to work with someone who did want to drive it. Is this something interesting enough to you that you'd like to drive or be involved in such an effort?
Re: Debian presence on newer platforms
Hi Ansgar
On 2019/03/25 18:54, Ansgar wrote:
> a lot of communication in Debian happens over IRC. However IRC is not
> as nice to use as newer alternatives, creating a barrier for newer
> contributors.
>
> Do you think Debian should be more active to establish (official)
> presence on newer platforms?
>
> A disadvantage is splitting the community, but I'm not sure keeping IRC
> forever as the world moves on is a good option either...
>
> In particular I also wonder if Debian should look at Matrix[1]: it is a
> free and decentralized platform, and the UI (of Riot[2]) seems more
> friendly than IRC clients.
>
> (I haven't used Matrix much myself yet... Just played a bit as ${work}
> might use it and they have set up a test installation.)
As it happens, I've put a lot of thought in to this and considered
including it in my platform too, but my platform was already a bit
loaded (both in how long it is and the scope of the role I was laying
out), so I decided to cut it for a second term if that would ever work out.
Yeah yeah, long post coming...
(https://www.enricozini.org/blog/2019/debian/debian-vote-statistics/)
There's a massive amount of interesting things happening in the space.
Matrix is good, but Mattermost is certainly worth looking at as well.
https://mattermost.com/
It's a free software alternative to Slack, but it's not a mere copy,
Mattermost is a superset of Slack in terms of features. Mattermost
integrates with many different existing services. In particular, it also
integrates really well with GitLab, to the point where GitLab ships a
configuration of GitLab that contains an entire Mattermost installation.
You can also enable commands for channels and users that let them
contron GitLab right out of chat (or even add completely new commands
that control stuff pretty much anywhere):
https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/user/project/integrations/mattermost_slash_commands.html
I'm not sure how popular the idea will be to replace IRC with mattermost
completely, I consider it firmly in the needs-more-discussion category,
but I do think it's worth while considering for a lot of reasons, but
basically:
1. Spam. IRC networks aren't that great with dealing with large spam
attacks, Mattermost makes this easier to deal with.
2. IRC Gateway. You don't have to throw away your perfectly good IRC
client like irssi or weechat, they can connect to mattermost via its IRC
gateway.
3. Control. At the beginning of events like DebConf, we always have a
day or two where oftc kicks people off because too many people connect
from the same IP, for this and other reasons Mattermost might be better.
4. New users. I really want to get many new contributors in to debian,
and the average person finds Mattermost (and all its alternatives) *so*
much less intimidating than an IRC client. On top of that, Mattermost
have great phone apps so it's easier for the average person to stay
connected to chats when mobile.
But there's more, there's a lot of exciting things happening in the free
software communications world. There's the whole concept of the
fediverse that I think we should embrace within Debian. In a nutshell,
it allows you to connect different free social network services together
so that you can interact with other networks from yours, even if they're
different software.
Here are some of them many of you may already be familiar with.
1. Mastodon
Mastodon is a twitter-like platform with a tweetdeck-like interface.
More on Mastodon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastodon_(software)
Follow me on Mastodon! :) https://mastodon.xyz/@highvoltage
2. Pixelfed
Pixelfed is a project to recreate Instagram as a free software platform.
Pixelfed website: https://pixelfed.org/
Follow me on Pixelfed! :) https://pixelfed.social/highvoltage
Rhonda has performed a test installation of Pixelfed on Debian, it seems
that it needs minimal changes to run properly on Debian (maybe she can
elaborate if she's reading).
3. Peertube
Peertube is great, it's a decentralised video hosting service.
Website: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PeerTube
Peertube is a game changer. YouTube basically currently has a monopoly
on video hosting on the Internet due to all the eyeballs it's
attracting, but Peertube may be the answer to that, since it allows
users to self-host, but users can discover videos across instances.
I've been looking into various video hosting solutions for the DebConf
video team, because we want to offer users something nicer than just an
html listing of files, and out of the bunch of solutions I've looked at,
Peertube by far makes the most sense.
