Re: Debian on flash a store.

[Forest Dean Feighner]

I've found debian to be quit handy on flash store.


On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 10:35 PM, David Christensen <
dpchr...@holgerdanske.com> wrote:

> On 03/13/18 17:00, Richard Hector wrote:
>
>> Apologies for the diversion - does anyone know if there are USB flash
>> drives that _are_ built for full-time use, as a system disk?
>>
>> I've got some old thin clients that could do with storage upgrades that
>> are a bit easier to come by than the weird (PATA?) flash modules they
>> come with. Obviously I could just hook up an external USB ssd, but I'd
>> like to keep the small form factor if I can - then they can go inside
>> the case.
>>
>
> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=disk+on+module&t=ffsb&ia=web
>
>
> http://www.memorydepot.com/ssd_diskonmodule.html
>
>
> David
>
>

Re: Debian on flash a store.

[Richard Hector]

On 14/03/18 15:35, David Christensen wrote:
> On 03/13/18 17:00, Richard Hector wrote:
>> Apologies for the diversion - does anyone know if there are USB flash
>> drives that _are_ built for full-time use, as a system disk?
>>
>> I've got some old thin clients that could do with storage upgrades that
>> are a bit easier to come by than the weird (PATA?) flash modules they
>> come with. Obviously I could just hook up an external USB ssd, but I'd
>> like to keep the small form factor if I can - then they can go inside
>> the case.
> 
> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=disk+on+module&t=ffsb&ia=web
> 
> 
> http://www.memorydepot.com/ssd_diskonmodule.html

Interesting, thanks - it appears that I could replace the existing
module after all - and possibly add a SATA one, depending on which way
round they are. I'm not entirely sure about the power situation though -
there seem to be multiple ways of getting power through the data port;
are they all backwards compatible? Does my system need to support it
explicitly, or will any old sata port work?

I see there are USB DOMs as well, but most/many of them want an internal
header rather than a type A socket, which is all I have. And some of
them say they're USB 3, backward compatible with USB 2 ... I'm not sure
which of my ports are what standard; some of them may even be 1 ...

Almost none of these seem to be available locally in New Zealand though,
so I'd have to import something, which is a bit more of a hassle.

Cheers,
Richard




signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Simple spreadsheet program.

[Erik Christiansen]

On 13.03.18 10:48, David Wright wrote:
> On Tue 13 Mar 2018 at 21:31:00 (+1100), Erik Christiansen wrote:
> > Too true. After a couple of hours of failing to get any GUI drawing
> > package, not least LibreOffice, to do anything useful, I used Vim to
> > textually produce the 8 drawings for my house; plan, elevations &
> > sections, and site plan. It took about 800 lines of Postscript, and I
> > didn't have to crack the inscrutable secrets of an obstructive GUI
> > interface.
> 
> OTOH the results of your work were highly scrutable?

Adjectives describe nouns, in the quoted text that is "interface secrets".
The quoted text did not refer to output/results.
The quote of my function to draw a door in a floorplan shows my text
input, not output/results.
The result of conversion of the postscript to pdf is a suite of drawings
when displayed with e.g. xpdf. (Scrutable even to local government
officials, at considerable cost saving compared to using an architect.)

But there is perhaps an unstated point - that the postscript language
(the interface) is not equally scrutable for all. I found it infinitely
easier to learn a fully discoverable textual language than how to crank
a mouse engine in mysterious ways. Eric Raymond perhaps said it best.
(See sig)

Cheers,
Erik

-- 
The meta-problem here is that the configuration wizard does all the approved   
rituals (GUI with standardized clicky buttons, help popping up in a browser,
etc. etc.) but doesn't have the central attribute these are supposed to achieve:
discoverability. That is, the quality that every point in the interface has
prompts and actions attached to it from which you can learn what to do next.
   - Eric Raymond, in "The Luxury of Ignorance."

Re: which blend caters to TaL computer programming? . . .

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 10:15:22PM +, Liam O'Toole wrote:
> On 2018-03-13,   wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> >  1) All generalizations suck.
> >  2) Language wars are generally a loss of time.
> 
> That makes two generalisations which, presumably, suck.

Someone noticed ;-)

All recursions recurse.

Cheers
- -- t
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAlqo0+AACgkQBcgs9XrR2kb5ZACePREDD+RaD0nXXWJoUlwh3PZI
F8kAn2Thdv4fcKLr1th2YlD7G4lS6Q98
=wLEy
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Re: Debian v.9.2.1 DVDs - how long are they good for?

[Joe]

On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 23:20:30 +
Brian  wrote:

> On Tue 13 Mar 2018 at 22:11:58 +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote:
> 
> > I downloaded some Debian v.9.2.1 DVDs and I would like  
> 
> Not today you didn't. It's 9.4.0 now.
> 
> > to know how long they are useful. In other words, how long
> > may I retain them as install DVDs and upgrade once it has
> > been installed and put on-line?  
> 
> For ever and ever.
> 

To expand a bit (you can tell that Brian's not paid by the word), the
numbered versions of Debian form a single chain from the earliest days.

You could literally install any numbered version and upgrade in steps
to the current one, though that would be a lot of wasted work. Any
version 9.x would upgrade in one step to current, and in the fullness
of time (probably at least a year) can be upgraded to the next major
version.

The older the 9.x version to be upgraded, the more new software has to
be downloaded, but that's still vastly less than downloading a new
installation disc, the majority of the software won't change during
the life of the 9.x release.

-- 
Joe

Re: which blend caters to TaL computer programming? . . .

[rhkramer]

On Tuesday, March 13, 2018 10:04:14 AM Albretch Mueller wrote:
>  I have a group of kids that are very good in Math and they want to
> learn some actual programming

What is the age group of these kids?  I don't think I've seen it mentioned 
anywhere in the thread, and, to me at least, it seems like it makes a 
difference.

Well, maybe I shouldn't have said age--what is more relevant is their 
education so far--they are very good in math (Math?)--does that mean counting 
(to be facetious), addition and subtraction, geometry, trigonometry, calculus, 
differential equations, ...?

Re: which blend caters to TaL computer programming? . . .

[Roberto C . Sánchez]

On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 09:53:02PM -0700, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> 
> Perhaps, but I would get very excited if I found someone was interested by
> that few lines of text.  Such people are the ones who we really need,
> because they're the ones who are going to be writing the building blocks of
> tomorrow's software rather than just adding a bit of fluff on top of
> something they really don't understand.
> 
I am sure that 30 years ago the same could have been said for those who
were learning C and C++ without first learning assembler and machine
language. I mean, at that point applications were just a bit of fluff on
the machines, which were interesting in their own right.

Regards,

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sánchez

Re: Debian v.9.2.1 DVDs - how long are they good for?

[Greg Wooledge]

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 09:15:58AM +, Joe wrote:
> You could literally install any numbered version and upgrade in steps
> to the current one, though that would be a lot of wasted work. Any
> version 9.x would upgrade in one step to current, and in the fullness
> of time (probably at least a year) can be upgraded to the next major
> version.

That's a wee bit overly optimistic.  In practice, you will find it
rather challenging to upgrade from a version of Debian that has been
archived (no longer on the regular mirrors, no longer receiving Long
Term Support).  Right now, the oldest release of Debian that is still
receiving LTS is wheezy (7.x).

A more reasonable projection for the lifespan of Debian installation
media is about 5 years (the length of LTS coverage).

With that said, having full DVDs is pretty much a waste.  Once you
install Debian and get the machine onto the Internet so that you can
upgrade it, you'll find that most of the packages you installed from
the DVDs have been superseded by newer versions, so you'll end up
downloading them all over again anyway.

That's why most of us just use the minimal "netinst" installation images.
Get the basic system installed from physical media, and then download
the packages you want during (or shortly after) the installation,
rather than installing old/buggy versions of the packages from physical
media and then replacing them with newer versions immediately.

Re: GPG key expiry questions?

[Daniel Bareiro]

Hi, Ansgar.

On 14/03/18 03:26, Ansgar Burchardt wrote:

>>> You can change the expiry date of your own key, but for other people to
>>> be able to see it and avoid having your key show up as expired, you must
>>> publish the new (key? signature? not sure...) and others must fetch it
>>> before the expiry date hits.
>>>
>>> I think what happened is that you edited the expiration date of your key
>>> and published it, but the other person didn't get the updated version
>>> before their copy of your key expired.

