Re: How to investigate sudden shutdown?

[Alexander V. Makartsev]

On 14.12.2022 12:22, Tobias Diekershoff wrote:

Hey everyone,

perhaps someone of you can help me with tool / log file I have not investigated
so far. I have a Thinkpad with Debian Bullseye on it, running KDE/Plasma as main
desktop environment and from time to time it just turn off without prior
indication to do so.
Does it power off unexpectedly while you actively working on it, or you 
just see it powered off when you check it after a while?
These kinds of symptoms are hard to diagnose and usually indicate a 
hardware problem.
Please, give us more information about your laptop. You can use "inxi" 
utility for that:

    # inxi -a -v8 -z -za

You can send the output from "inxi" to paste service[1] and provide us 
with just a link to it in next mail.


Is laptop's battery(-ies) in good shape, i.e. it can sustain laptop at 
least for a few minutes with PSU disconnected?
If battery is dead, disconnect the battery and try to reproduce the 
issue with only PSU connected.



It it not particular warm before and journalctl / dmsg logs are looking
unsuspicious around these sudden shutdowns for me.

Any pointer what else could be investigated (and I do realize that these are
very vague symptoms) would be appreciated!

A good place to start is to check journald logs for previous boot:
    # journalctl --boot -1

"-1" is an index, so "0" is current boot, "-2" is two boots prior, etc.


[1] https://paste.debian.net/

--
With kindest regards, Alexander.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
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⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄

Re: How to investigate sudden shutdown?

[tomas]

On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 01:40:06PM +0500, Alexander V. Makartsev wrote:
> On 14.12.2022 12:22, Tobias Diekershoff wrote:
> > Hey everyone,
> > 
> > perhaps someone of you can help me with tool / log file I have not 
> > investigated
> > so far. I have a Thinkpad with Debian Bullseye on it, running KDE/Plasma as 
> > main
> > desktop environment and from time to time it just turn off without prior
> > indication to do so.
> Does it power off unexpectedly while you actively working on it, or you just
> see it powered off when you check it after a while?

As another avenue: have you tried to run something else (e.g. memtest) on the
machine for a while?

Cheers
-- 
t


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Description: PGP signature

Re: Independent menu system

[Tom Schwindl]

On Wed Dec 14, 2022 at 8:33 AM CET, Michel Verdier wrote:
> Le 14 décembre 2022 paulf a écrit :
>
> > I prefer to run i3wm, but it has no native menu system. Like Openbox,
> > GNOME, Plasma, etc. Does anyone know of a menu system/program which
> > reads *.desktop files, and can supply categorized menus, but doesn't
> > insist on being run under a non-i3wm desktop environment?
>
> I used wmii and now dwm with dmenu (suckless-tools). It is not a popup on
> screen but prints on status bar a list of executables. You can build your
> own script to list whatever you want, so why not desktop files. You
> select one with regex which require 1 or 2 keypress. Very quick and
> small tool, suckless in fact :)

I'd recommend dmenu, too. It pretty much is what you described.

--
Best Regards,
Tom Schwindl

Re: Independent menu system

[Pierre Tomon]

There is also jgmenu, fast, customizable, does not use toolkits but
cairo and pango to render the menu. Possibility to add widgets such as
search box.

https://github.com/jgmenu/jgmenu
In the repo.

Re: Independent menu system

[paulf]

On Wed, 14 Dec 2022 11:55:39 +0100
Pierre Tomon  wrote:

> 
> There is also jgmenu, fast, customizable, does not use toolkits but
> cairo and pango to render the menu. Possibility to add widgets such as
> search box.
> 
> https://github.com/jgmenu/jgmenu
> In the repo.
> 

Yes, I found this. It appears to produce the same type of menu that
other desktop environments provide, without their panels.

Paul

-- 
Paul M. Foster
Personal Blog: http://noferblatz.com
Company Site: http://quillandmouse.com
Software Projects: https://gitlab.com/paulmfoster

Re: Independent menu system

[Max Nikulin]

On 14/12/2022 06:22, pa...@quillandmouse.com wrote:


I prefer to run i3wm, but it has no native menu system. Like Openbox,
GNOME, Plasma, etc. Does anyone know of a menu system/program which
reads *.desktop files, and can supply categorized menus, but doesn't
insist on being run under a non-i3wm desktop environment?


See the "menu" package. It is debian menu and /etc/menu-methods/fluxbox 
is an example how window managers may use it.

Re: How to investigate sudden shutdown?

