Re: GUIs are turning into seas of grey (gnumeric)

[Brad Rogers]

On Fri, 8 Feb 2019 21:38:30 -0600
David Wright  wrote:

Hello David,

>I can't understand why modern GUIs are composed of grey20 widgets
>on a grey21 background.

Fashion.  Pure and simple.

It's ludicrous, I agree;  We finally have near photo-realistic GFX
systems, and UI designers decide the best way to use them is to make
everything monochrome.

-- 
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Re: GUIs are turning into seas of grey (gnumeric)

[Paul Sutton]

On 09/02/2019 08:11, Brad Rogers wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Feb 2019 21:38:30 -0600
> David Wright  wrote:
>
> Hello David,
>
>> I can't understand why modern GUIs are composed of grey20 widgets
>> on a grey21 background.
> Fashion.  Pure and simple.
>
> It's ludicrous, I agree;  We finally have near photo-realistic GFX
> systems, and UI designers decide the best way to use them is to make
> everything monochrome.
>
I have made GUI applications in Tkinter and agree,  buttons are grey, 
and yet dialog boxes can have a number of icons in them, for warning, 
information,  in a mix of colours for example Yellow, red or green
depending on the context.

I am not sure if it is possible to add colour to the buttons,  I will
look in to it.  However there should be an agreed convention otherwise
an application with several buttons .   We should consider accessibility
on this.

Paul

-- 
Paul Sutton
http://www.zleap.net
https://www.linkedin.com/in/zleap/
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Re: GUIs are turning into seas of grey (gnumeric)

[Reco]

Hi.

On Fri, Feb 08, 2019 at 09:38:30PM -0600, David Wright wrote:
> I can't understand why modern GUIs are composed of grey20 widgets
> on a grey21 background. How am I meant to know what's going to happen
> when I press Return on each of these dialogue boxes, 1­3?

Enjoy your stock GTK+3 theme. Just joking, of course.


> We used to see things more like attachment 4 only a few years ago.
> How can I get back something like that?

>From the upstream POV - you should not. They like things looking that
way (i.e. non-contrast tablet style with HUEG fonts and widgets), they
discourage users from writing their own GTK+3 themes (which *can* change
the appearance of the dialog window in question).

If you're willing to risk funny-looking GTK+3 applications - I have a
solution for this particular case:

# apt install numix-gtk-theme

$ GTK_THEME=Numix gnumeric

Setting this theme systemwide is left as an exercise for the readers.

Reco

Re: GUIs are turning into seas of grey (gnumeric)

[tomas]

On Fri, Feb 08, 2019 at 09:38:30PM -0600, David Wright wrote:
> I can't understand why modern GUIs are composed of grey20 widgets
> on a grey21 background.

Ending is better than mending. Form replaces function.

(not having my constructive day today, sorry)

Cheers
-- t


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Re: GUIs are turning into seas of grey (gnumeric)

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 09 February 2019 03:18:43 Paul Sutton wrote:

> On 09/02/2019 08:11, Brad Rogers wrote:
> > On Fri, 8 Feb 2019 21:38:30 -0600
> > David Wright  wrote:
> >
> > Hello David,
> >
> >> I can't understand why modern GUIs are composed of grey20 widgets
> >> on a grey21 background.
> >
> > Fashion.  Pure and simple.
> >
> > It's ludicrous, I agree;  We finally have near photo-realistic GFX
> > systems, and UI designers decide the best way to use them is to make
> > everything monochrome.
>
> I have made GUI applications in Tkinter and agree,  buttons are grey, 
> and yet dialog boxes can have a number of icons in them, for warning, 
> information,  in a mix of colours for example Yellow, red or green
> depending on the context.
>
> I am not sure if it is possible to add colour to the buttons,  I will
> look in to it.  However there should be an agreed convention otherwise
> an application with several buttons .   We should consider
> accessibility on this.
>
> Paul

As another gui builder, in this case for LinuxCNC,  the ability to add a 
color to a button background could save a considerable amount of screen 
real estate simply because the button could then be its own tally. 
Having to compose an underlining led serving as the tally, takes a 
minimum of 6 lines of vertical real estate, and a text button demanding 
around 3x the height of the text is also a huge wasted space, 1 line 
above and 1 line below the height of the font would be a great plenty. 
I've looked at the srcs but don't know enough of that code language 
to "fix" it. But I'd sure be greatfull to anyone who could fix it.