>> Ah, that sounds plausible. I think I actually edited it after it had
>> expired, so very likely, if that causes a problem. I have a newer one as
>> well (4096 instead of 2048 bit) - though apparently with no signatures
>> on it yet. Not sure if that will suffer the same problem? I can't
>> remember if that one also expired and was posthumously edited ... If it
>> hasn't actually been used much, will that mean nobody's got it 'cached'?

> Editing the key is no problem, the other side just has to update their
> copy from time to time.  But this is necessary anyway: if they do not
> look for updates to the key, they will never know about key revocations
> either and continue to trust a revoked key.
> 
> Just run `gpg --refresh-keys` from time to time.

Thanks for the suggestion. I have updated my keyring:
(spanish output)

--
viper@orion:~$ gpg --refresh-keys
gpg: refreshing 195 keys from hkp://keys.gnupg.net
(...)
gpg: clave B4A2F08FEC70168D: "Richard Hector " 9
firmas nuevas
(...)
gpg: Cantidad total procesada: 193
gpg:  sin cambios: 106
gpg:  nuevos identificativos: 29
gpg:nuevas subclaves: 14
gpg:   nuevas firmas: 3201
gpg: public key C11141521FA7D0B8 is 74797 seconds newer than the signature
gpg: marginals needed: 3  completes needed: 1  trust model: pgp
gpg: public key C11141521FA7D0B8 is 74797 seconds newer than the signature
gpg: nivel: 0  validez:   2  firmada:   0  confianza: 0-, 0q, 0n, 0m, 0f, 2u
--

GNUPG seems to have found 9 new signatures ('firmas' in spanish)  from
Richard.

The output in English would be something like this:

Total amount processed: 193
without changes: 196
new identifiers: 14
new subkeys: 14
new signatures: 3201

These 'signatures' are new public keys?

Still Thunderbird is showing the expired key. Should I restart it to
take the changes?

Kind regards,
Daniel



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: which blend caters to TaL computer programming? . . .

[Albretch Mueller]

On 3/13/18, rhkra...@gmail.com  wrote:
> There are now a variety of open source attempts at similar functionality,
> this
> page provides some thoughts:
>
> https://www.quora.com/Is-there-an-open-source-free-alternative-to-Mathematica

 Thank you! Very good reference! I like the idea of a free/OS Python
version of Mathematica. Each time that I looked into comp.programming
I realized I have forgotten when was "the last time I was kissed" and
even the feeling of it ;-)

 Knowing well the basics of stuff helps but things keep "evolving" or
being generationally reframed at times with interesting tid bits

On 3/14/18, rhkra...@gmail.com  wrote:
> What is the age group of these kids?

 They are 5th and 6th graders

> Well, maybe I shouldn't have said age--what is more relevant is their
> education so far--they are very good in math (Math?)--does that mean
> counting
> (to be facetious), addition and subtraction, geometry, trigonometry,
> calculus,
> differential equations, ...?

 No calculus of any kind yet, but as I taught them about numerical
sequences they were mesmerized by the fact that the second order
differences of randomly looking numbers being generated by a second
order "formula" was constant. I told them that happened because the
second derivative of a second order polynomial was constant, that this
indeed meant to be a second order polynomial. They took me to task by
asking me what a "derivative" was ...

On 3/14/18, Roberto C. Sánchez  wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 09:53:02PM -0700, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>> Perhaps, but I would get very excited if I found someone was interested
>> by
>> that few lines of text.  Such people are the ones who we really need,
>> because they're the ones who are going to be writing the building blocks
>> of
>> tomorrow's software rather than just adding a bit of fluff on top of
>> something they really don't understand.
>>
> I am sure that 30 years ago the same could have been said for those who
> were learning C and C++ without first learning assembler and machine
> language. I mean, at that point applications were just a bit of fluff on
> the machines, which were interesting in their own right.

 Yes, but assembler, machine language, and if anything, operating
systems and compilers then didn't mean the same as they do today.
Also, there is some sort of Hegelian/Darwinian reason why things tend
to develop in certain ways.

 lbrtchx

Re: Debian v.9.2.1 DVDs - how long are they good for?

[Richard Owlett]

On 03/14/2018 04:15 AM, Joe wrote:

On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 23:20:30 +
Brian  wrote:


On Tue 13 Mar 2018 at 22:11:58 +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote:


I downloaded some Debian v.9.2.1 DVDs and I would like


Not today you didn't. It's 9.4.0 now.


Brian, did you bother to read what the OP *ACTUALLY* wrote.
He made *NO* mention of *WHEN* he had downloaded them.
In fact he strongly implied his goal was to have complete DVD sets and 
to download complete sets as infrequently as possible.


I also install from complete DVD sets. In fact my current set is v.9.1.0 
- though purchased rather than downloaded due to limited bandwidth and time.





to know how long they are useful. In other words, how long
may I retain them as install DVDs and upgrade once it has
been installed and put on-line?


For ever and ever.



To expand a bit (you can tell that Brian's not paid by the word), the
numbered versions of Debian form a single chain from the earliest days.

You could literally install any numbered version and upgrade in steps
to the current one, though that would be a lot of wasted work. Any
version 9.x would upgrade in one step to current, and in the fullness
of time (probably at least a year) can be upgraded to the next major
version.

The older the 9.x version to be upgraded, the more new software has to
be downloaded, but that's still vastly less than downloading a new
installation disc, the majority of the software won't change during
the life of the 9.x release.



Thank you for a useful answer.

Re: Debian v.9.2.1 DVDs - how long are they good for?

[Hans]

Hi there, 

IMO the Installation DVDs are rather usefull, because when they are read/
writable, then he can easyly update them by using the famous "jigdo-lite".

I am doing so since years. This saves costs for new DVD's and saves a lot of 
bandwith.

Just a little hint. :)

Best regards

Hans

Re: Debian v.9.2.1 DVDs - how long are they good for?

[Joe]

On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 08:12:51 -0400
Greg Wooledge  wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 09:15:58AM +, Joe wrote:
> > You could literally install any numbered version and upgrade in
> > steps to the current one, though that would be a lot of wasted
> > work. Any version 9.x would upgrade in one step to current, and in
> > the fullness of time (probably at least a year) can be upgraded to
> > the next major version.  
> 
> That's a wee bit overly optimistic.  In practice, you will find it
> rather challenging to upgrade from a version of Debian that has been
> archived (no longer on the regular mirrors, no longer receiving Long
> Term Support).  Right now, the oldest release of Debian that is still
> receiving LTS is wheezy (7.x).
> 

I was certainly not suggesting that anyone try it, just that it is
possible, therefore upgrading between any minor versions of a major
version is trivial.

-- 
Joe

Re: GPG key expiry questions?

[likcoras]

On 03/14/2018 09:14 PM, Daniel Bareiro wrote:
> On 14/03/18 03:26, Ansgar Burchardt wrote:
>> Just run `gpg --refresh-keys` from time to time.
> 
> Thanks for the suggestion. I have updated my keyring:
> 
> GNUPG seems to have found 9 new signatures ('firmas' in spanish)  from
> Richard.
> 
> The output in English would be something like this:
> 
> Total amount processed: 193
> without changes: 196
> new identifiers: 14
> new subkeys: 14
> new signatures: 3201
> 
> These 'signatures' are new public keys?
> 
> Still Thunderbird is showing the expired key. Should I restart it to
> take the changes?
> 

The "identifiers" (UIDs) are the new identities (name-email pairs) added
to keys by the key owners.

Subkeys are just subkeys, added by the key owners. These are more like
the new public keys, not the signature count below.

Signatures are published signatures on the key in question, not just the
self-signatures but by other keys as well. In this case, most probably 9
other people signed the key, and the signatures were published to the
keyserver. Not selfsigs, those are less common.

Enigmail just runs gpg(2) under the hood, so if gpg reports the correct
results, a restart should be enough, unless it has a separate cache for
some reason.

Re: which blend caters to TaL computer programming? . . .

[Richard Owlett]

On 03/13/2018 07:59 PM, Albretch Mueller wrote:

[snip]


No! A functional language! Object oriented languages are wrong!
Linear types FTW! Multi-paradigm! Strongly typed! Dynamically
typed -- no, statically typed!


