Re: A question to the Debian community ...

[Russ Allbery]

Clint Adams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 02:07:36PM +0200, Wouter Verhelst wrote:

>> If you're out to improve the world and get it rid of all social
>> unfairnesses, I suggest you find yourself another project.

> Now there's a shitty thing to say.

Anything else would be simply inaccurate.

What do you expect?  Do you tell people that breaking up with their
partners is a shitty thing to do?  Lots of breakups are unfair.  They
happen anyway.  Some of them come complete with the horrified and offended
ex who can't understand why the relationship fell apart and who can't
believe how horribly unfair the breakup was, and keeps hanging around,
convinced that one day you'll realize just how badly you treated them and
then everything will be wonderful again.  Often they're wonderfully decent
human beings -- after all, that's why the relationship started in the
first place.  Those are sometimes the ones that make you feel like crap.
You still don't get back together, and if you do, it's inevitably a
horrible mistake.

It was a failure of social interaction.  Last time I checked, we're still
humans, with all the associated baggage and standard problems.  If you
have some solution to falling outs between friendships, communities, and
relationships that allows them all to be resolved fairly, you should quit
your job and start writing self-help books, because you'd be richer than
Bill Gates.

Debian is not a social experiment in conflict-free problem resolution.
It's a project for creating a free operating system.  Tackle one hard
problem at a time.  In the meantime, use the best techniques you can in
other problem areas, realize that it's not an area of expertise and
occasionally it's going to be more broken than it needs to be, and don't
spend the rest of time revisiting decisions over and over.  At some point,
you have to say enough is enough, walk away from the mess, and move on.
Poking at it forever doesn't make it better.

-- 
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED])   


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Re: A question to the Debian community ...

[Sven Luther]

On Fri, May 18, 2007 at 12:05:39AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Clint Adams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 02:07:36PM +0200, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> 
> >> If you're out to improve the world and get it rid of all social
> >> unfairnesses, I suggest you find yourself another project.
> 
> > Now there's a shitty thing to say.
> 
> Anything else would be simply inaccurate.
> 
> What do you expect?  Do you tell people that breaking up with their
> partners is a shitty thing to do?  Lots of breakups are unfair.  They
> happen anyway.  Some of them come complete with the horrified and offended
> ex who can't understand why the relationship fell apart and who can't
> believe how horribly unfair the breakup was, and keeps hanging around,
> convinced that one day you'll realize just how badly you treated them and
> then everything will be wonderful again.  Often they're wonderfully decent
> human beings -- after all, that's why the relationship started in the
> first place.  Those are sometimes the ones that make you feel like crap.
> You still don't get back together, and if you do, it's inevitably a
> horrible mistake.
> 
> It was a failure of social interaction.  Last time I checked, we're still
> humans, with all the associated baggage and standard problems.  If you

Yes, we are all humans, except me, right ? 

> spend the rest of time revisiting decisions over and over.  At some point,
> you have to say enough is enough, walk away from the mess, and move on.
> Poking at it forever doesn't make it better.

So, why was the expulsion process restarted against me in february,
while i was trying to walk away from the mess and move on ? In february,
what could be reproached to me.

The problem is that we are all humans, but there are differences in
human behaviour, you can recognize your errors, and try to make amends,
and search a resolution, or you can behave badly, refuse any kind of
compromise apart full victory, and go at the other's throat until you
kill him.

Debian has decided to support the second behaviour here, and Debian not
being an amorphous thing with his own mind, debian is each and all
individual DDs, and this mean, that *YOU* have decided to support this
behaviour, and i was the victim sacrificed, and left bleeding on the
road side, because the other side could not accept anything but full
bloody victory.

You may see this as normal, but it will hurt debian in the long run far
far more than everything i have or could have done, and it is indeed a
shitty thing to let happen, which is why everyone prefers me silenced
rather than pointing the finger to what happened, and showing them their
guilt in this.

You don't like the messenge, so you shoot the messenger, right ?

Well, i believed better of humanity, i believed better of my fellow DDs,
i guess this is all my fault in believing in goodness rather than evil.

Saddened,

Sven Luther


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Re: A question to the Debian community ...

[Clint Adams]

On Fri, May 18, 2007 at 07:49:24AM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> Welcome to Debian, and the way those in power would like it to be. And
> then you wonder i am having such a problem since over a year now.

No, I don't wonder that at all.

On Fri, May 18, 2007 at 12:05:39AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> What do you expect?  Do you tell people that breaking up with their
> partners is a shitty thing to do?  Lots of breakups are unfair.  They
> happen anyway.  Some of them come complete with the horrified and offended
> ex who can't understand why the relationship fell apart and who can't
> believe how horribly unfair the breakup was, and keeps hanging around,
> convinced that one day you'll realize just how badly you treated them and
> then everything will be wonderful again.  Often they're wonderfully decent
> human beings -- after all, that's why the relationship started in the
> first place.  Those are sometimes the ones that make you feel like crap.
> You still don't get back together, and if you do, it's inevitably a
> horrible mistake.

