Re: General Resolution draft against spam.

[Manoj Srivastava]

>>"Sven" == Sven Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

 Sven> Well, manoj, the only problem is that when you filter spam, you do it
 Sven> after having paid for the download of the spam over a possibly slow and
 Sven> expensive modem connection.

Quit. So th solution is to apply spam filtering upstream --
 and to improve the spam filtering that is used. 

We already use spamassassin, but that may not be enough. I
 suggest we use crm114, which is better than bogofilter (since it uses
 more than just word counts). 

The answer is not to treat legitimate users like dirt, and
 force them to use the subscribe address (my subscribe address is
 never the address I post from).

manoj
-- 
 Ever feel like life was a game and you had the wrong instruction
 book?
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C

Re: General Resolution draft against spam.

[Manoj Srivastava]

>>"Sven" == Sven Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:


 Sven>   To avoid spam in debian lists:

 Sven>   - Being able to post is a privilege, not a right. The natural way of
 Sven>   obtaining this privilege, for so called "open" lists, is by
 Sven>   subscribing
 Sven>   to them and using the same address in the From: field, or by using
 Sven>   an email addresses which has been previously subscribed to a special
 Sven>   white list.

That would preclude gettting mail from me, and people with
 similar mail setups as mine. My subscribe address is a mail bounce
 address, which remains constant, as I move. My Outbound address
 reflects th current ISP arrangement.

 Sven>   No other mail will reach the lists until it's approved by a moderator
 Sven>   If there are no moderators for a given list, these mails will go to
 Sven>   /dev/null (so to speak).

More work, and also delays, for the innocent.

 Sven> This was the last item of the proposal, and maybe one of the most
 Sven> strongly objected too, both now and in the past.

 Sven> The debian mailing lists are open, and we want them to stay that way.
 Sven> Using spamassassin on the lists, will lower the quantity of spam a lot
 Sven> (just check your spamassassin cache and count the mail in it, and you
 Sven> will be convinced), and thus satisfy the people wanting this kind of
 Sven> extreme measures.

Quite. Why not augment spamassassin with content based  filters?

manoj

-- 
 "For a male and female to live continuously together is...
 biologically speaking, an extremely unnatural condition." Robert
 Briffault
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C

Re: General Resolution draft against spam.

[Sven Luther]

On Fri, Oct 18, 2002 at 08:24:09AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> >>"Sven" == Sven Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
>  Sven> Well, manoj, the only problem is that when you filter spam, you do it
>  Sven> after having paid for the download of the spam over a possibly slow and
>  Sven> expensive modem connection.
> 
>   Quit. So th solution is to apply spam filtering upstream --
>  and to improve the spam filtering that is used. 
> 
>   We already use spamassassin, but that may not be enough. I
>  suggest we use crm114, which is better than bogofilter (since it uses
>  more than just word counts). 

What about the filtering mails crossposted to lots of list, these
are the one that escape my own spamassassin setup mostly, and i receive
12+ copies of them. Can spamassassin, or another spam killer do such a
test ? 

Friendly,

Sven Luther

Re: General Resolution draft against spam.

[Santiago Vila]

On Fri, 18 Oct 2002, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>   The answer is not to treat legitimate users like dirt, and
>  force them to use the subscribe address (my subscribe address is
>  never the address I post from).

No, you could subscribe the address you post from to the "white list".

Smartlist then would check that the From: is subscribed to the list you
are posting OR subscribed to the white list before accepting the message.

Unless you change ISP several times a week, this would not be a
problem for you, Manoj.

More to the point: When Bruce was the Project Leader, there was a
procedure to validate every email address using cookies. You had only
to answer the cookie once for every different From: you want to use.

This procedure worked very well, it didn't require any moderators, it
was 100% effective against spam, and it was never a big problem for
legitimate users.

Re: General Resolution draft against spam.

[Manoj Srivastava]

>>"Sven" == Sven Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:


 Sven> What about the filtering mails crossposted to lots of list, these
 Sven> are the one that escape my own spamassassin setup mostly, and i receive
 Sven> 12+ copies of them. Can spamassassin, or another spam killer do such a
 Sven> test ? 

Get a better mail processing system.  

Help set up a better filter on the mailing list.

manoj
-- 
 General notions are generally wrong. Lady M.W. Montagu
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C

Re: General Resolution draft against spam.

[Manoj Srivastava]

>>"Santiago" == Santiago Vila <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

 Santiago> On Fri, 18 Oct 2002, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
 >> The answer is not to treat legitimate users like dirt, and
 >> force them to use the subscribe address (my subscribe address is
 >> never the address I post from).

 Santiago> No, you could subscribe the address you post from to the
 Santiago> "white list". 

These are not constant, nor known to me a priori. I travel a lot.

 Santiago> Unless you change ISP several times a week, this would not be a
 Santiago> problem for you, Manoj.