  In fact, it will just be an introduction, but I want to teach them to
be "multilingual"/"multi-paradigm" from the start.


I heartily approve. Although I wrote some project management apps in 
dBASEII under MSDOS, I'm lost attempting to understand SQL and cousins.





You need to teach them things like breaking down problems into
manageable parts and assembling parts into complex wholes.


  For which pointers are very useful? ;-)


For an introduction I would prefer a good BASIC. My introduction to 
computers as an engineering student in early 60's used CORC/CUPL (a 
predecessor at Cornell to Dartmouth's BASIC). I have never styled myself 
a "programmer", but when I need some code, I think out my logic in 
BASIC. YMMV ;!





To be fair, *you* are talking about "how to teach children to write
programs." The OP specifically asked about how to obtain a Debian blend
with a specific set of features/capabilities.


  Thank you and that blend doesn't seem to exist, right?

  I was just thinking of handing them a live DVD so their parents don't
protest about "installing software in their computers"


To sum up, the best approach IMO is to
- base everything on a game (something with rules and goals)
- explain computer architecture (as part of the game) what is doing what and
what is a purpose of a program, how a computer and a program work ...


  Thank you and yes, one of the projects will be coding a game and
another project will be about NLP (all my students are multilingual).
I will also introduce computer architecture, the Turing test (a little
bit of philosophy and why technical people have taken it as some sort
of modern day "how many angels can dance on the pin of a needle" kind
of thing, when IMO Turing himself never meant that computer
(ultimately syntactic devices) could compare to or simulate brain/mind
functions), ... but the most important aspect of it, would be that I
will mainly use a Mathematical approach to teaching computer
programming.

  I have had such ideas for a long time. It is that my students
actually started to ask for it. Of course, they have no idea about how
much time and mental effort professional programming takes, but again
it is just an introduction.


Hey, if he's paying, we answer the question he asked. If he's not, we
answer the question we want to answer. This is how the Internet works.


  There goes the emperor of the Internet telling how "we" think it works ...


Unfortunately this group has multiple emperors.

Re: Debian v.9.2.1 DVDs - how long are they good for?

[Brian]

On Wed 14 Mar 2018 at 13:03:14 +, Joe wrote:

> On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 08:12:51 -0400
> Greg Wooledge  wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 09:15:58AM +, Joe wrote:
> > > You could literally install any numbered version and upgrade in
> > > steps to the current one, though that would be a lot of wasted
> > > work. Any version 9.x would upgrade in one step to current, and in
> > > the fullness of time (probably at least a year) can be upgraded to
> > > the next major version.  
> > 
> > That's a wee bit overly optimistic.  In practice, you will find it
> > rather challenging to upgrade from a version of Debian that has been
> > archived (no longer on the regular mirrors, no longer receiving Long
> > Term Support).  Right now, the oldest release of Debian that is still
> > receiving LTS is wheezy (7.x).
> > 
> 
> I was certainly not suggesting that anyone try it, just that it is
> possible, therefore upgrading between any minor versions of a major
> version is trivial.

No harm in trying and it's not all that hard to use snapshot.debian.org
as an archive to upgtade from squeeze to wheezy.

-- 
Brian.

Re: which blend caters to TaL computer programming? . . .

[Joe]

On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 20:29:38 +
Joe  wrote:

> On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 10:04:14 -0400
> Albretch Mueller  wrote:
> 
> >  I have a group of kids that are very good in Math and they want to
> > learn some actual programming
> > 
> >  My approach is to introduce them to the basics of coding using ANSI
> > C, C++ and java (so they learn what pointers are about, how patterns
> > are coded in different languages, ...)
> > 
> >  Is there a blend with those ANSI C, C++ and java as well as eclipse
> > installed, so that they can use it from a DVD Debian live version?  
> 
> I'm not aware of one, but then again I don't work in those areas. If I
> had to do it, I'd make my own live DVD with those explicitly
> installed.
> 

Actually, for some years I've kept in my jacket pocket the smallest
external hard drive I've ever seen, which sadly was the end of its
line. I haven't been able to find a replacement.

It contains a 32-bit installation of Debian unstable with generic
kernel modules, and will boot on almost any 86-derived computer. It's
just an ordinary installation, so I can add and remove things at will.
That might be the way for you to go.

-- 
Joe

Finding image file underlying an icon on Mate desktop

[Richard Owlett]

Several months ago I needed a fully custom desktop icon for a shortcut.
I had no trouble creating an appropriate png file and having it display.
Now I need a similar icon. I went to the properties of the shortcut 
expecting to be able to discover the location of the image used.


I could not. Clicking on the icon's image allows replacing it but no 
apparent way to discover its location.


Is there a way?
[for current application creating a new icon will be simple]
[finding the old icon would be convenient]

TIA

Re: PAE or not PAE?

[Henrique de Moraes Holschuh]

On Mon, 12 Mar 2018, Neo wrote:
> No PAE.
> 
> For 2GB of RAM it makes no sense. You just need this on 32bit machines with
> more than 4GB of RAM.

You need PAE to get the NX (non-execute) protection, and also KPTI (aka
Meltdown defense).  Note that KPTI for i686 is a work in progress.

So, it might make sense to run PAE kernels even on 2GiB RAM, it depends
on whether you consider NX important or not (and KPTI in the future).

-- 
  Henrique Holschuh

Intel-Microcode 20180312 - Meltdown/Spectre

[mlnl]

Hi,

under Debian Stretch i have updated the Microcode from Intel

according to the readme

instructions.

~# dmesg | grep micro
[0.00] microcode: microcode updated early to revision 0x24, date
= 2018-01-21
[0.640195] microcode: sig=0x306c3, pf=0x2, revision=0x24
[0.640313] microcode: Microcode Update Driver: v2.2.

With a vanilla kernel compiled with Meltdown/Spectre
mitigations, i get with spectre-meltdown-checker v0.35:

Kernel is Linux 4.15.8-vanilla1 #1 SMP Sat Mar 10 18:53:16 CET 2018 x86_64
CPU is Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-4570 CPU @ 3.20GHz

Hardware check
* Hardware support (CPU microcode) for mitigation techniques
  * Indirect Branch Restricted Speculation (IBRS)
* SPEC_CTRL MSR is available: YES
* CPU indicates IBRS capability: YES (SPEC_CTRL feature bit)
  * Indirect Branch Prediction Barrier (IBPB)
* PRED_CMD MSR is available: YES
* CPU indicates IBPB capability: YES (SPEC_CTRL feature bit)
  * Single Thread Indirect Branch Predictors (STIBP)
* SPEC_CTRL MSR is available: YES
* CPU indicates STIBP capability: YES
  * Enhanced IBRS (IBRS_ALL)
* CPU indicates ARCH_CAPABILITIES MSR availability: NO
* ARCH_CAPABILITIES MSR advertises IBRS_ALL capability: NO
  * CPU explicitly indicates not being vulnerable to Meltdown (RDCL_NO): NO
  * CPU microcode is known to cause stability problems: NO (model 60
stepping 3 ucode 0x24)
* CPU vulnerability to the three speculative execution attacks variants
  * Vulnerable to Variant 1: YES
  * Vulnerable to Variant 2: YES
  * Vulnerable to Variant 3: YES

CVE-2017-5753 [bounds check bypass] aka 'Spectre Variant 1'
* Mitigated according to the /sys interface: YES (kernel confirms that
the mitigation is active)
* Kernel has array_index_mask_nospec: YES (1 occurence(s) found of 64
bits array_index_mask_nospec())
* Kernel has the Red Hat/Ubuntu patch: NO
> STATUS: NOT VULNERABLE (Mitigation: __user pointer sanitization)

CVE-2017-5715 [branch target injection] aka 'Spectre Variant 2'
* Mitigated according to the /sys interface: YES (kernel confirms that
the mitigation is active)
* Mitigation 1
  * Kernel is compiled with IBRS/IBPB support: NO
  * Currently enabled features
* IBRS enabled for Kernel space: NO
* IBRS enabled for User space: NO
* IBPB enabled: NO
* Mitigation 2
  * Kernel compiled with retpoline option: YES
  * Kernel compiled with a retpoline-aware compiler: YES (kernel reports
full retpoline compilation)
> STATUS: NOT VULNERABLE (Mitigation: Full generic retpoline, IBPB)

CVE-2017-5754 [rogue data cache load] aka 'Meltdown' aka 'Variant 3'
* Mitigated according to the /sys interface: YES (kernel confirms that
the mitigation is active)
* Kernel supports Page Table Isolation (PTI): YES
* PTI enabled and active: YES
* Running as a Xen PV DomU: NO
> STATUS: NOT VULNERABLE (Mitigation: PTI)

~# cat /poc/cpuinfo | grep flags
flags: ... ibpb ibrs stibp ...