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: GUIs are turning into seas of grey ([Solved] for gnumeric, & FF scrollbars)

[David Wright]

On Sat 09 Feb 2019 at 11:25:20 (+0300), Reco wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 08, 2019 at 09:38:30PM -0600, David Wright wrote:
> > I can't understand why modern GUIs are composed of grey20 widgets
> > on a grey21 background. How am I meant to know what's going to happen
> > when I press Return on each of these dialogue boxes, 1­3?
> 
> Enjoy your stock GTK+3 theme. Just joking, of course.
> 
> > We used to see things more like attachment 4 only a few years ago.
> > How can I get back something like that?
> 
> >From the upstream POV - you should not. They like things looking that
> way (i.e. non-contrast tablet style with HUEG fonts and widgets), they
> discourage users from writing their own GTK+3 themes (which *can* change
> the appearance of the dialog window in question).
> 
> If you're willing to risk funny-looking GTK+3 applications - I have a
> solution for this particular case:
> 
> # apt install numix-gtk-theme
> 
> $ GTK_THEME=Numix gnumeric
> 
> Setting this theme systemwide is left as an exercise for the readers.

Well, I tried that, and it was more colourful, but no improvement in
the button contrast. Same with some of the other themes that were
installed as dependencies.

However, you've taught me what to look for in the Packages/Descriptions
files, and I've now installed gnome-accessibility-themes. Not pretty,
but does just what I want in gnumeric. Thanks.

I put GTK_THEME=HighContrast into my .xsession which works fine.

It has also widened the scrollbars on firefox which had narrowed
dramatically, was it in late 2017. It's been so easy to miss the
scrollbar and raise/lower the window instead of scrolling.

As I run another instance of FF under a different username, I've also
put GTK_THEME=HighContrast into the script that runs it via ssh.
(I think ssh prevents the environment being inherited.)

As for systemwide, I'm guessing that putting it into one of:
/etc/X11/Xsession.d/{39,41}my-x11-common_xsessionrc
might do it, because that's where the system picks up your
home-grown .xsessionrc.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Stretch to buster

[Patrick Bartek]

On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 07:48:00 +
Paul Sutton  wrote:

> On 09/02/2019 02:22, Peter Ehlert wrote:
> >
> > On 2/8/19 11:09 AM, Patrick Bartek wrote:  
> >> On Fri, 8 Feb 2019 15:06:34 +
> >> Paul Sutton  wrote:
> >>  
> >>> Updated from Stretch to Buster (non-free) the other day all went fine,
> >>> just undertaken  
> >> Why?  Buster is still alpha.  A lot can still go wrong.  Hope it's not
> >> your primary use distro.  
> > Why?: 1. migrate now, or later this year when Buster is the new Stable.
> > 2. Newer features. Mate 1.20 is great, so is 1.16 but there have been
> > several "new shiny things" I like.
> >
> > alpha? maybe so: Been using Buster on one machine for 6 months or a
> > year, no issues... none that lasted more than the next update anyway.
> > The last couple months zip.
> >
> > I have other distros available on the machines. My data is always
> > accessible.  
> >>  
> >>> apt update && apt upgrade  
> >> With testing, dist-upgrade is the recommended upgrade procedure. That
> >> would be 'full-upgrade' with apt, if memory serves.  Read the
> >> manual for why.  
> >
> > my procedure was dead simple:
> >
> > using Pluma:
> > edit both /etc/apt/sources.list and /etc/apt/sources.list.d/base.list  
> > > replace stretch with buster  
> >
> > using Synaptic: refresh and update ... took about an hour.
> >
> > reboot and all was good
> >  
> >>> today and  all seem to go fine,  The process seems to be pretty
> >>> painless
> >>> for the most part.  
> >> Well I think that's because Debian's alphas are everybody else's betas
> >> or better.  
> > true that! packages have to be in pretty good shape to get to the
> > Buster repo
> > excellent vetting process
> >
> > I have a spare netbook, which was running stretch, not really being used
> > for much as I have my main desktop / netbook for general use / work.  
> > However why not upgrade and test.  I am sure given the comments to this
> > thread with regard to no problems etc is of great comfort to the
> > developers. 
> >
> > I can't do much,  as I am probably not technical enough.  I can run the
> > update commands,  and see what happens,  I have an idea on how to pipe
> > these messages to a file.  This can be shared and hopefully be useful.
> >
> > If I share issues here others may be able to say if they have the same
> > issue.  For the most part we can discuss the experiences here and
> > confirm issues.
> >
> > The about myself tool still comes up with 'unknown error' when trying to
> > apply changes.
> >
> > xfce menu -> debian - applications -> system - administration - about myself
> >
> > enter info - apply - password - unknown error
> >
> >
> > Paul  

Thanks to both Paul & Peter for their dist-upgrade reasons -- some
practical, others "bright shiny new toy."