I'm going to assume that you're alluding to the failed marriage of Sven
and Frans.  I have no idea why either of you think I am interested in
discussing the Sven saga, because I am not.


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Re: A question to the Debian community ...

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Fri, 18 May 2007 00:05:39 -0700, Russ Allbery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: 

> What do you expect?  Do you tell people that breaking up with their
> partners is a shitty thing to do?  Lots of breakups are unfair.  They
> happen anyway.  Some of them come complete with the horrified and
> offended ex who can't understand why the relationship fell apart and
> who can't believe how horribly unfair the breakup was, and keeps
> hanging around, convinced that one day you'll realize just how badly
> you treated them and then everything will be wonderful again.  Often
> they're wonderfully decent human beings -- after all, that's why the
> relationship started in the first place.  Those are sometimes the ones
> that make you feel like crap.  You still don't get back together, and
> if you do, it's inevitably a horrible mistake.

While all this is quite true, I don't think that it applies in
 this case: I don't see that the issue was handled unfairly.  The only
 unfair thing seems to be that the year long suspension did not come
 with a corresponding ban on the non technical mailing lists.

> It was a failure of social interaction. 

I think that is being far too unspecific. It was disruptive
 behaviour by a single individual, who managed  to get into a series of
 off putting, time wasting, irrelevant juvenile spats with a veritable
 who's who of people who are more than casually and peripherally
 involved in Debian, and action was taken to minimize the disruption.

This scores long off topic thread (which, in my official role,
 I do have to monitor) seems proof enough to me that the situation has
 not changed appreciably.

In the meanwhile, if this is not about an item that we are
 planning to hold a vote on, can we move this thread to some other
 mailing list, where I can safely killfile it?

manoj
-- 
I think the world is run by C students. Al McGuire
Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C


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Re: A question to the Debian community ...

[Daniel Jacobowitz]

On Fri, May 18, 2007 at 11:05:36AM -0400, Clint Adams wrote:
> I'm going to assume that you're alluding to the failed marriage of Sven
> and Frans.  I have no idea why either of you think I am interested in
> discussing the Sven saga, because I am not.

Then I recommend you not respond to discussions about it; that seems
to work.

-- 
Daniel Jacobowitz
CodeSourcery


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Re: A question to the Debian community ...

[Clint Adams]

On Fri, May 18, 2007 at 11:45:18AM -0400, Daniel Jacobowitz wrote:
> Then I recommend you not respond to discussions about it; that seems
> to work.

I apologize for the noise, and I apologize for not realizing that all
threads are really about Sven.


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Re: A question to the Debian community ...

[Sven Luther]

On Fri, May 18, 2007 at 10:48:45AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> On Fri, 18 May 2007 00:05:39 -0700, Russ Allbery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: 
> 
> > What do you expect?  Do you tell people that breaking up with their
> > partners is a shitty thing to do?  Lots of breakups are unfair.  They
> > happen anyway.  Some of them come complete with the horrified and
> > offended ex who can't understand why the relationship fell apart and
> > who can't believe how horribly unfair the breakup was, and keeps
> > hanging around, convinced that one day you'll realize just how badly
> > you treated them and then everything will be wonderful again.  Often
> > they're wonderfully decent human beings -- after all, that's why the
> > relationship started in the first place.  Those are sometimes the ones
> > that make you feel like crap.  You still don't get back together, and
> > if you do, it's inevitably a horrible mistake.
> 
> While all this is quite true, I don't think that it applies in
>  this case: I don't see that the issue was handled unfairly.  The only
>  unfair thing seems to be that the year long suspension did not come
>  with a corresponding ban on the non technical mailing lists.

Naturally, you being on the winning side of it, it can only be fair,
right ? And the fact that many have compared your list behaviour with
mine, but nobody ever inquieted you, has nothing to do with it.

Notice that one can map the starting of the problems involving me,
exactly to the time you started showing interest again in the kernel
team, and that you, jonas where as present in the flamewar of that time
as me.

> > It was a failure of social interaction. 
> 
> I think that is being far too unspecific. It was disruptive
>  behaviour by a single individual, who managed  to get into a series of
>  off putting, time wasting, irrelevant juvenile spats with a veritable
>  who's who of people who are more than casually and peripherally
>  involved in Debian, and action was taken to minimize the disruption.

Right, and you yourself, or frans, or others, have absolutely no fault
in what happened ? 

> This scores long off topic thread (which, in my official role,
>  I do have to monitor) seems proof enough to me that the situation has
>  not changed appreciably.

Indeed, the situation has not changed, despite my numerous appeals for
a reasonable fair and just solution on this. I proposed that we held an
in-person meeting at FOSDEM, so we could solve this in a RL fashion, but
nobody was interested, and prefered to relaunch the hostilities in
restarting the ban.

> In the meanwhile, if this is not about an item that we are
>  planning to hold a vote on, can we move this thread to some other
>  mailing list, where I can safely killfile it?

This will come to a vote, don't worry.

Saddened,

Sven Luther


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