Not part of my DPL campaign at all, but if we get a Peertube instance
for Debian, I want to encourage our users to make videos about Debian
and share it there, similar to videos that I made for Debian Package of
the Day etc.
I would really love for Debian to have a Peertube instance to host all
the DebConf videos and a whole array of user contributed videos too,
ranging on how th
Re: Debian presence on newer platforms
Quoting "Sam Hartman", who wrote on 2019-03-25 at 13:09 Uhr -0400: I've been looking at Matrix too and it seems kind of nice. There already seem to be a number of channels related to Debian (or gatewayed from oftc) on Matrix. One benefit of Matrix is that there are a lot of bridges, and the IRC bridge is very stable. In fact, any OFTC room is already available on Matrix through implicit bridging. All you have to do is join the room #_oftc_#channel:matrix.org and you'll be joined bidirectionally to the corresponding IRC channel. Also works for other networks. Freenode is the one exception in that it doesn't have a leading _. See https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/wiki/End-user-FAQ for more info, including how to register and take control over the nickname used. I've been wanting to suggest Matrix for Debian since DC15, but I haven't because of the above, which already allows everyone to use Matrix who wants to, while avoiding the debate that will otherwise occupy us for years. But yeah, Matrix is the future of chat/rich-media exchange. KDE has recently migrated entirely. I don't expect that Debian ever will, which is why the bridging concept is just beautiful. -- .''`. martin f. krafft @martinkrafft : :' : proud Debian developer `. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduck `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems "a cigarette is the perfect type of pleasure. it is exquisite, and it leaves one unsatisfied." -- oscar wilde digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital GPG signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/sig-policy/999bbcc4/current)
Re: Debian presence on newer platforms
Quoting "Jonathan Carter", who wrote on 2019-03-25 at 20:42 Uhr +0200: It's a free software alternative to Slack, but it's not a mere copy, Mattermost is a superset of Slack in terms of features. Mattermost integrates with many different existing services. In particular, it also integrates really well with GitLab, […] Matrix bots also provide integration with GitHub and GitLab in similar ways. Matrix also has bridging to Mattermost. And while surely not representative: 11 out of 12 teams I personally know who looked at Matrix and Mattermost a couple of years back and went with Mattermost then are now migrating to Matrix, which has the following benefits: - federation - multi-device end-to-end encryption (though obviously not in bridged rooms) - real-time voice/video conferencing - widgets Yes, I am a huge Matrix evangelist. And why wouldn't I? -- .''`. martin f. krafft @martinkrafft : :' : proud Debian developer `. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduck `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems "it is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -- aristoteles digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital GPG signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/sig-policy/999bbcc4/current)
Re: Debian presence on newer platforms
On 3/25/19 8:16 PM, martin f krafft wrote: > Yes, I am a huge Matrix evangelist. And why wouldn't I? Does Matrix allow a client to be idling on some server to act as a bouncer? I usually run Weechat on a server and never log off. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913
Re: Debian presence on newer platforms
martin f krafft writes:
> Quoting "Sam Hartman", who wrote on 2019-03-25 at 13:09 Uhr -0400:
>> I've been looking at Matrix too and it seems kind of nice. There
>> already seem to be a number of channels related to Debian (or
>> gatewayed from oftc) on Matrix.
>
> One benefit of Matrix is that there are a lot of bridges, and the IRC
> bridge is very stable. In fact, any OFTC room is already available on
> Matrix through implicit bridging. All you have to do is join the room
> #_oftc_#channel:matrix.org and you'll be joined bidirectionally to the
> corresponding IRC channel. Also works for other networks. Freenode is
> the one exception in that it doesn't have a leading _.
As a simple test I tried to join #debian over the bridge. It doesn't
work out of the box as #debian need registered nicks.
Figuring out how to register a nickname on OFTC over the Matrix bridge
and having to do that before joining a channel is a pretty high barrier.