As for me, I'm the patient, very practical type.  Debian is my distro
of choice after almost 20 years of using other Linuxes because of its
philosophy of stability and bug-freeness above all else. I'll wait
until Buster is in Release Candidate status before testing it in a VM.
Normally, I wouldn't bother since I usually only upgrade every other
release after LTS ceases on my primary install.  But this time, Buster
includes support for AMD's Ryzen APU series which a notebook I'm
considering purchasing around summertime uses.

Thanks, again.  You never can have too much info. ;-)

B

Re: Stretch to buster

[Boyan Penkov]

OP, are you on x86?  amd64?

Cheers!
--
Boyan Penkov
www.boyanpenkov.com

> On Feb 9, 2019, at 16:29, Patrick Bartek  wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 07:48:00 +
> Paul Sutton  wrote:
> 
>> On 09/02/2019 02:22, Peter Ehlert wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 2/8/19 11:09 AM, Patrick Bartek wrote:  
 On Fri, 8 Feb 2019 15:06:34 +
 Paul Sutton  wrote:
 
> Updated from Stretch to Buster (non-free) the other day all went fine,
> just undertaken  
 Why?  Buster is still alpha.  A lot can still go wrong.  Hope it's not
 your primary use distro.  
>>> Why?: 1. migrate now, or later this year when Buster is the new Stable.
>>> 2. Newer features. Mate 1.20 is great, so is 1.16 but there have been
>>> several "new shiny things" I like.
>>> 
>>> alpha? maybe so: Been using Buster on one machine for 6 months or a
>>> year, no issues... none that lasted more than the next update anyway.
>>> The last couple months zip.
>>> 
>>> I have other distros available on the machines. My data is always
>>> accessible.  
 
> apt update && apt upgrade  
 With testing, dist-upgrade is the recommended upgrade procedure. That
 would be 'full-upgrade' with apt, if memory serves.  Read the
 manual for why.  
>>> 
>>> my procedure was dead simple:
>>> 
>>> using Pluma:
>>> edit both /etc/apt/sources.list and /etc/apt/sources.list.d/base.list  
 replace stretch with buster  
>>> 
>>> using Synaptic: refresh and update ... took about an hour.
>>> 
>>> reboot and all was good
>>> 
> today and  all seem to go fine,  The process seems to be pretty
> painless
> for the most part.  
 Well I think that's because Debian's alphas are everybody else's betas
 or better.  
>>> true that! packages have to be in pretty good shape to get to the
>>> Buster repo
>>> excellent vetting process
>>> 
>>> I have a spare netbook, which was running stretch, not really being used
>>> for much as I have my main desktop / netbook for general use / work.  
>>> However why not upgrade and test.  I am sure given the comments to this
>>> thread with regard to no problems etc is of great comfort to the
>>> developers. 
>>> 
>>> I can't do much,  as I am probably not technical enough.  I can run the
>>> update commands,  and see what happens,  I have an idea on how to pipe
>>> these messages to a file.  This can be shared and hopefully be useful.
>>> 
>>> If I share issues here others may be able to say if they have the same
>>> issue.  For the most part we can discuss the experiences here and
>>> confirm issues.
>>> 
>>> The about myself tool still comes up with 'unknown error' when trying to
>>> apply changes.
>>> 
>>> xfce menu -> debian - applications -> system - administration - about myself
>>> 
>>> enter info - apply - password - unknown error
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Paul  
> 
> Thanks to both Paul & Peter for their dist-upgrade reasons -- some
> practical, others "bright shiny new toy."
> 
> As for me, I'm the patient, very practical type.  Debian is my distro
> of choice after almost 20 years of using other Linuxes because of its
> philosophy of stability and bug-freeness above all else. I'll wait
> until Buster is in Release Candidate status before testing it in a VM.
> Normally, I wouldn't bother since I usually only upgrade every other
> release after LTS ceases on my primary install.  But this time, Buster
> includes support for AMD's Ryzen APU series which a notebook I'm
> considering purchasing around summertime uses.
> 
> Thanks, again.  You never can have too much info. ;-)
> 
> B
> 

Re: GUIs are turning into seas of grey ([Solved] for gnumeric, & FF scrollbars)

[Michael Lange]

Hi,

On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 14:40:18 -0600
David Wright  wrote:

> 
> However, you've taught me what to look for in the Packages/Descriptions
> files, and I've now installed gnome-accessibility-themes. Not pretty,
> but does just what I want in gnumeric. Thanks.

you might want to also have a look at the TraditionalOk theme from the
mate-themes package. Imho this one more or less keeps what its name
promises.

Regards

Michael


.-.. .. ...- .   .-.. --- -. --.   .- -. -..   .--. .-. --- ... .--. . .-.