I change ISP's several times a month, and, indeed, sometimes
 use more than 2 a week.

 Santiago> More to the point: When Bruce was the Project Leader, there
 Santiago> was a procedure to validate every email address using
 Santiago> cookies. You had only to answer the cookie once for every
 Santiago> different From: you want to use.  This procedure worked
 Santiago> very well, it didn't require any moderators, it was 100%
 Santiago> effective against spam, and it was never a big problem for
 Santiago> legitimate users.

This pushes the burden on to innocent people; and that is what
 I object to. I often am not rachable at the addresses I post from;
 and hence can't answer cookies.


manoj
-- 
 The youth of today and of those to come after them would assess the
 work of the revolution in accordance with values of their own ... a
 thousand years from now, all of them, even Marx, Engels, and Lenin,
 would possibly appear rather ridiculous.  -- Mao Tse-tung
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C

Re: General Resolution draft against spam.

[Santiago Vila]

On Sat, 19 Oct 2002, Manoj Srivastava wrote:

>  Santiago> Unless you change ISP several times a week, this would not be a
>  Santiago> problem for you, Manoj.
>
>   I change ISP's several times a month, and, indeed, sometimes
>  use more than 2 a week.

Well, but most people don't do that.

Can you configure your mail client so that it adds a custom header,
like "X-Debian:"? That would be more than enough to stop spammers, and
I believe it would be more than enough as well for people who change
ISP as often as you.

My points is that posting to a mailing list should be a privilege, not
a "right". There may be multiple ways to obtain this privilege. Being
subscribed is only one of them, being in the white list may be another
one, but I never said that they should be the only possible ways.

Re: General Resolution draft against spam.

[Manoj Srivastava]

>>"Santiago" == Santiago Vila <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

 Santiago> Well, but most people don't do that.

Where is the survey?


 Santiago> My points is that posting to a mailing list should be a
 Santiago> privilege, not a "right". 

I strongly disagree. We are vndors who provide an OS. I know
 we do not treat users as customers, but being a debian user is not a
 privilege. 


You treat your users and developers like dirt, telling them
 that working on improving debian is a privilege, You harm  the
 project. 

I am happy you withdrew this flawed GR.

manoj
-- 
 For years a secret shame destroyed my peace-- I'd not read Eliot,
 Auden or MacNiece. But now I think a thought that brings me hope:
 Neither had Chaucer, Shakespeare, Milton, Pope. Justin Richardson.
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C

Re: General Resolution draft against spam.

[Manoj Srivastava]

>>"Sven" == Sven Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

 Sven> Well, manoj, the only problem is that when you filter spam, you do it
 Sven> after having paid for the download of the spam over a possibly slow and
 Sven> expensive modem connection.

Quit. So th solution is to apply spam filtering upstream --
 and to improve the spam filtering that is used. 

We already use spamassassin, but that may not be enough. I
 suggest we use crm114, which is better than bogofilter (since it uses
 more than just word counts). 

The answer is not to treat legitimate users like dirt, and
 force them to use the subscribe address (my subscribe address is
 never the address I post from).

manoj
-- 
 Ever feel like life was a game and you had the wrong instruction
 book?
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: General Resolution draft against spam.

[Manoj Srivastava]

>>"Sven" == Sven Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:


 Sven>   To avoid spam in debian lists:

 Sven>   - Being able to post is a privilege, not a right. The natural way of
 Sven>   obtaining this privilege, for so called "open" lists, is by
 Sven>   subscribing
 Sven>   to them and using the same address in the From: field, or by using
 Sven>   an email addresses which has been previously subscribed to a special
 Sven>   white list.

That would preclude gettting mail from me, and people with
 similar mail setups as mine. My subscribe address is a mail bounce
 address, which remains constant, as I move. My Outbound address
 reflects th current ISP arrangement.

 Sven>   No other mail will reach the lists until it's approved by a moderator
 Sven>   If there are no moderators for a given list, these mails will go to
 Sven>   /dev/null (so to speak).

More work, and also delays, for the innocent.

 Sven> This was the last item of the proposal, and maybe one of the most
 Sven> strongly objected too, both now and in the past.

 Sven> The debian mailing lists are open, and we want them to stay that way.
 Sven> Using spamassassin on the lists, will lower the quantity of spam a lot
 Sven> (just check your spamassassin cache and count the mail in it, and you
 Sven> will be convinced), and thus satisfy the people wanting this kind of
 Sven> extreme measures.

Quite. Why not augment spamassassin with content based  filters?

manoj

-- 
 "For a male and female to live continuously together is...
 biologically speaking, an extremely unnatural condition." Robert
 Briffault
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: General Resolution draft against spam.