No problems or performance losses so far.

-- 
mlnl

Re: Intel-Microcode 20180312 - Meltdown/Spectre

[Henrique de Moraes Holschuh]

On Wed, 14 Mar 2018, mlnl wrote:
> under Debian Stretch i have updated the Microcode from Intel
> 
> according to the readme
> 
> instructions.

For the record, this microcode release was added to Debian unstable
today, and should be in your preferred mirror soon if it is not there
yet.

> [0.00] microcode: microcode updated early to revision 0x24, date
> = 2018-01-21
> [0.640195] microcode: sig=0x306c3, pf=0x2, revision=0x24

Looks good.

> With a vanilla kernel compiled with Meltdown/Spectre
> mitigations, i get with spectre-meltdown-checker v0.35:

...

(note that some _Debian_ kernels might not enable IBRS/IBPB on Skylake
yet due to an outdated blacklist.  It will be fixed soon enough).

> No problems or performance losses so far.

Thanks for the report!

-- 
  Henrique Holschuh

Re: which blend caters to TaL computer programming? . . .

[rhkramer]

On Wednesday, March 14, 2018 11:01:19 AM Joe wrote:
> Actually, for some years I've kept in my jacket pocket the smallest
> external hard drive I've ever seen, which sadly was the end of its
> line. I haven't been able to find a replacement.
> 
> It contains a 32-bit installation of Debian unstable with generic
> kernel modules, and will boot on almost any 86-derived computer. It's
> just an ordinary installation, so I can add and remove things at will.
> That might be the way for you to go.

If I wanted to do something like that, I'd use a USB flash drive or an SD(X?) 
card--capacities up to at least 256 GB last time I looked.

Re: Debian v.9.2.1 DVDs - how long are they good for?

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 02:58:45PM +, Brian wrote:
> On Wed 14 Mar 2018 at 13:03:14 +, Joe wrote:
> > Greg Wooledge  wrote:
> > > That's a wee bit overly optimistic.  In practice, you will find it
> > > rather challenging to upgrade from a version of Debian that has been
> > > archived (no longer on the regular mirrors, no longer receiving Long
> > > Term Support).  Right now, the oldest release of Debian that is still
> > > receiving LTS is wheezy (7.x).
> > 
> > I was certainly not suggesting that anyone try it, just that it is
> > possible, therefore upgrading between any minor versions of a major
> > version is trivial.
> 
> No harm in trying and it's not all that hard to use snapshot.debian.org
> as an archive to upgtade from squeeze to wheezy.

Indeed; since snapshot.debian.org goes all the way back to woody in
2005, I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to put that in your
/etc/apt/sources.list and take a potato system up through woody,
sarge, etch, lenny, squeeze, to wheezy then switch to the normal
mirrors to go to jessie and beyond. Although it'd probably take a
lot longer than just reinstalling. :)

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: which blend caters to TaL computer programming? . . .

[Curt]

On 2018-03-14, rhkra...@gmail.com  wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 14, 2018 11:01:19 AM Joe wrote:
>> Actually, for some years I've kept in my jacket pocket the smallest
>> external hard drive I've ever seen, which sadly was the end of its
>> line. I haven't been able to find a replacement.
>> 
>> It contains a 32-bit installation of Debian unstable with generic
>> kernel modules, and will boot on almost any 86-derived computer. It's
>> just an ordinary installation, so I can add and remove things at will.
>> That might be the way for you to go.
>
> If I wanted to do something like that, I'd use a USB flash drive or an SD(X?) 
> card--capacities up to at least 256 GB last time I looked.
>

Yeah that way you could work in the summertime too (in the temperate
latitudes).


-- 
Bah, the latest news, the latest news is not the last.
Samuel Beckett

Re: Debian v.9.2.1 DVDs - how long are they good for?

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Hans wrote:
> IMO the Installation DVDs are rather usefull, because when they are read/
> writable, then he can easyly update them by using the famous "jigdo-lite".

Urm, jigdo-lite can use the old ISOs as source for most packages of the
new ISOs which it produces from new .jigdo and .template files.

The ISOs themselves are not read-write filesystems in the usual way,
although you may append a new session with a new directory tree and
the differing data file contents. This grows the ISO but elsewise yields
the desired effect of a writable filesystem.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: Debian v.9.2.1 DVDs - how long are they good for?

[Brian]

On Wed 14 Mar 2018 at 16:19:23 +, Andy Smith wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 02:58:45PM +, Brian wrote:
> > On Wed 14 Mar 2018 at 13:03:14 +, Joe wrote:
> > > Greg Wooledge  wrote:
> > > > That's a wee bit overly optimistic.  In practice, you will find it
> > > > rather challenging to upgrade from a version of Debian that has been
> > > > archived (no longer on the regular mirrors, no longer receiving Long
> > > > Term Support).  Right now, the oldest release of Debian that is still
> > > > receiving LTS is wheezy (7.x).
> > > 
> > > I was certainly not suggesting that anyone try it, just that it is
> > > possible, therefore upgrading between any minor versions of a major
> > > version is trivial.
> > 
> > No harm in trying and it's not all that hard to use snapshot.debian.org
> > as an archive to upgtade from squeeze to wheezy.
> 
> Indeed; since snapshot.debian.org goes all the way back to woody in
> 2005, I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to put that in your
> /etc/apt/sources.list and take a potato system up through woody,
> sarge, etch, lenny, squeeze, to wheezy then switch to the normal
> mirrors to go to jessie and beyond. Although it'd probably take a
> lot longer than just reinstalling. :)

Technically possible though and, projecting into the future when jessie
et al are archived, for ever and ever. :)

-- 
Brian.

Re: Debian v.9.2.1 DVDs - how long are they good for?

[Hans]

Am Mittwoch, 14. März 2018, 18:35:01 CET schrieb Thomas Schmitt:
Hi Thomas,
I do not agree with you. As far as I know (as my last creation was a long time 
ago), you can mount the dvd in jigdo, and then you will only need to download 
newer packages not existing on the dvd. All package versions, which are on the 
dvd will be downloaded from the dvd and not from the repo. 

Please correct me if I am wrong. 

So you save bandwith. 

Happy hacking!

Hans
> Hi,
> 
, jigdo-lite can use the old ISOs as source for most packages of the
> new ISOs which it produces from new .jigdo and .template files.
> 
> The ISOs themselves are not read-write filesystems in the usual way,
> although you may append a new session with a new directory tree and
> the differing data file contents. This grows the ISO but elsewise yields
> the desired effect of a writable filesystem.
> 
> 
> Have a nice day :)
> 
> Thomas

Re: Debian v.9.2.1 DVDs - how long are they good for?

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Hans wrote:
> As far as I know (as my last creation was a long time 
> ago), you can mount the dvd in jigdo, and then you will only need to download 
> newer packages not existing on the dvd.

Yes. That's how it works. The result is a new ISO freshly produced by
jigdo-lite and its main worker jigdo-file.
The old ISO is supposed to still exist afterwards.

We only disagree about this statement of yours:

> > > when they are read/
> > > writable, then he can easyly update them by using the famous "jigdo-lite".

The old ISOs must be readable (i.e. mountable) and the directory where
jigdo-lite creates the new ISO must be writable.


We agree that a local set of DVD ISOs can heavily speed up the creation of
slightly youngers ISOs. (With very much younger ISOs you may have not
much success with looking for their packages in the old ISOs.)


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: Simple spreadsheet program.