> I've been wanting to suggest Matrix for Debian since DC15, but I
> haven't because of the above, which already allows everyone to use
> Matrix who wants to, while avoiding the debate that will otherwise
> occupy us for years.
>
> But yeah, Matrix is the future of chat/rich-media exchange. KDE has
> recently migrated entirely. I don't expect that Debian ever will,
> which is why the bridging concept is just beautiful.
Yes, I heard about KDE, the French government and ${work} looking at
Matrix and so ended up looking at it. The first impression was quite
good :-)
I'm not so confident about bridges though; they are far from
user-friendly. Native rooms give a better experience.
Ansgar
Re: Debian presence on newer platforms
Hi Martin On 2019/03/25 21:16, martin f krafft wrote: > Quoting "Jonathan Carter", who wrote on 2019-03-25 at 20:42 Uhr +0200: >> It's a free software alternative to Slack, but it's not a mere copy, >> Mattermost is a superset of Slack in terms of features. Mattermost >> integrates with many different existing services. In particular, it >> also integrates really well with GitLab, […] > > Matrix bots also provide integration with GitHub and GitLab in similar > ways. Matrix also has bridging to Mattermost. > > And while surely not representative: 11 out of 12 teams I personally > know who looked at Matrix and Mattermost a couple of years back and went > with Mattermost then are now migrating to Matrix, which has the > following benefits: > > - federation > - multi-device end-to-end encryption (though obviously not in > bridged rooms) > - real-time voice/video conferencing > - widgets > > Yes, I am a huge Matrix evangelist. And why wouldn't I? Cool, I'm not particularly married to mattermost, but it's what I know and it works great for me, I actually neglected to say in my previous mail that personally I would consider Matrix as much as Mattermost... although I've already contributed in swaying me more to the Matrix side :) (I didn't know it had real-time voice/video conferencing... that's also pretty cool, might be nice for DebConf remote attendees if it becomes more of a formal part of Debian) -Jonathan -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋ https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org ⠈⠳⣄ Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.
Re: Debian presence on newer platforms
Quoting "John Paul Adrian Glaubitz", who wrote on 2019-03-25 at 20:23 Uhr +0100: Does Matrix allow a client to be idling on some server to act as a bouncer? There's matrix-ircd, which is in theory a client that acts as an IRCd. I write "in theory" because it's abandonware. But otherwise with Matrix you don't need bouncers. Your homeserver is your bouncer. You can log in there with many devices, and they'll all sync whenever online. Quoting "Ansgar", who wrote on 2019-03-25 at 20:26 Uhr +0100: As a simple test I tried to join #debian over the bridge. It doesn't work out of the box as #debian need registered nicks. This is something that #debian can work around. We had this problem with #linux.conf.au. See last FAQ of the page I linked. https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/wiki/End-user-FAQ I'm not so confident about bridges though; they are far from user-friendly. Native rooms give a better experience. This can be fixed. Also, we should have this discussion on #debian-matrix, or another mailing list. Sorry for bringing my evangelism to -vote. -- .''`. martin f. krafft @martinkrafft : :' : proud Debian developer `. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduck `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems "it isn't pollution that's harming the environment. it's the impurities in our air and water that are doing it." - dan quayle digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital GPG signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/sig-policy/999bbcc4/current)
Re: Debian presence on newer platforms
Quoting Jonathan Carter (2019-03-25 20:20:11) > Hi Martin > > On 2019/03/25 21:16, martin f krafft wrote: > > And while surely not representative: 11 out of 12 teams I personally > > know who looked at Matrix and Mattermost a couple of years back and > > went with Mattermost then are now migrating to Matrix, which has the > > following benefits: [...] > > - real-time voice/video conferencing [...] > (I didn't know it had real-time voice/video conferencing... that's > also pretty cool, might be nice for DebConf remote attendees if it > becomes more of a formal part of Debian) Matrix doesn't really do realtime A/V conferencing. The Matrix client "Riot Web" (and probably "Riot Desktop" as well, but not "Riot Android" or "Riot iOS" afaik) - offers a plugin to load Jitsi Meet in rooms. This means constraints like concurrent users and bandwidth load and reliability are same as when using https://meet.jit.si/ - benefit is convenience of all Riot users in a Matrix room being auto-registered for the Jitsi Meet room as well. - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: signature