[David Wright]

On Wed 14 Dec 2022 at 08:22:01 (+0100), Tobias Diekershoff wrote:
> 
> perhaps someone of you can help me with tool / log file I have not 
> investigated
> so far. I have a Thinkpad with Debian Bullseye on it, running KDE/Plasma as 
> main
> desktop environment and from time to time it just turn off without prior
> indication to do so.

How old is the machine?
Spinning rust or SSD?
How have the battery and power handling been performing recently?
What type of connector is used for the AC power adapter?

> It it not particular warm before and journalctl / dmsg logs are looking
> unsuspicious around these sudden shutdowns for me.
> 
> Any pointer what else could be investigated (and I do realize that these are
> very vague symptoms) would be appreciated!

Do shutdowns occur only on AC, or only on battery, or both?
Do the shutdowns coincide with moments of high load?
Do they occur when you adjust the angle of the screen?
Do they occur when the machine is mechanically undisturbed,
ie when it's sitting on a table?

By now you've probably surmised that my suspicions would fall
on the power handling. That's from my experience running laptops.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Independent menu system

[Pierre Tomon]

Le Wed, 14 Dec 2022 07:42:15 -0500,
 a écrit :

> On Wed, 14 Dec 2022 11:55:39 +0100
> Pierre Tomon  wrote:
> 
> > 
> > There is also jgmenu, fast, customizable, does not use toolkits but
> > cairo and pango to render the menu. Possibility to add widgets such
> > as search box.
> > 
> > https://github.com/jgmenu/jgmenu
> > In the repo.
> >   
> 
> Yes, I found this. It appears to produce the same type of menu that
> other desktop environments provide, without their panels.
> 
> Paul
> 

Yes by default, but you can also create your own menu in jgmenu
flavoured CSV format.

testing update of firefox (to firefox_108.0-1) may not work

[songbird]

  i had to downgrade afterwards,

  bug has been reported so no more bugs need to be filed.

  just a warning to others who may be running testing.

  the specific error message is:

XPCOMGlueLoad error for file /usr/lib/firefox/libnssutil3.so: 
/usr/lib/firefox/libnssutil3.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file 
or directory


  songbird

Re: Independent menu system

[John Cunningham]

Seconding dmenu. I used dwm for a long time and dmenu was great.

John Cunningham


On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 5:44 AM Tom Schwindl  wrote:

> On Wed Dec 14, 2022 at 8:33 AM CET, Michel Verdier wrote:
> > Le 14 décembre 2022 paulf a écrit :
> >
> > > I prefer to run i3wm, but it has no native menu system. Like Openbox,
> > > GNOME, Plasma, etc. Does anyone know of a menu system/program which
> > > reads *.desktop files, and can supply categorized menus, but doesn't
> > > insist on being run under a non-i3wm desktop environment?
> >
> > I used wmii and now dwm with dmenu (suckless-tools). It is not a popup on
> > screen but prints on status bar a list of executables. You can build your
> > own script to list whatever you want, so why not desktop files. You
> > select one with regex which require 1 or 2 keypress. Very quick and
> > small tool, suckless in fact :)
>
> I'd recommend dmenu, too. It pretty much is what you described.
>
> --
> Best Regards,
> Tom Schwindl
>
>

Re: stopping mass surveillance

[operation . privacyenforcement]

On 1/9/84 19:84, Andy Smith wrote:

Hello,
Can't comment on something you haven't elaborated upon.
First step, explain why your idea is better than, say, Tor.


It is about solving a problem that counts as technically unsolveable.
The idea is about making any type of traffic correlation including 
timing attacks very hard up to impossible. It also would make 
statistical analyses of routed traffic, by user behaviour caused network 
traffic routing much more catchier. If the product is available it will 
be very hard even for government agencies and people with huge amounts 
of money and access to large parts of the internet infrastructure to 
reallocate traffic back to sender or destination.
Imagine agencies could not distinguish a difference between all of your 
users. Does it not sound interesting?


This solutions needs to be developed to reclaim our fundamental rights 
technically and enforce our right to privacy. It is right before 1984 
and we need a privacy revolution, an enforcement of privacy.

Re: Stop feeding the trolls ( Was: Re: stopping mass surveillance)

[operation . privacyenforcement]

On 12/13/22 11:38, Henning Follmann wrote: Stop feeding the trolls


Stop being not respectful, biased when you can not be sure about this 
after one message only. I am not.

Re: stopping mass surveillance

[Jeremy Hendricks]

Please provide code examples, flow chart, or a white paper.