[David Wright]

On Tue 13 Mar 2018 at 22:00:00 (-0700), Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 13/03/18 02:49 PM, Ben Caradoc-Davies wrote:
> 
> >I also long avoided the complexity of LibreOffice Calc, but a modest
> >investment of time has left me satisfied with the results. Things I like:
> >
> >- Flexible CSV import/export. I like to manipulate CSV files with grep,
> >perl, and geany, and then import into Calc. Nothing is quicker than
> >Ctrl-D in a text editor for deleting unwanted rows. I also use a regex
> >to convert all dates to (for example) ISO 8601 here as fixing date
> >values in Calc can be painful (but formatting is easy with Ctrl-1). Then
> >CSV import to slurp it into Calc, delete unwanted columns, and copy and
> >paste into the target sheet.
> 
> The nice thing for me is that when you import a CSV file,
> LibreOffice Calc sizes each column according to the width of the
> data.  Unlike Excel, you don't have to manually invoke the
> hilariously-titled "auto-format" feature to set the column widths to
> something reasonable.

I was unaware that in Excel you couldn't use the usual method which
I gave (for heights rather than widths, but it's the same) in
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/01/msg00264.html
and is used by both gnumeric and calc.

> Speaking of ISO 8601, I'm currently in the process of converting all
> our systems to use it in place of other date formats such as
> /mm/dd. Excel is quite adamant about converting anything that
> looks remotely like a date into mm/dd/ format, but ISO 8601 is
> apparently beyond what its feeble mind can handle, and Excel leaves
> it alone.

But used as an entry format for dates and times, doesn't that mean
you're entering strings, which then can't be used in calculations?

For me, the problem with ISO 8601 as a display format is losing the
month names, so I use formats like -mmm-dd hh:mm for displaying
columns containing timestamps. With CSV export, gnumeric turns such
dates into /mm/dd which can be reimported elsewhere.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Debian v.9.2.1 DVDs - how long are they good for?

[Hans]

Oh, this one you misunderstood. I just wantes to mention, that you can just 
burn the new iso on the dvd you read of before. So there is no need to buy a 
new one for every update of the installation dvd. Just overburn it.
Saves money.

After that you can safely delete the iso (I do so, as it is not needed any 
more). Of course, you can save the iso and overwrite it. Saves time. 

> We only disagree about this statement of yours:
> > > > when they are read/
> > > > writable, then he can easyly update them by using the famous
> > > > "jigdo-lite".
>  
> Have a nice day :)
> 
> Thomas

I love jigdo-lite. :)

Cheers

Hans 

Re: Simple spreadsheet program.

[David Wright]

On Wed 14 Mar 2018 at 18:46:46 (+1100), Erik Christiansen wrote:
> On 13.03.18 10:48, David Wright wrote:
> > On Tue 13 Mar 2018 at 21:31:00 (+1100), Erik Christiansen wrote:
> > > Too true. After a couple of hours of failing to get any GUI drawing
> > > package, not least LibreOffice, to do anything useful, I used Vim to
> > > textually produce the 8 drawings for my house; plan, elevations &
> > > sections, and site plan. It took about 800 lines of Postscript, and I
> > > didn't have to crack the inscrutable secrets of an obstructive GUI
> > > interface.
> > 
> > OTOH the results of your work were highly scrutable?
> 
> Adjectives describe nouns, in the quoted text that is "interface secrets".
> The quoted text did not refer to output/results.
> The quote of my function to draw a door in a floorplan shows my text
> input, not output/results.

That's just playing with words. As far as we on this list are
concerned, your contribution to the thread was a process: editing
PostScript source text with vim. The work that you put into this
process/interface/call it what you will, was a lengthy session
of learning the PostScript language. That has to be costed in,
just as learning about snap-to-grid has to be.

> The result of conversion of the postscript to pdf is a suite of drawings
> when displayed with e.g. xpdf. (Scrutable even to local government
> officials, at considerable cost saving compared to using an architect.)

The marks on the paper were not under discussion, neither as a
technical drawing nor as an architectural design, but only the
operations to produce them.

> But there is perhaps an unstated point - that the postscript language
> (the interface) is not equally scrutable for all.

That's why I quoted it, so people could judge for themselves. It's
the one part of your process that can be clearly put in a posting.
This source code has to be mastered.

> I found it infinitely
> easier to learn a fully discoverable textual language than how to crank
> a mouse engine in mysterious ways.

One would expect that of someone who sees using a mouse as fighting it.

But here we have no way of knowing how the OP views using a mouse
(which for most spreadsheet operations plays a minor role):
whether it makes things easier or speedier, or is best avoided.
For most people, there's a balance; they use both mouse and keyboard
as they feel is appropriate for each action.

All that said, the thrust of my post was: everyone should have some
sort of acquaintance with spreadsheets by the time they leave school.
Vim key bindings—perhaps not. PostScript—probably not.

Cheers,
David.

Re: update bios from debian

[SDA]

On Thu, Mar 08, 2018 at 03:38:58PM +0100, Sven Hoexter wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 07, 2018 at 09:22:06PM -0800, Don Armstrong wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> > sudo apt install grub-imageboot;
> > sudo cp 7wuj43uc.iso /boot/images;
> > sudo update-grub2;
> > 
> > then reboot, and select the right cd image in your grub menu.
> 
> That's a nice approach.
> Added it to https://wiki.debian.org/Firmware/Updates which already collects a 
> few
> other ways on how you can handle BIOS/EFI/Firmware updates.
> 
> Sven
>
Great information, thanks Don & Sven! 

Firefox messages

[John]

Every time I run firefox on Debian (currently Jessie) I get 7
messages
(firefox-esr:6975): GLib-GObject-CRITICAL **: g_object_unref: assertion 
'object->ref_count > 0' failed

(firefox-esr:6975): GLib-GObject-CRITICAL **: g_object_ref: assertion 
'object->ref_count > 0' failed

(firefox-esr:6975): GLib-GObject-CRITICAL **: g_object_unref: assertion 
'object->ref_count > 0' failed

(/usr/lib/firefox-esr/plugin-container:7023): GLib-GObject-CRITICAL **: 
g_object_ref: assertion 'object->ref_count > 0' failed

(/usr/lib/firefox-esr/plugin-container:7023): GLib-GObject-CRITICAL **: 
g_object_unref: assertion 'object->ref_count > 0' failed

(/usr/lib/firefox-esr/plugin-container:7023): GLib-GObject-CRITICAL **: 
g_object_ref: assertion 'object->ref_count > 0' failed

(/usr/lib/firefox-esr/plugin-container:7023): GLib-GObject-CRITICAL **: 
g_object_unref: assertion 'object->ref_count > 0' failed

Does not seem to affect the browser's actions but it is annoying and
ugly.  Why do I get this?  What can I do about it?

==John ffitch

Re: No sound in Firefox

[Pierre Frenkiel]

On Mon, 20 Mar 2017, Marc Shapiro wrote:

I think that I'll keep my copy of Firefox v51.0.1 around for a while, until I 
am sure that I don't need to revert to it.


 I reopen this thread, as there are news issues with versions 58 and 59:
 with V58 + pulseaudio: no sound, no message
 with V59 + pulseaudio: no sound, ffx asks to install pulseaudio!
 This is for a normal user. Curiously, with the root account,
 the sound works perfectly (I already saw that behaviour some time ago)
 So, instead of "firefox", I run "sudo /usr/bin/firefox"

best regards,
--
Pierre Frenkiel

Re: Firefox messages

[The Wanderer]

On 2018-03-14 at 14:59, John wrote:

> Every time I run firefox on Debian (currently Jessie) I get 7
> messages
> (firefox-esr:6975): GLib-GObject-CRITICAL **: g_object_unref: assertion 
> 'object->ref_count > 0' failed
> 
> (firefox-esr:6975): GLib-GObject-CRITICAL **: g_object_ref: assertion 
> 'object->ref_count > 0' failed
> 
> (firefox-esr:6975): GLib-GObject-CRITICAL **: g_object_unref: assertion 
> 'object->ref_count > 0' failed
> 
> (/usr/lib/firefox-esr/plugin-container:7023): GLib-GObject-CRITICAL **: 
> g_object_ref: assertion 'object->ref_count > 0' failed
> 
> (/usr/lib/firefox-esr/plugin-container:7023): GLib-GObject-CRITICAL **: 
> g_object_unref: assertion 'object->ref_count > 0' failed
> 
> (/usr/lib/firefox-esr/plugin-container:7023): GLib-GObject-CRITICAL **: 
> g_object_ref: assertion 'object->ref_count > 0' failed
> 
> (/usr/lib/firefox-esr/plugin-container:7023): GLib-GObject-CRITICAL **: 
> g_object_unref: assertion 'object->ref_count > 0' failed
> 
> Does not seem to affect the browser's actions but it is annoying and
> ugly.  Why do I get this?