Re: Debian presence on newer platforms
Hi El 25/3/19 a las 19:42, Jonathan Carter escribió: > > Here are some of them many of you may already be familiar with. > > 1. Mastodon > > Mastodon is a twitter-like platform with a tweetdeck-like interface. > > More on Mastodon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastodon_(software) > Follow me on Mastodon! :) https://mastodon.xyz/@highvoltage > Debian is already in Mastodon (which federates with GNU Social): https://fosstodon.org/@debian (it's a non-official account replicating what is posted in https://micronews.debian.org ). Kind regards -- Laura Arjona Reina https://wiki.debian.org/LauraArjona -- Laura Arjona Reina https://wiki.debian.org/LauraArjona Sent with K-9 mail
Re: Debian presence on newer platforms
Ansgar writes: > As a simple test I tried to join #debian over the bridge. It doesn't > work out of the box as #debian need registered nicks. > > Figuring out how to register a nickname on OFTC over the Matrix bridge > and having to do that before joining a channel is a pretty high barrier. This was a problem for the last linux.conf.au which uses Matrix successfully. For me the process made perfect since *after* I had done it. Surely it wouldn't be too difficult to write some sort of tool to automate the process? -- Brian May
Re: Debian presence on newer platforms
On 15352 March 1977, ans...@debian.org wrote: Do you think Debian should be more active to establish (official) presence on newer platforms? For those that are free, sure. In particular I also wonder if Debian should look at Matrix[1]: it is a free and decentralized platform, and the UI (of Riot[2]) seems more friendly than IRC clients. I think that doesn't need a DPL. Anyone who wants can do it. And setup (to speeak in irc terms) channels for the users to get in. And then it can go the usual way of "the more people use it, the more important it becomes". Similar things also apply to mailing lists; there are solutions that might be more accessible to some users (e.g. mailman3's web interface which for example Fedora uses). Though I can't say much about those as I haven't used them so far. While I agree that some "more modern" going way would be nice for lists, I don't think that is an easy task. Nor one where DPL can do much (unless listmasters need some resources that DPL can approve for such a change). Its up to the listmasters, though as far as i know, our current setup is anything but easily converted. -- bye, Joerg
Re: Debian presence on newer platforms
On Mon, 25 Mar 2019, Joerg Jaspert wrote: > On 15352 March 1977, ans...@debian.org wrote: > > > Do you think Debian should be more active to establish (official) > > presence on newer platforms? > > For those that are free, sure. > > > In particular I also wonder if Debian should look at Matrix[1]: it is a > > free and decentralized platform, and the UI (of Riot[2]) seems more > > friendly than IRC clients. > > I think that doesn't need a DPL. Anyone who wants can do it. And setup > (to speeak in irc terms) channels for the users to get in. And then it > can go the usual way of "the more people use it, the more important it > becomes". > > > Similar things also apply to mailing lists; there are solutions that > > might be more accessible to some users (e.g. mailman3's web interface > > which for example Fedora uses). Though I can't say much about those as > > I haven't used them so far. > > While I agree that some "more modern" going way would be nice for lists, > I don't think that is an easy task. Nor one where DPL can do much > (unless listmasters need some resources that DPL can approve for such a > change). Its up to the listmasters, though as far as i know, our current > setup is anything but easily converted. In my experience as a former mailman admin and listadmin mailman is a no-go. Getting our feature set even nearly into mailman is impossible, takes years and will just get us an unmaintainable thing. I don't want to ever run a bigger mailman setup again. Just my 2 cent Alex - Debian Listmaster
Re: Debian presence on newer platforms