On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 5:06 PM 
wrote:

> On 1/9/84 19:84, Andy Smith wrote:
> > Hello,
> > Can't comment on something you haven't elaborated upon.
> > First step, explain why your idea is better than, say, Tor.
>
> It is about solving a problem that counts as technically unsolveable.
> The idea is about making any type of traffic correlation including
> timing attacks very hard up to impossible. It also would make
> statistical analyses of routed traffic, by user behaviour caused network
> traffic routing much more catchier. If the product is available it will
> be very hard even for government agencies and people with huge amounts
> of money and access to large parts of the internet infrastructure to
> reallocate traffic back to sender or destination.
> Imagine agencies could not distinguish a difference between all of your
> users. Does it not sound interesting?
>
> This solutions needs to be developed to reclaim our fundamental rights
> technically and enforce our right to privacy. It is right before 1984
> and we need a privacy revolution, an enforcement of privacy.
>
>

Re: testing update of firefox (to firefox_108.0-1) may not work

[Ash Joubert]

On 15/12/2022 04:31, songbird wrote:

   i had to downgrade afterwards,
   bug has been reported so no more bugs need to be filed.
   just a warning to others who may be running testing.
   the specific error message is:
XPCOMGlueLoad error for file /usr/lib/firefox/libnssutil3.so: 
/usr/lib/firefox/libnssutil3.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file 
or directory
   songbird


Also affects sid. For those affected, the bug is:

#1026072: firefox: fails to start (cannot load libnssutil3.so)
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1026072

I have run "apt-mark hold firefox" and will continue to hold firefox (at 
107.0.1-1 on sid) until this bug is fixed.


Kind regards,

--
Ash Joubert (they/them) 
Director / Game Developer
Transient Software Limited 
New Zealand

Re: stopping mass surveillance

[Timothy M Butterworth]

The internet functions much like the post office. The Media Access Control
Address is the equivalent of the street address and the Internet Protocol
Address is the Zip Code. The addresses have to be in clear text for the
internet to function properly. Tor uses Encryption and Network Address
Translation NAT to conceal the real source IP address by replacing the
source IP with the IP of the Tor Router. NAT allows for anonymous internet
access and encryption provides for confidentiality. The problem with Tor is
that a compromised Router can be used to launch a man-in-the-middle attack.
Stealing online credentials.

Any commercial VPN service provider provides the same level of protection
as Tor.

Bulk data collection is immoral and unethical. Back in 2006 I found that
the USA was hosting photo shopped child porn. They used a JavaScript
vulnerability to create a backdoor on the visiting PC. Their hack only
worked if the user's account has admin privileges. Never surf the web on
windows using an account with admin privileges. The last time I checked on
the vulnerability was in 2010 and it was still not fixed even though it was
well known. I personally believe that the federal government was not
letting MS fix the vulnerability because they were using it as a back door
for data collection. 2006 is when I first moved to GNU/Linux with SUSE
Enterprise Linux Desktop SLED 10. By 2011 I no longer used Windows on my
personal systems so I stopped tracking the vulnerability. I can guess that
it is probably still not fixed.

The USA does not have a constitutional right to privacy from the
government. The only thing that comes close is the constitutional right
requiring a warrant for search and seizure of documents and property.

Iceland has a constitutional right to privacy. I don't know if there is a
VPN company running in Iceland but if there is that would be the one I
would get. https://ctemplar.com/icelandic-privacy-laws/ It would be nice if
the UN would push to follow Iceland's example.


-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org/
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀

Re: stopping mass surveillance

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 9:13 PM Timothy M Butterworth
 wrote:
> ...
> The USA does not have a constitutional right to privacy from the government. 
> The only thing that comes close is the constitutional right requiring a 
> warrant for search and seizure of documents and property.

The Right to Privacy is case law.

Griswold v. Connecticut (381 US 479 (1965)) - Supreme Court recognizes
a citizen's right to privacy. Privacy is found in the penumbra
(shadow) of 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 9th amendments.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqzhrFCQ-iU)

Jeff

Re: stopping mass surveillance

[paulf]

On Wed, 14 Dec 2022 23:11:36 -0500
Jeffrey Walton  wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 9:13 PM Timothy M Butterworth
>  wrote:
> > ...
> > The USA does not have a constitutional right to privacy from the
> > government. The only thing that comes close is the constitutional
> > right requiring a warrant for search and seizure of documents and
> > property.
> 
> The Right to Privacy is case law.
> 
> Griswold v. Connecticut (381 US 479 (1965)) - Supreme Court recognizes
> a citizen's right to privacy. Privacy is found in the penumbra
> (shadow) of 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 9th amendments.
> (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqzhrFCQ-iU)
> 
> Jeff
> 

It's also worth noting that the Constitution does not comprehensively
enumerate all a priori rights. It specifically states that those rights
not enumerated are left to the states and/or to the people. Case law
serves (in this case) to fill in the gaps left in the Constitution.