[Sven Luther]

On Fri, Oct 18, 2002 at 08:24:09AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> >>"Sven" == Sven Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
>  Sven> Well, manoj, the only problem is that when you filter spam, you do it
>  Sven> after having paid for the download of the spam over a possibly slow and
>  Sven> expensive modem connection.
> 
>   Quit. So th solution is to apply spam filtering upstream --
>  and to improve the spam filtering that is used. 
> 
>   We already use spamassassin, but that may not be enough. I
>  suggest we use crm114, which is better than bogofilter (since it uses
>  more than just word counts). 

What about the filtering mails crossposted to lots of list, these
are the one that escape my own spamassassin setup mostly, and i receive
12+ copies of them. Can spamassassin, or another spam killer do such a
test ? 

Friendly,

Sven Luther


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: General Resolution draft against spam.

[Santiago Vila]

On Fri, 18 Oct 2002, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>   The answer is not to treat legitimate users like dirt, and
>  force them to use the subscribe address (my subscribe address is
>  never the address I post from).

No, you could subscribe the address you post from to the "white list".

Smartlist then would check that the From: is subscribed to the list you
are posting OR subscribed to the white list before accepting the message.

Unless you change ISP several times a week, this would not be a
problem for you, Manoj.

More to the point: When Bruce was the Project Leader, there was a
procedure to validate every email address using cookies. You had only
to answer the cookie once for every different From: you want to use.

This procedure worked very well, it didn't require any moderators, it
was 100% effective against spam, and it was never a big problem for
legitimate users.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: General Resolution draft against spam.

[Manoj Srivastava]

>>"Sven" == Sven Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:


 Sven> What about the filtering mails crossposted to lots of list, these
 Sven> are the one that escape my own spamassassin setup mostly, and i receive
 Sven> 12+ copies of them. Can spamassassin, or another spam killer do such a
 Sven> test ? 

Get a better mail processing system.  

Help set up a better filter on the mailing list.

manoj
-- 
 General notions are generally wrong. Lady M.W. Montagu
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: General Resolution draft against spam.

[Manoj Srivastava]

>>"Santiago" == Santiago Vila <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

 Santiago> On Fri, 18 Oct 2002, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
 >> The answer is not to treat legitimate users like dirt, and
 >> force them to use the subscribe address (my subscribe address is
 >> never the address I post from).

 Santiago> No, you could subscribe the address you post from to the
 Santiago> "white list". 

These are not constant, nor known to me a priori. I travel a lot.

 Santiago> Unless you change ISP several times a week, this would not be a
 Santiago> problem for you, Manoj.

I change ISP's several times a month, and, indeed, sometimes
 use more than 2 a week.

 Santiago> More to the point: When Bruce was the Project Leader, there
 Santiago> was a procedure to validate every email address using
 Santiago> cookies. You had only to answer the cookie once for every
 Santiago> different From: you want to use.  This procedure worked
 Santiago> very well, it didn't require any moderators, it was 100%
 Santiago> effective against spam, and it was never a big problem for
 Santiago> legitimate users.

This pushes the burden on to innocent people; and that is what
 I object to. I often am not rachable at the addresses I post from;
 and hence can't answer cookies.


manoj
-- 
 The youth of today and of those to come after them would assess the
 work of the revolution in accordance with values of their own ... a
 thousand years from now, all of them, even Marx, Engels, and Lenin,
 would possibly appear rather ridiculous.  -- Mao Tse-tung
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: General Resolution draft against spam.

[Santiago Vila]

On Sat, 19 Oct 2002, Manoj Srivastava wrote:

>  Santiago> Unless you change ISP several times a week, this would not be a
>  Santiago> problem for you, Manoj.
>
>   I change ISP's several times a month, and, indeed, sometimes
>  use more than 2 a week.

Well, but most people don't do that.

Can you configure your mail client so that it adds a custom header,
like "X-Debian:"? That would be more than enough to stop spammers, and
I believe it would be more than enough as well for people who change
ISP as often as you.

My points is that posting to a mailing list should be a privilege, not
a "right". There may be multiple ways to obtain this privilege. Being
subscribed is only one of them, being in the white list may be another
one, but I never said that they should be the only possible ways.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: General Resolution draft against spam.

[Manoj Srivastava]

>>"Santiago" == Santiago Vila <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

 Santiago> Well, but most people don't do that.

Where is the survey?


 Santiago> My points is that posting to a mailing list should be a
 Santiago> privilege, not a "right". 

I strongly disagree. We are vndors who provide an OS. I know
 we do not treat users as customers, but being a debian user is not a
 privilege. 


You treat your users and developers like dirt, telling them
 that working on improving debian is a privilege, You harm  the
 project. 

I am happy you withdrew this flawed GR.

manoj
-- 
 For years a secret shame destroyed my peace-- I'd not read Eliot,
 Auden or MacNiece. But now I think a thought that brings me hope:
 Neither had Chaucer, Shakespeare, Milton, Pope. Justin Richardson.
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]