As I understand matters, these are GLib messages (I think that's
something related to GTK, the graphical toolkit used by most-if-not-all
Linux versions of Firefox), and they happen because Firefox uses the
GLib API in what the current version of GLib considers to be a partly
incorrect - or at least potentially unsafe - way.

Basically, these are debugging messages, which for some reason get
printed - by the library, if I understand things right! - even in
production builds.

I get similar messages from Chromium, IIRC, since I happen to launch
that from an xterm by habit.

> What can I do about it?

To the best of my awareness, you have three options, in descending order
of "theoretically ideal":

1. Patch Firefox to do what these APIs consider to be the right thing,
and if possible, get that patch accepted into upstream Firefox.

2. Launch Firefox from a menu item or "desktop shortcut" or other
non-terminal-based method. (This won't prevent the messages from
occurring, but they won't get printed anywhere you'll see them.)

3. Redirect stderr when launching Firefox, so that these errors get
dumped somewhere you don't have to look at them.

(Technically you could also patch GLib to be less verbose about this,
but I doubt you'd get that accepted upstream, and it'd probably be more
difficult than fixing Firefox; it might also be the wrong thing to do,
if there ever are any cases where these messages ever are actually
legitimate.)

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Debian v.9.2.1 DVDs - how long are they good for?

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Hans wrote:
> I just wantes to mention, that you can just 
> burn the new iso on the dvd you read of before.

Now we are in sync.


> I love jigdo-lite. :)

It needs some love to adapt to modern times. 

  https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=887837
  "jigdo-lite: Final statement about verified ISO is too affirmative"

  https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=887831
  "jigdo-file: Jigdo .template file and resulting ISO are only verified by MD5"

Improvement of verification depends on

  https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=887830
  "debian-cd: *.jigdo files should be listed in the *SUMS files"
  (For some reason the progress made is not reflected in fresh 9.4 ISOs:
https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-dvd/SHA512SUMS
  )

I could also still need proof readers, testers, and MS/Mac experience with
  https://wiki.debian.org/JigdoOnLive
(where i need to remove the prediction that 9.4 will have checksums for
 .jigdo and .template files. G.)


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: Debian v.9.2.1 DVDs - how long are they good for?

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

sorry, i gave the wrong URL for the checksum files which should contain
sums for .jigdo and .template but do not.
A correct URL would be e.g.

  https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/jigdo-bd/SHA512SUMS

(Classical copy+paste error. Of course
  https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-dvd/
 has no .jigdo files and thus needs no checksum entries.)


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Unstable Wayland in Debian Testing

[慕 冬亮]

Dear all,

Debian Testing for now has a very unstable wayland. I have encountered 
dozens of crashes about current Wayland during those months.

When I connect or disconnect an external screen monitor, usb driver, or 
even one phone, the desktop environment could crash. And then I login 
and found one "core" file appearing in the home directory :( . It drives 
me crazy and I am very frustrated with Debian Testing. What's wrong with 
Wayland desktop environment in Debian Testing?

Moreover, I submit one bug report 
(https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=881893) about my 
crashes. But I don't get any response about this thread.


-- 

My best regards to you.

  No System Is Safe!
  Dongliang Mu

Re: No sound in Firefox

[Pierre Frenkiel]

On Wed, 14 Mar 2018, Abdullah Ramazanoglu wrote:


Wouldn't it render your system root-vulnerable to some malignant active
content (JS)?


  of course, but I try to avoid URLs I don't know.

best regards,
--
Pierre Frenkiel

Re: Finding image file underlying an icon on Mate desktop

[Liam O'Toole]

On 2018-03-14, Richard Owlett  wrote:
> Several months ago I needed a fully custom desktop icon for a shortcut.
> I had no trouble creating an appropriate png file and having it display.
> Now I need a similar icon. I went to the properties of the shortcut 
> expecting to be able to discover the location of the image used.
>
> I could not. Clicking on the icon's image allows replacing it but no 
> apparent way to discover its location.
>
> Is there a way?
> [for current application creating a new icon will be simple]
> [finding the old icon would be convenient]
>
> TIA
>

Examine the .desktop file in your ~/Desktop directory. Look for a line
beginning with "Icon".

Re: quick scripting 'is /P/Q mounted'

[Mark Fletcher]

On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 03:56:00PM -0400, The Wanderer wrote:
> On 2018-03-13 at 15:39, Joe wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 14:49:56 +0100  wrote:
> 
> That test can be spoofed, however, by the creation of a directory with
> the same name (and/or other characteristics) under the mount point while
> the mount is not active.
> 

Yes, but in most use cases one would not be worried about malicious 
actions, you are trying to protect against cock-ups.

> Even if you don't think anything malicious is ever going to try to spoof
> this in whatever case is at hand, can you be sure no script (or, for
> that matter, user) will ever attempt to create that directory under the
> mistaken impression that the mount is active?
> 

Yeah, that's a fair point though.

Mark

Re: Debian on flash a store.

[David Christensen]

On 03/14/18 00:28, Richard Hector wrote:

On 14/03/18 15:35, David Christensen wrote:

On 03/13/18 17:00, Richard Hector wrote:

Apologies for the diversion - does anyone know if there are USB flash
drives that _are_ built for full-time use, as a system disk?

I've got some old thin clients that could do with storage upgrades that
are a bit easier to come by than the weird (PATA?) flash modules they
come with. Obviously I could just hook up an external USB ssd, but I'd
like to keep the small form factor if I can - then they can go inside
the case.


https://duckduckgo.com/?q=disk+on+module&t=ffsb&ia=web


http://www.memorydepot.com/ssd_diskonmodule.html


Interesting, thanks - it appears that I could replace the existing
module after all - and possibly add a SATA one, depending on which way
round they are. I'm not entirely sure about the power situation though -
there seem to be multiple ways of getting power through the data port;
are they all backwards compatible? Does my system need to support it
explicitly, or will any old sata port work?

I see there are USB DOMs as well, but most/many of them want an internal
header rather than a type A socket, which is all I have. And some of
them say they're USB 3, backward compatible with USB 2 ... I'm not sure
which of my ports are what standard; some of them may even be 1 ...

Almost none of these seem to be available locally in New Zealand though,
so I'd have to import something, which is a bit more of a hassle.


There are many disk-on-module form (DOM) factors -- some are generic/ 
standard form factors and others are vendor/ model specific.  If your 
thin clients already have PATA DOM's, look up the make/ model and 
purchase compatible replacement/ upgrade parts.



I have never seen a USB 1 port.  Most pre-USB 2.0 stuff is USB 1.1.


I ran SanDisk Ultra Fit USB 3.0 16 GB flash drives as poor-man's SSD 
system drives for several years, connected to motherboard type A USB 
3.0, 2.0, and 1.1 ports.  I booted the Debian Installer on CD and 
installed to the USB drive just like any other drive.  Reads were 
noticeably faster than HDD's, but moderate to heavy writes caused GUI 
desktops to become choppy.  I still keep two for diagnostic and rescue 
use -- one with Debian i386 and the other with Debian amd64.  I bought 
them from Amazon, but some retailers might carry them.



David

Re: Finding image file underlying an icon on Mate desktop

[Frank M]

On 03/14/2018 06:30 PM, Liam O'Toole wrote:

On 2018-03-14, Richard Owlett  wrote:

Several months ago I needed a fully custom desktop icon for a shortcut.
I had no trouble creating an appropriate png file and having it display.
Now I need a similar icon. I went to the properties of the shortcut
expecting to be able to discover the location of the image used.

I could not. Clicking on the icon's image allows replacing it but no
apparent way to discover its location.

Is there a way?
[for current application creating a new icon will be simple]
[finding the old icon would be convenient]

TIA


Examine the .desktop file in your ~/Desktop directory. Look for a line
beginning with "Icon".




   Most of them just have the name of the icon with no path.

   Why doesn't the OP just do a locate  ?