It's also worth noting that the right to privacy is limited. The State
has a vested interest in what goes on in your private life if you are
engaging in illegal activities privately.

And lastly, it's worth noting that this only obtains in the United
States. Elsewhere there are few places where citizens actually
are considered to have inalienable rights to things like free speech
and privacy. Instead, such rights are typically granted by governments,
despite what their citizens may think about their rights.

Paul

-- 
Paul M. Foster
Personal Blog: http://noferblatz.com
Company Site: http://quillandmouse.com
Software Projects: https://gitlab.com/paulmfoster

Re: testing update of firefox (to firefox_108.0-1) may not work

[Brad Rogers]

On Thu, 15 Dec 2022 10:30:44 +1300
Ash Joubert  wrote:

Hello Ash,

>Also affects sid. For those affected, the bug is:

songbird's subject is ambiguous;
Could mean "testing repo..."
Could mean "I am testing v108"

AFAICS the issue only affects sid, since Firefox only exists there never
anywhere else.  Only firefox-esr is migrated out of sid.  Now, that's not
to say the bad version couldn't be migrated to -esr, but that seems
unlikely.

ff-esr in testing isn't at 108, only 102.  Therefore, my guess is that
songbird meant the second of the two options for subject meaning.

Finally, the second option can be sub-divided into;
"...v108 from sid"
or
"...v108 from the Mozilla web site"

-- 
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Junk floats on polluted water
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Re: Debian failed

[hw]

On Sun, 2022-12-11 at 11:55 +0100, hede wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Dec 2022 04:51:10 +0100 hw  wrote:
> 
> > And it works like 97% perfectly fine ...
> 
> That's an oxymoron. 
> 
> > 
> > > Radeon RX 6000 series was released last year. I doubt it was possible to 
> > > use one of these with Red Hat Enterprise Linux ootb in the beginning of 
> > > this year before RHEL 9 was released. ;-)  
> > 
> > I don't know, I had NVIDIA cards before and there was never a problem
> > with Debian or Fedora or Gentoo being too old for that.
> 
> Actually with NVidia it's more typical to have a kernel too new or the card 
> to be too old. Or other sources for incompatibility, which emerge from time 
> to time.

The kernel being too new is rare, and when the card is too old, it's so
slow that you can as well use nouveau and it won't make a difference.


> If you have less problems with NVidia, maybe you should simply stick to 
> NVidia then. 

It turned out that the AMD card is not even an option anymore because
it's built so badly that not only the height but also the width exceeds
the slot size.  It's a few millimeters too wide and as a result, the
fans won't spin and the card overheats.

> > Last year was at
> > least a year ago and Debian still can't use the card?  Seriously? 
> 
> With Debian bookworm or sid your card should work. Both are no less Debian 
> than bullseye. 

I was never able to remember all these arbitrary names.  Stable should
work fine and it doesn't.

> Beyond that, like others already pointed out: Hardware which needs (to get 
> fully supported) a kernel version newer than 5.10 won't run perfectly fine 
> with Debian "bullseye" 11 by default. But that's also true for all NVidia 
> cards. For both of them you need additional sources: For newer AMD cards it's 
> "backports" and for NVidia it's "non-free". 

Debian needs to fix that.

> If you have less problems with Fedora, maybe you should simply use Fedora 
> instead. 
> 

For now I'm doing that though I don't want to.  Only I don't have a
better alternative yet.

> > It's
> > not even some kind of special card (except being way too large) but the
> > minimum card you can get away with when you have a 4k display (and has
> > only about half the performance or even less of the 1080ti FE I
> > surprisingly resurrected.)
> 
> I'd expect the RX 6600 XT to be a little below a GTX 1080 ti, with much less 
> power usage. But not half the performance. There's probably something wrong 
> with your configuration or you're using a workload which favours NVidia. Both 
> is possible.

"A little below" is what the benchmark results you can find would
suggest.  In practise, the 6600 is way behind the 1080.  Since there
isn't anything to configure, it could be the workload.

As to power, the 6600 is basically more power-friendly.  However, I'm
running the 1080 limited to 135W and it's fine.  When I increase the
limit, the fan of the PSU tends to spin up, which is annoying.  I can't
tell if it spins up because of the increased temperatures from the
graphics card or because of the increased power output it has to deliver
which might make the PSU itself warmer.