Hi Alex, Alexander Wirt: >> While I agree that some "more modern" going way would be nice for lists, >> I don't think that is an easy task. Nor one where DPL can do much >> (unless listmasters need some resources that DPL can approve for such a >> change). Its up to the listmasters, though as far as i know, our current >> setup is anything but easily converted. >> In my experience as a former mailman admin and listadmin mailman is a no-go. > Getting our feature set even nearly into mailman is impossible, takes years > and will just get us an unmaintainable thing. I don't want to ever run a > bigger mailman setup again. Can you give an example, what from "our feature set" is missing in mailman? Also, you probably mean mailman2, right? Have you taken a look at mailman3 recently? Cheers, jonas signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Debian presence on newer platforms
Hi, On 3/25/19 3:42 PM, Jonathan Carter wrote: > > There's a massive amount of interesting things happening in the space. > Matrix is good, but Mattermost is certainly worth looking at as well. > > https://mattermost.com/ > > It's a free software alternative to Slack, but it's not a mere copy, > Mattermost is a superset of Slack in terms of features. Mattermost > integrates with many different existing services. In particular, it also > integrates really well with GitLab, to the point where GitLab ships a > configuration of GitLab that contains an entire Mattermost installation. > You can also enable commands for channels and users that let them > contron GitLab right out of chat (or even add completely new commands > that control stuff pretty much anywhere): > > https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/user/project/integrations/mattermost_slash_commands.html There is also Rocket.chat. https://rocket.chat/ Best regards, -- Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana (phls) Curitiba - Brasil Debian Developer Diretor do Instituto para Conservação de Tecnologias Livres Membro da Comunidade Curitiba Livre Site: http://www.phls.com.br GNU/Linux user: 228719 GPG ID: 0443C450 Organizador da DebConf19 - Conferência Mundial de Desenvolvedores(as) Debian Curitiba - 21 a 28 de julho de 2019 http://debconf19.debconf.org signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Debian presence on newer platforms
On 2019/03/25 22:27, Laura Arjona Reina wrote: >> More on Mastodon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastodon_(software) >> Follow me on Mastodon! :) https://mastodon.xyz/@highvoltage >> > > Debian is already in Mastodon (which federates with GNU Social): > > https://fosstodon.org/@debian > > (it's a non-official account replicating what is posted in > https://micronews.debian.org ). Ah yes, I should've mentioned that, thanks! -Jonathan -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋ https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org ⠈⠳⣄ Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.
Re: Debian presence on newer platforms
On 2019/03/26 04:09, Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana wrote: > There is also Rocket.chat. > https://rocket.chat/ Not really the place for me to rant about rocketchat, but I've used and supported it before and wasn't impressed with its quality, it's one of those node.js spaghetti cases and if presented with any kind of a choice I'd rather not have to support it. -Jonathan -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋ https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org ⠈⠳⣄ Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.
Re: Debian presence on newer platforms
On Tue, 26 Mar 2019, Jonas Meurer wrote: > Hi Alex, > > Alexander Wirt: > >> While I agree that some "more modern" going way would be nice for lists, > >> I don't think that is an easy task. Nor one where DPL can do much > >> (unless listmasters need some resources that DPL can approve for such a > >> change). Its up to the listmasters, though as far as i know, our current > >> setup is anything but easily converted. > >> In my experience as a former mailman admin and listadmin mailman is a > no-go. > > Getting our feature set even nearly into mailman is impossible, takes years > > and will just get us an unmaintainable thing. I don't want to ever run a > > bigger mailman setup again. > > Can you give an example, what from "our feature set" is missing in > mailman? Also, you probably mean mailman2, right? Have you taken a look > at mailman3 recently? Sure, just a few coming into mind: All those gpg related features we use, our spam removal tools, our special archiving hacks, we way we support blacklist through several lists, our second line of spamfiltering, crossassassin, the way we can do management on several lists and probably a lot more I forgot. It may take man years to do a migration (in fact we talked about that a few days ago in our internal IRC channel and this is more or less consense about the needed effort). And I tested hyperkitty some time ago with our archive and it was unusable slow. Alex signature.asc Description: PGP signature