Re: Unstable Wayland in Debian Testing

[Roberto C . Sánchez]

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 06:22:03PM +, 慕 冬亮 wrote:
> Dear all,
> 
> Debian Testing for now has a very unstable wayland. I have encountered 
> dozens of crashes about current Wayland during those months.
> 
> When I connect or disconnect an external screen monitor, usb driver, or 
> even one phone, the desktop environment could crash. And then I login 
> and found one "core" file appearing in the home directory :( . It drives 
> me crazy and I am very frustrated with Debian Testing. What's wrong with 
> Wayland desktop environment in Debian Testing?
> 
> Moreover, I submit one bug report 
> (https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=881893) about my 
> crashes. But I don't get any response about this thread.

I am not sure your purpose in including the Debian Security team as they
are not the maintainers for xorg-server.

In any event, the xorg-server source package (from which the xwayland
package is built) has more than 250 outstanding bugs:
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?src=xorg-server

It could just be that the maintainers are not able to respond to every
bug report in a timely manner.

Regards,

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sánchez

Re: Finding image file underlying an icon on Mate desktop

[Richard Owlett]

On 03/14/2018 05:30 PM, Liam O'Toole wrote:

On 2018-03-14, Richard Owlett  wrote:

Several months ago I needed a fully custom desktop icon for a shortcut.
I had no trouble creating an appropriate png file and having it display.
Now I need a similar icon. I went to the properties of the shortcut
expecting to be able to discover the location of the image used.

I could not. Clicking on the icon's image allows replacing it but no
apparent way to discover its location.

Is there a way?
[for current application creating a new icon will be simple]
[finding the old icon would be convenient]

TIA



Examine the .desktop file in your ~/Desktop directory. Look for a line
beginning with "Icon".




I have *NO*  .desktop  under /home/richard/Desktop

Re: Finding image file underlying an icon on Mate desktop

[Richard Owlett]

On 03/14/2018 07:30 PM, Frank M wrote:



On 03/14/2018 06:30 PM, Liam O'Toole wrote:

On 2018-03-14, Richard Owlett  wrote:

Several months ago I needed a fully custom desktop icon for a shortcut.
I had no trouble creating an appropriate png file and having it display.
Now I need a similar icon. I went to the properties of the shortcut
expecting to be able to discover the location of the image used.

I could not. Clicking on the icon's image allows replacing it but no
apparent way to discover its location.

Is there a way?
[for current application creating a new icon will be simple]
[finding the old icon would be convenient]

TIA


Examine the .desktop file in your ~/Desktop directory. Look for a line
beginning with "Icon".




    Most of them just have the name of the icon with no path.

    Why doesn't the OP just do a locate  ?


I *AM* OP.
If I knew ""   . ;/

I have an icon on my desktop.
I know *ABSOLUTELY NOTHING* about it

except my visual description

I suspect here is *NO* way to answer my question.

Re: Finding image file underlying an icon on Mate desktop

[David Wright]

On Wed 14 Mar 2018 at 20:35:15 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 03/14/2018 05:30 PM, Liam O'Toole wrote:
> >On 2018-03-14, Richard Owlett  wrote:
> >>Several months ago I needed a fully custom desktop icon for a shortcut.
> >>I had no trouble creating an appropriate png file and having it display.
> >>Now I need a similar icon. I went to the properties of the shortcut
> >>expecting to be able to discover the location of the image used.
> >>
> >>I could not. Clicking on the icon's image allows replacing it but no
> >>apparent way to discover its location.
> >>
> >>Is there a way?
> >>[for current application creating a new icon will be simple]
> >>[finding the old icon would be convenient]
> >>
> >>TIA
> >>
> >
> >Examine the .desktop file in your ~/Desktop directory. Look for a line
> >beginning with "Icon".
> >
> >
> 
> I have *NO*  .desktop  under /home/richard/Desktop

Presumably because the configuration file is called something else.
My guess is ~/Desktop/.mate but perhaps if we all have a guess in
turn, somebody will stumble on the correct name and win a small prize.
OTOH you could look for yourself. No googling: that's cheating.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Help needed with home network configuration

[David Wright]

On Fri 09 Mar 2018 at 12:31:35 (-0500), Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Friday 09 March 2018 10:18:23 Reco wrote:
> 
> > Hi.
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 09, 2018 at 04:30:53PM +0200, Johann Spies wrote:
> > > For many years I have used my desktp as a network/firewall server
> > > with two interfaces one facing the internet (through ADSL) and the
> > > other the local network.
> > >
> > > Now I have a fibre connection and for a month both connections will
> > > be available in parallel.
> > >
> > > I have decided to use my Raspberry Pi3 as the firewall/network
> > > server in future but have after many hours failed to do so
> > > successfully.
> >
> > A suboptimal idea IMO. These Broadcom chipsets are only good for video
> > output, their 100Mbps "Ethernet" is actually hardwired to USB, and
> > their WiFi is a PITA (I used Raspberry Pi3 as WiFi AP for half a year.
> > Never again). They make good SPI programmers though.
> >
> > If you need a good Debian-friendly router, I suggest buying Linksys
> > ACM 1200, 1900 or 3200.
> 
> I will also highly recommend the higher end Buffalo's. I have a $70 mail 
> order Netfinity, now quite a few years old, reprogrammed with the real 
> dd-wrt. It has bounced every attack now for around 8 years. And I mean 
> every. I do not have its radio enabled unless my boys are on site with 
> their smartphones. And its not bridged to my local net anyway, only to 
> the internet.

When you reprogram routers with dd-wrt, does that allow it to do, say,
wired bridging even though the manufacturer's formware doesn't allow
for that? Or is wired bridging something that requires certain
hardware inside the box? What's your bridging topology? I though you
might have an article on your website… :)

Cheers,
David.

Re: Finding image file underlying an icon on Mate desktop

[David Wright]

On Wed 14 Mar 2018 at 20:42:04 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 03/14/2018 07:30 PM, Frank M wrote:
> >
> >
> >On 03/14/2018 06:30 PM, Liam O'Toole wrote:
> >>On 2018-03-14, Richard Owlett  wrote:
> >>>Several months ago I needed a fully custom desktop icon for a shortcut.
> >>>I had no trouble creating an appropriate png file and having it display.
> >>>Now I need a similar icon. I went to the properties of the shortcut
> >>>expecting to be able to discover the location of the image used.
> >>>
> >>>I could not. Clicking on the icon's image allows replacing it but no
> >>>apparent way to discover its location.
> >>>
> >>>Is there a way?
> >>>[for current application creating a new icon will be simple]
> >>>[finding the old icon would be convenient]
> >>>
> >>>TIA
> >>>
> >>Examine the .desktop file in your ~/Desktop directory. Look for a line
> >>beginning with "Icon".
> >>
> >
> >
> >    Most of them just have the name of the icon with no path.
> >
> >    Why doesn't the OP just do a locate  ?
> 
> I *AM* OP.
> If I knew ""   . ;/
> 
> I have an icon on my desktop.
> I know *ABSOLUTELY NOTHING* about it
> 
> except my visual description
> 
> I suspect here is *NO* way to answer my question.

I thought you knew it was a PNG.

In which case,

$ find ~ -name \*png | sort | less

I added the sort as this may group files somewhat. There'll presumably
be swathes of pictures in directories that you know aren't involved.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Debian on flash a store.

[Richard Hector]

On 15/03/18 13:11, David Christensen wrote:
> On 03/14/18 00:28, Richard Hector wrote:
>> On 14/03/18 15:35, David Christensen wrote:
>>> On 03/13/18 17:00, Richard Hector wrote:
 Apologies for the diversion - does anyone know if there are USB flash
 drives that _are_ built for full-time use, as a system disk?

 I've got some old thin clients that could do with storage upgrades that
 are a bit easier to come by than the weird (PATA?) flash modules they
 come with. Obviously I could just hook up an external USB ssd, but I'd
 like to keep the small form factor if I can - then they can go inside
 the case.
>>>
>>> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=disk+on+module&t=ffsb&ia=web
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.memorydepot.com/ssd_diskonmodule.html
>>
>> Interesting, thanks - it appears that I could replace the existing
>> module after all - and possibly add a SATA one, depending on which way
>> round they are. I'm not entirely sure about the power situation though -
>> there seem to be multiple ways of getting power through the data port;
>> are they all backwards compatible? Does my system need to support it
>> explicitly, or will any old sata port work?
>>
>> I see there are USB DOMs as well, but most/many of them want an internal
>> header rather than a type A socket, which is all I have. And some of
>> them say they're USB 3, backward compatible with USB 2 ... I'm not sure
>> which of my ports are what standard; some of them may even be 1 ...
>>
>> Almost none of these seem to be available locally in New Zealand though,
>> so I'd have to import something, which is a bit more of a hassle.
> 
> There are many disk-on-module form (DOM) factors -- some are generic/
> standard form factors and others are vendor/ model specific.  If your
> thin clients already have PATA DOM's, look up the make/ model and
> purchase compatible replacement/ upgrade parts.
> 
> 
> I have never seen a USB 1 port.  Most pre-USB 2.0 stuff is USB 1.1.