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Re: Stretch to buster

[deloptes]

Patrick Bartek wrote:

> As for me, I'm the patient, very practical type.  Debian is my distro
> of choice after almost 20 years of using other Linuxes because of its
> philosophy of stability and bug-freeness above all else. I'll wait
> until Buster is in Release Candidate status before testing it in a VM.

+1

> Normally, I wouldn't bother since I usually only upgrade every other
> release after LTS ceases on my primary install.  But this time, Buster
> includes support for AMD's Ryzen APU series which a notebook I'm
> considering purchasing around summertime uses.

By the summer could be that Buster is frozen?

Re: Stretch to buster

[Richard Hector]

On 10/02/19 12:01 PM, deloptes wrote:
>> Normally, I wouldn't bother since I usually only upgrade every other
>> release after LTS ceases on my primary install.  But this time, Buster
>> includes support for AMD's Ryzen APU series which a notebook I'm
>> considering purchasing around summertime uses.
> By the summer could be that Buster is frozen?
> 

Bah. Arrogance of northerners :-)

Summer is in full swing :-)

Richard




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Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi

[chris]

so relevant
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_AIw9bGogo

On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 10:07 AM Ansgar Burchardt  wrote:

> Andrew McGlashan  writes:
> > If it quacks like a duck, it's a  duck, plain and simple.
> >
> > I absolutely agree with the post that systemd is a "cancer"
>
> And I think Debian can do fine without people who only contribute toxic
> behaviour. And yes, calling other projects a cancer is just that.
>
> Ansgar
>
>
> --
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact
> listmas...@lists.debian.org
> Archive: https://lists.debian.org/871th397kc@deep-thought.43-1.org
>
>

Re: Stretch to buster

[Peter Ehlert]

The freeze for buster will happen according to the following timeline:

 * 2019-01-12 - Transition freeze
 * 2019-02-12 - Soft-freeze
 * 2019-03-12 - Full-freeze
   via https://release.debian.org/buster/freeze_policy.html

On 2/9/19 3:01 PM, deloptes wrote:

Patrick Bartek wrote:


As for me, I'm the patient, very practical type.  Debian is my distro
of choice after almost 20 years of using other Linuxes because of its
philosophy of stability and bug-freeness above all else. I'll wait
until Buster is in Release Candidate status before testing it in a VM.

+1


Normally, I wouldn't bother since I usually only upgrade every other
release after LTS ceases on my primary install.  But this time, Buster
includes support for AMD's Ryzen APU series which a notebook I'm
considering purchasing around summertime uses.

By the summer could be that Buster is frozen?

Re: GUIs are turning into seas of grey (gnumeric)

[David Wright]

On Sat 09 Feb 2019 at 23:16:42 (+0100), Michael Lange wrote:
> On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 14:40:18 -0600
> David Wright  wrote:
> > 
> > However, you've taught me what to look for in the Packages/Descriptions
> > files, and I've now installed gnome-accessibility-themes. Not pretty,
> > but does just what I want in gnumeric. Thanks.
> 
> you might want to also have a look at the TraditionalOk theme from the
> mate-themes package. Imho this one more or less keeps what its name
> promises.

OK, that took 9 dependencies to install, many the same as for Numix.
But I'm afraid it (and the Green variant) fail in a not quite similar
manner, which needs all four screenshots to illustrate. The first
three correspond, as usual, for the three buttons; the fourth (which
is the initial state for the dialogue) is the problem: the Save
button appears to be selected when actually it isn't. Because of its
blue colour, it's difficult to see that the document name is what's
highlighted in 4. In fact, the easiest way to see whether the document
name or Save is highlighted is to keep tapping Tab to go round and
round.

So I'll stick with Accessibility, thanks. As you may or may not guess,
I'm operating with the keyboard. I can move the cursor with the touchpad,
but not click. For that, I have to use a mouse.

For my browser, I have set up F12/^F12 for left/right click (in fvwm),
but it doesn't work in gnumeric.

Thanks again.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Stretch to buster

[Patrick Bartek]

On Sun, 10 Feb 2019 00:01:47 +0100
deloptes  wrote:

> Patrick Bartek wrote:
> 
> > As for me, I'm the patient, very practical type.  Debian is my distro
> > of choice after almost 20 years of using other Linuxes because of its
> > philosophy of stability and bug-freeness above all else. I'll wait
> > until Buster is in Release Candidate status before testing it in a VM.  
> 
> +1
> 
> > Normally, I wouldn't bother since I usually only upgrade every other
> > release after LTS ceases on my primary install.  But this time, Buster
> > includes support for AMD's Ryzen APU series which a notebook I'm
> > considering purchasing around summertime uses.  
> 
> By the summer could be that Buster is frozen?

If history is any guide, Buster as stable should be released around May.

B