I'd like to see how the 6600 behaves, but since it's built badly, I
can't use it.

> > On top of that, the AMD drivers are open source and in the standard
> > kernel and are supposed to work.  It doesn't make any sense. 
> 
> Indeed it makes sense if the kernel you use is older than the minimum 
> required. Update your kernel and it should work. 

Like I said, it had all been updated.

> > Who is
> > cooperative with their drivers now, NVIDIA or AMD?
> 
> AMD (regarding Linux kernel or distribution inclusion)
> 

obviously not

> > Wayland still doesn't work with NVIDIA, but I can live without it for
> > now ...
> 
> It works fine with AMD and Intel.

not with Debian

Maybe if you go to lengths, and you shouldn't need to do that at all.  I
could see it for a graphics card that has been released no longer than
2--3 months ago, but not for one that's almost 2 years old.

Re: Debian failed

[hw]

On Sat, 2022-12-10 at 23:05 -0600, David Wright wrote:
> On Sun 11 Dec 2022 at 04:39:02 (+0100), hw wrote:
> > 
> > How can Debian be so old?
> 
> Maturity takes a little ageing.

Then Debian needs to figure out how to become sufficiently mature
without becoming outdated.

How is this working anyway?  Debian waits like 2 years or longer to
become mature while the rest of the world has already moved on to more
recent (versions of the same) software which has the bugs now fixed
Debian is still struggling with?  Or is Debian fixing the bugs in
outdated versions in order to continue to use those for some reason?

Re: Debian failed

[hw]

On Sat, 2022-12-10 at 22:44 -0500, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 10:39 PM hw  wrote:
> > On Sun, 2022-12-04 at 18:42 -0500, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
> > > ...
> > > Yeah, a newer kernel is probably worth a try. The 5.8 kernel may work.
> > > The 5.15 kernel will work based on my experience.
> > > 
> > > For completeness, here is the mini-pc I was having trouble with:
> > > https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B2RHXLDK . It is described as 'AMD Ryzen 5
> > > 5560U with AMD Radeon Graphics'.
> > > 
> > > [...]
> > > The thing that kept tripping me up was:
> > > 
> > > # lspci | grep -v 'bridge:'
> > > ...
> > > 04:00.0 VGA compatible controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.
> > > [AMD/ATI] Device 1638 (rev c3)
> > > 04:00.1 Audio device: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] Device 1637
> > > 
> > > Device 1638 was supposed to use amdgpu driver per [1,2]. But it didn't
> > > - it used an old ati driver. I did not realize the 5.4 kernel was too
> > > old. The 5.4 kernel lacked Cezanne support.
> > > 
> > > [1] https://drmdb.emersion.fr/devices?driver=amdgpu
> > > [2] https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/AMDGPU
> > 
> > IIRC, I got the amdgpu module to load and it still didn't detect the
> > graphics card right.
> > 
> > How can Debian be so old?  I thought I could use it for workstations and
> > servers, but when it can't even work right with a relatively old
> > graphics card, its usefulness becomes very questionable --- and it
> > leaves me without a good alternative.
> 
> Here's the version of amdgpu I am using on Ubuntu 22.04:
> 
> $ apt show amdgpu
> Package: amdgpu
> Version: 22.20.50200-1438747~22.04
> Priority: optional
> Section: metapackages
> Maintainer: Advanced Micro Devices (AMD) 
> Installed-Size: 9,216 B
> Depends: amdgpu-dkms, amdgpu-lib (= 22.20.50200-1438747~22.04)
> Download-Size: 1,684 B
> APT-Sources: https://repo.radeon.com/amdgpu/22.20/ubuntu jammy/main
> amd64 Packages
> Description: Meta package to install amdgpu components.
> ...
> 
> The version of amdgpu on Ubuntu 20.04 did not recognize the card. It
> gave me a lot of trouble until I upgraded to 22.04 with the 5.15
> kernel.
> 
> Maybe you can try Debian Sid?

What's sid?  Testing?  Last time I used testing, they broke it all
beyond being usable with no fix in sight which forced me to move away
from Debian after I had used it for 15 years.  I don't really want to
come back, and especially I don't want to run testing again.

Re: Debian failed

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 2:46 AM hw  wrote:
> On Sat, 2022-12-10 at 22:44 -0500, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
> [...]
> > Maybe you can try Debian Sid?
>
> What's sid?

https://www.debian.org/releases/sid/

Jeff