Fair call - I should have said 1.x or something. :-)

> I ran SanDisk Ultra Fit USB 3.0 16 GB flash drives as poor-man's SSD
> system drives for several years, connected to motherboard type A USB
> 3.0, 2.0, and 1.1 ports.  I booted the Debian Installer on CD and
> installed to the USB drive just like any other drive.  Reads were
> noticeably faster than HDD's, but moderate to heavy writes caused GUI
> desktops to become choppy.  I still keep two for diagnostic and rescue
> use -- one with Debian i386 and the other with Debian amd64.  I bought
> them from Amazon, but some retailers might carry them.

Ordinary usb flash drives are easy enough to get, and cheap. I should
probably just try those (planning on 2 in raid). I'm not using them for
anything GUI; the one I have running atm is an openvpn endpoint. There
are many Sandisk and other options - I guess my main consideration is
something slim enough that I can fit two in adjacent ports.

Thanks,
Richard




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Re: Debian on flash a store.

[David Christensen]

On 03/14/18 20:17, Richard Hector wrote:

On 15/03/18 13:11, David Christensen wrote:

On 03/14/18 00:28, Richard Hector wrote:

On 14/03/18 15:35, David Christensen wrote:

On 03/13/18 17:00, Richard Hector wrote:

Apologies for the diversion - does anyone know if there are USB flash
drives that _are_ built for full-time use, as a system disk?

I've got some old thin clients that could do with storage upgrades that
are a bit easier to come by than the weird (PATA?) flash modules they
come with. Obviously I could just hook up an external USB ssd, but I'd
like to keep the small form factor if I can - then they can go inside
the case.


https://duckduckgo.com/?q=disk+on+module&t=ffsb&ia=web


http://www.memorydepot.com/ssd_diskonmodule.html


Interesting, thanks - it appears that I could replace the existing
module after all - and possibly add a SATA one, depending on which way
round they are. I'm not entirely sure about the power situation though -
there seem to be multiple ways of getting power through the data port;
are they all backwards compatible? Does my system need to support it
explicitly, or will any old sata port work?

I see there are USB DOMs as well, but most/many of them want an internal
header rather than a type A socket, which is all I have. And some of
them say they're USB 3, backward compatible with USB 2 ... I'm not sure
which of my ports are what standard; some of them may even be 1 ...

Almost none of these seem to be available locally in New Zealand though,
so I'd have to import something, which is a bit more of a hassle.


There are many disk-on-module form (DOM) factors -- some are generic/
standard form factors and others are vendor/ model specific.  If your
thin clients already have PATA DOM's, look up the make/ model and
purchase compatible replacement/ upgrade parts.


I have never seen a USB 1 port.  Most pre-USB 2.0 stuff is USB 1.1.


Fair call - I should have said 1.x or something. :-)


I ran SanDisk Ultra Fit USB 3.0 16 GB flash drives as poor-man's SSD
system drives for several years, connected to motherboard type A USB
3.0, 2.0, and 1.1 ports.  I booted the Debian Installer on CD and
installed to the USB drive just like any other drive.  Reads were
noticeably faster than HDD's, but moderate to heavy writes caused GUI
desktops to become choppy.  I still keep two for diagnostic and rescue
use -- one with Debian i386 and the other with Debian amd64.  I bought
them from Amazon, but some retailers might carry them.


Ordinary usb flash drives are easy enough to get, and cheap. I should
probably just try those (planning on 2 in raid). I'm not using them for
anything GUI; the one I have running atm is an openvpn endpoint. There
are many Sandisk and other options - I guess my main consideration is
something slim enough that I can fit two in adjacent ports.


The SanDisk Ultra Fits are very compact.  Two will fit in the stacked 
dual USB port connectors found on my Intel motherboards, or in the 
side-by-side ports on my Dell laptop.  They stick out only about 1/4". 
If anything, it can be hard to grab when connected to a motherboard with 
several other things connected.



I also thought about two USB flash drives and RAID:

1.  Instead of RAID0, get a PATA or SATA SSD (or DOM).  Used drives can 
be found on eBay for cheap, especially SATA I or II.


2.  Instead of RAID1, use a checksumming file system (btrfs), take 
images periodically, put key configuration files into a version control 
system, and backup data daily.  This is what I do for all my system drives.



That said, why do you have storage in a thin client?  I thought the idea 
is to boot the clients over the network, run from RAM, and have the 
server do most of the work (?).



David

Re: Help needed with home network configuration

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 14 March 2018 22:24:26 David Wright wrote:

> On Fri 09 Mar 2018 at 12:31:35 (-0500), Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Friday 09 March 2018 10:18:23 Reco wrote:
> > >   Hi.
> > >
> > > On Fri, Mar 09, 2018 at 04:30:53PM +0200, Johann Spies wrote:
> > > > For many years I have used my desktp as a network/firewall
> > > > server with two interfaces one facing the internet (through
> > > > ADSL) and the other the local network.
> > > >
> > > > Now I have a fibre connection and for a month both connections
> > > > will be available in parallel.
> > > >
> > > > I have decided to use my Raspberry Pi3 as the firewall/network
> > > > server in future but have after many hours failed to do so
> > > > successfully.
> > >
> > > A suboptimal idea IMO. These Broadcom chipsets are only good for
> > > video output, their 100Mbps "Ethernet" is actually hardwired to
> > > USB, and their WiFi is a PITA (I used Raspberry Pi3 as WiFi AP for
> > > half a year. Never again). They make good SPI programmers though.
> > >
> > > If you need a good Debian-friendly router, I suggest buying
> > > Linksys ACM 1200, 1900 or 3200.
> >
> > I will also highly recommend the higher end Buffalo's. I have a $70
> > mail order Netfinity, now quite a few years old, reprogrammed with
> > the real dd-wrt. It has bounced every attack now for around 8 years.
> > And I mean every. I do not have its radio enabled unless my boys are
> > on site with their smartphones. And its not bridged to my local net
> > anyway, only to the internet.
>
> When you reprogram routers with dd-wrt, does that allow it to do, say,
> wired bridging even though the manufacturer's formware doesn't allow
> for that? Or is wired bridging something that requires certain
> hardware inside the box? What's your bridging topology? I though you
> might have an article on your website… :)

With dd-wrt, port forwarding with NAT can be done, a very limited 
bridging, which is how you see my web site. Its actually this machine.

As for the wireless, I only have it bridged to the WAN side of the 
network, but I'm pretty sure it can be bridged in either or both 
directions. So this machine, nor any of the others on my home net are  
not visible to the wireless, only the internet can be used. I don't 
recall how I do it ATM, because 99% of the time the radio is disabled. 
If I enable it, one of the neighbors auto connects and can use 80 GB a 
month w/o giving me a clue unless I am logged into the router annd see 
the connection lease. So I only enable the radio when my boys are in 
town.  Sorry I can't be more specific but its been yonks since I've 
programmed it.

> Cheers,
> David.



-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Debian on flash a store.

[Richard Hector]

On 15/03/18 18:01, David Christensen wrote:
> That said, why do you have storage in a thin client?  I thought the idea
> is to boot the clients over the network, run from RAM, and have the
> server do most of the work (?).

They were intended as thin clients - I'm not using them as such. I just
use them as cheap machines with mimimal power consumption, that I can
leave running even when more powerful machines are shut down. My openvpn
endpoint is one such case (it also runs a DNS server).

I don't need much storage, but I want it to be fairly reliable, and be
sure I can replace it quickly if required. Importing a specialist DOM
from overseas is not quick; buying a usb stick (from the supermarket or
service station if need be) is :-)

These things only cost me NZ$20 each (for 5) - and an added bonus is
that the old atom (N280) cpu is not vulnerable to meltdown :-)

Richard



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